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Author Topic: Vectoring Trial  (Read 11343 times)

ColinS

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #30 on: August 12, 2013, 07:04:26 PM »

Well said. :)
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burakkucat

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #31 on: August 12, 2013, 07:34:11 PM »

A few of you will know that around 35 years ago I systematically (over a period of many months) read every copy of the Post Office Electrical Engineers' Journal that had been published. That journal was very much in the format of a learned journal and carried details of the R & D that took place, originally at Dollis Hill and latterly at Grimbledon Down. (I even subscribed to that journal for a few years.  ;)  )

I am currently reading the last four parts of that journal (Volume 74, 1981 - 82) before it was renamed (as British Telecommunications Engineering) as a consequence of the renaming of The Institution of Post Office Electrical Engineers as The Institution of British Telecommunications Engineering which, in turn, was a direct result of the transmogrification of Post Office Telephones into British Telecommunications.

In my grotto I have the first three parts (Volume 1, 1982) and a few other issues of British Telecommunications Engineering, yet to be read. I fully expect to see that the learned journal tradition had persisted.

Finally I get to the crux of my posting. Is the British Telecommunications Engineering journal still published? And is it still of the standard, established by the prior POEEJ? If the answer is "yes" to both questions, then that publication should be the required reading of all of us "who like to know".  :)
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Black Sheep

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #32 on: August 12, 2013, 07:36:08 PM »

yeah to make it clear, I do accept BT need to trial it prior to a rollout.  It would be somewhat crazy to just rollout without any kind of trial, so I agree processes need to be established, as you discovered also changes to JDSU's etc. as well to make them vector friendly.  BT probably also need to establish protocol for what happens when they discover a modem on their network that isnt vector friendly (breaching openreach existing guidelines).  Those sort of things I fully understand that preperation is needed.

Also what may be very important if existing cabinet equipment is not in the right state to simply switch vectoring on (which many of us believe to be the case), a process will need to be established on how to switch areas over.

My point is more about BT seem detached from other isp's in that as stated by the above few posts, they tend to do things at their own pace and not worry about what others are doing worldwide.

I wouldn't know how to answer that, other than what I've already stated ?? It's their network, it's their trials ..... what should they be worried about on a worldwide scale ???
Vectoring is relatively new on the world scene, I think 2010 was quoted elsewhere. Was that the beginning or the end of 2010 ?? We really only started installing FTTC in volume nationwide approx 2yrs ago, and now we're half way in to this vectoring trial and it's still only 2013.
Believe me, please ?? There are a million and one power-point presentations surrounding this trial and what is needed to bring it to market. If they struggle, I'll give Liv Garfield a nudge and tell her Colin and Chrysalis have a cunning plan !! ;) ;D ;D
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Black Sheep

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #33 on: August 12, 2013, 07:43:34 PM »

B*Cat ...... I have personally not seen any journal other than 'Field Engineering News', offered up to we engineers. That though, is just brief outlines of projects, change of process, etc etc
The real 'meat' is in our ISIS library, which describes in finite detail every aspect of BT's 'doings'. From H&S, to FTTP, to which screwdriver to use. Guess what though ?? They are confidential and not for public consumption. You would never, ever, ever get through all that reading material, Alan !!! But, it's right up your street with stuff that goes right over my head.  :D
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c6em

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #34 on: August 12, 2013, 07:55:46 PM »


Part of the trials involve determing the effect of external influences on the vectored system.
In particular interference from such installations as aerials and railways.



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ColinS

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #35 on: August 12, 2013, 08:18:21 PM »

Finally I get to the crux of my posting. Is the British Telecommunications Engineering journal still published? And is it still of the standard, established by the prior POEEJ? If the answer is "yes" to both questions, then that publication should be the required reading of all of us "who like to know".  :)
Ah, the POEEJ.  If only it were ....  :(
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #36 on: August 12, 2013, 08:19:59 PM »


If they struggle, I'll give Liv Garfield a nudge and tell her Colin and Chrysalis have a cunning plan !! ;) ;D ;D


When you do that, you may wish to also mention that you are aware of a particular user that is allegedly experiencing crosstalk issues that have robbed 1/3 of his connection's previous capabilities.

That user might just be inclined to provide a little feedback if his connection was chosen to 'test' the success rate of Vectoring.
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ColinS

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #37 on: August 12, 2013, 08:32:27 PM »

I wouldn't know how to answer that, other than what I've already stated ?? It's their network, it's their trials ..... what should they be worried about on a worldwide scale ???
Nothing - provided they want to give a hostage to fortune from those who might say that this (would be) the typically arrogant attitude of any monopoly provider.  And none of us would want that.  :no: :(
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Vectoring is relatively new on the world scene, I think 2010 was quoted elsewhere. Was that the beginning or the end of 2010 ??
Public trials in other countries by other CSPs started in mid-2010, as cited in the above links.  The technology was developed before that, obviously.

Quote
We really only started installing FTTC in volume nationwide approx 2yrs ago, and now we're half way in to this vectoring trial and it's still only 2013.
And all due credit to OR for this. :clap2:

Quote
There are a million and one power-point presentations surrounding this trial and what is needed to bring it to market. If they struggle, I'll give Liv Garfield a nudge and tell her Colin and Chrysalis have a cunning plan !! ;) ;D ;D
Yes, I do. It's to persuade her to to see the sense of allowing her very clever engineers to publish their work in the POEEJ or anywhere else that's open to public inspection, so that we can all see and understand what they are trying to achieve, how and why.  What's she got to lose?  Only enhanced respect for their efforts?
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Chrysalis

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #38 on: August 12, 2013, 08:39:43 PM »

yeah to make it clear, I do accept BT need to trial it prior to a rollout.  It would be somewhat crazy to just rollout without any kind of trial, so I agree processes need to be established, as you discovered also changes to JDSU's etc. as well to make them vector friendly.  BT probably also need to establish protocol for what happens when they discover a modem on their network that isnt vector friendly (breaching openreach existing guidelines).  Those sort of things I fully understand that preperation is needed.

Also what may be very important if existing cabinet equipment is not in the right state to simply switch vectoring on (which many of us believe to be the case), a process will need to be established on how to switch areas over.

My point is more about BT seem detached from other isp's in that as stated by the above few posts, they tend to do things at their own pace and not worry about what others are doing worldwide.

I wouldn't know how to answer that, other than what I've already stated ?? It's their network, it's their trials ..... what should they be worried about on a worldwide scale ???
Vectoring is relatively new on the world scene, I think 2010 was quoted elsewhere. Was that the beginning or the end of 2010 ?? We really only started installing FTTC in volume nationwide approx 2yrs ago, and now we're half way in to this vectoring trial and it's still only 2013.
Believe me, please ?? There are a million and one power-point presentations surrounding this trial and what is needed to bring it to market. If they struggle, I'll give Liv Garfield a nudge and tell her Colin and Chrysalis have a cunning plan !! ;) ;D ;D

They havent necessarily got to copy everyone else, but one would expect BT to be aware of vectoring earlier and plan for it earlier, if its true eg. that all ECI dslam cards would have to be replaced to rollout vectoring than thats just bad planning and management.

For this reason I dont think vectoring will be rolled out soon to existing areas, it would make their current investment too much of a waste, swapping out cabinet equipment thats been in place for a very short time.  But will see maybe BT will surprise me.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #39 on: August 12, 2013, 09:25:41 PM »

That's my point Chrysalis .......... with respect, your just guessing what current plant spec is, and second-guessing what BT intend to do about it ?? You have no way at all of gauging what is out there, and its 'vectoring' compatibilities ?? Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, and I do hope they surprise you.  :)

Colin ........ 'Nothing - provided they want to give a hostage to fortune from those who might say that this (would be) the typically arrogant attitude of any monopoly provider.  And none of us would want that.  :no: :('
Same answer to yourself my friend, just because they're not hot-footing it to the public forums every time they run a test, does not mean they're not 'knowledge sharing, or knowledge-acquiring, from other global Telecoms leaders. in fact, I'd bet my pension that that's exactly what they do !!!  ;) ;D

BE ...... Don't you go worrying, Liv knows of you personally, and we have had a gold-plated vectoring shelf specially made for PCPxx in Oldham, for all your hard work and dedication to FTTC test and diagnostics. Bet Mrs BE wants to move house once its fitted ??  ;D
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Black Sheep

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #40 on: August 12, 2013, 09:29:02 PM »

I'm going to bow out of this thread now, as we're just going round in circles, and the simple truth is none of us will know what the final decisions are, until they are made way above my pay grade.

I'm off now, to insist that TRESemme tell me how their latest hair-product trials are coming along.  :P ;D
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Chrysalis

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #41 on: August 13, 2013, 11:49:49 AM »

That's my point Chrysalis .......... with respect, your just guessing what current plant spec is, and second-guessing what BT intend to do about it ?? You have no way at all of gauging what is out there, and its 'vectoring' compatibilities ?? Of course, you are entitled to your opinion, and I do hope they surprise you.  :)

Colin ........ 'Nothing - provided they want to give a hostage to fortune from those who might say that this (would be) the typically arrogant attitude of any monopoly provider.  And none of us would want that.  :no: :('
Same answer to yourself my friend, just because they're not hot-footing it to the public forums every time they run a test, does not mean they're not 'knowledge sharing, or knowledge-acquiring, from other global Telecoms leaders. in fact, I'd bet my pension that that's exactly what they do !!!  ;) ;D

BE ...... Don't you go worrying, Liv knows of you personally, and we have had a gold-plated vectoring shelf specially made for PCPxx in Oldham, for all your hard work and dedication to FTTC test and diagnostics. Bet Mrs BE wants to move house once its fitted ??  ;D


with respect I do, I am not guessing whats in cabinets and not guessing the capabilities.

the capabilities are published on ECI's website and photos have been taken of ECI cabinets showing what is inside them.

Of course its possible that not all ECI cabinets have the same ECI equipment, but other members of BT staff who are not as secretive as you have said BT only use M41's for ECI cabinets.  Not only have I used ECI's website but they also replied to me in an email stating M41's cannot do vectoring.

Trying to have a rational discussion but you are coming across a bit defensive I already said maybe BT will surprise me but that didnt seem to go down too well with you, so I dont know what else to say really, other than its not complete guesswork on the equipment.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #42 on: August 13, 2013, 12:12:47 PM »

I'm defensive because I work for the company, Chrysalis. They have give me a good standard of living for nearly 28yrs now, and when I see folk quoting half-measures to try and and support their cries of BT are basically cr4p, then I will question them.

These other 'non-secretive' BT folk ?? If they want to post up their thoughts on other sites, all power to them. When the official documentation I see says, 'CONFIDENTIAL - NOT TO BE DISCLOSED OUTSIDE OF BT', I do not go cutting and pasting the information, just to look good on a public site.

If you get the information from other sources outside of BT, then all power to you. But I would seriously question where you get your info as you posted this further up the thread ..... ' ..... and yes all existing modems have to be in a vectoring friendly state ie. they have to transmit vector friendly signals although they dont necessarily need to be vectoring enabled just vector friendly so they stop been disturbers.  The 2 are different things'., which was quite obviously wrong as our own Colin S then posted ..... 'CSPs can switch customers who are willing to pay for higher bit rates to vectoring (either by shipping a new vectoring CPE, or by upgrading the existing VDSL2 CPE to vectoring, if supported), and use zero-touch vectoring for all other legacy VDSL2 lines. Together, these actions enable full downstream vectoring gains on the vectored lines.
CSPs can then upgrade legacy VDSL2 CPE to vectoring or vectoring-friendly mode at their leisure to unlock full upstream vectoring gains on the vectored lines as well. If the CPE supports neither vectoring nor vectoring-friendly mode, zero-touch vectoring provides a safety net because it can support all legacy VDSL2 CPE'.
. This was a quote from Alcatel-Lucent.

I was all up for a 'rational discussion', but trying to belittle me as you appear to be attempting to do in your post above, does not really endear me to do that anymore. If you mistook my sarcastic jokes as being serious, then a PM to me would have been the preferred method, but take it from me, they were just sarcastic comments.

As I said above, I wanted to bow out of this, as the discussion is just going round and round. I will defend BT, you will call them into question. You state you don't think vectoring will be rolled out shortly (whatever timespan 'shortly' means ?), I say it will, after the trials have ended.

Agent Black Sheep, over and out.  ;)
 
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Chrysalis

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #43 on: August 13, 2013, 02:20:09 PM »

Black Sheep you said you were done but here you are again, sadly it seems you cant accept 'any' kind of comment that isnt saying BT is great.  That is going too far.

ColinS doesnt have to agree with me but one of the sale points of vectoring to isp's is they can use vectoring as a way of charging a premium fee.  Of course for vectoring to work all equipment has to be vectoring friendly to remove disturbers, but they dont have to be enabled (higher sync speeds).  Yes the 2 are different things.

Making a CPE vectoring friendly changes the transmitted signal so that vector enabled devices can seperate that signal from their own signals.  A vector friendly but not enabled device will not seperate neighbouring signals from its own and as such not get the benefit of increased speeds but still wont interfere with neighbouring enabled lines.  All this information is in published alcatel and ofcom documentation, there is nothing confidential about it.

There is also nothing confidential about the capabilities of ECI hardware.  ECI have chosen to publicise it.
Likewise Huawei have done the same with their hardware.

I wasnt belittling you but simply stating the information is already out in the wild in terms of the equipment in BT's cabinets.

You then quoted alcatel to state I am wrong yet what you quoted states vector friendly and vector enabled are 2 different modes,

BT may like to treat all their customers as idiots, they always know best, best not to give us technical info etc. but we customers will still get this information from other sources.

Whatever you may state about BT, its a clear U turn on their original plan, there is no way it makes business sense to deploy expensive to deploy equipment that has a 2-3 year self life.  In this case BT clearly wanted to have a bigger part of their deployment as FTTP but that hasnt worked out for them so now they have shifted more focus onto FTTC and decided to look into vectoring. 

Is there now going to be another post calling me an idiot?  Also I dont remember calling BT crap ;)  Saying been short sighted and not planning properly is not calling them crap, this is where you have been overly defensive.  If we all talk in PM what is the point of the forum?

I am sorry you cannot take part in a discussion which has comments that point out bad things about BT.  Companies I have worked for in the past I dont defend them to the point I think they are absolute perfection and feel the need to defend them.
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ColinS

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #44 on: August 13, 2013, 03:49:55 PM »

ColinS doesnt have to agree with me but one of the sale points of vectoring to isp's is they can use vectoring as a way of charging a premium fee. 
No, Chrysalis, I don't disagree with you at all that that is a typical selling point.  :)

However, you raise an interesting definitional debate about 'vectoring' (which I think you are terming more explicitly 'vectoring-enabled'), 'vectoring-friendly' and 'legacy' VDSL2 CPE. 

I recommend a rereading of this link http://www2.alcatel-lucent.com/techzine/3-innovations-that-make-vdsl2-vectoring-easy-to-deploy/ as space is limited here. But here are a few relevant extracts:
Quote
Upgrading legacy VDSL2 customer premises equipment (CPE): To achieve the full gain on vectored lines, all legacy VDSL2 CPE must be upgraded to vectoring or vectoring-friendly mode. These upgrades are time consuming, and not all legacy VDSL2 CPE supports such upgrades. With zero-touch vectoring technology, CSPs can benefit from vectoring gains on vectored lines without “touching” the legacy VDSL2 CPE.
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Migrating legacy CPE is the biggest challenge CSPs face in a vectoring roll-out. Even a single legacy VDSL2 line in a binder can reduce the vectoring gains on other lines. To avoid this situation, all legacy VDSL2 CPE must be upgraded to either vectoring or vectoring-friendly mode. CSPs currently use 2 approaches to upgrade legacy VDSL2 CPE:
1) Firmware upgrade to vectoring mode
2) Firmware upgrade to vectoring-friendly mode
Quote
The current approaches create two challenges for CSPs:
1) Not all legacy VDSL2 CPE can be upgraded to vectoring or vectoring-friendly mode. That means any remaining legacy lines will reduce vectoring gains on the other lines.
2) Upgrading legacy VDSL2 CPE is logistically difficult. The CSP must upgrade hundreds (of thousands) of CPE before vectoring can be activated (shurely some exaggeration here ;D ???). This requires significant time and effort and can delay vectoring deployments. Any number of issues can arise during upgrades — firmware updates can fail, end users might have switched off their CPE during the upgrade window, or they might have disabled the remote update feature.

Zero-touch vectoring technology solves the legacy VDSL2 CPE challenge for CSPs automatically. Clever signal processing in the DSL access node ensures that cross-talk from legacy VDSL2 lines into vectored lines can be measured, and canceled without requiring any new functionality in the legacy VDSL2 CPE. As a result, firmware upgrades are not required; legacy VDSL2 CPE behave as if they are “vectoring-friendly” without being touched.

Hope this at least informs the debate for all of us.  :)

[Edit] Or CSPs could pass on the cost of new replacement CPE to EUs as part of a new service. £££££!  ;D  But persuading everyone in the same cable binder to do so, whether they wanted to or not, would be quite another issue!
« Last Edit: August 13, 2013, 04:16:30 PM by ColinS »
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