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Author Topic: How long does DLM decide to change settings?  (Read 19626 times)

DeadMan

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How long does DLM decide to change settings?
« on: July 18, 2013, 01:47:27 PM »

Considering I have only been re-synced for less than a day I guess this might be a bit premature. I am asking someone on TB about this US SNR fluctuation issue but having to wait for the DLM to decide when it wants to up my sync rate and turn off interleave is a joke! Based on this short period, is my line showing too much noise at present for DLM to remove the choke?

P.S. can someone teach me how to interpret the errors so I know what is good and what is bad (How high or low should FEC, HEC, RSCorr be for instance over a period of time?)? That way I would not have to keep asking for help so often.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 03:14:57 PM by DeadMan »
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Black Sheep

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Re: How long does DLM decide to change settings?
« Reply #1 on: July 18, 2013, 03:52:40 PM »

FTTC DLM decides how to stabilise your circuit every day in the wee small hours. If you have had a lot of 'noise' or high error count, then it will take the appropriate action.

DLM is a topic all of it's own, I'm just answering the subject header. Others will be along I'm sure, to give their thoughts on error counts ?  :)

PS ..... welcome to the forum, bud.
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ryant704

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Re: How long does DLM decide to change settings?
« Reply #2 on: July 18, 2013, 06:16:48 PM »

I can't imagine you will be on FastPath or soon looking at those.

It appears you have some form of Interference, it looks like Electrical Interference to me but could be REIN.

You can see it on SNR graph at various points when the Interference starts, the interference could also be the reason why FEC count is high. Though it isn't the worst but also isn't the best, I've seen a lot worse!

Interleaving itself will reduce your bandwidth, I want to say it can be anything up to 20% as now needs to deal with the errors. If you fix Interference the rest should fall in to place, that is if you can track the source down.

A low amount of FEC errors are 50 - 1000 per minute. 1000 - 5000 I would consider to be above normal but in reality it's really nothing to worry about. High is anything above that per minute, you can see anything up to 1.2 Million errors per minute. This record is mine, I suffer from serve Electrical Interference and on top of that some REIN as well!

If you look at FEC and CRC error graphs, you have Interleaving and FEC enabled. If you're getting CRC errors whilst FEC is enabled, it is due to the MSAN not being able to handle the burst (possible SHINE, but your line looks clear of SHINE) and instead of FEC errors it had to force a CRC error instead.
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 06:22:33 PM by ryant704 »
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DeadMan

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Re: How long does DLM decide to change settings?
« Reply #3 on: July 18, 2013, 06:20:18 PM »

Thanks. My ISP are going to book an engineer. Not sure if it will help much (the US SNRM going up and down like that is odd. I hope he can find something causing it as I have tried all the usual things my end like turning off all electrical appliances and connecting to the master test sock with a RJ11 to BT cable).

Big problem is if the engineer does his testing whilst the US SNRM is in one of the 'good' periods he may find nothing. Ideally he should be here when it's in the low spells but I bet he won't be (he may still find nothing wrong though. I read that it sometimes requires a broadband specialist to visit to diagnose other issues like REIN).
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ryant704

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Re: How long does DLM decide to change settings?
« Reply #4 on: July 18, 2013, 06:25:02 PM »

That is correct, your normal Broadband engineer will simply run a line test. Couple of minutes later he will have the data back and see if it failed any tests, they will not investigate REIN issues. You would need to convince your ISP to send a REIN engineer though the wait is a bit longer your Broadband engineer due to lack of people trained to diagnose REIN. He will check in your house for REIN, if he doesn't find anything there he will then drive between you and the MSAN trying to detect REIN with his kit.

Can you post your Telnet stats as well please!
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 06:32:59 PM by ryant704 »
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DeadMan

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Re: How long does DLM decide to change settings?
« Reply #5 on: July 18, 2013, 06:32:55 PM »

Based on the above graphs with the weird US SNRM and errors reported do you think it's worth trying to get them to investigate? Or am I likely to get brickwalled as my connection is 'good enough' in their eyes.

Which xdslcmd ?
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ryant704

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Re: How long does DLM decide to change settings?
« Reply #6 on: July 18, 2013, 06:35:12 PM »

It really depends, if you are happy with your connection and you can do everything you wanted, then no I wouldn't bother.

If it was me though I believe they should provide their estimates, or at least within a couple of Mbps as they state on their website. I would get it investigated if it was me but if your happy with your connection and you don't really care then no.
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DeadMan

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Re: How long does DLM decide to change settings?
« Reply #7 on: July 18, 2013, 06:40:54 PM »

Is this the telnet info you wanted?

# xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 2
Max:    Upstream rate = 19705 Kbps, Downstream rate = 7290
Path:   0, Upstream rate = 16398 Kbps, Downstream rate = 6

Link Power State:       L0
Mode:                   VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile:          Profile 17a
TPS-TC:                 PTM Mode
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):        6.2             5.8
Attn(dB):        0.0             0.0
Pwr(dBm):        13.4            6.8
                        VDSL2 framing
                        Path 0
B:              41              47
M:              1               1
T:              64              64
R:              10              16
S:              0.0216          0.0931
L:              19299           5500
D:              1497            345
I:              52              64
N:              52              64
                        Counters
                        Path 0
OHF:            52076102                1050409
OHFErr:         281             1
RS:             3779267622              3516077
RSCorr:         1023720         79261
RSUnCorr:       24129           0

                        Path 0
HEC:            4647            0
OCD:            116             0
LCD:            116             0
Total Cells:    2157017261              0
Data Cells:     25990586                0
Drop Cells:     0
Bit Errors:     0               0

ES:             553             7
SES:            19              0
UAS:            117             117
AS:             90144

                        Path 0
INP:            3.00            4.00
PER:            1.72            5.95
delay:          8.00            8.00
OR:             115.97          37.59

Bitswap:        12592           3492

Total time = 1 days 4 hours 9 min 53 sec
FEC:            32311346                1694976
CRC:            11890           61
ES:             553             7
SES:            19              0
UAS:            117             117
LOS:            3               0
LOF:            15              0
Latest 15 minutes time = 9 min 53 sec
FEC:            4132            18
CRC:            0               0
ES:             0               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC:            8244            1467
CRC:            7               0
ES:             1               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
Latest 1 day time = 4 hours 9 min 53 sec
FEC:            217304          17912
CRC:            129             0
ES:             24              0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC:            1198783         162240
CRC:            10795           56
ES:             72              4
SES:            19              0
UAS:            97              97
LOS:            3               0
LOF:            15              0
Since Link time = 1 days 1 hours 2 min 23 sec
FEC:            1023720         79261
CRC:            281             1
ES:             57              1
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
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ryant704

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Re: How long does DLM decide to change settings?
« Reply #8 on: July 18, 2013, 06:57:52 PM »

Indeed it is!

INP:            3.00            4.00
                  DS               US

INP is protection, higher the value the more protection against noise/errors. 4 is concerning, especially since it's active on your Upload. It's the first time I've actually seen this, you have a serious form a of REIN or EI I would imagine. Talk to your ISP, provide the Information, though they should have access and request a REIN engineer. You also have a 8 delay on your  upload, this will be due to the implementation of INP being active on your line. Interleave is also applied on the US as well though this is probably due to INP being active again but just confirms you have problem with US snr.

Has there been any works between you and the MSAN recently?

Also can you post the pbParams as well please if you have them!

Also, I'm assuming this was a fail copy and paste part?

Path:   0, Upstream rate = 16398 Kbps, Downstream rate = 6
« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 07:04:00 PM by ryant704 »
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Black Sheep

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Re: How long does DLM decide to change settings?
« Reply #9 on: July 18, 2013, 07:36:17 PM »

Whoa. Lets just slow this down a mo. :)

The INP could have been applied because of a MPF fault, or non-filtering of devices, or excessive star-wiring blah de blah. Lets see what the engineers PQT test show first before we start requesting a REIN engineer.
PS ........ for info, an ISP can't request a REIN engineer, they can only request that the broadband engineer test for REIN. Seeing as most are not REIN trained, this is highly unlikely. However, if the engineer is adamant that it is REIN, by way of looking for 'trends' and other historical data, plus co-op'ing with the ISP's tier 2 tech guys, then only he/she can request a REIN task be built.  :)
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ryant704

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Re: How long does DLM decide to change settings?
« Reply #10 on: July 18, 2013, 08:00:16 PM »

If it was star wiring the SNR wouldn't change all of a sudden. You can easily tell it's REIN or EI. I was wondering about the REIN engineer.
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Black Sheep

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Re: How long does DLM decide to change settings?
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2013, 08:19:32 PM »

If an unfiltered phone was plugged in to a star-wired extention, the SNR would likely move when the phone was used. My point was that it could be anything causing the problem, and anybody perusing this thread may instantly jump to the wrong conclusion that it has to be a REIN issue !
A full circuit 'Health check' must be undertaken, before conclusions can be drawn. :)
 
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DeadMan

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Re: How long does DLM decide to change settings?
« Reply #12 on: July 18, 2013, 08:53:26 PM »

As requested. Also yes the previous copy and paste missed a few digits off upstream.

# xdslcmd info --pbParams
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 2
Max:    Upstream rate = 19649 Kbps, Downstream rate = 72908 Kbps
Path:   0, Upstream rate = 16398 Kbps, Downstream rate = 61992 Kbps

Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (868,1207) (1972,2783)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1963) (2792,3959)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (868,1207) (1972,2783)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1963) (2792,3959)
       VDSL Port Details       Upstream        Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate:      19649 kbps         72908 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power:        6.8 dBm          13.4 dBm
============================================================================
  VDSL Band Status        U0      U1      U2      U3      D1      D2      D3
  Line Attenuation(dB):  4.4     23.9    36.6     N/A    11.9    29.6    45.6
Signal Attenuation(dB):  4.4     22.9    35.5     N/A    11.9    29.6    45.6
        SNR Margin(dB):  5.6     5.8     5.8      N/A    6.2     6.2     6.2
         TX Power(dBm): -3.8    -19.3    6.4      N/A    10.4    7.8     7.0
#
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DeadMan

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Re: How long does DLM decide to change settings?
« Reply #13 on: July 18, 2013, 08:57:16 PM »

# xdslcmd info --stats
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 2
Max:    Upstream rate = 19649 Kbps, Downstream rate = 73136 Kbps
Path:   0, Upstream rate = 16398 Kbps, Downstream rate = 61992 Kbps

Link Power State:       L0
Mode:                   VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile:          Profile 17a
TPS-TC:                 PTM Mode
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):        6.3             5.8
Attn(dB):        0.0             0.0
Pwr(dBm):        13.4            6.8
                        VDSL2 framing
                        Path 0
B:              41              47
M:              1               1
T:              64              64
R:              10              16
S:              0.0216          0.0931
L:              19299           5500
D:              1497            345
I:              52              64
N:              52              64
                        Counters
                        Path 0
OHF:            56523363                2343045
OHFErr:         305             1
RS:             907423942               3669011
RSCorr:         1124826         85777
RSUnCorr:       25553           0

                        Path 0
HEC:            4877            0
OCD:            121             0
LCD:            121             0
Total Cells:    3074801918              0
Data Cells:     29299079                0
Drop Cells:     0
Bit Errors:     0               0

ES:             560             7
SES:            19              0
UAS:            117             117
AS:             97843

                        Path 0
INP:            3.00            4.00
PER:            1.72            5.95
delay:          8.00            8.00
OR:             115.97          37.59

Bitswap:        14383           3789

Total time = 1 days 6 hours 18 min 12 sec
FEC:            32412452                1701492
CRC:            11914           61
ES:             560             7
SES:            19              0
UAS:            117             117
LOS:            3               0
LOF:            15              0
Latest 15 minutes time = 3 min 12 sec
FEC:            1703            6
CRC:            4               0
ES:             1               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC:            8931            1101
CRC:            8               0
ES:             2               0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
Latest 1 day time = 6 hours 18 min 12 sec
FEC:            318410          24428
CRC:            153             0
ES:             31              0
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC:            1198783         162240
CRC:            10795           56
ES:             72              4
SES:            19              0
UAS:            97              97
LOS:            3               0
LOF:            15              0
Since Link time = 1 days 3 hours 10 min 43 sec
FEC:            1124826         85777
CRC:            305             1
ES:             64              1
SES:            0               0
UAS:            0               0
LOS:            0               0
LOF:            0               0
#
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: How long does DLM decide to change settings?
« Reply #14 on: July 18, 2013, 09:16:16 PM »

If an unfiltered phone was plugged in to a star-wired extention, the SNR would likely move when the phone was used. My point was that it could be anything causing the problem, and anybody perusing this thread may instantly jump to the wrong conclusion that it has to be a REIN issue !
A full circuit 'Health check' must be undertaken, before conclusions can be drawn. :)


I'd agree with Black Sheep, but I have also noticed a couple of things from data posted in this thread and the one in the TBB forum.

Looking at your snapshot graphs, your Hlog graph doesn't immediately jump out as reporting any bridged taps that tend to negatively affect sync speeds.
It is a little 'wavy' in the D3 band, but I don't think it's sufficient to be concerned about.

Although being connected to a Huawei DSLAM, we unfortunately can't see any upstream data in the Hlog, QLN & SNR graphs.
Upstream data is 'sometimes' reported when using a HG612 connected to an ECI DSLAM.

There is a small dip in the bitloading graph for the upstream U2 band that could indicate a slight issue though.

Your DS_OHF & US_OHF graphs look a little unusual.
Those spikes tend to be due to the harvesting program (HG612_stats.exe) taking longer than usual to harvest the data & calculate any differences from one minute to the next.

I have attached an example from my connection showing really steady DS_OHF data, apart from when my daily virus scan & virus definitions update kick in, more or less hogging all the PC's resources for a while.

When that happens, it can take much, much longer than the usual couple of seconds to harvest/calculate data before writing it to modem_stats.log.

So what spec is your PC & do you have a resource hungry program or programs running 24/7?
Take a look at maybe one hour's worth of data in the ERROR.LOG file (stored in the Ongoing_Stats folder)
Each minute's harvesting/logging event shouldn't take more than 3 seconds as an absolute maximum.

If the PC's spec is reasonable, no resource hungry programs are running & yet it still takes a long time for the harvesting etc, that may be some sort of a clue as to the cause (I don't know what it would point to though (yet)).

It does seem very strange that SNRM is affected to more or less the same extent in each of the 3 completely separated US frequency bands, yet the issue isn't there at all in the DS frequency bands that lie between the US bands (see the separate DS & US SNRM graphs near the bottom of your FULL_MONTY montage).


@ BS,
Have you seen any similar issues where only US SNRM is affected on a VDSL2 connection & if so, was it diagnosed as line fault?


How close is the modem to the PC?
The PC itself, its monitor, router/modem power adapters etc. etc. could actually be the cause of the interference that results in lowered US SNRM.

How close is the modem to any other electrical equipment and/or mains power cables/sockets & how close is it to the master socket.

Does any of the timings coincide with switching lights on/off?
I believe LED or flourescent lights can occasionally cause problems.

I see that you are currently running the connection via a dangly ADSL filter plugged into the master test socket, yet the issue is still present.
I suppose that means that unless something else is wired from the wrong part of the master socket, we can rule out any other internal telephone wiring issues.

You did completely remove the whole faceplate to get to the main test socket didn't you?

EDIT:

One other thought........
Is your modem's power adapter plugged directly into a mains socket or an extension lead, possibly including some sort of surge protection?


« Last Edit: July 18, 2013, 09:31:12 PM by Bald_Eagle1 »
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anything