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Author Topic: Maintenance and 'always-on' Broadband  (Read 9956 times)

Black Sheep

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Re: Maintenance and 'always-on' Broadband
« Reply #15 on: August 08, 2013, 09:08:51 PM »

?? Tis true .......... the noobies do 6 jobs a day most days. I'll leave it at that.  ;)
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kitz

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Re: Maintenance and 'always-on' Broadband
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2013, 02:01:44 AM »

>>> Let's do without it entirely? ;)  Worked fine with BE.

My thoughts entirely - I like BE's DLM, no complicated algorithms & No IP profiles. 
Just a straight forward set of various target SNRMs and levels of interleaving.

Tiscali used to have a huuuge range of profiles, but even they were transparent and easily configurable by the SP.

The problem with the BTw DLM is that no-one really knows for sure what can trigger it.. and no other system seems to have had so much problems with stuck profiles - although admittedly it is better than it was.  But theres still instances where the DLM seems to have a mind of its own and over-rides interleaving status.

As mentioned above the main gripe by the EU's is the IPprofiles and the limiting of throughput speed.  The idea of the IPprofile is that it stops un-necessary traffic at the bRAS from going down the backhaul pipes and clogging up at the exchange.   Years ago I could perhaps understand the necessity more than what I do today.  Afterall the internet is full of routers/switches/links which are going to have different speed limitations... even on our LAN outgoing traffic is very often limited by upstream dsl speeds. 
More investigation would be needed to find out how much of a bottle-neck the backhaul is...  and this is unlikely to be the same for different exchange sizes.

Sky's DLM (to me) seems the worst of the bunch in that you are assessed during a short time frame, then thats practically it.  But then again sky have always been a bit tight on their profiles.  2Mb was never 2Mb.. it was 2000kbps and they didnt allow for certain overheads which at least BTw did.


...... and on that subject... when I get some free time I need to do a bit of digging about Plusnets profiling system and overheads.   This is something I raised many moons ago on maxdsl and iirc something satisfactory was put in place which I see no sign of now on FTTC... but I need to look again properly before I go spouting my trap off.
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kitz

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Re: Maintenance and 'always-on' Broadband
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2013, 02:05:21 AM »

?? Tis true .......... the noobies do 6 jobs a day most days. I'll leave it at that.  ;)

and Kellys & Quinns do 6 to 8....   and the top boffins at BT wonder how....   ::)

but how many of those are done right first time... plus dont they normally get sent the simple stuff?
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Black Sheep

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Re: Maintenance and 'always-on' Broadband
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2013, 07:25:55 AM »

My own experiences of the contractors, is that they get issued the simpler skilled installation tasks. Not their fault to some degree, as they aren't allowed to work on more than one span of wire.

The problem is they get paid-per-job ......... that is, a fully completed job. So, it doesn't take a genius to work out how the aesthetics of a job may end up ?? If it looks like the job may take time, IMO the job will end up winging its way back to an Openreach engineer.

Poor, or should I say virtually no training, coupled with what in effect is bonus-related pay, makes for a poor service IMO. We trialled two flavours of BRP with in-house engineers years ago (FRS and SMT). We made an absolute mint, but the state of the network was disgraceful, as one would beg, borrow and steal to get a job 'completed'. I believe we are still recovering from that period in our history ??.

As such, I kind of sit on the fence with our contractor friends.
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ryant704

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Re: Maintenance and 'always-on' Broadband
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2013, 05:31:45 PM »

Not all Quinns get payed per Job...
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Black Sheep

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Re: Maintenance and 'always-on' Broadband
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2013, 06:00:46 PM »

Only 'Exchange/E-side' engineers, or their 'Hoist' engineers appear to be salaried. Everyone else afaik get paid-per-task. I have friends (ex-BT) who are managers for both Quinns and Kellies, and that has always been the case. 
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ColinS

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Re: Maintenance and 'always-on' Broadband
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2013, 09:08:50 PM »

@ BS :friends:

Researching, following on from your important point about LLU'ed lines, I found this interesting link http://www2.alcatel-lucent.com/techzine/vdsl2-vectoring-in-a-multi-operator-environment-separating-fact-from-fiction/ about how it's possible to achieve some things even in a 'multi-operator' environment.

Apologies that it's all in French  :(
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Black Sheep

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Re: Maintenance and 'always-on' Broadband
« Reply #22 on: August 10, 2013, 07:16:15 AM »

Good link. It backs up what I've read and stated in another thread, in that (according to your link) it's possible to work with vectoring in a multiple owner environment, but absolute best results need ALL circuits to be vectored.

This is why they run trials and keep them confidential, until they're certain it does what it says on the tin. No point releasing data on a weekly basis that may end up differing or contradicting itself, as the trial progresses and further 'disturbers' are introduced into the bundle. Plus, all the data is in French and I don't understand it ?? Luckily, I know a man who can.  ;) :D
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ColinS

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Re: Maintenance and 'always-on' Broadband
« Reply #23 on: August 10, 2013, 09:02:23 AM »

but absolute best results need ALL circuits to be vectored.
Of course.  Which is why some of us oppose the idea of VDSL2 sub-loop unbundling to Sky or anyone else, where potentially it would have the highest effect.  As far as ADSLx sub-loop unbundling goes, the cat is already out of the bag, but fortunately this has only has a very small impact on vectored VDSL2.

As those clever Frenchies already know, and no doubt the Chinese too :-X, but the good old Brits have still to confirm. ::)
I can see the headline now, "Openreach trial confirms what everybody else already knows".  ;):lol:
« Last Edit: August 10, 2013, 09:23:17 AM by ColinS »
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burakkucat

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Re: Maintenance and 'always-on' Broadband
« Reply #24 on: August 10, 2013, 05:21:19 PM »

Quote
As far as ADSLx sub-loop unbundling goes, the cat is already out of the bag, but fortunately this has only has a very small impact on vectored VDSL2.

 ^-^  Meow?

Suppose all xDSL services were eventually migrated to originate from the nearest cabinet DSLAM to the EU (i.e. do away with exchange based DSLAMs/MSANs). At a stroke, that would eliminate numerous factors, for the benefit of all. (A banded profile could be applied so that the service is identical to that which was provided by the exchange based equipment.)

For example, the service provided to The Cattery is ADSL2+. It is possible to obtain a VDSL2 service on the line and if the 80/20 service was used, the Beattie 'guesstimator' suggests that 60/20 could be obtained. Suppose my service was migrated to be served from the cabinet DSLAM. I would be perfectly happy to have a banded profile applied to it so that I received the 24/0.95 ADSL2+ service equivalent and continue to pay the price of the ADSL2+ service.
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ColinS

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Re: Maintenance and 'always-on' Broadband
« Reply #25 on: August 10, 2013, 07:28:30 PM »

Don't see why not in principle.  Seems like a good idea to me.  ;D  But then someone wouldn't get the premium for 'Superfast' broadband! ;)
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ryant704

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Re: Maintenance and 'always-on' Broadband
« Reply #26 on: August 11, 2013, 04:15:09 PM »

Only 'Exchange/E-side' engineers, or their 'Hoist' engineers appear to be salaried. Everyone else afaik get paid-per-task. I have friends (ex-BT) who are managers for both Quinns and Kellies, and that has always been the case.

My mums boyfriend works up in Birmingham for Quinns and gets paid per year. All he mainly does is FTTC installs with various other odd jobs.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Maintenance and 'always-on' Broadband
« Reply #27 on: August 11, 2013, 04:20:48 PM »

Fair do's,
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kitz

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Re: Maintenance and 'always-on' Broadband
« Reply #28 on: August 11, 2013, 04:52:25 PM »

Perhaps its only a more recent thing?   
Like since their contract to BT in 2011, whereby BT pay Quinns/Kellys per completion of each job item.. hence them in turn only paying the engineer per job.

All new vacancies appear to be advertised as per job

Quote
Be flexible with regard to working hours as you are paid on a job completion and appointment completion basis.

Certainly all mentions Ive seen recently are per job completion.  They also seem to have a pretty high staff churn rate due to various factors such as travel/distance/not getting paid if they turn up for a job and the EU isnt in.
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bbnovice

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Re: Maintenance and 'always-on' Broadband
« Reply #29 on: August 11, 2013, 07:03:33 PM »

Do Quinns/Kelly use OR branded vans?

I recently had an engineer arrive in an OR branded vehicle to fix a broadband fault which he did quite competently. However a couple of throw away comments he made did make me wonder if he were actually was employed by OR itself.
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