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Author Topic: 20CN and 21 CN ADSL1  (Read 5380 times)

SE

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20CN and 21 CN ADSL1
« on: August 21, 2013, 07:34:34 PM »

First of all, Hi to you all

I was told by two engineers after two visits that my line is good at snM 10, LA 30

and that the only way to fix my slow ADSL1 speed was a lift n shift to ADSL2+

my line is 8128 7.04Mbps throughput bRas 7.15 when the exchange is green.
when it's amber, same, but throughput is as low as 0.2-4.0Mbps

Exchange went 21CN in 2006

This is what my exchange info says............

"20CN virtual paths: Amber

BT is reporting that some of the 20CN virtual paths at this exchange are not operating within BT Wholesale's planning guidance, although they are still operating within the product specification.

At busy times, your ADSL connection may operate at a reduced speed, although not all customers on your exchange may be affected. You should only contact support if there is no current ETA date set.

The ETA fix time is: Not provided by BT

Record last updated: 16 Aug 13

Historical information for this exchange:

Status Date
green 02 Aug 13   
amber 12 Jul 13   
amber 14 Jun 13   
amber 31 May 13   
amber 24 May 13"


 For a long time the BT infinity checker said ADSL2+ 17 and Fibre 47.8
up until yesterday

Can 20CN hardware run at the same time as 21CN hardware?
because I've just moved from PO isp ADSL1 BTW to PN ADSL2+ BTW (they put me on ADSL1 in error and will up me after turn on)

what are the 20CN virtual paths at this exchange, and will I get a lift n shift, or is the fault moving with me?

Also the slow speed has messed up the btw checkers database
http://www.imagebam.com/image/733ee4271428146
« Last Edit: August 21, 2013, 07:40:12 PM by SE »
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kitz

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Re: 20CN and 21 CN ADSL1
« Reply #1 on: August 22, 2013, 08:29:20 PM »

afaik the updates were on an exchange basis, but the ISP also has to do some upgrading too on their network and offer the adsl2+ products.
The two products do have an overlap period as some ISPs do still provision on 20CN

I notice you say you are migrating from the PO to Plusnet who use WBC for their 21CN products so you will be moved over to that network which should hopefully see the end of your 20CN congestion issues.  :)
Downtime should be minimal.   If as you say PN are migrating you on adsl1 -> adsl1 then this will likely occur overnight as its a remote change and shoudnt require any physical changes.    The adsl1 -> adsl2+ often also occurs overnight, particularly when the ISP is doing bulk migrations..  however there may the odd instance where a user may be on an old DSLAM and a physical shift may have to be made to a 21CN MSAN, if so normally done in the morning and should only take 10 mins, 30 at most.


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SE

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Re: 20CN and 21 CN ADSL1
« Reply #2 on: August 23, 2013, 06:09:30 PM »

Hi sorry didn't know I got a reply  ???

I have now been told after months of problems that my line speed is a HOT VP

 HOT VP = HOT VIRTUAL PATH

 And that I am hard-wired to a DSLAM/MSAN port in the local exchange, which is mapped to a particular VP on the backhaul.

 BT will not move me unless forced

 DO PN my new isp have the power to get this done?

 because the exchange told my old isp no they will not do anything to help
 as I will be on the same port and VP on the backhaul, moving to PN may not help resolve my fault


 also if I went fibre, would that be a fully new VP on the backhaul and a new dslam port too?

 line move from PO btw tp PN btw Tue 27th

So what can I do and who do I talk to?

I hope the 21cn adsl2+ works this out  :)

I hope you can make sense out of this lol

EDIT: PN lev1 told me tonight that even going fibre might not help as some of it is the same hardware
I hope this is wrong
« Last Edit: August 23, 2013, 08:14:02 PM by SE »
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kitz

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Re: 20CN and 21 CN ADSL1
« Reply #3 on: August 24, 2013, 11:16:50 AM »

Quote
because I've just moved from PO isp ADSL1 BTW to PN ADSL2+ BTW (they put me on ADSL1 in error and will up me after turn on)

From your IP it looks like you are still with the PostOffice, as thats not a Plusnet IP.
AFAIK atm the PO use 20CN although there is talk of them moving some of their customers over to the TT network.

Your BTw speed test indicates that you are on 20CN.  Plusnet use 21CN where its available.
If you are on a hot VP, then you are correct that the ISP cant get you moved for this reason alone.

If you are on ADSL1, then its not unknown to migrate to the new (BTw based) ISP as ADSL1 and them to later put in a request for ADSL2+ once the migration has occurred.   

As mentioned in my post above ADSL1 -> ADSL1 migration only requires a remote flick of a switch which normally happens during the wee small hours requiring no down time. 20CN -> 21CN requires a physical move and often involves a small amount of downtime when your line is rewired to the 21CN MSAN.

20CN & 21CN are different backhaul technology.   20CN was notorious for hot VPs because the VPs have smaller bandwidth chunks, 21CN has fatter pipes (Super VPs) and although its no guarantee of not being congested, its not as frequently heard. 

This is the 21CN backhaul  and
This is what an old 20CN backhaul looks like


>> if I went fibre, would that be a fully new VP on the backhaul and a new dslam port too?

With fibre the DSLAM is in the FTTC green cab...  The backhaul from the exchange is 21CN.
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SE

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Re: 20CN and 21 CN ADSL1
« Reply #4 on: August 24, 2013, 11:56:09 AM »

KK thank you for making it so I can understand  :)

The move date is this tue, so lets hope I get my old speed+ back and a stable line too

Before the 20cn problems, my ADSL1 8128 was rock at 7.4Mbits so we could watch 2 1080p videos without buffering
or 2 game pcs and 1 1080p video.

and as the po never enforced the FUP, I had reason to move.

But as you said, the PO is going TT on the 2nd of Sep (closed on 1st to move CS to capita) and I wanted to stay BTw as TT didn't look as fast locally, and wanted the option of fibre later.

I will have to ask two more questions...........

1) Do you agree with sport and TV on boxes over a newish fibre network, or do you think that's making it harder for PC's doing their thing?.

2)Why Kits, do you keep Cats?  ;D

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kitz

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Re: 20CN and 21 CN ADSL1
« Reply #5 on: August 26, 2013, 07:41:19 PM »

>> The move date is this tue,

Good luck.  Remember though that if you are migrating over to PN as adsl1->adsl1, it could take up to another 7-10 days for the adsl->adsl2+ request to go though because it needs an engineer at the exchange to physically move your connection over to the 21CN equipment.

>> Do you agree with sport and TV on boxes over a newish fibre network,

hahaha..  thats a whole new debate in itself..   Was adsl ever designed to cope with so much streaming traffic..  probably not.  Its not something that the 20CN network could cope with because bandwidth usage is a major expense for the ISPs.   However things change and I only see on-demand tv/streaming becoming more common.

>> Why Kits

Been known as kitz for many many years - way before broadband.

>>  do you keep Cats

Had cats all my life..  currently have 2 very beautiful Birmans (yep biased) :D



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SE

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Re: 20CN and 21 CN ADSL1
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2013, 05:55:09 PM »

Hi
Well i'm on PN now and ADSL1 as they said
But when they tried to move me to ADSL2+, telling me it would take 24hrs
they got a reply from BTw saying it would take 5 more working days :(

So it looks like they put me on ADSL1 20cn and not ADSL1 21cn and took over a week to keep me on the same hardware  ???
PN told me they hope they will move me, but as the exchange refused to move me on the old isp using a lift and shift, they are not 100% sure

To me this all seems nuts lol  :D

Any idea what I can do if the exchange says no, and why would they do that?

I won't tell you if my ADSL1 speed has gone back to over 6.5Mb as it's just about 48hrs since I logged on the the isp
and I don't want to jinx it  ;)
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kitz

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Re: 20CN and 21 CN ADSL1
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2013, 06:52:36 PM »

>> they got a reply from BTw saying it would take 5 more working days

As expected and why I said 7-10 days.  Lead time is normally one week, but may take longer at some smaller exchanges.

>> it looks like they put me on ADSL1 20cn and not ADSL1 21cn and took over a week to keep me on the same hardware

Again normal Im afraid, its BTws lead time for most changes that involve migration, lift & shift to another dslam/msan.

>> but as the exchange refused to move me on the old isp using a lift and shift, they are not 100% sure

Not certain, but as mentioned above smaller exchanges may not have a resident frames engineer and they have to come from elsewhere.
Sometimes it can be done on the same day, sometimes it cant.
It may be something to do with the fact that the PO dont use 21CN.   Normally during (Btw based) migration theres a short overlap where you can connect to either ISP because BTw use something called SSB (Service Selection Barring) at the RAS..  this is the remote change I told you about earlier.
So it looks like theyve done the migration bit and now just waiting for an engineer to go into the exchange and move you on to the new 21CN equipment.

Its really not unusual for migration to have occurred before they upgrade you.   I suppose its better done this way rather than risk the possibility of a longer period without adsl.    If your existing ISP also used 21CN  it probably could have been scheduled better...  I dont know for sure....   but thinking logistically they cant do the upgrade until you are actually with an ISP who uses 21CN.




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SE

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Re: 20CN and 21 CN ADSL1
« Reply #8 on: September 04, 2013, 04:48:18 PM »

well after more mess up
PN didn't do the ADSL2+ order right/lost it/let auto do it. I was told it would be weeks before it was done  :o

But after a call asking them to order ADSL2+ manually it was done within 6hrs....

Even though it sync'd at 12920, the bRas was stuck on 7.15 from ADSL1, so was getting 6.70meg throughput, so got them to up it and they set it to 18meg
EDIT: the profile has dropped to 11.9 Mb


After a restart it's syncing 13560 with a throughput of about 12 meg

I was told by engineers and btw checker (before it messed up)
that it would be about 18meg, so will it sync faster as it's day 1 of the 10 day retrain, or is there no way that the sync rate will move up?

Connection Speed    13560 Kbps    1215 Kbps
Line Attenuation      29.7 dB          16.6 dB
Noise Margin           5.9 dB            6.0 dB

am I going to be stuck on a 12 meg download or could it give me more  :(
« Last Edit: September 04, 2013, 09:23:48 PM by SE »
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kitz

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Re: 20CN and 21 CN ADSL1
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2013, 06:07:57 PM »

>> But after a call asking them to order ADSL2+ manually it was done within 6hrs

Not aware of how it could be done so quickly..  even expedite takes longer than that.   
I suspect that the physical changes had been done and you had been moved on the 21CN platform... and it was more that a configuration change to G.992.5 was needed to complete the process.

It would be interesting to know which date you were actually moved to 21CN..  and I wouldnt be too surprised if it had just been completed that day, but not yet updated in the system.   The isp isnt often told that work has been completed by BT until the next day

Quote
I was told by engineers and btw checker (before it messed up)

Line Attenuation      29.7 dB          16.6 dB


Realistically on a good 30dB line I would expect a sync of around 15Mbps and throughput of around 13Mb.

Based on your current SNR margin of 5.9dB, theres little room to play.
Is that line interleaved?   If so it could be taking up some of your sync speed and why you are nearer 13.5Mbps.



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SE

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Re: 20CN and 21 CN ADSL1
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2013, 06:38:57 PM »

I'll ask about interleaving tonight when I call PN

After I posted, I found out that PN found my old ADSL2+ order from a week ago, and it was that one that kicked in, not the two new ones (one auto, one manual)  :blush:

At the moment I'm only getting 10.5 meg throughput

Would asking for a slight upload cap help with the download speed? (upload sync 1215 Kbps)


Is it possible that it would sync at higher speed say after a router reboot, and is it okay to do that in day 2 of training
« Last Edit: September 05, 2013, 06:41:30 PM by SE »
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kitz

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Re: 20CN and 21 CN ADSL1
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2013, 07:04:27 PM »

Quote
Would asking for a slight upload cap help with the download speed? (upload sync 1215 Kbps)

Unfortunately not on adsl2+..  the upstream channels are at different frequencies than the downstream, so they will be independent and shouldn't interfere with each other.  (Unlike annex-m).

Quote
Is it possible that it would sync at higher speed say after a router reboot,

Based on the stats above no...   your SNRm was 5.9dB so it may be slightly less...  which is why i said  there is no play on that line atm. :(

I would grab a copy of erics DSLstats and start monitoring your SNRm...  there may be certain times of the day when its better than others.

Quote
I'll ask about interleaving tonight when I call PN

No need to phone..  you should be able to check yourself from your line stats.
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/frogstats.php#61





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SE

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Re: 20CN and 21 CN ADSL1
« Reply #12 on: September 07, 2013, 04:43:04 PM »

Got the tools thx for the links  :graduate:

okay I was told in a phone msg that I have HEC errors on the upload
and it might be the new BTw ADSL2+/VDSL2 filtered faceplate or the router

DownStream Connection Speed 13560 Kbps
UpStream Connection Speed 1215 Kbps

Downstream 13560                                     

Upstream 1215

Line Attenuation 29.7 dB down, 16.6 dB up

Noise Margin 4.2 dB down, 5.9 dB up

Would you recommend plugging the old router filter in to the test socket
would this be ok while training?

also could 1.5m phone cable plugged in to the bottom phone port of the faceplate cause HEC errors on the upload?
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kitz

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Re: 20CN and 21 CN ADSL1
« Reply #13 on: September 07, 2013, 08:04:03 PM »

Quote
okay I was told in a phone msg that I have HEC errors on the upload

How many and over what timescale?   Just a few can be ignored.   This is where DSLstats comes into its own for monitoring - particularly your SNRm.

Youve only posted the top part of your stats, we'd need to see the rest of the information which should give a count of CRC/HEC/FEC.
Any count against FEC would indicate that your line was interleaved.
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SE

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Re: 20CN and 21 CN ADSL1
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2013, 09:49:23 PM »

Hi sorry for the late reply

I got fibre

im using the routerstats on the new Fibre Router Technicolor TG582n FTTC

it says link status disconnected

do I need anything else running?

EDIT: I think routerstats is looking on the ADSL port for the wan, but as its a moded router with the wan on port 4 lan, its not seeing it



my problems were caused by the pole top box on my wall  :'(

when I got fibre it was supposed to be 48 but the engineer said no 30 down 1 up  :no:

I explained about the box cover missing for weeks and before that falling off all the time
I asked him to bypass it and do a test, he said no at first as he had a meter that tested the line for things like copper condition and that it was good, telling me that that's all I would get

after I pestered him, he gave in and wow 60 down and 11 up
so he bypassed in and twisted the wires together, saying he would mark the box as a danger

and as it was causing the people it served to have halve speed internet, it would be replaced
he said he would return with a sticker to mark it, but never returned
BTOR don't seem to like looking after the network  :-\
« Last Edit: September 28, 2013, 11:25:58 PM by SE »
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