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Author Topic: BT no vat cease charge  (Read 18469 times)

icanbefound

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Re: BT no vat cease charge
« Reply #15 on: May 07, 2013, 10:21:54 PM »

Hello Kitz  The plot thickens if not plots. Sorry I cant find a section "5" of the Tariffguide example but it does look like the cease charge is sometimes vated. Starting to wonder that you have to keep some original copy of your contract in writting.  I must admit that I dont have anything that looks like the original contract with bt which brings me to a next set of questions!  what's the difference between btretail and btwholesale and btopenreach and btbroadband and is there a just a bt? 

The other question that I have is that I have noticed that if I had moved to a new house and requested something called a mac number to be transfered there that there would have been no charge.  Two questions- why would I want a macnumber to be transfered and would it not require more "work" to be done in stopping the broadband at the first address, moving the macnumber and connecting a broadband at the new address than just ceaseing the broadband at one address and leaving the macnumber there?
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kitz

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Re: BT no vat cease charge
« Reply #16 on: May 08, 2013, 05:59:49 AM »

>> Sorry I cant find a section "5"

On Page 25 -

Section 5 deals with ending the service within the minimum period.  ie before your contract has expired.  Quite correctly this is classed as compensation and is not subject to VAT.
Quote
5. Ending the service
Unless we have made a change to the prices or terms and conditions that is to your material disadvantage or paragraph 5 of the BT Total Broadband service terms applies you must pay a charge for ending BT Total Broadband within the minimum period by way of compensation to us. This charge will be calculated by multiplying the number of months remaining in your minimum term by 7.75 for Option 1, 11.50 for Option 2 and 11.75 for Option 3. The charge for Broadband Anywhere will be calculated in the same way using the following values;
17.25 for Broadband Anywhere 50, 25.25 for Broadband Anywhere 150, 27 for Broadband Anywhere 250, and 30.25 for Broadband Anywhere 600. This charge will not be subject to VAT

Section 6 specifically deals with the Cessation Charge and shows that it is subject to VAT.

Quote
6. Cessation Charge
A cease charge of 30.00 (Inclusive of VAT) is payable if you cease your broadband service and do not request and use a
migration access code or another recognised transfer process to move to another service provider. This charge is not raised if you
are moving home and BT is unable to provide the service at the new address.


>>>  Starting to wonder that you have to keep some original copy of your contract in writting

Attaching a copy of the tariff pdf to this post for the sake of posterity.  That is their official tariff guide, you should use it to quote to them if needed.

I notice in there the same applies for BT Infinity (Page 28).
Early termination fee is non VATable
Cessation fee is subject to VAT.


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kitz

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Re: BT no vat cease charge
« Reply #17 on: May 08, 2013, 06:26:44 AM »

Quote
what's the difference between btretail and btwholesale and btopenreach and btbroadband and is there a just a bt? 

Hopefully this page should explain it :- http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/BT.htm

Quote
The other question that I have is that I have noticed that if I had moved to a new house and requested something called a mac number to be transfered there that there would have been no charge.  Two questions- why would I want a macnumber to be transfered and would it not require more "work" to be done in stopping the broadband at the first address, moving the macnumber and connecting a broadband at the new address than just ceaseing the broadband at one address and leaving the macnumber there?

A Mac Key is used if you move broadband to another ISP.   - See Changing ISP - Migration and MAC key

There is no fee for the issuing of the MAC key, but there are BTw charges in relation to the physical line move.
Quite often the ISP will swallow these costs as an incentive for you to move to them.   
The costs are listed in ~ How much does it cost to migrate my broadband? and you will see they are subject to VAT

Those prices are correct as I changed them just last week due to a new price list that came out on 1st May 2013.  The varying amounts of charges reflect the amount of work involved by the BT Openreach.

If you are moving house and wanting your service to be resumed at your new property then you should use Simultaneous Provision and a LORN.  This too involves BTw/BToR fees, but again your Service Provider may swallow some or all of these costs to retain your custom.
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icanbefound

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Re: BT no vat cease charge
« Reply #18 on: May 08, 2013, 10:31:31 AM »

Thanks Kitz.  I stand amazed by your knowledge of these matters and am glad to have found you.  I hope that I am not taking liberties. 

I must admit that I am struggling with it all.  It is interesting that a mac key is not a mac code.  I have seen it mensioned and was worried that not having a mackey might be a problem to me in the future.  The mac key seems to be nesessary for some seamless move from one address to another.  If one was not too concerned about the seamlessness of the move does one need a mac key?  What I mean is if I closed down an account and then a few weeks later decided to have a new account at a different address would a mac key be needed?  I presume that the connections would still have to be pulled from the old account by an openreach engineer and new connections made for the new account before this mac number could be used or is it some kind of purchase order number?

Thank you for the section 5 and the official tarif presumably verified by Ofcom.  Looking at the compensationary aspect of closing the account, in section 5, before the end of the contract which is not the situation that I was in.  Presumably bt still has to ask openreach engineers to pull connections somewhere and Openreach would still be chargeing bt that fee with the vat on it?  I also presume that when a switch is made from one isp to another on the same line btopenreach has to charge both isps for the work involved? 
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kitz

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Re: BT no vat cease charge
« Reply #19 on: May 08, 2013, 02:49:35 PM »

Hopefully the Migration and MAC key page explains it in more details, but to cut to the generalised basics

- a MAC key goes with the order and ensures that when the BT Frames engineer pulls your tie pair wires from the patch panel belonging to ISP "X" then he then inserts them into the patch panel belonging to ISP "Y".

Before MAC keys, a move to a different ISP, would mean that you had to cease adsl with ISP 'X' and only after that order had been completed could you place a new order with ISP 'Y'.  This meant that some customers could be without broadband for up to 4 weeks whilst swapping their ISP.   

The MAC key in the above case is used to tie the 2 orders together and ensure that both re-wires of the tie-pair are done at the same time. Downtime is usually in total no more than 30mins whilst the engineer does the re-jumpering.

In the case of BTw -> BTw based ISPs this can now be done electronically/remotely at the RAS.  The customer stays on the same patch panel and traffic is diverted to the correct ISP realm by RAS controls.  The MAC key is used to put the users connection from ISP 'x' to ISP 'z'.

Using a MAC key is cheaper because its one job instead of 2 separate jobs.

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kitz

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Re: BT no vat cease charge
« Reply #20 on: May 08, 2013, 02:51:44 PM »

Quote
>>> What I mean is if I closed down an account and then a few weeks later decided to have a new account at a different address would a mac key be needed?

A MAC key is not applicable in this case, the MAC is intended so that both pieces of work are carried out at the same time.  Otherwise its a cease and a later re-provide.  As you say it could be kind of thought as a purchase order... only its a reference which ties the 2 purchases together as one.

Quote
>>> in section 5, before the end of the contract which is not the situation that I was in.

Correct

Quote
>>> Presumably bt still has to ask openreach engineers to pull connections somewhere and Openreach would still be chargeing bt that fee with the vat on it?

Correct

Quote
>>> I also presume that when a switch is made from one isp to another on the same line btopenreach has to charge both isps for the work involved? 

Nearly.   If a MAC is used then the loosing ISP doesnt have to pay a cease fee.  The gaining ISP picks up the bill.  How much this is depends on the type of migration.

 ~ WBC <-> WBC migrations = 11.00 + VAT.  This is because it can be done remotely and simply a re-direction of ISP realm.
 ~ LLU --> WBC = 39.79 + VAT. 
An engineer is involved to re-jumper the tie pair.   However if its done at the same time using a MAC and therefore only one order... its cheaper than 2 separate orders of cease @ 24.74 +VAT and new connection @ 39.79+VAT






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kitz

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Re: BT no vat cease charge
« Reply #21 on: May 08, 2013, 03:10:50 PM »

PS  Ive just looked at the replies youve been given on MSE.

The first reply is correct about compensation not being VATable, but unfortunately I think he assumed that was the fee you were being charged ie early termination and not cease.  It seems to now be apparent that the cease fee should be VATable.

The second response isnt correct. :/
Its too long ago since I sat my exams as a Financial Advisor in a past life, so I didnt comment earlier on which aspects are vatable and which arent.. because I really cant remember the tiny ins and outs and all the different rates of tax on everything. 

But one of the things I know for sure is that BT (whichever dept) will be liable to pay VAT.  They will have their VAT bill to pay on any goods or service that they sold as VATable.  Deducted from this amount will be any VAT they have paid.

This is the reason why in my post here I was unsure if they should be claiming that the cease fee is zero rated tax... because it could be considered fraud against the IR, by not passing on the VAT element and 'pocketing' the 5.06 for themselves.

The fact that they quite clearly state its VATable elsewhere leads me to think that someone has made a b00b on their site and that they are (or at least should be) passing the VAT element of your 30 on to IR.
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icanbefound

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Re: BT no vat cease charge
« Reply #22 on: May 09, 2013, 12:04:42 AM »

Hello Kitz.  I am not so sure that someone writing the small print has made the "actual" boob, instead I feel that maybe Ofcom have tried to pretend that they understnd honesty.  They asked, it appeares as an after thought, for an only and actual cost for a "cease" charge.  I dont see how such a thing can exist when all the other charges might incorporate or not part of "cost" related to the practicalities of the physical engineering particuarly in a contract that would imagine compensaytionary non-vatable penalties.  None of the costs are actual or only, there in lies the madness. 

I live in a relatively remote part of broadband world of rural Lincolnshire- a part too far from the exchange to get a reliable connection. So for example for an actual cost I imagine that the engineer lives even further than me from this exchange, Swaby, and that the engineers journey costs to and from the exchange is a substantial part of their costs unlike in suburbane Croydon.  Ofcom also used the word "fair".  My intuition is that this cease charge is not fair because 30 cannot be actual in any shape or form in all actual cases.  They have also connected theses costs into connecting up new accounts with this mackey.  As you say you could wait up to 4 weeks for a new connection to be made.  Its probably because no body ever went to the exhange panel mdf thingy in the first place or had to in the second to connect it.


so I am into a rant and have lost the plot.  I will probaly pay the bloody bill but should I take this only and actual issue to Ofcom?
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kitz

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Re: BT no vat cease charge
« Reply #23 on: May 09, 2013, 01:41:55 PM »

Sorry, but Im not sure if I fully understand what you meant above?

I dont think taking it to OFCOM would'nt get far, because there is some element of work involved with a cease even if its a RAS change.   LLU cease could cost more - especially to a remoter exchange -  so I guess they average it out.    I do personally think 30 is a bit steep for a cease though as far as the EU is concerned.

I fully understand why they can reduce the cost if theres a MAC involved....  the engineer is there anyhow cause hes going to be moving the wires from A to B so it probably only takes a couple more minutes to do a LLU MAC move than it would a cease. 

BS may be able to confirm for sure that it wouldnt take too much longer to move a tie pair than it would to remove it and give a better idea of the time scale.

I think the main issue is that if it should be a VATable service, when BTr are claiming on their website that it isnt.  Despite their official tariff saying it is.
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Black Sheep

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Re: BT no vat cease charge
« Reply #24 on: May 09, 2013, 06:08:49 PM »

Sorry, but Im not sure if I fully understand what you meant above?

I dont think taking it to OFCOM would'nt get far, because there is some element of work involved with a cease even if its a RAS change.   LLU cease could cost more - especially to a remoter exchange -  so I guess they average it out.    I do personally think 30 is a bit steep for a cease though as far as the EU is concerned.

I fully understand why they can reduce the cost if theres a MAC involved....  the engineer is there anyhow cause hes going to be moving the wires from A to B so it probably only takes a couple more minutes to do a LLU MAC move than it would a cease. 

BS may be able to confirm for sure that it wouldnt take too much longer to move a tie pair than it would to remove it and give a better idea of the time scale.

I think the main issue is that if it should be a VATable service, when BTr are claiming on their website that it isnt.  Despite their official tariff saying it is.

It really is dependant on the size of the MDF, Kitz ?? Some 'Frames' are enormous and can be either 2-tiered, U-formed, split over different floors in the Exchange, or as with Wigan two MDF's in two different buildings (approx. 400mtrs apart) linked via extra tie-pairs !! Bolton and Warrington are difficult MDF's too, or should I say 'different' ??.

Recovering old ties is pretty straightforward and generally requires both ends disconnecting and gently pulling the jumper-wire out to avoid jumper-burn. If the wire is too tight and will cause more damage than good by yanking on it, then it just gets left in the jumper bed.

Having to re-run ties takes a while longer. An 'average' Exchange may see the task time set at 20mins to achieve this, others may have a 40min time allocated to it ?? Add wrong 'mapping' details given to us, No Dial Tone, or DSL Port not opened, faulty 'Ties', and ages on the phone trying to resolve these issues with the CP/ISP, and it can add up to well over an hour !!
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kitz

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Re: BT no vat cease charge
« Reply #25 on: May 09, 2013, 08:02:08 PM »

>> An 'average' Exchange may see the task time set at 20mins to achieve this, others may have a 40min time allocated to it ?

Thank you BS for the clarification and info. The MDFs Ive seen have all been in 'rows' - even a large exchange where the DSLAMs were split over a couple of floors - so its good to note that additional time is allocated for the more tricky MDFs
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icanbefound

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Re: BT no vat cease charge
« Reply #26 on: May 09, 2013, 08:08:18 PM »

Sorry Kitz I lost the writing plot last time. 

Quote
I think the main issue is that if it should be a VATable service, when BTr are claiming on their website that it isnt.  Despite their official tariff saying it is.
I think this still stands but it is complicated by the ofcoms actual and only costs for a cease whether vatable or not (should make it vatable) but should not make it a fixed price of 30 for all.  Ofcom also said the cease charge was "probably fair".  It then does not seem fair that if someone moves from one isp (ceases from it?) to another using a maccode that there should be no charge.  Apart from who is paying for this freeness (and does and who does openreach charge) what seems odd is that it implies that the isps are in collusion or odd that btr is covering any connection charges for the next isp.  Are bt covering connection charges for the next isp?

Black sheep may I ask how the charges are made between Openreach and btbroadband for any works undertaken by the engineers in these exchanges.  Is it by time allocated, actual time or some other method?
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Black Sheep

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Re: BT no vat cease charge
« Reply #27 on: May 09, 2013, 08:22:15 PM »

icanbefound ........ I honestly have no idea how any of the costings are calculated. That is decided way above my pay grade and tbh, is of no concern to the engineers. As you can imagine, competition in this market is fierce and tariffs change almost daily. One ISP may charge for something another ISP is willing to foot the bill for themselves, in order that they get your business ??

Sorry, I am of no help whatsoever with billing.

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Black Sheep

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Re: BT no vat cease charge
« Reply #28 on: May 09, 2013, 08:29:07 PM »

>> An 'average' Exchange may see the task time set at 20mins to achieve this, others may have a 40min time allocated to it ?

Thank you BS for the clarification and info. The MDFs Ive seen have all been in 'rows' - even a large exchange where the DSLAMs were split over a couple of floors - so its good to note that additional time is allocated for the more tricky MDFs

Yes, Kitz .... that is certainly the norm for MDF layouts. However, with the advent of LLU and in some Exchanges, limited floor space, the planners came up with the 'U Frame' whereby there is a 'Bridge section' bolted onto the original MDF that runs at 90 degrees for a particular distance to where there is space to install additional 'Verts' to accommodate all the extra 'Equipment blocks'. This is offset at 90 degrees to the 'Bridge section', therefore looking like a 'U'' shape when completed. Hope this makes sense ??
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icanbefound

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Re: BT no vat cease charge
« Reply #29 on: May 09, 2013, 11:09:44 PM »

Blacksheep (as it happens I went to Masham last week and did the tour around the Blacksheep brewry last week, they seemed quite proud about their yorkshire square "vats" but I was quite interested in the fact that the original lightfoot building was based on a tower design)

sorry but it appears that Ofcom think that somehow that for my cease charge to be fair it must be based "only" on "actual" costs, which seems to me to be something that can actualy only be to do with pay graded engineers doing things with "U" frames here or bridge frames there and the administration there of.  One of the reasons that I am in my presant debarckle is that I asked bt customer services if I could move my email addresses from one bt broadband account to another broadband account and I was told that I could not unless I cesseased the first acoount and hense incur the 30 non VAT charge. I still dont understand that nor believe that is not possible. I am not saying that I wanted to keep my original broadband but I wanted to keep my btyahoo email addresses as thats how everybody I know has communicated with me for the last 15 years. 

Just as an aside theres this btFon thing going on which I think bt seem to miss a "trick" on.  I was, still am through my partners account, on Fon.  I have tried to return the broadband box but bt customer services have said that I can keep it even though I have been quite insistant that since this bother with the cease charge I am worried that they may charge me for the equipment which as far as I was informed was suppied "free" so long as I agreed to a "contract" which seems to be where bts' compensationary vatfree charge model comes from.  What I wonder is why doesnt bt say keep the broadband box , keep it on and stay in as a fon user.  They seem to sell it as a simple exchane in which you allow your physical location to be a transmitter in exchange for you being able to access it worldwide.
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