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Author Topic: different values of attenuations  (Read 5928 times)

adycast

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different values of attenuations
« on: August 04, 2013, 05:21:44 AM »

I have somes questions about the results I get on my adsl line. First the values I want to discuss.
#1
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: ShowtimeRetrain Reason: 0
Channel: FAST, Upstream rate = 800 Kbps, Downstream rate = 7040 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode:                   G.DMT
Channel:                Fast
Trellis:                ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):       20.6            6.0
Attn(dB):       23.0            31.5
Pwr(dBm):       9.8             12.6
Max(Kbps):      10752           1056
Rate (Kbps):    7040            800

#2
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: ShowtimeRetrain Reason: 0
Channel: FAST, Upstream rate = 800 Kbps, Downstream rate = 7040 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode:                   G.DMT
Channel:                Fast
Trellis:                ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):       22.3            6.0
Attn(dB):       24.0            27.0
Pwr(dBm):       11.6            12.5
Max(Kbps):      10880           1088
Rate (Kbps):    7040            800

#3
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: ShowtimeRetrain Reason: 1
Channel: FAST, Upstream rate = 800 Kbps, Downstream rate = 7040 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode:                   G.DMT
Channel:                Fast
Trellis:                ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):       20.6            6.0
Attn(dB):       23.0            11.0
Pwr(dBm):       9.7             12.5
Max(Kbps):      10784           1088
Rate (Kbps):    7040            800

Theses stats where thankens in that order 1 to 3 a certain time after rebooting the modem.
My questions are about the attenuation, normally attenuation less at lowers frequencies, the attenuation on the upstream go from 31.5db to 27 db and finally to 11 db. I cannot explain this other than tinking that I connect to a different modem in the DSLAM, I though that my line is connected to the same modem for the connection, Am I wrong thinking that?  Is there a problem, the line was working properly for the three values.  Can someone provide an explanation.
Thanks
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roseway

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Re: different values of attenuations
« Reply #1 on: August 04, 2013, 07:40:07 AM »

Hi and welcome

Those stats are all over the place, and don't make a lot of sense. in 1 and 2 the downstream attenuation is less than the upstream, which is highly unlikely. And the attenuation certainly shouldn't change by more than tiny amounts from one reboot to the next. You're always connected to the same port on the same DSLAM (or MSAN) so that isn't the explanation.

I also see that your downstream SNR (SNRM really) is unrealistically high. And if the downstream attenuation values can be believed, the connection is underperforming on speed.

These anomalies suggest that there's some sort of line defect, or a defect in your own wiring or equipment. The first thing to do (if you have an NTE5 type of master socket) is to plug the modem/router into the test socket inside the master socket, using a different filter just in case that's the problem. Also, if you can, try a different modem/router to eliminate that as the cause of the problem.

The other helpful thing you can do is to run one of the various monitoring programs to see how the SNRM and other characteristics vary over time. What model of modem/router do you have?
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: different values of attenuations
« Reply #2 on: August 04, 2013, 07:40:51 AM »


Theses stats where thankens in that order 1 to 3 a certain time after rebooting the modem.
My questions are about the attenuation, normally attenuation less at lowers frequencies, the attenuation on the upstream go from 31.5db to 27 db and finally to 11 db. I cannot explain this other than tinking that I connect to a different modem in the DSLAM, I though that my line is connected to the same modem for the connection, Am I wrong thinking that?  Is there a problem, the line was working properly for the three values.  Can someone provide an explanation.
Thanks


These different Retrain Reasons confirm the connection resynced/retrained at least once:-

Retrain Reason: 0
Retrain Reason: 1


It may well have also resynced/retrained the 2nd time you had Retrain Reason: 0


How long after rebooting the modem was each set of data obtained?

We should be able to see that from the remaining stats (not shown in your examples):-

e.g. from an ADSL2+ connection:-
 
Code: [Select]
# adslctl info --stats
adslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: ShowtimeRetrain Reason: 0
Channel: FAST, Upstream rate = 1153 Kbps, Downstream rate = 10896 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode:                   ADSL2+
Channel:                Fast
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):       7.1             7.8
Attn(dB):       26.5            15.3
Pwr(dBm):       19.1            12.3
Max(Kbps):      10404           1186
Rate (Kbps):    10896           1153
                        G.dmt framing
K:              159(0)          18
R:              12              12
S:              1               8
D:              64              8
                        ADSL2 framing
MSGc:           63              13
B:              158             17
M:              1               8
T:              2               7
R:              12              12
S:              0.4654          3.9619
L:              2939            315
D:              64              8
                        Counters
SF:             53152           53315
SFErr:          2               30625
RS:             7334994         860727
RSCorr:         689             298992
RSUnCorr:       4               0

HEC:            1               333794
OCD:            0               0
LCD:            0               0
Total Cells:    21918394                311108903
Data Cells:     55803           51899792
Drop Cells:     0
Bit Errors:     0               18403919

ES:             1               8613
SES:            0               2621
UAS:            18              38954
AS:             854

INP:            1.04            1.21
PER:            16.05           16.46
delay:          7.44            7.92
OR:             34.37           9.23

Bitswap:        76              1

Total time = 14 min 41 sec
SF  = 53152
CRC = 2
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES  = 1
Latest 1 day time = 14 min 41 sec
SF  = 53152
CRC = 2
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES  = 1
Latest 15 minutes time = 14 min 41 sec
SF  = 53152
CRC = 2
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES  = 1
Previous 15 minutes time = 0 sec
SF  = 0
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES  = 0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
SF  = 0
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES  = 0
Showtime Drop Reason:   0
Last Retrain Reason:    0


It may well be that an intermittent issue is present on your line (HR etc.) that causes resyncs with differing attenuation values, but resyncing at the same speeds each time.

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adycast

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Re: different values of attenuations
« Reply #3 on: August 04, 2013, 06:14:05 PM »

Thanks for your answers, I am connected with a dry loop to a a Remote DSLAM at about 1/2 to 3/4 Kilometers from my house. For the SNR margin I have always seens numbers around 20 db; my problem with SNRM is the value for the upstream which does not vary from 6 db, I think it is a set value by Bell at the dslam (is that statement right? or wrong?). My modem a D-Link DSL-520B is directly attach to a Corning ADSL/VDSL Pots Splitter, directly at the Bell entrance. Sorry I do not have an NTE5, what would the test socket do? I am including the full stats from the modem, they where tankens 1.30 hours after a reboot I did at 11-00 a.m local time this morning.

> adsl info --stats
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: ShowtimeRetrain Reason: 0
Channel: FAST, Upstream rate = 800 Kbps, Downstream rate = 7040 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode:                   G.DMT
Channel:                Fast
Trellis:                ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):       20.7            6.0
Attn(dB):       23.0            15.5
Pwr(dBm):       9.6             12.6
Max(Kbps):      10720           1088
Rate (Kbps):    7040            800
                        G.dmt framing
K:              221(0)          26
R:              4               2
S:              1               1
D:              1               1
                        ADSL2 framing
MSGc:           1               1
B:              221             26
M:              1               1
T:              1               1
R:              4               2
S:              1.0180          1.0740
L:              1776            216
D:              1               1
                        Counters
SF:             313289          313178
SFErr:          2               1
RS:             21303714                21296104
RSCorr:         0               0
RSUnCorr:       4               0

HEC:            2               0
OCD:            0               0
LCD:            0               0
Total Cells:    88430815                0
Data Cells:     1992320         0
Drop Cells:     0
Bit Errors:     0               0

ES:             3               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            12              0
AS:             5326

INP:            0.00            0.03
PER:            1.78            1.87
delay:          0.25            0.26
OR:             31.43           29.79

Bitswap:        0               0

Total time = 1 hours 29 min 7 sec
SF  = 313289
CRC = 2
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES  = 3
Latest 1 day time = 1 hours 29 min 7 sec
SF  = 313289
CRC = 2
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES  = 3
Latest 15 minutes time = 14 min 7 sec
SF  = 49855
CRC = 1
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES  = 1
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
SF  = 52923
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES  = 0
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
SF  = 0
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES  = 0
15 minutes interval [-30 min to -15 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF  = 52923
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES  = 0
15 minutes interval [-45 min to -30 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF  = 52982
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES  = 0
15 minutes interval [-60 min to -45 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF  = 52923
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES  = 0
Showtime Drop Reason:   0
Last Retrain Reason:    0
>

Thanks again
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roseway

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Re: different values of attenuations
« Reply #4 on: August 04, 2013, 07:44:04 PM »

The upstream SNRM is probably set to 6 dB as a target when the router/DSLAM are negotiating the sync, but it will vary after that as interference conditions change over time. What is probably happening is that the router doesn't update the figure after the initial sync.

However, that being said, your connection speeds appear to be fixed at 7040 down, 800 up, which isn't consistent with a fixed target SNRM, so I'm not sure what's happening there. This would explain the high downstream SNRM - if the speed weren't capped at 7040 you would be able to get a considerably higher speed.

The test socket is a socket inside the NTE5 master socket which is constructed so that when the faceplate is removed to expose the test socket, all extensions are disconnected. This enables the user to eliminate the possibility that internal wiring is causing the problem.

I guess from what you say that you aren't in the UK?
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burakkucat

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Re: different values of attenuations
« Reply #5 on: August 04, 2013, 07:56:03 PM »

From adycast's reference to Bell and a Corning ADSL/VDSL Pots Splitter I guess that he is based in the North American continent.  ;)
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adycast

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Re: different values of attenuations
« Reply #6 on: August 05, 2013, 03:21:37 AM »

Absolutly I am in North America, going back to the value of 6 db for SNRM. I beleive that my idea is right; it is a set value by the phone company, signal to noise ration is all mesured at the receiving end of a line; then the modem make all the mesurements for the downstream and the DSLAM will mesure the upstream part. I will include an output of the modem that show what I am saying. It is an output of the mesured SNR from the modem, you will see that all the upstreams bands are at 0.0 db meaning ther was no mesure taken.
For the inside wire; it cannot be a problem because I am connect directly at the Bell entrance my line is what we call a dry loop, meaning there is no phone/voice service on it. My phone service is VOIP provided by an analog telephone adapter.
Modem ouput:
> adsl info --SNR
adsl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: ShowtimeRetrain Reason: 0
Channel: FAST, Upstream rate = 800 Kbps, Downstream rate = 7040 Kbps
Tone number      SNR
   0            0.0000
   1            0.0000
   2            0.0000
   3            0.0000
   4            0.0000
   5            0.0000
   6            0.0000
   7            0.0000
   8            0.0000
   9            0.0000
   10           0.0000
   11           0.0000
   12           0.0000
   13           0.0000
   14           0.0000
   15           0.0000
   16           0.0000
   17           0.0000
   18           0.0000
   19           0.0000
   20           0.0000
   21           0.0000
   22           0.0000
   23           0.0000
   24           0.0000
   25           0.0000
   26           0.0000
   27           0.0000
   28           0.0000
   29           0.0000
   30           0.0000
   31           0.0000
   32           0.0000
   33           -4.6875
   34           0.0625
   35           0.0625
   36           -6.0625
   37           0.0625
   38           0.0625
   39           -10.7500
   40           -11.5625
   41           -11.4375
   42           -11.3750
   43           19.6875
   44           24.1875
   45           27.8750
   46           30.9375
   47           33.8125
   48           35.8125
   49           37.6250
   50           39.4375
   51           41.0625
   52           42.6250
   53           44.0625
   54           45.6250
   55           47.1250
   56           48.6875
   57           50.1250
   58           50.9375
   59           51.6250
   60           52.4375
   61           53.1250
   62           53.8750
   63           54.6250
   64           55.5625
   65           53.3125
   66           52.0000
   67           55.7500
   68           56.3125
   69           56.2500
   70           56.1250
   71           55.2500
   72           56.6875
   73           56.6250
   74           56.6875
   75           56.7500
   76           56.5625
   77           56.6250
   78           56.6875
   79           56.6875
   80           56.3750
   81           55.7500
   82           55.4375
   83           55.5625
   84           55.4375
   85           55.0000
   86           54.7500
   87           54.5625
   88           53.9375
   89           54.4375
   90           53.8750
   91           54.4375
   92           54.4375
   93           53.1875
   94           52.6875
   95           53.2500
   96           53.3750
   97           53.0000
   98           52.8750
   99           52.9375
   100          52.4375
   101          52.5625
   102          52.0000
   103          51.9375
   104          51.5625
   105          51.3750
   106          50.6250
   107          49.2500
   108          47.8125
   109          46.0625
   110          44.0625
   111          42.1250
   112          42.2500
   113          43.4375
   114          45.4375
   115          47.3125
   116          48.9375
   117          50.1250
   118          51.3125
   119          51.6875
   120          52.0625
   121          52.1250
   122          52.6250
   123          53.1250
   124          52.8750
   125          53.2500
   126          53.6875
   127          53.4375
   128          53.5625
   129          52.7500
   130          46.1875
   131          51.9375
   132          48.6875
   133          52.9375
   134          53.4375
   135          53.3750
   136          52.1875
   137          53.5000
   138          53.3750
   139          53.1250
   140          53.3750
   141          53.1875
   142          53.3125
   143          53.3125
   144          53.0625
   145          52.8750
   146          52.7500
   147          52.1250
   148          51.9375
   149          51.7500
   150          51.8125
   151          51.7500
   152          51.3750
   153          51.3125
   154          50.5625
   155          49.9375
   156          49.1250
   157          48.5625
   158          48.2500
   159          47.3125
   160          38.3125
   161          46.6250
   162          46.5625
   163          46.5625
   164          46.8125
   165          46.7500
   166          46.8750
   167          46.0000
   168          43.7500
   169          33.0000
   170          41.0625
   171          46.1250
   172          48.1875
   173          49.1250
   174          49.3750
   175          49.6250
   176          49.7500
   177          50.1250
   178          50.3750
   179          49.9375
   180          50.0000
   181          49.7500
   182          49.4375
   183          48.3750
   184          45.8125
   185          38.3125
   186          38.0000
   187          45.7500
   188          48.3750
   189          49.3125
   190          49.6875
   191          50.0000
   192          49.8750
   193          49.4375
   194          49.1875
   195          47.9375
   196          49.5000
   197          49.7500
   198          49.2500
   199          49.5625
   200          49.5625
   201          49.4375
   202          49.6875
   203          49.5000
   204          49.5000
   205          49.3750
   206          49.3750
   207          49.0625
   208          48.9375
   209          49.0625
   210          49.0000
   211          48.8750
   212          48.8750
   213          49.1250
   214          48.7500
   215          48.7500
   216          48.6250
   217          48.1250
   218          48.4375
   219          48.0000
   220          48.4375
   221          48.1250
   222          48.0000
   223          48.3125
   224          47.9375
   225          47.5625
   226          47.8125
   227          47.7500
   228          47.5625
   229          47.1875
   230          47.4375
   231          47.3125
   232          47.5000
   233          47.7500
   234          47.1250
   235          47.3125
   236          46.8750
   237          46.9375
   238          46.8125
   239          47.5000
   240          47.3125
   241          45.3125
   242          47.0000
   243          47.4375
   244          47.5000
   245          47.3125
   246          47.3750
   247          46.8750
   248          46.5625
   249          45.7500
   250          45.5625
   251          44.8750
   252          44.3750
   253          42.8750
   254          40.4375
   255          0.0000

Would anyone have any idea about the setup that should be done to make this line work ausing ADSL2+

Thanks yours answers clarify a fews things.
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roseway

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Re: different values of attenuations
« Reply #7 on: August 05, 2013, 02:31:22 PM »

It's not uncommon for some modem/routers to report zero values for upstream SNR. I see that on my own system most of the time, but occasionally it does report the upstream values. Other models always report upstream as well as downstream tones. So it's not as simple as saying that the modem doesn't report upstream values. Similarly with the upstream SNRM, most modems report real-time values which change over time, but a few report a fixed value (as your does).

If you are connected directly to the phone line with no extensions, then it seems certain that there is some sort of line fault which is affecting your connection. But if there are phone extensions, then it's possible, though less likely, that something connected to an extension is causing the problem.
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kitz

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Re: different values of attenuations
« Reply #8 on: August 05, 2013, 04:34:14 PM »

>> going back to the value of 6 db for SNRM

6dB is the common figure used to set Target SNRm for adsl.

As roseway says you would normally expect to see this figure fluctuate over time....

... but it is possible that you have a very steady line,  for example I used to sit on an unwavering 3dB upstream SNRm (target SNRm was also 3dB) for months on end at the maximum configured upstream speed for an annex_m connection.
 
So having personally experienced this phenomenon for years, I don't think its too unusual to see a rock steady SNRm in line with the Target SNRm, if the connection is achieving a maximum configured upstream figure set by the DSLAM/MSAN.

That line isnt running at full power (9.8, 11.6, 9.7), so it actually has more to give than what the router is reporting if it was on adsl2+ and it appears to be currently restrained by limitations set on the DSLAM and/or G.DMT technology. 

Seeing G.DMT believes me to be that its adsl1, but I note full stats show some adsl2 framing info to do with error correction, so it could still be adsl1 with a DSLAM running in S=1/2mode just like some of BTw's MSANs were capable of in the days of MaxDSL.



As regards to the upstream attenuation, that just looks plain wrong.

1) The Upstream attenuation should normally be somewhere around half of the downstream.
2) If the upstream atten really was fluctuating by that much then surely the line would be sick and you would be seeing changes in SNRm or less sync speed.
3) All the other stats seem to show a healthy line

I therefore suspect its more likely to be a router reporting issue?

« Last Edit: August 05, 2013, 04:39:43 PM by kitz »
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adycast

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Re: different values of attenuations
« Reply #9 on: August 09, 2013, 08:24:23 PM »

I did a lot of reading lately, and according to ITU-T recommendations about xDSL; it is the responsability of HSTU-C (DSLAM, Etc...) to make the measurements for the tests on is receiving side (the upstream) and report the results to the remonte. Knowing that; the opposite is also true; it the responsability of the HSTU-R (xdsl Modem) to make measurements for the tests on is receiving side (the downstream) and report the results to the central site. In conclusion; if the is a reporting issue it seems to be from the HSTU-C being the DSLAM/MSAN/RDSLAM/RSLAM/etc... (given the name you wich)

Thanks for your help.
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ColinS

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Re: different values of attenuations
« Reply #10 on: August 09, 2013, 08:40:59 PM »

it is the responsability of HSTU-C (DSLAM, Etc...) to make the measurements for the tests on is receiving side (the upstream) and report the results to the remonte.
In conclusion; if the is a reporting issue it seems to be from the HSTU-C being the DSLAM/MSAN/RDSLAM/RSLAM/etc... (given the name you wich)
OK, so perhaps you should speak to Bell then, if you're unconvinced about what Roseway and others have observed from their experience here in the UK?  :-\
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kitz

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Re: different values of attenuations
« Reply #11 on: August 10, 2013, 01:20:57 PM »

The stats you see are reported by your modem/router.  As previously mentioned, you will always be connected to the same port on the same DSLAM (unless you change product or Service Provider), so unless theres a fault attenuation should always stay roughly the same.

Different routers calculate the attenuation differently, some calculate it at a fixed frequency, some calculate it as an average across all the available tones, and some calculate as an average across the tones in use.


What is attenuation{/url]

Quote
True line attenuation - or Insertion Loss - can be measured at the DSLAM at the exchange via diagnostic tests and this figure should remain fairly static. Our routers can give us an indication of how much the signal is attenuated as an average against all the frequencies that it uses.


Very often putting another router on your connection will give you different attenuation figures.


For example 2 different figures taken by two different routers within minutes of each other on my own line.  The line is short so possibly not the best example of a huge differnce.

Local Line Atten.:      9.5 dB
Remote Line Atten.:      7.0 dB

Local Line Atten.:      7.0 dB
Remote Line Atten.:      6.5 dB


Our routers do the best job they can at giving these figures.   Incidentally any test reports done by your ISP (in the UK here its called WOOSH) record the figures obtained by which ever router you have connected at the time.
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adycast

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Re: different values of attenuations
« Reply #12 on: August 15, 2013, 12:50:34 AM »

I did a lot of test lately, I also tried an other modem (a GNET BB2060 ADSL2+ no-annex M).
I got from it similar results, the value I get vary by  +- one Db at the most but I still get
differents values of Attenuation when I reconnect/reboot the modems with both modems and the values are similar.
And I still see a value of 6 Db for the SNRM on the upstream side. It convince me more that it is
a fix set value at the DSLAM/etc... and I wonder if they calculate anything with the setup they have?
Also my modem transmit power is always in the area of 12.5 Db +- .3 Db
which is a higher level than the domnstream tx power if this value is positive.
I will try to put up a sceen capture of the DSL




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kitz

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Re: different values of attenuations
« Reply #13 on: August 15, 2013, 12:57:53 AM »

Quote
And I still see a value of 6 Db for the SNRM on the upstream side. It convince me more that it is
a fix set value at the DSLAM/etc

Yes it is.. its called the Target SNR Margin

6dB is one of the most common Target SNR margins to be set.
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anything