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Author Topic: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon  (Read 6854 times)

4candles

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Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
« on: July 19, 2013, 05:28:31 PM »

Following on from the two recent WWII threads, I was pleasantly surprised to see this news item today.
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burakkucat

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Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
« Reply #1 on: July 19, 2013, 06:33:42 PM »

That is good news and about time, too.
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roseway

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Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
« Reply #2 on: July 19, 2013, 06:38:10 PM »

It was a different world then, of course. But yes, his contribution to our war effort was tremendous, and he should certainly be pardoned for something which hasn't been an offence for decades now.
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kitz

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Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
« Reply #3 on: July 20, 2013, 12:16:50 PM »

I agree that we should, the laws have changed since then and this country owes him this in recognition of what he did.
It just goes to show that no-one should be judged on race, colour, creed or sexuality, but instead for what good they do.
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guest

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Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
« Reply #4 on: July 20, 2013, 05:40:12 PM »

Not got a problem with gay people (cousin is gay) but pardoning people for "offences" which they WERE guilty of at the time is PC nonsense.
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4candles

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Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
« Reply #5 on: July 20, 2013, 06:31:09 PM »

I understand your point, rizla, and indeed it has been said that if Turing is accorded this 'privilege', then it will open the floodgates for a multitude of similar claims for retrospective justice.

However, without Turing's work, we might all be speaking German, and have no computers. His efforts were rewarded at the time by being persecuted into suicide, so I believe it's right that he should be a 'special case'.
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renluop

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Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
« Reply #6 on: July 20, 2013, 07:22:23 PM »

Does pardon equate to forgiveness? I'm not sure which is appropriate in cases such as this. Royal pardons are the way for the Crown, that can do no wrong, to wipe the slate clean of a conviction wrongly imposed. In Turing's case the conviction was correct at the time and the punishment option selected by him was legal. Therefore how can the Crown wipe the slate clean of a wrongly imposed conviction?

The whole idea is a nonsense! But some other way to restore his memory to its true worth needs be found. How, without unscrambling metaphorical eggs is the problem for those cleverer than I.
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guest

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Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
« Reply #7 on: July 20, 2013, 08:28:38 PM »

I understand your point, rizla, and indeed it has been said that if Turing is accorded this 'privilege', then it will open the floodgates for a multitude of similar claims for retrospective justice.

However, without Turing's work, we might all be speaking German, and have no computers. His efforts were rewarded at the time by being persecuted into suicide, so I believe it's right that he should be a 'special case'.

Turing was a genius but unless we are going to retrospectively "pardon" everyone who was found guilty of a crime which is no longer a crime then its PC nonsense.

Its like Blair "apologising" for the potato famine in Ireland (and BTW I have LOTS of ancestors who died there) - total unmitigated nonsense, designed for nothing other than puffing up the profile of the resident prime minister.

I would much rather see Turing´s conviction stand as it serves better to recognise the ignorance and religious nonsense of this country in years past - and in years future if the muslims get their way.
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UncleUB

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Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
« Reply #8 on: July 21, 2013, 08:48:54 AM »

Not got a problem with gay people (cousin is gay) but pardoning people for "offences" which they WERE guilty of at the time is PC nonsense.

I'm with Rizla on this one.

You cannot say he is a special case because of what he did for the war effort as this could open the floodgates for many,many more who see themselves as 'special' cases.
Knowing this country it could end up costing the taxpayer millions.
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kitz

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Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
« Reply #9 on: July 21, 2013, 01:46:19 PM »

hmmm..  Having listened to both sides, there are some good points raised.

There is no doubt that he was treated badly.
Yes it was unlawful at the time.
The whole issue surrounding his conviction iirc was a bit weird and almost smells of some sort of conspiracy. ie after he reported being burgled, and why wasnt his lover imprisoned/convicted.  But obviously he was in a vulnerable position I suppose.

It could well open floodgates..  what about Oscar Wilde (mind you wasnt he also into young male/paedophilia), but there must be more.

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Rizla also said something in his last post that I personally do find quite scary and its not only homosexuality that could be an issue.

This could well become a hot topic, so if you follow on please proceed with caution.   There is a fine line between racism (umm its not racist more religion?), being PC, and being too PC.... and being scared to voice fears, for fear of being banded anti-whatever.
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renluop

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Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
« Reply #10 on: July 21, 2013, 03:20:19 PM »

Turing was a genius but unless we are going to retrospectively "pardon" everyone who was found guilty of a crime which is no longer a crime then its PC nonsense.
I see another danger. If crimes committed according to previous laws can be pardoned (excused) retrospectively, what is to stop  the idea being turned on its head. What a beautiful idea for a State ; to make something you did in lawfully 2010, say, criminal, then arraign you and put you in prison for that!

The ideas raised by the baying chatterers do not come from democracy, however much they seem worthy.

We should have no truck with retrospective legislation, but sadly it has intruded in some tax legislation, I belive.
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JGO

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Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
« Reply #11 on: July 21, 2013, 07:59:40 PM »


"The ideas raised by the baying chatterers do not come from democracy, however much they seem worthy."

They seem to be guilty of muddled thinking.
Ignoring Turin's crimes ( and no one has mentioned suicide ! ) his contribution to code breaking and computers seem well worth a memorial. It would not be the first time a criminal gave good service to the country - non of us are absolutly perfect. How about a Turin scholarship - more use than a statue/pigeon roost !

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4candles

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Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
« Reply #12 on: July 22, 2013, 03:38:21 PM »

Many thanks for all the interesting comments.

The OP was made in light of the welcome advances in recent years in equality for gay people. It just seemed so unfair that a war hero should come to such an ignominious end, yet now it would all be so different.

On reflection, I am rapidly coming round to rizla's point of view.
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kitz

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Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
« Reply #13 on: July 26, 2013, 06:41:36 PM »

I see another danger. If crimes committed according to previous laws can be pardoned (excused) retrospectively, what is to stop  the idea being turned on its head. What a beautiful idea for a State ; to make something you did in lawfully 2010, say, criminal, then arraign you and put you in prison for that!

The ideas raised by the baying chatterers do not come from democracy, however much they seem worthy.

We should have no truck with retrospective legislation, but sadly it has intruded in some tax legislation, I belive.


hmmmm I will leave personal thoughts about 'throwing away the key' to one side...

But its interesting to see the position of Stuart Hall.   
At the time that the offences were carried out they supposedly carried a maximum sentence of 2 yrs.  Since then the law has changed and new legislation come into effect.   Hence the first sentencing of 15mths, which today on appeal has been doubled to 30 months.
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HPsauce

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Re: Hope for Turing posthumous pardon
« Reply #14 on: July 26, 2013, 06:58:02 PM »

Since then the law has changed ............... Hence the first sentencing of 15mths, which today on appeal has been doubled to 30 months.
Hmm, that's not the reason as I read it and it's a bit more complex/subtle than that.
All the specific sentences (for multiple crimes IIRC) are unchanged, what was altered was the way the multiple sentences would run, i.e. one would now be consecutive.
It is common for multiple sentences applied at the same time to run concurrently. The Attorney General appealed this on the basis that the overall effect would be too lenient in this case given the scope of the offences. This argument was accepted it seems.
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