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[Chrysalis]

thanks for the replies

@ Chrysalis - what makes you think that one might get vectoring and the other wont? seems a bit odd because there are ECI/ECI - ECI/Huawei - Huawei/ECI - Huawei/Huawei setups, from what ive read that vectoring will be required as either update of hardware or software at each end of the connection, so if ECI only had vectoring then it would only work on the ECI/ECI connections? - as BT have mixed them up it seems to me they now have to have a vectoring system that either works on same on both systems over all 4 setups , OR , they have to replace all Huawei (or ECI) stock installed in cabs and end users modems.

theres also the ISPs that might start using their own FTTC modems built into routers.. I know some ISPs are trialing such things already, if ISPs start dishing out their own routers for FTTC then this makes vectoring more difficult to pin down, or am i missing something?

burrak already said but in short BT seemed to be very shortsighted when getting their ECI equipment and they picked the models that dont support vectoring.  Probably to save the pennies on rollout. 

HG I am not sure how much work needs doing but I think is less than ECI cabinets.

Even if BT were able to get new ECI dslams free, they still would have to do manual work to install into cabinets, it seems unlikely to me.  But I guess we can always hope.

I think what might be more realistic is they will pick a few golden areas to get the swapout and areas yet to have rollout may get V41's.

Its also possible some areas have V41's already.   But the dslams with pics are showing M41's.

[Chrysalis]

The DSLAMs are already obsolete as BT is installing them.  E.g. the Huawei MA5616 has a new controller board (the CCUC) which support higher port density line cards.  With an enhanced subrack and newer firmware version (V800R311) the MA5616 already support vectoring, while the existing kit that's fitted in our cabinets does not.   As for the ECI, the V41 supports vectoring out-of-the-box, and yet the ECI M41 DSLAM is still being installed :-(

Vectoring is probably 3 years away (at least) before we start to see vector-enabled DSLAMs installed in street cabinets. And possibly 5+ years before vector-enabled DSLAMs are installed as replacements.

As with all technology, if BT hung around waiting for the next big technological leap to mature before investing, the company (and its subscribers) would be waiting for ever. 

cheers, a

sadly I agree.

A document posted on tbb from a HG shareholder report makes BT look even worse.

According to that doc BT were the first partner to trial vectoring with HG, its not saying when but BT is listed as the first, their trails started in 2009.  They have now 1.2million live customers worldwide using vectoring and what are BT doing? just now starting trials and as you said rolling out obselete ECI dslams, that will need changing if vectoring deployed.  BT suffers from some really bad management decisions.

the doc

http://www.telecompaper.com/news/huawei-promotes-vectoring-in-poland--949039

[waltergmw]

@ Chrysalis,

Perhaps one day Politicians of all persuasions and Public Servants will wake up to "One of the worst mistakes Humanity has made".
(Dr Peter Cochrane, formerly BT CTO, to the House of Lords enquiry.)

http://www.slideshare.net/PeterCochrane/why-ftth-fibre-to-the-home

Kind regards,
Walter

[c6em]

It's all very well people reflecting on hindsight that you/we/they should have bought something better at the time - but life is not like that.
I'll also bet that not many people practice what they preach when it comes to sorting out their own stuff in their own lives, whether that is cars/houses whatever which requires them to use their own money ........while at the same time moaning at companies for not doing it properely.

How many times do you come across things which have been bodged up by the previous owner, rather than being sort/fixed/ replaced totally at the time.  Why did they do it the way they did - 'cos it would have cost them a lot of money so they went for the best solution in terms of cost/benefit over the lifetime of their use of the equipment.

One can equally for example ask why manufacturers of 'cheap' washing machines/tumble driers/fridges even exist.  Surely if everyone has the attitude that you should buy the 'best' now on the basis that it will last a very long time then everyone should be buying stuff from top of the range suppliers like Miele/Siemens which will last 15+ years.  But the majority don't do they?  They look at the price and say Jeeeeez, I'm not paying that!

[Black Sheep]

So true c6em. It was perhaps only 13yrs (ish) ago, that we made 0.5Meg Fixed-Rate available to EU's. This was a progressive step up from the 56k dial-up, then the 64kbps ISDN or 128kbps channel-bonded version.

Then we progressed to 1 and 2 Meg Fixed-Rate products, before technology (AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, BUSINESS COSTS) allowed us to roll-out ADSL1/2/2+ to the general masses. Now, the same advancements have allowed the introduction of cost-effective Fibre products.

Folk need to appreciate that BT are a shareholding business first and foremost, Thatcher made sure of that. Ergo, when purchasing and installing advancements, I'm pretty damn sure that they don't just throw a load of old chicken bones on the table to tell them the way forward ?!.

If you guys who want FFTP badly, you can have it. You've been able to have it for decades, you just need to pay for it. 

[waltergmw]

@ BS,

I think most would be delighted to pay for FTTH at the prices B4RN charge for a symmetric 1 Gbps service !
They are a CIC so avoid being reamed by a monopoly !

Kind regards,
Walter

[Black Sheep]

With the greatest respect, Walt, (cos I know you lads are doing a great job), but B4RN's projects are miniscule in comparison to BT's FTTC/P/D roll-out.
The meat of this thread (as I see it), is around why certain technologies have been utilised, instead of hanging around and waiting to see what the next 'break through' might bring (semi-quoted from one of our forum intellectuals). None of us will know for sure exactly what brought about certain implementations, ie: Huawei or ECI or their internal specs, but I do know that there will have been an enormous amount of fact finding and decision making behind the final draught.

My point, in a nutshell, is that the powers-that-be will have made the right decision at that time, for their/our business. I agree with some other sentiments that lower-level management is flimsy, but they don't make decisions anything like what this thread is debating !!!

[Chrysalis]

So true c6em. It was perhaps only 13yrs (ish) ago, that we made 0.5Meg Fixed-Rate available to EU's. This was a progressive step up from the 56k dial-up, then the 64kbps ISDN or 128kbps channel-bonded version.

Then we progressed to 1 and 2 Meg Fixed-Rate products, before technology (AND MORE IMPORTANTLY, BUSINESS COSTS) allowed us to roll-out ADSL1/2/2+ to the general masses. Now, the same advancements have allowed the introduction of cost-effective Fibre products.

Folk need to appreciate that BT are a shareholding business first and foremost, Thatcher made sure of that. Ergo, when purchasing and installing advancements, I'm pretty damn sure that they don't just throw a load of old chicken bones on the table to tell them the way forward ?!.

If you guys who want FFTP badly, you can have it. You've been able to have it for decades, you just need to pay for it. 

yes.

But it cant be cost efficient for BT to be buying M41's then maybe replacing them a few years later.  that simply looks like a clear and simple cockup.  At the very least I would at least expect V41's to be going in now to new dslams.  The extra cost for doing that over the overall rollout cost would be trivial.  Its more expensive to replace existing hardware than to up the spec of new uninstalled hardware.

One reason for the short sightedness maybe that BT were not expecting to increase the FTTC speeds so quickly, I belive the 80/20 was a reaction to a VM change.  Initially it was only 40/10.

[waltergmw]

@ Chrysalis,

Around our patch there are even more basic implementation blunders which seem to be ongoing.
Installation of ECI128s instead of ECI 256s and installation of a single FTTC duct over long runs when it's obvious that two are required to install 4 off 100 pr and 2 off 50 pr (plus the fibre & telemetry cables).
This has resulted in one FTTC just having a total capacity of 150 lines and another 200 when both will quite obviously need the full 250 AND both having excavation works twice even to accommodate just what has now been installed.
Our third FTTC is also in the same difficulty but didn't have ANY additional PCP duct installed so has zero expansion capacity from the initial 100 pr.
Whilst this might satisfy the accountants by reduced spending in a year, doing a job three times instead of once seems crass stupidity and a significant unnecessary expenditure as well as significant damage risk.
I've even just seen one in Bramley with the large Huawei 288 now with only one duct when they started in Guildford always with two.
This seems to be going on all over Surrey too.

Kind regards,
Walter

Meanwhile in sunny Lancashire:-

[Chrysalis]

yes walter, I agree it looks like whats going on is the accountants are just looking at short term gains vs medium/long term gains.

It may be that an extra 5% on the FTTC budget would have been enough to tip it over the edge and have many areas unviable, so they choose to minimise initial cost and pay the price later even if its not efficent..

[Black Sheep]

I see it as a 'supply and demand' costing exercise. No business is going to over-estimate the take-up of a product, that would be financial suicide.
Walter, you state it's "obvious" the full capacity will be required at two particular Cabinets in your area. Try approaching your bank manager and ask for a loan to provide FTTH for the whole of Surrey, based upon the fact it's obvious everyone will purchase it. Poor anomaly ?? Possibly ? ............... but the issue is no business is going to work on 'If's, but's and maybe's'.

Additional 'civils', should expansion work be required, are not this problematic animal that is being alluded to. A bog-standard FTTC set-up, could see the 'Dig' work done, additional duct laid, surface reinstatement and cables pulled in, within a day. The extra 'civils' may not be required on a high-percentage of expansion tasks, as the in-situ ducts may have the capacity for the extra cables needed ?? The planning department have access to the 'Prints' that show all duct capacities.

I promise you guys, BT know what they're doing. They've been doing it for a lot of years, are a global leader in Telecoms, a blue-chip company who are showing healthy profits even through the triple-dip recession. If you haven't already got shares in BT, get them now by way of a mid to long-term investment, as they will grow as our hold on streaming TV grows.
Yes, they make mistakes, I see them daily at a lower level, but regarding this particular debate on this thread what you guys see as you walk past an excavation, or gain from chatting to a low-level engineer, doesn't mean that that is necessarily the whole picture. Plus, there are always going to be anomalies, but percentage wise across the many thousands of Cabinets supplied with FTTC, these will be miniscule to the nth degree.

I reiterate, they know what they are doing ................ that's why they are a massively successful business.

[Black Sheep]

'If you haven't already got shares in BT, get them now by way of a mid to long-term investment, as they will grow as our hold on streaming TV grows'.

I posted this on June 15th 2013 when the closing price was 312.40. Approx 8 months later, and today they closed at 413.
Over £1 gain per-share in such a short space of time, is pretty darned good for a low risk punt.
Hopefully the trend will continue and the mid-long term investments will bear much fruit. 

[NewtronStar]

'If you haven't already got shares in BT, get them now

You have let the cat out of the bag  we here in the UK were lead to belive that BT and Openreach were seperate companys  so when you buy BT share your all so buying into BT OpenReach & BTwolesale thats not good for competative BB market is it and deffo not good for the EU price wise

[Black Sheep]

Ha ha …… I hardly think it's groundbreaking news. 

Look at Nestle and what they own, without their brand name being plastered all over it ….. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Nestlé_brands …..

At least we let folk know that we are part of BT Group. Ha ha ….. seriously though, all I'm doing is to give my opinion as to how my company sees itself in years to come, in regards to the market place. Of course, nobody can predict for certain, but £1 per share growth in 8 months is a good investment in anybody's book. My opinion, it will steadily continue to grow.

Disclaimer …… believe it or not, I'm not a financial advisor. Shares can go down as well as up. 

[renluop]

The old Stock Exchange veterans ( pre Big Bang), often when a share rose, would sell enough to cover the original costs. That way, if the shares later went down, they did not make an actual loss.

And also "leave something for the next man", was smother motto