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Author Topic: Vectoring Trial  (Read 11342 times)

DeadMan

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #15 on: August 09, 2013, 05:42:36 PM »

Would you say vectoring gives all connections an overall boost in speed/quality or is it a case of those in certain configurations can expect more than others again? What speed increase %'s are we expected to see for most?
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Black Sheep

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #16 on: August 09, 2013, 05:57:38 PM »

The 64,000 dollar question ?? The trials are pretty much in their infancy, and the data is confidential, so I personally can't give too much info. I would say though, that it appears all circuits have to be vectored in order for it to perform at its optimum. 'Non-vectored lines seem to be referred to as 'Disturbers' or 'Aliens', and appear to have an impact ...... how big or small I don't quite know ??

It must be significant enough though, as the engineers taking part in the trial, have to use a special separate module on their Hand Held Testers (HHT) in order not to fall under the 'Disturber' moniker.

I'm afraid you'll have to wait for the perceived increases per line-length, but on the face of it, everyone will hopefully gain ??. Others may have the time to dig out 'Vectoring effects' and associated data, from elsewhere around the globe ?? You may then gauge possible increases ??
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ColinS

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #17 on: August 09, 2013, 07:49:50 PM »

The benefits of vectoring have been tried in other countries by other CSPs as along ago as 2010.  BT is not, IMO, testing whether or not it does 'what it says on the can', but rather piloting the practical processes and procedures necessary for a successful roll-out in the UK.  Can't imagine what's particularly confidential about it, but hey, ho.
This link (amongst very many) http://www.assia-inc.com/news-and-events/in-the-news/pdf/VDSL2Rescue_061510_web.pdf has a graph showing the potential improvements.

This link http://www2.alcatel-lucent.com/techzine/vdsl2-vectoring-delivers-on-its-promise/ is yet another reporting on its promise.

Some of the earlier links posted explain how it is possible to use a 'zero-touch' approach to non-vectoring friendly lines.
« Last Edit: August 09, 2013, 07:51:59 PM by ColinS »
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Black Sheep

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #18 on: August 09, 2013, 08:04:43 PM »

I'm guessing the confidentiality is down to wanting to proof-test the product to its fullest, on different lengths of cable, on different gauges and metallic construction, at different times of the day, etc etc ..........  before releasing documented statements proclaiming what improvements (if any), EU's can expect ??

I think any brand leader would approach it in the same manner ??
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ColinS

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #19 on: August 09, 2013, 08:21:59 PM »

I think any brand leader would approach it in the same manner ??
Excellent.  I look forward to them publishing their results in a manner similar to alcatel-lucent then.  :)
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Black Sheep

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #20 on: August 09, 2013, 08:28:00 PM »

What ?? You want the info in French ??
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ColinS

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #21 on: August 09, 2013, 08:54:28 PM »

I must be more fluent in French than my O-level allows then, because when I read any of content of the links I posted they seemed to me to be in English! :D
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Chrysalis

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #22 on: August 12, 2013, 05:09:39 PM »

I think black sheep what he means is BT seem to be treating as something new and unknown when in reality its now years old, they are very much behind the curve.

BT shouldnt be testing what vectoring does, thats already known and proven, but rather compatability with whats unique to their own service such as existing CPE and DLM.

and yes all existing modems have to be in a vectoring friendly state ie. they have to transmit vector friendly signals although they dont necessarily need to be vectoring enabled just vector friendly so they stop been disturbers.  The 2 are different things.

There is even ofcom documentation on vectoring.  So even the uk has explored vectoring before as well.
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Black Sheep

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #23 on: August 12, 2013, 05:52:58 PM »

Thanks Chrysallis, however, I'd already gathered there was a hint of sarcasm to the posts.  ;) ;D

I don't think BT are treating these trials as if 'Vectoring' is a brand new product, at all. They are, of course, testing the product on their network and associated 'plug-ins', such as DLM like you mention. That is where the confidentiality lies.

I'm sometimes left puzzled as to what (the royal) you, think BT do all day ?? They have been around Telecoms for quite a while now. OK, so they don't always get it right first time .......... show me a global business that does ?? They may be 'Behind the curve', but so what ..... that is their prerogative. If they want to test a product to its fullness and their total satisfaction, before they publish data that people are going to jump all over if it isn't 'just so', then again, that is their decision to make.

That is good info, Chrysalis, regarding the routers only needing to be vector friendly. I can foresee a bit of a learning curve may be needed when it does make it to market.  :) 
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ColinS

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #24 on: August 12, 2013, 05:53:32 PM »

This http://www2.alcatel-lucent.com/techzine/3-innovations-that-make-vdsl2-vectoring-easy-to-deploy/, which I previous posted @#14 above, discusses how a 'zero-touch' approach to legacy CPEs, so that they don't even need to be vector-friendly to start such a roll-out
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CSPs can switch customers who are willing to pay for higher bit rates to vectoring (either by shipping a new vectoring CPE, or by upgrading the existing VDSL2 CPE to vectoring, if supported), and use zero-touch vectoring for all other legacy VDSL2 lines. Together, these actions enable full downstream vectoring gains on the vectored lines.

CSPs can then upgrade legacy VDSL2 CPE to vectoring or vectoring-friendly mode at their leisure to unlock full upstream vectoring gains on the vectored lines as well. If the CPE supports neither vectoring nor vectoring-friendly mode, zero-touch vectoring provides a safety net because it can support all legacy VDSL2 CPE.
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kitz

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #25 on: August 12, 2013, 06:15:37 PM »

Add in the fact that BT have never been known to just take the word for industry standards and prefer to do their own testing in their own environment.   

This has historically been the case with most of the technologies that they use...    they then often seem to tweak things to suit their own aims and quite often file patents on their findings.   BT employ and/or  have access to some of the top engineers/scientists/researchers who seem to come up with various tweaks on the original design.   They've done so with so many things.   

These boffins at the top of research though seem to be locked away in dungeons.. as you never seem to see or hear of them, nor any of their (personal)  findings are ever posted on the net.  You may though on occasions stumble across things in the patents library which just accredit BT and you know that they do have a team constantly working and tweaking existing technology as well as new.
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ColinS

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #26 on: August 12, 2013, 06:16:25 PM »

Thanks Chrysallis, however, I'd already gathered there was a hint of sarcasm to the posts.  ;) ;D
Not at all.  BT's big enough to withstand a little fun being poked at it, surely? :) No-one's perfect, not even BT, as you sagely observe. :)

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They are, of course, testing the product on their network and associated 'plug-ins', such as DLM like you mention. That is where the confidentiality lies.
So, you now agree with what I said then?  ;) :)
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BT is not, IMO, testing whether or not it does 'what it says on the can', but rather piloting the practical processes and procedures necessary for a successful roll-out in the UK.

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I'm sometimes left puzzled as to what (the royal) you, think BT do all day ??
The problem BS is that if they are retiscent to place what they are doing in the public domain, like others in the global telecommunications business, then frankly, apart from leaks from your good self ;D, how would we know?

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If they want to test a product to its fullness and their total satisfaction, before they publish data that people are going to jump all over if it isn't 'just so', then again, that is their decision to make.
Again, part of the problem with BT (being as big as it is in all its parts) is that (the royal 'you' i.e. us poor EUs) get the impression sometimes that it is only their satisfaction that counts.  Perhaps better PR would help here?

However, I am looking forward to when they do
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publish data
following the completion of the trial (assuming the data is a little more than a product announcement, or more marketing spiel :D), and I'm sure you'll get us all posted when that happens.  :thumbs:
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Black Sheep

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #27 on: August 12, 2013, 06:34:19 PM »

Thanks Kitz, for basically posting up my next offerings to this debate. You are also right with your observations, about our boffins being locked away !! The 'Chief Engineers Office' is like MI6 !!

Colin, it's fine to be sarcastic, or 'A little fun being poked' .......... my subsequent  ;) ;D tells you as much.  :)

I will still differ with you about making their trial results public, whilst they are on-going. I think it would be absolute madness to do this, and they obviously think the same.  :)

What I would agree with you on though, is better PR. How this could be achieved is the issue. We can't make bold statements like 'Vectoring will improve all DSL circuits', because we simply don't know that for 100% sure. Hence the trials. Whatever we do say by way of PR, will have Ofcom all over it in a breath, so again, the trials have to be completed, data collated and decisions made.

There are people in our business on 7-figure salaries, and additional 7-figure share options, who have a much deeper insight into the technologies, application of said technologies, costings, and ........... PR roll-out.
They will have no doubt had discussions with other telecoms giants about the suitability, and they will definitely had chats with the people who will eventually supply us with the relative equipment. They haven't just woke up one day in May and said, "I've just GOOGLED 'Vectoring' and it might be OK".

A touch of my own sarcasm there, just in case others misconstrue my intentions. Please, rest assured, they know what they are doing and will let us all in on the 'secret' when they're good and ready.  ;D

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ColinS

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #28 on: August 12, 2013, 06:45:40 PM »

BS, I don't think I, or AFAIK, anyone else here ever suggested they publish anything while their trial goes on.  That would be pointless.  It would be refreshing though if they did so after it was completed. :)

As Kitz has pointed out, it's a cultural difference with them.  What goes on at Martlesham and elsewhere is kept close to their chests, and always has been, even before Ofcom was invented.  Others are happy to describe their work in principle to the world, and subject it to public scrutiny. This is 'the scientific approach'.

I'm afraid my fear is they won't let us all in on the secret, as they will never be ready to do so.  But I would be delighted to be proved completely wrong.  :friends:
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 07:02:29 PM by ColinS »
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Chrysalis

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Re: Vectoring Trial
« Reply #29 on: August 12, 2013, 06:55:32 PM »

yeah to make it clear, I do accept BT need to trial it prior to a rollout.  It would be somewhat crazy to just rollout without any kind of trial, so I agree processes need to be established, as you discovered also changes to JDSU's etc. as well to make them vector friendly.  BT probably also need to establish protocol for what happens when they discover a modem on their network that isnt vector friendly (breaching openreach existing guidelines).  Those sort of things I fully understand that preperation is needed.

Also what may be very important if existing cabinet equipment is not in the right state to simply switch vectoring on (which many of us believe to be the case), a process will need to be established on how to switch areas over.

My point is more about BT seem detached from other isp's in that as stated by the above few posts, they tend to do things at their own pace and not worry about what others are doing worldwide.
« Last Edit: August 12, 2013, 07:00:52 PM by Chrysalis »
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