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[huwwatkins]

Hi
I had my FTTC connection installed on Monday - it was done by a contractor, Quinn something or other. The installer did not seem very competent.

I was under the impression that most of the time the installer will jumper the pair in the PCP then come to your house. Mine came to my house first to put a tone tracer on my line "No way can I find your line in all those pairs"

20 minutes later he comes back. Installs Openreach modem, leaving it on the floor. Attempts to do a call back ( I assume to get some line info?) this fails and no further attempt is made. Modem is plugged in "if it syncs its fine" i'm told.

The phone line in this house hasn't been used for years and there is a junction box in the cubby hole out front that looks quite old. None of this was checked and no line tests were carried out. Can someone tell me if they should have been?



Am I justified in being rather unimpressed?

I was estimated to get 46meg. Initally the modem synced at around this mark ~44000. Within 24 hours the sync had changed to 44800. Less than another 24 hours it has dropped back to ~44000 and today its now synced at:

Downstream rate = 41677 Kbps

My attainable rate has started at 45800, went down to ~40,100 and s back up now at 48372.

DLM seems to have added some INP and delay where as before it was 0

INP: 3.00 0.00
PER: 2.54 8.36
delay: 8.00 0.00
OR: 75.56 30.61


Also my FEC has gone up a lot - is this anything to worry about?

My total line stats:

Link Power State: L0
Mode: VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile: Profile 17a
TPS-TC: PTM Mode
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 6.2 6.2
Attn(dB): 0.0 0.0
Pwr(dBm): 13.4 3.3
VDSL2 framing
Path 0
B: 51 237
M: 1 1
T: 64 36
R: 12 16
S: 0.0397 0.9291
L: 12897 2187
D: 815 1
I: 64 127
N: 64 254
Counters
Path 0
OHF: 24774264 1538334
OHFErr: 39 92
RS: 2047144998 1455025
RSCorr: 3030767 121
RSUnCorr: 959 0

Path 0
HEC: 210 0
OCD: 7 0
LCD: 7 0
Total Cells: 769134334 0
Data Cells: 5284400 0
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0

ES: 4605 332
SES: 88 0
UAS: 212 212
AS: 63192

Path 0
INP: 3.00 0.00
PER: 2.54 8.36
delay: 8.00 0.00
OR: 75.56 30.61

Bitswap: 7399 1068

Total time = 1 days 1 hours 9 min 1 sec
FEC: 3030767 546
CRC: 39 539
ES: 4605 332
SES: 88 0
UAS: 212 212
LOS: 10 0
LOF: 10 0
Latest 15 minutes time = 9 min 1 sec
FEC: 8312 5
CRC: 0 0
ES: 0 0
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
FEC: 8612 2
CRC: 0 2
ES: 0 2
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Latest 1 day time = 1 hours 9 min 1 sec
FEC: 398735 14
CRC: 4 6
ES: 1 6
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0
Previous 1 day time = 24 hours 0 sec
FEC: 2632032 145
CRC: 35 117
ES: 916 102
SES: 10 0
UAS: 21 21
LOS: 5 0
LOF: 5 0
Since Link time = 17 hours 33 min 11 sec
FEC: 3030767 121
CRC: 39 92
ES: 15 78
SES: 0 0
UAS: 0 0
LOS: 0 0
LOF: 0 0

Am I worrying over nothing here?

Thanks

[waltergmw]

Hi Huw W,

You are one of the unfortunates but the chances of getting BT to change their ways are remote.
You may be lucky enough to prove you have a substandard installation and raise a fault, although you will be threatened with a charge if no fault is found.

You should check that a dial tone is present and then do a 17070 option 2 quiet line test to monitor the line condition which should be completely silent.
You can also do a 17070 option 1 ring back test which just might discover a high resistance fault if the modem drops sync.

You should also do both parts of a BT speed test and record the results if you can. This is not possible for e.g. TalkTalk lines.

You should inspect the house wiring including the junction box to check for star wiring, but you should not tamper with any wires before the master socket. You should only have a single solid colour pair coming in (White & Orange or Black & Green usually) and a striped colour pair going directly to your new master socket fitted with the new SSFP. It should have a socket for a telephone plug AND a RJ11 modem cable socket.

Please take pictures if you find anything amiss.

Black Sheep here on this web site, a practising BT Openreach engineer, will probably confirm that a fully trained engineer equipped with a JDSU or EXFO test instrument is quite capable of finding your pair within the PCP Green cabinet, testing the line and the service configured on the appropriate tie cable pair BEFORE visiting your house. Most will usually ring in advance to say they are reconnecting your service too.

It would be wise to record the estimated line performance on the BT Wholesale broadband line check site.

http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/adslchecker.welcome

If your line performance is well below the estimate and your "fault" is investigated you will frequently find the Wholesale estimate is reduced, thus relieving BT Openreach of the pleasure of repairing the line. (I believe the line speed has to be less than 50% of the estimate before BT will consider investigating the fault.)
(BS Please tell me if this is incorrect.)

You can also go here:-

http://www.bt.com/help/home/

Then "Report a fault" and select "Report a fault on line" in the second panel down entering your details.
Sadly this often does not diacover a fault and you will be told so.
If you are lucky it will automatically raise a phone fault for you.

If you have to report a broadband fault it's usually easier to do so via on line chat recording the whole conversation.
I usually prepare all the evidence with screen shots and put the data in a PDF file together with a repeat of the data you had to enter before you started the chat. I then upload the PDF file to BT immediately they start the conversation.

Kind regards,
Walter

PS I have discovered and had BT Openreach rectify four such installation horrors in Ewhurst with very significant speed improvements.
Do remind the engineer to request the DLM logic on the line is reset preferably whilst he is still with you.

[Black Sheep]

I personally think the OP is worrying over nothing, to use his own quote.
I can't possibly comment on what the Quinn's engineer has done, or should have done, regarding the old junction box and wiring etc etc, as I have no idea how your house is wired up ?? Folk seem to think that because a wire is over 'x' amount of years old, that it isn't fit for purpose, or that because a junction box looks old, then their DSL service wont work. Let me put your mind at rest, IF the wiring is installed correctly for DSL signals (ie: no bridged taps), then the junction box could have been whittled out of wood by Jesus' father, it won't have any adverse affect on the circuit.

Most VDSL lines will adjust downwards, and off the top of my head, I think the actual figure can go as low as 80% of you estimated synch speeds ?? I haven't got time to begin trawling through the minefield of information we receive to back this up, but it's a figure that comes to mind.

DLM will view your circuits performance and make the necessary adjustments via interleaving on a daily basis. All in all, I'd leave the circuit alone and let it bed in before you make any calls for an engineer to visit. As\Walter has pointed out, you will be charged for the visit if it's deemed as uneccessary.

Speed test results should only be obtained via an Ethernet cable, not wirelessly, for 'Fault raising purposes.

[waltergmw]

@ Huw W

You alone have to make a decision on whether to leave things as they are or attempt to improve your performance.
It would be very rare if your performance improves on its own but sometimes other network changes can improve it.
Otherwise you can confidently expect some degree of degradation over time as Bald_Eagle1 has documented on this web site.

It seems as if your line is configured for the faster option yet you aren't achieving much over the cheaper option.
Your performance isn't that far from the estimate which is just that.
It's certainly not a perfect line but we don't yet know its approximate length.
You can obtain an estimate of that figure from here:-

http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adslchecker.php

I do agree that the age of the equipment is irrelevant but the wiring configuration is important.
You might be lucky that the wiring is perfect but an un-checked line with a junction box has the potential for an unsatisfactory wiring configuration.
You would certainly not be the first to discover incorrect wiring.

An Ethernet-cabled BT Speed test from here will also provide an indication of line quality where you can compare the sync speed to the throughput speed.

http://speedtest.btwholesale.com/

Kind regards,
Walter

[huwwatkins]

Hi
Thanks for your replied – apologies for the late response.
Quiet line test doesn’t seem to work properly on a TalkTalk line as dialling 17070 just reads out the circuit number and hangs up, although lifting the receiver and pressing a number and listening reveals no unusual noise, possibly a slight hum – but as the phone line comes in to the house parallel to the main electrical cable that might be unavoidable?
I can’t do BT speed test as it’s a TalkTalk line.
I do not have star wiring, the line comes underground to the house, up in to a little broom cupboard where the elect and gas meters are and then in to a junction box, then from there it does about 60cm through the wall and in to the BT NTE5 master socket on the other side.
My estimate was 46.3 – as per your suggestion I will take screenshots of this just in case.
My line seems to be getting worse, having initially synced at around 46000k it then dropped to
41667kbps with INP of 3 and delay of 8, over the weekend it dropped further. Now my stats are:

Path 0
INP: 6.00 4.00
PER: 2.51 11.57
delay: 15.00 6.00
OR: 76.41 31.08

New sync:

Max: Upstream rate = 9187 Kbps, Downstream rate = 46808 Kbps
Path: 0, Upstream rate = 7016 Kbps, Downstream rate = 38898 Kbps

Pings are now up in the 40’s to places like bbc.co.uk which is a little bit disappointing as my ADSL was sub 20.

I am in two minds whether to ask talktalk to send an engineer. Had a proper Openreach engineer done the install and done proper line checks I would be happy that this was all my line could do, but considering the standard and attitude of the subcontractor there is always that niggling doubt that things could be better.

Talktalk say that should an engineer turn up and find either a) a problem with my internal wiring or b) no fault then they will charge me £50.

[waltergmw]

Hi again Huw,

The TalkTalk 17070 is not the same as the full BT test facilities which also provide additional tests if you are a BT engineer too.

(@ BS am I correct in thinking that Openreach do have access to some tests on a TT LLU line, but perhaps only via the JDSU ?)

It would be prudent to ensure that maximum separation from all mains wiring is achieved - in particular avoid high power PIR lighting cables like the plague. Trying to plot the movements of cats, vermin and foxes etc. is particularly challenging !

You can do the first part of a BT Speedtest as I've demonstrated below on my VM Coaxial Cable modem.
Perhaps others would like to comment too but it is normal to see some degradation in the period after an installation is completed.
It is however a question of degree.

Some might suggest a £50 charge is not unreasonable, particularly if you get an enthusiastic BT Openreach engineer.
Most will agree with you, but perhaps not actually denigrating subcontract engineers.
There can be little doubt that any engineer without the correct test equipment and test procedures cannot possibly verify the line quality nor recommend any remedial action. This might be exacerbated as there does not seem to be any remote line performance analysis or, if there is, it does not usually trigger any investigation except perhaps in extreme cases or when there is a complaint from the EU.

You can eliminate your internal wiring by plugging a dongle filter directly into the test socket within the master socket and connecting the modem to it.
(Assuming the NTE5 is wired correctly and there is no star wiring internally or externally.)

You have a valid complaint if the engineer did not install the correct integral filter faceplate (or SSFP as it is called sometimes).

Kind regards,
Walter

[huwwatkins]

Hi
I do not consider the £50 charge excessive, I am just weighing up the likely hood of it doing some good I think. I am ~550m from my cab so would have hoped for a bit more than 38meg. Maybe I'm being too hopeful!

I will do the first half of the speed test later on when I get home.

I have no internal wiring connected and from what I can see the phone line goes straight from the master socket to a junction box that looks like a green/brown version of this:

Then it goes underground in to a duct and on its merry way.

Proper face plate was installed.

[Black Sheep]

Hi again Huw,

The TalkTalk 17070 is not the same as the full BT test facilities which also provide additional tests if you are a BT engineer too.

(@ BS am I correct in thinking that Openreach do have access to some tests on a TT LLU line, but perhaps only via the JDSU ?)

It would be prudent to ensure that maximum separation from all mains wiring is achieved - in particular avoid high power PIR lighting cables like the plague. Trying to plot the movements of cats, vermin and foxes etc. is particularly challenging !

You can do the first part of a BT Speedtest as I've demonstrated below on my VM Coaxial Cable modem.
Perhaps others would like to comment too but it is normal to see some degradation in the period after an installation is completed.
It is however a question of degree.

Some might suggest a £50 charge is not unreasonable, particularly if you get an enthusiastic BT Openreach engineer.
Most will agree with you, but perhaps not actually denigrating subcontract engineers.
There can be little doubt that any engineer without the correct test equipment and test procedures cannot possibly verify the line quality nor recommend any remedial action. This might be exacerbated as there does not seem to be any remote line performance analysis or, if there is, it does not usually trigger any investigation except perhaps in extreme cases or when there is a complaint from the EU.

You can eliminate your internal wiring by plugging a dongle filter directly into the test socket within the master socket and connecting the modem to it.
(Assuming the NTE5 is wired correctly and there is no star wiring internally or externally.)

You have a valid complaint if the engineer did not install the correct integral filter faceplate (or SSFP as it is called sometimes).

Kind regards,
Walter

Walt, the test access on a TT line, are the same as for every other LLU line. Those being the Eclipse/Fast Test, and a PQT test using the JDSU/EXFO. Only on BT cLassic lines can we interpret DSL in-depth, via WHOOSH. With LLU we have to engage in a co-op call with that particular ISP's front desk. Some are more clued-up than others, as with all things these days.