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Author Topic: Trouble with router I think...  (Read 26384 times)

chrissie

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #15 on: April 16, 2013, 03:13:13 PM »

Hi again sorry for the delay in getting back and thanks too Ian for your help.

This is what I've done today if you can bear with me. 

Router box was on - all 5 lights working and I used it with the laptop in a different part of the house and then turned laptop off.

Router box left on and all lights still working I switched the UNIT on and left it running. The online light went off 3 -4 mins later then came on again 2 mins after that. 

I then put the screen on and all lights were on and still on 5 mins later - I did nothing just left unit and screen on.

I then clicked on IE to come up which it did and tried to connect, all lights were still on for 2 minutes then the online light went off and "Page can't be displayed came up" on screen.  I clicked on RESET CONNECTION but online light still off and 2 mins later online light came on but "Page can't be displayed" still there.

All lights still on...left it for 3 minutes then tried IE again. Online light went off after 2 minutes and IE was still trying to connect.  I closed IE page down, turned the router box off and also PC

I then switched the PC on with router box off, went into AVG security to try to disable "web browsing protection" but I didn't know how to do it without messing about so left it.  Then I switched the router box on, no connection came up on screen. I did the troubleshoot for connection it came up with it was "ok you can access some sites".  I switched the PC off, left router on - all lights were on.  Switched pc on, screen came up ok clicked on IE and it came straight on connected to the internet.

I then did virus update as it hadn't been done lately due to being unable to connect to internet, it completed it and computer with internet was still connected and working.  I shut it all down and started PC up again with router box on and the internet connected straight away.
 NB- when I say turned PC off I mean shut it down as per usual.

I don't know what to say, what happened or if it will work next time I start the PC up <scream>.....so if you kind guys have any clues or info as to what was going on I would love to know please.  Thanks for all your hard work and helping me with all your great thoughts and suggestions.  I just hope the PC behaves itself from now....and I'm keeping my fingers crossed it doesn't get temperamental again - dare I say, watch this space.....

Chrissie
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ColinS

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #16 on: April 16, 2013, 04:15:40 PM »

 ??? I'm going to have to lie down in a darkened room for a little while 'till I can get my head round that, Chrissie.  I will reread it again (probably several times) and see if I can say anything sensible that might help.  At the moment I am:
1) Confused  ???
2) Pleased that it appears to be working now for you  :)
3) but worried that it is only chance :(

I'll think it over and get back to you soon.  In the meantime, Ian may be able to draw his own conclusions.  :)  I must admit I was beginning to be attracted to the possibility that it was the router PSU acting up.  How long have you had this live box Chrissie?
« Last Edit: April 16, 2013, 04:23:14 PM by ColinS »
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chrissie

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #17 on: April 16, 2013, 04:27:00 PM »

Hi Colin....think I need a lie down too after that little lot.  Confused?  Me too LOLOL.  The router box is 6 years old I think...was all ok until "you know who" (Windows 8) invaded its space  >:(  Yes I know, all things have their sell by date - even moi....but gawd 'elp me if I have to get another box because I would not know where to start or what to do.  So...sshh don't speak too loudly when talking about it   ;) I don't want it to hear just in case  :lol:

I will try the PC tomorrow again just to see if a) I wasn't imagining it being on line haha and b) that it wasn't a one off little miracle that occurs when one threatens to punch a piece of equipment's lights out!  >:D

Chrissie
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sheddyian

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #18 on: April 16, 2013, 05:56:37 PM »

Yeah, I'm wondering if it's the power supply for the router that's failing.

Anyway, so far you've proved that it's not interference from the monitor that's causing it.

It's interesting that it stabilised for a bit with the PC switched on, but when you started using it then it all failed again.  That's what's making me think it's the power supply that's just balancing on a knife edge - it doesn't take much to tip it over and the thing resets.

Since you were able to use it OK with the laptop, what happens if you connect the laptop to the router using the ethernet cable instead of wireless?  Does it then cause the router to reset?

I wouldn't get bogged down with AVG or firewall or anti virus - whilst that could cause you connection errors on the PC, I can't think of a scenario where it would make lights go out on the router or cause the router to lose it's connection.

The problem here is the router behaving oddly, which (it seems to me) is either the power supply failing, the router failing, or some sort of interference from the new PC upsetting it.

Since the laptop works fine wirelessly, try it connected via ethernet instead - does the router like that, or does it reset/lose connection?

That way we can narrow down the problem a little.

Ian
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #19 on: April 16, 2013, 06:20:19 PM »

Folks, don't discount software bugs.

When the PC comes up it can start various forms of chatter with the router, such as DHCP or UPNP. 
It is possible that these packets may contain nad data that crashes the router.   It is also possible that the packets are fine, but use features that expose bugs in the router, causing it to crash.

I did find one exampe of this ( lost the link) whereby the DHCP packets from XP SP3 enabled some new feature, that exposed a bug in firmware of some routers, causing them to crash.   This specific example is not Chrissie's problem - it was too long ago - but there is always the possibility of a different, though similar problem.

@Chrissie... only constructive suggestion from above.... Have you checked to see if there are any firmware updates for the router available?


anyways, sorry for butting in on a thread already well managed.   I'll go back to sleep again now. :)
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ColinS

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #20 on: April 16, 2013, 09:18:50 PM »

Sure Ian definately:
Quote
The problem here is the router behaving oddly, which (it seems to me) is either the power supply failing, the router failing, or some sort of interference from the new PC upsetting it.

including interference as 7LM suggested, as in
Quote
don't discount software bugs.
in W8!  :hmm:

The striking thing to me in Chrissie's latest report from following your suggested steps, is that the resyncs are displaced in time (e.g. 2 mins or so) from other things (e.g. switching on the PC, or monitor, or ...). So, unless it is a randomly timed occurence of a PSU (say) hiccup, which it could very well be, then perhaps it is a different type of interference in what's being passed over the ethernet from W8 to the router that it doesn't like, just like 7LM suggested  :-\

One of W8's things is this 'constant on' business, whereby it is constantly updating tiles and whatnot by default, whether you want it to or not.  So, it's also _possible_ that some of this traffic is somehow 'interfering' with the router, like the examples he gave.  :(

We just don't know enough yet to pin it down, until Chrissie is able to try your other suggestions.  I'm quite sure though that she would very much prefer it if it just stayed 'fixed' and we all had to write it off as one of life's little mysteries.  ;D

The other thing that 7LM mentioned (thank you for that too), relates to the fact that she 'fixed' it herself by 'resetting' the connection - although I _really_ don't know exactly what W8 means when it told her _some_ sites are now accessible!  :lol: There used to be an old bug in XP that needed the Winsock layer catalogue to be reset in some circumstances, otherwise it prevented any meaningful connections.  :(
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chrissie

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #21 on: April 17, 2013, 09:27:33 AM »

Morning all,

This really is a quick fly by, just glanced at your replies for the moment but will deffo look fully later.  I have had router on for an hour all lights on.  Switched PC and (forgot to tell you this..doh) as yesterday first time on, the PC came up "welcome - preparing windows" - on  blue screen and just doing nothing.  I pressed escape on keyboard...it then came up with metro screen BUT only 4 - 5 icons, same as first time on yesterday.  I then closed it all down.

Switched router off - then PC on, it came up with full screen but ONLINE light off and all other lights on router.  Got the desktop window up, clicked on troubleshoot connection which it did and ONLINE light came on router.  Then it connected to the internet. SCREAM.  I haven't a clue about this but ever thankful for all your help. 

The taking ages first time when switched on and not coming up with full metro (or whatever it is) screen, is this Windows 8 bug or just a glitch as I know it didn't happen when I switched it on after I bought it....or has/is router doing summat to it?  Sorry to be a pain in the proverbial...but just trying to give all info to you.

Thanks again everyone, appreciate all your thoughts and help. 

TTFN
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kitz

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #22 on: April 17, 2013, 10:06:45 AM »

Just to let you know chrissie that I have been reading, but Ian and Colin etc have always git there before me.  I too went through wondering about most of the things Ian had already mentioned, but I must admit I'm now at the not sure stage.

I know this may be a long shot but what does anyone else think about putting routerstats on and seeing if it picks up any trace of EMI..  I would have thought the monitor would have been the obvious suspect, but I think one of Chrissies earlier tests ruled this out.   From what's been said so far it could be clutching at straws..   But it may just show something up.
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ColinS

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #23 on: April 17, 2013, 10:12:56 AM »

The taking ages first time when switched on and not coming up with full metro (or whatever it is) screen, is this Windows 8 bug or just a glitch as I know it didn't happen when I switched it on after I bought it....or has/is router doing summat to it?  Sorry to be a pain in the proverbial...but just trying to give all info to you.

Well Chrissie, I wouldn't swear to it, but it's possible that something caused W8 to invoke it's _automatic_ recovery process, which if the circumstances were such, might even have caused it to 'repair' (more or less 'reinstall') W8.  That might account for a) the time it took b) the 'preparing windows' message you got - which normally happens at a certain point in Windows installation and c) the fact that that not all the tiles had been rebuilt on the Metro screen at the time you pressed 'Esc'.  :o

Just my poor attempt to explain what you saw.  :-\

When an OEM builder is installing W8 (or in fact anything from Vista/W7 onwards) on a completely new HDD, Windows will actually create 2 partitions on the disc, Boot & System, I think it normally calls them.  The Boot partition is normally hidden from view but contains the (BCD) boot information needed to load windows from the system partiton (which will still become your C: drive).  As time has gone on (Vista/W7/W8) this has been extended to include a full-blown recovery partition.  So on the Boot drive there is also the stuff that is needed (a Windows Image file .WIM) to allow it, if needed, to in effect repair windows by reinstalling it!.  The (BCD) boot info also contains an 'instruction' in effect to tell Windows loader 'if the normal load fails on you, please recover by loading this .WIM instead).

It's part of their drive to make W8 in effect more of a 'consumer' product that the person using it doesn't need to know anything about.  However, it can be rather  :scare: if you're not expecting it and don't then understand what's going on!

This is also why the (BCD) boot instructions are not on C: but in this hidden Boot partition - it's to (try and) stop us messing about with them - Daddy MS knows better!

[Edit] If this has happened yesterday and today, then I would think there is something definately 'not quite right' in the installed W8, irrespective of whether or not this has anything to do with the observed behaviour at the router.  It shouldn't be repairing itself on a regular basis!!!  :(
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 10:52:15 AM by ColinS »
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ColinS

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #24 on: April 17, 2013, 10:23:21 AM »

I know this may be a long shot but what does anyone else think about putting routerstats on and seeing if it picks up any trace of EMI..  I would have thought the monitor would have been the obvious suspect, but I think one of Chrissies earlier tests ruled this out.   From what's been said so far it could be clutching at straws..   But it may just show something up.
Well, FWIW, I think that's not a bad idea at all.  I think we somehow need to find out whether it is EMI or something else.  Anything that helps us 'decide' that, helps us half the size of the problem investigation space at the very least, and so fix it for Chrissie asap.  :)
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 10:27:19 AM by ColinS »
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chrissie

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #25 on: April 17, 2013, 10:54:14 AM »

Hi guys
Another quick in and out as I have to go out in a moment  :(  All going way above my head now so not sure how to deal with but...am on lappy with Ethernet cable plugged in but the laptop still on wireless connection so don't have a clue how to stop that and just use cable  ???  router still has all lights on so that is still working but is that relevant if it's not being used by laptop!  The lights are on when not in use at times anyway.

As for monitor, it's the same one we've had for 9 years nothing has changed there.  I have this sneaking suspicion this is all to do with ruddy Win 8 "doing" something to router box.  It seems it's ok (will check again later) if you switch PC on without router on, then switch router on it goes online eventually BUT as I say I will check that out again just to make sure.  It's happened to be that way the last couple of times I've put PC on with no router then switched router on (the online light goes off and eventually comes on again) and I have internet access on the PC.  Will report back later if you can bear it lol.  Boy are you all doing a sterling job and I don't think I will ever be able to thank you all enough.

Chrissie
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ColinS

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #26 on: April 17, 2013, 11:04:34 AM »

Chrissie,
just quickly:
Quote
All going way above my head now so not sure how to deal with but...am on lappy with Ethernet cable plugged in but the laptop still on wireless connection so don't have a clue how to stop that and just use cable
Not at all you're doing fine, and we need you to be our eyes!  _Sometimes_ there is a little switch somewhere (perhaps around the sides) on the laptop, which you can use to turn the wireless off (and back on again later).  Have a look when you get time, and see if you can see one?  ;D
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kitz

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #27 on: April 17, 2013, 11:20:27 AM »

Quite a lot of laptops these days use one on the function keys for the wireless on off.   They are usually in blue so you may have to get your glasses out and peer closely.    :(
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chrissie

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #28 on: April 17, 2013, 11:15:58 PM »

Quite a lot of laptops these days use one on the function keys for the wireless on off.   They are usually in blue so you may have to get your glasses out and peer closely.    :(

Hi Kitz,

Yes now you've said it, it must be the F12 key on here as it has a tiny blue light on it with like the wireless thingy (technical term there lol) on it.  Too late tonight but will try again tomorrow now I know I have to switch that off....told ya I was a computer dummy lol.

Okay, what happened after my last post today is as follows (and again thanks everyone for your help).

Router on - all lights on -   I then switched PC and monitor on - all items on screen as they should be and came up straight away.
Tried to open HOME PAGE in IE in desktop - wouldn't connect and came up with "This page can't be displayed"   I clicked FIX CONNECTION PROBLEMS the diagnostic box came up with "the DNS server isn't responding" the online light on router box then went off.
REPORT said - DNS server isn't responding - your computer is trying to use a DNS server that is incorrect or doesn't exist.
ONLINE LIGHT STAYED OFF.  I shut the PC down.

With the router OFF I switched the PC on - metro screen came up straight away.  Switched router ON
all lights came on and stayed on (it's always taken a couple of minutes for the box to be active with the lights coming on ever since we have had it) and I could then access the internet.

It seems that the way it's happening (or most times) that if the router is on and then I put the PC on, the internet can't be accessed but if I don't switch the router on until the PC is on and running I can get on the internet.

I will again try the laptop and Ethernet cable tomorrow - sorry for delays but life gets in the way lol.

Chrissie   
« Last Edit: April 17, 2013, 11:19:44 PM by chrissie »
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sheddyian

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #29 on: April 17, 2013, 11:34:07 PM »

Reading your last reply in isolation, that really sounds like either interference from the PC causing the router to reset/lose synch, or a dodgy router PSU causing the same when an additional (very small) load is introduced (the LAN cable activity).

So trying the laptop on the LAN cable could reveal something useful, so please let us know what happens.

I'm going to predict it causes the router to reset/lose synch (ie the lights go out).  But I'm not that confident in my prediction!

If it does, I reckon it indicates the PSU is failing, or the router itself is on it's last gasp.

But lets see what happens first :)

Ian
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