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Author Topic: Question about filters & faceplates  (Read 47092 times)

JGO

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #30 on: May 19, 2013, 07:49:48 AM »

" ive been looking at the NTE5 on RunITdirect and doesnt seem to have any mention of RF3 filter built into the faceplate? only the bellwire choke "

Two points. The RF3 isn't a ( frequency selective) filter as normally understood, it rejects in-band common mode interference only.  However by a bit of guesstimation, I reckon the leakage inductance will form a simple low pass balanced mode filter somewhere about 2 MHz i.e. OK for ADSL but liable to clobber VDSL near the cabinet.
 This seems a possible reason for it's omission ?

« Last Edit: May 19, 2013, 09:23:47 AM by JGO »
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burakkucat

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #31 on: May 19, 2013, 03:45:26 PM »

This thread seems to have developed into two separate sub-topics: (1) RF3 circuitry and the speculated addition to the latest NTE5s and (2) Over-voltage surge suppression.

This post is related to (2), the latter.

I decide to make some checks with that spare, early 1980s, NTE5/A (which had been lurking in the box of gubbins) and my Ohmmeter 18C. The insulation resistance was measured between the B-, A- and earth-wire screw terminals of the NTE5/A at both 500V and 95V DC.

At 95V, the insulation resistance for B to E, A to E and B to A was measured as infinity.

At 500V, the insulation resistance for B to E and A to E was measured as infinity. For B to A, the surge arrestor 'struck' and emitted a delicate violet glow. The insulation resistance was measured as 0.18 M ohm.

Unfortunately there was no possible way for me to hold the 'ON' button of the 18C depressed and to operate my camera, both at the same time. So I am unable to share an image of the glowing surge arrestor.  :no:
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asbokid

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #32 on: May 19, 2013, 07:29:20 PM »

Here's what the newest PCB looks like:
[..]

That's interesting.  Thanks for posting the images, Neil.   :)

Has Openreach disclosed the nature of problems that the Surge Arrestor can cause to a VDSL2 service?

cheers, a
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neilius

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #33 on: May 19, 2013, 07:54:03 PM »

I don't know, sorry, but found out whilst having a dig around Run-IT's forums, they said that it had happened but didn't say exactly why, well, not on the level we'd like to know, that's for sure! It's apparently relevant more to VDSL than ADSL. I'd imagine those old gas discharge units (hence why they glow I'd guess) might have some capacitance which could have an affect on AC at those really high frequencies. Another thing I noticed is in the much older NTE5s, it's a different shaped component with a different (lower) current rating.

I've also had mine removed for a while with no noticeable difference in ADSL performance. I don't really know of anyone who's tested the theory with fibre.
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ColinS

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #34 on: May 19, 2013, 08:25:35 PM »

As B*Cat says, this thread is growing many heads, and stretching memories ....
Quote
Therefore, my guess, and it's only a guess, is that T4 would be connected to Earth for old 'Earth Calling' systems
Quote
And it was even specified for domestic circuits before all the public exchange equipment was standardised onto the current 'timed break' recall. One old telephone, of 1980s vintage, that I have given to my brother in law for use as his bedside phone has a recessed switch underneath to select the recall method which will be used.
I believe that we may be merging memories here ... B*Cat's recollection references (timed and earth) recall which AFAIrecollect was a P(A)BX facility.  The switch he refers to allowed the same apparatus (great old word) to be used either on a subscriber (another great old word) line, or on a P(A)BX as an extension, in which case the earth recall allowed the P(A)BX operator to be alerted e.g. to come back and transfer the call elsewhere.  With further (A)utomation the operator was replaced with a further dial tone and/or the ability to dial another extension directly. Later, as he said, this was replaced by timed break recall instead.

'Earth Calling systems' may recollect something even further back - shared lines, in which the same line was shared by two parties.  For billing reasons, the normal 'off-hook' loop seizure could not identify the calling party on a shared line, and therefore 'earth calling' on either the A or B leg did so instead.

Also, and I appreciate I could be way off beam here, some (at least) of the references to 'surge arrestors' might be conflating the old pre-1959 lightning strike idea (open copper drop-wires then) with 'surge suppression' as in bell-tinkle.  Remember at the ~1983/4 changeover, backward compatability was required with existing loop-disconnect phones.  The difference between extension wiring before then and after is more or less predicated around using 'high impedance' bell (more likely tone) circuits with no need therefore for 'bell tinkle (or surge) suppression', as opposed say, to the good old GPO 706 'modern' telephone [1], with a low impedance bell and the need for 'bell tinkle suppression'.  The bell tinkle suppression circuit in the 706 used a thermistor as a 'surge suppressor'.  It is (at least) possible that older NTEs may have had to have a similar device for compatability with older phones.  It is worth noting that 'newer' phones at that time would still (theoretically) have caused 'bell tinkle' if used in loop-disconnect mode, if it wasn't for the fact that the high impedance of the tone ringer did its own 'bell tinkle suppression'.

Confused?  You will be!  ;) :)
[1] http://www.samhallas.co.uk/repository/po_docs/ep_draft_telephones_1_1.pdf
« Last Edit: May 20, 2013, 12:39:37 PM by ColinS »
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burakkucat

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #35 on: May 19, 2013, 08:32:32 PM »

With the higher frequencies of VDSL2, when compared to that of ADSL2+ (or POTS), the intrinsic capacitance and inductance of such surge arrestors must become significant.

Very much so, would be my guess, for the gas-discharge glow devices.  :(
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snadge

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #36 on: May 20, 2013, 01:12:00 AM »

With the higher frequencies of VDSL2, when compared to that of ADSL2+ (or POTS), the intrinsic capacitance and inductance of such surge arrestors must become significant.

Very much so, would be my guess, for the gas-discharge glow devices.  :(

so your saying 'in theory' the surge arrestor could have an effect on VDSL2..? in layman's terms what kind of effect are we talking about?  ;D
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asbokid

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #37 on: May 20, 2013, 01:26:03 AM »

IIUC, an impedance mismatch is introduced between the (network-side) drop wire / CW1308 and the 26A, and then another unnecessary mismatch on the subscriber-side between the 26A and the patch cable to the modem. Those mismatches would cause reflection losses in the signal, as the waveform/s bounce back (both upstream and downstream). And those reflection losses could cause frequency-dependent noise and DSL signal attenuation.   Could be wrong though!

cheers, a

edit: cw1308
« Last Edit: May 22, 2013, 10:01:45 AM by asbokid »
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burakkucat

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #38 on: May 20, 2013, 01:32:07 AM »

As the frequency increases, I speculate that the 'shunt effect' becomes more significant and thus the signal is further attenuated.

ASCII Art

------------------------------------------------------------------------------
^ B-wire ^                  |
                                |
                               O  <--- Surge arrestor, acting as a frequency dependent shunt, applies a load across the pair.
                                |
                                |
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
^ A-wire ^
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snadge

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #39 on: May 20, 2013, 01:58:55 AM »

...standing on the shoulders of giants here...  :graduate:

can I ask? - is it in an engineers remit to replace the NTE5 (if it was older) when he comes to install and setup an FTTC connection (for this reason)..?
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burakkucat

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #40 on: May 20, 2013, 02:05:29 AM »

I think it is best that the answer comes directly from the Sheep's mouth!

There is no one better qualified to say what is the latest directive, from 'them upstairs'. ;)
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Black Sheep

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #41 on: May 20, 2013, 07:29:28 AM »

Ha ha, B*Cat.

Our remit is to ensure the NTE5 is an Openreach branded one. Some (the older ones) are embossed, some (the newer ones) are printed format, either will suffice.
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ColinS

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #42 on: May 20, 2013, 09:50:22 AM »

...standing on the shoulders of giants here...  :graduate:

can I ask? - is it in an engineers remit to replace the NTE5 (if it was older) when he comes to install and setup an FTTC connection (for this reason)..?
Well, as B*Cat suggested, BlackSheep has given you the definitive answer, but going back to my original post, the SFI who came out to me changed mine as a matter of course.  Whether or not the BTOR/contractor engineer tasked with the installation would do so might depend on whether you asked (as I am sure you would), and whether (s)he had one in the van and could be bothered going back down to get it for you.  Lots of tea and biscuits has been known to work!  ;) :)
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neilius

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #43 on: May 20, 2013, 10:18:49 AM »

And so this leads to another question.  ;D

Have the newest Pressac NTE5As without the surge wotsit filtered down to BTOR? When I was in conversations with Run-IT, the batch of branded boxes they had still had it but their newer unbranded ones didn't.
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: Question about filters & faceplates
« Reply #44 on: May 20, 2013, 10:30:17 AM »

Here's what the newest PCB looks like:
[..]

That's interesting.  Thanks for posting the images, Neil.   :)

Has Openreach disclosed the nature of problems that the Surge Arrestor can cause to a VDSL2 service?

cheers, a


FWIW, I had an engineer's visit this morning to investigate why my current sync speeds have deteriorated to currently more than 25% lower than estimated speeds.

During the visit I did ask the engineer if there would be any mileage in swapping the pcb for a newer one without the surge arrestor.

He hadn't heard of a new one & gave me blank looks when I showed him the photos of a pcb with & a pcb without a surge arrestor.

So, whatever the differences are in terms of VDSL2 performance, information-wise they don't seem to have 'filtered' through to engineers yet.

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