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Author Topic: I don't see the point of what Opera want!  (Read 6325 times)

dave.m

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I don't see the point of what Opera want!
« on: December 14, 2007, 08:39:24 PM »

I donít understand Operaís wrangling here about MS and browsers!
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/technology/7143912.stm
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In a statement Opera said it wanted the Commission to make Microsoft separate IE from Windows and pre-install alternative browsers on new PCs.
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Itís bad enough going into some computer shops now where you can buy a certain model of PC with XP Home, or XP Pro, Vista Basic, Vista etc. etc. Imagine having the selection increased threefold because each one would have to come with IE7 or Firefox or Opera.
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There doesnít appear to be much point in the argument because as soon as you get home with your shiney new PC you can download the alternative browsers for free.
OK. Add a pamphlet in the box with the benefits of the other browsers and instructions for the newbie to be able to download them (for free) when they are up and running. But that is about all that is required.

dave
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kitz

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Re: I don't see the point of what Opera want!
« Reply #1 on: December 14, 2007, 11:52:00 PM »

hmmm interesting... I can actually where they are coming from here.

When I first "went online" you had to download get a browser which was normally on your ISPs installation disk.  Back in 1997 I chose Netscape which I stuck with for several years.  I can remember the days when something like 95% of users did use Netscape.. I also remember going "wow" at Netscape Gold. 

Then at some point M$ started pre-installing IE with the OS..  and within about a year or so, the shift had gone from 95% Netscape to 90% IE.
Netscape did themselves no favours with NS7? and even I abandoned it at that point.

These days I use a combination of browsers, but I find IE the most bulky and I'm really not just saying this.. but IE7 really doesn't seem to behave well on this machine. :(

Who else remembers the gawd-awful M$ Virtual JavaMachine that came pre-installed in about 1999..
.....   or M$'s JScript version of Javascript that practically broke most sites unless you used IE?
Luckily Sun won that case.

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exo

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Re: I don't see the point of what Opera want!
« Reply #2 on: December 15, 2007, 12:25:02 AM »

Hi, it all depends on which side you are viewing it from.

Anyone with a reasonable knowledge of computer, will be fully aware of the alternative programs that are available.

Unfortunately, many users do not fall into that category and merely accept what is offered by their Windows operating system. The more that Microsoft includes within their operating system, the more disadvantaged third party software creators will become and therefore our overall choice will be diminished in the long term.
Without competition, what will stop Microsoft charging whatever they want for their products.

Microsoft is the major supplier for computer operating systems and they will wish to keep that monopoly for all of their products.  Their previous business history has shown that they can be quite ruthless when it comes to squeezing out the competition. I haver no doubt other businesses will also use various tactics to ensure their monopoly and therefore secure their future and profit margins.

Opera has a small market share. In order to survive, they need to increase that share.

Without the competition from Firefox and Opera, do you think Microsoft would have improved the security of IE?
It was not until they began losing market share to Firefox that they decided to make the overdue improvements to IE.
Long may we have competition to Microsoft.

exo
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Floydoid

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Re: I don't see the point of what Opera want!
« Reply #3 on: December 15, 2007, 05:28:40 AM »

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Opera Software said the close ties between Internet Explorer (IE) and Windows made it hard for rivals to be a serious choice for web users.

For me there is no choice... Firefox is far superior.  I can't speak for Opera as I've never used it.

BTW didn't we also have a similar argument about unbundling Media Player from from XP/Vista?
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jabns

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Re: I don't see the point of what Opera want!
« Reply #4 on: December 15, 2007, 05:29:56 AM »

IE is the most annoying piece of software ever. Microsoft just don't like sticking to the w3c rules.

When making a website you have to do the css for the good browsers and then make a JS that applies seperate CSS for IE (IE7 is better but not perfect).


Opera was the best web browser IMO for PDAs but they made you pay for it which is where it went wrong for me. If you are trying to get something noticed make it free and involve the community. It worked for firefox.


I also think it would be nicer to see the old "select browser tool" although it would be interesting to see how you would configure a router(without telnet) if you did not have a browser and had lost the CD. It would be hard to download an OS without working internet. Just a thought for families without 2 or more PCs.

James
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jabns

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Re: I don't see the point of what Opera want!
« Reply #5 on: December 15, 2007, 05:32:00 AM »

Now MS offers a version of XP with WMP yes.
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Floydoid

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Re: I don't see the point of what Opera want!
« Reply #6 on: December 15, 2007, 05:40:17 AM »

I don't really see the point of unbundling media player, as WMP is actually pretty good, and the main alternatives QuickTime and Real both like to take over your system.

Come to think of it all you need is Media Player Classic.
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guest

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Re: I don't see the point of what Opera want!
« Reply #7 on: December 15, 2007, 10:59:01 AM »

Its at least 5 years too late. We've been here before with IE, WMP, backup, Windows Defender.........

The EU can't hit MS with a fine large enough to make MS change their ways - they've tried and currently MS are playing along, but I've seen it all before.

The US DoJ tried and failed too.

MS have enough money to buy the required number of lobbyists (for that is all politicians are now) and make the worst of the "problems" disappear in ANY country in the world.

Most multinationals are the same - Cisco are (IMHO) way WAY worse than MS in these matters.
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Floydoid

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Re: I don't see the point of what Opera want!
« Reply #8 on: December 15, 2007, 11:38:16 AM »

Well I'm certainly not going to be forking out the best part of 200 quid for Vista.  MS have had a stranglehold on the home PC market for far too long... if they had a serious commercial rival then maybe their products would be better, and more reasonably priced.  Perhaps the PC manufacturers/retailers are to blame too by only supplying systems with MS products pre-installed.


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guest

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Re: I don't see the point of what Opera want!
« Reply #9 on: December 15, 2007, 06:11:26 PM »

MS make it VERY easy for even small (in volume terms) system builders to put together an "OEM" install package which minimises support calls - ie it has a  nice easy way of putting the machine back to the way it left the system builder. MS used to "court" hardware manufacturers to ensure they made DOS/Windows drivers, nobody else did that.

I know that Linux can do the same but the consumer doesn't ask for Linux, nor do most small businesses.

No easy answers I'm afraid and my "OS Wars" days have long gone, but IMHO the last (consumer) version of OS/2 still kicks Windows senseless and that was 13 years ago! We won't even talk about what BeOS could do because I'll start weeping :D

Windows is (IMHO) the lowest common denominator in operating systems. Everything else can do what Windows can do (and more) apart from the proprietary stuff. I still use it so I don't know what that says about me  :lol:

If you want someone to blame for MS then blame IBM. It is almost entirely due to IBM incompetence that MS are where they are today.

Gods I have a dreadful sense of deja vu typing this :lol:
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Floydoid

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Re: I don't see the point of what Opera want!
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2007, 08:32:03 PM »

I think the thing with Linux is that many people are cautious about anything that is free... the 'too good to be true' syndrome.

It reminds me of when I was doing some call centre work trying to 'sell' free training to employers... it was totally legit stuff from what was the department of employment.  It was nigh on impossible to give away.

Us British are a funny lot.

Ho-hum
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guest

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Re: I don't see the point of what Opera want!
« Reply #11 on: December 16, 2007, 09:47:23 AM »

I found that small businesses were mainly put off by support. Small businesses need to be able to call someone local to fix problems. Easy to find someone with MCSE training (yes I know MCSE isn't exactly hard) but close to impossible to find anyone with Linux skills. They want to see more than one or two suppliers with Linux expertise too as PC supply/support companies go bust daily.

Next came the number of distros - small business wants something that's around in 5-10 years, and I think this is where the "free" issue occurs. Small businesses look at it and think "If nobody is making money from this then what's to say it'll still be supported in 3 years?". They have a point, even if they don't really understand that a different distro is NOT an entirely new operating system, as training costs will be incurred when moving to a new distro.

Last of course is hardware - even now you have to do a fair bit of research to :

a) find out if the device has Linux drivers;
b) find out if the drivers have reduced functionality;
c) find out whether the manufacturer actually wrote the drivers, because if they contracted it out then the chances are that the drivers will never be worked on again.

That's just from a small business viewpoint. Many larger businesses do use Linux but usually for fairly specific purposes - network infrastructure, hosting etc etc.
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Floydoid

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Re: I don't see the point of what Opera want!
« Reply #12 on: December 16, 2007, 10:06:20 AM »

Yeah and it all comes down to the MS dominance over the years, hardware support is geared towards windows simply because the latter is by far the dominant player in the market.

Oh yeah to answer an earlier point, we all know the history of how Billy Gates was IBM's second choice for writing them an OS.
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guest

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Re: I don't see the point of what Opera want!
« Reply #13 on: December 16, 2007, 03:53:16 PM »

Yes Floydoid but its also worth pointing out that NONE of the other operating system manufacturers of the late 80s/early 90s courted hardware manufacturers like MS.

Even back then they saw that the way to maximise sales was not to make something the best, but to make it the easiest and (at the time) the cheapest - being able to use lots of pieces of hardware was one of the best ways to achieve that. There weren't any versions of Unix back then that you could call "friendly" in terms people today would understand. Heh at the time I found VMS more logical than Unix.

Back then of course MS made less cash than Wordperfect did :D
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dave.m

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Re: I don't see the point of what Opera want!
« Reply #14 on: December 16, 2007, 07:00:20 PM »

After the very interesting history lessons about computers (Thanks everyone), I still feel that as a computer really needs a browser to get started just leave IE on Windows systems but, as my last paragraph stated :
OK. Add a pamphlet in the box with the benefits of the other browsers and instructions for the newbie to be able to download them (for free) when they are up and running. But that is about all that is required.
dave
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