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Author Topic: Trouble with router I think...  (Read 26387 times)

chrissie

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Trouble with router I think...
« on: April 14, 2013, 02:53:42 PM »


I apologise for having to ask for further help/comments and the fact that I'm a computer "dummy" but was wondering if someone could explain something to me please (trusting I've put this in the correct section)?  I hope I've given enough information.

Since the old desktop died I had one built and the guy put Windows 8 on it <scream>.  Anyway, it looks as though it is doing something to the router box or there's something going wrong when I switch the PC on because the internet goes down and then comes on for a minute or two then down again.  My lappy has Win 7 with wireless connection but not used at the same time as the PC.

Details:  Win 8 OS  IE10 and the router box is Siemens Gigaset SE 572 WLAN dsl connected by brand new ethernet cable (2nd one) - ISP - EE (Orange).  Router is 6 years old and has behaved impeccably until Windows 8 came into the house a couple of weeks ago. 

When I switch the PC on it's ok to start with then the online light on the router goes off, then the LAN light goes off and PC tells me there are connection problems (obviously!).  The other day I lost wireless connection on the lappy an hour or so after having tried to use the PC but connection came back and it was on ok this morning for the lappy then off with the PC.

Does anyone know why this is happening please and if me being terrified of "sorting" things on a computer can sort it OR will I have to pay a techy geek to sort it for me please?  Thank you in advance for your helpful advice.

Chrissie
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roseway

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #1 on: April 14, 2013, 03:32:57 PM »

No need to apologise Chrissie. :)

I think this must be an issue with the new PC. I can't for the moment think what could be happening, but my inclination would be to get the chap who built the machine to fix it because it seems to be faulty.

But others more knowledgeable about Windows than I am may have other ideas.
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chrissie

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #2 on: April 14, 2013, 04:37:04 PM »


Thanks for your reply Eric.  I have been googling the problem but can find nothing definitive (or answers to) but there are others mentioning their routers and things not right with them using Windows 8....so maybe it might be the router box but will bear in mind the new PC too of course.  How I came to choose Win 8 gawd knows  :-X wish I'd stuck to Win 7 which is what I'm used to having the lappy  ???  :)
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ColinS

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #3 on: April 14, 2013, 06:29:36 PM »

Hi Chrissie,

As much as I'd like to blame it on Win8, I'd tend to agree with Roseway that, from what you describe, it sounds more like as if when you switch it on it is causing some sort of electrical surge or other interference that is upsetting your router.  Are they on the same (dual) socket, or extension lead, perhaps?  Could there possibly be a loose wire in the plug?

Your description of what is happening on the router lights is (or at least seems to me to be) consistent with the router rebooting itself.  If this happens _at the same time_ as you switch it on, and every time you switch it on, I would suspect some sort of electrical interference.

Before getting your cheque  book out, and while you're waiting for other helpful suggestions, it may be worth checking the plug, and if possible plugging it in elsewhere, if only to eliminate some of the more obvious possible causes.

Good luck, and let us know how you're getting on ....
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chrissie

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #4 on: April 14, 2013, 11:48:41 PM »

Hi Chrissie,

As much as I'd like to blame it on Win8, I'd tend to agree with Roseway that, from what you describe, it sounds more like as if when you switch it on it is causing some sort of electrical surge or other interference that is upsetting your router.  Are they on the same (dual) socket, or extension lead, perhaps?  Could there possibly be a loose wire in the plug?

Your description of what is happening on the router lights is (or at least seems to me to be) consistent with the router rebooting itself.  If this happens _at the same time_ as you switch it on, and every time you switch it on, I would suspect some sort of electrical interference.

Before getting your cheque  book out, and while you're waiting for other helpful suggestions, it may be worth checking the plug, and if possible plugging it in elsewhere, if only to eliminate some of the more obvious possible causes.

Good luck, and let us know how you're getting on ....

Hi Colin,

Thanks for your input, never thought along those lines I must admit.  However the plug is moulded one so can't get into wiring afaik.  I have a 6 gang surge protected extension lead that all the things are plugged in to and this has never happened before I must say.  Just wondering why the LAN light doesn't come on again after PC is switched off and unplugged and I've "rested" the router box by switching off for a couple of hours?  Yesterday after the router box not connecting the PC and my switching everything off, several hours later I switched just the router on to use the laptop wirelessly but it wouldn't connect to the internet for a little while (on connection box it said Connected but at the top it said no internet access).....so not entirely sure it's electrical (but what do I know lol) more inclined to think tower and/or Win8 not suitable for the box   :o 

Hindsight is brill isn't it.....just wish I'd got Win7 and not Win8 as I really don't like the latter but now I'm stuck with it...sigh. :(

Chrissie
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ColinS

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #5 on: April 15, 2013, 12:34:05 AM »

Hi Colin,

Thanks for your input, never thought along those lines I must admit.  However the plug is moulded one so can't get into wiring afaik.  I have a 6 gang surge protected extension lead that all the things are plugged in to and this has never happened before I must say. 
OK, well you've probably just eliminated those possibilities then.  :)

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Just wondering why the LAN light doesn't come on again after PC is switched off and unplugged and I've "rested" the router box by switching off for a couple of hours?
If whatever the router LAN port is connected to is switched off, then I would expect the LAN light to be off too?  What do you normally see in such circumstances?

Quote
Yesterday after the router box not connecting the PC and my switching everything off, several hours later I switched just the router on to use the laptop wirelessly but it wouldn't connect to the internet for a little while (on connection box it said Connected but at the top it said no internet access).....so not entirely sure it's electrical (but what do I know lol)
Well, with all the additional info you are providing I agree that you have eliminated that possibility! 
I assume you are refering to what you are seeing in Network Connections on W7?  If so, 'connected' means via the wlan to the router, but the 'no internet access' suggests windows thinks that the router is not connected via the ADSL(?) link, or if you can confirm that it is (both DSL and Internet in the router, rather than Windows), then it might be that you have some sort of DNS or other external network problem.  I believe that W7 and later send HTTP-type messages (outside of a browser) to some MS site, in order to tell you whether you're 'connected to the Internet' or not.  If these fail for whatever reason (e.g. network down, can't find the site in a DNS host-to-ip-address lookup,or are delayed because of network congestion somewhere) then you would see 'not connected to the internet' in Windows - at least until the external problem resolved itself! (It's not smart enough to know why!)

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more inclined to think tower and/or Win8 not suitable for the box   :o
Don't give up yet, I would say.  Go a step at a time.  We now know it's not electrical.  If we can find out whether the router thinks the network is available, while windows thinks it's not, then that would give us another clue.  ;)  At what point of the W8 load from PC power-on would you say that the Router falls over?  That might give us another clue.

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Hindsight is brill isn't it.....just wish I'd got Win7 and not Win8 as I really don't like the latter but now I'm stuck with it...sigh. :(
I can't swear to this, but some Win8 licences (I believe) come with a 'downgrade' right.  i.e. if yours happens to have this right (and I suppose you'd have to ask the guy who got it for you), then (as I understand it) you could put Windows 7 on your new machine and use the W8 licence you've already paid for to activate it.  Might be some consolation prize if you can, and you really can't stand W8 (and many people, me included, can't). Worth enquiring/googling about anyway ... ;D

Chrissie
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chrissie

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #6 on: April 15, 2013, 09:10:57 AM »


Hi Colin, thanks for persevering with me.  I will try and answer what you've asked to the best I can..bear with me <smile>.

"If whatever the router LAN port is connected to is switched off, then I would expect the LAN light to be off too? What do you normally see in such circumstances?"

Yes light is off.  There's 5 lights on the top of the router box, from left to right it's power - dsl - online - wlan (all grouped together) and LAN a little way away from those 4.  This is the box http://tinyurl.com/catso7y

When the PC disses the box the offline light goes off and then the LAN light goes off.  Sometimes the online light comes on but the LAN button doesn't.  In fact after the PC disses the box and is switched off...the LAN light doesn't come on again when I'm using the laptop wirelessly on the internet yet I'm sure it was always on before this all happened.

"I assume you are referring to what you are seeing in Network Connections on W7?"

Yes the wireless connection box on the task bar on the laptop.  I do wonder if the box is any good for Win 8 or if there is some issue because it's a new system - is it "overloading" the box or summat like that?

"At what point of the W8 load from PC power-on would you say that the Router falls over?"

Can't say precisely but think it's a few minutes and this has happened since we got the PC first time.  Phoned the shop/guy where we got it from and was told switch box off for 5 mins then on again - we did and it worked for the internet connection then though cannot remember if it dissed the box again at that time as we didn't stay on PC long. 

Thanks again for the help, all greatly appreciated though I just hope it's not going to end up too technical for me to understand/sort <the mind boggles lol>.

Chrissie
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ColinS

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #7 on: April 15, 2013, 10:20:03 AM »

Quote
Hi Colin, thanks for persevering with me. 
No problem at all, we shall both need some perseverence as we try to diagnose (as best we can) what's going on here, but otherwise I'm glad to try to help you if I can. Just tell me if I don't explain something well enough for you to follow me.   I will then be happy to try again & won't be put off in any way at all.  :)

Quote
When the PC disses the box the online light goes off and then the LAN light goes off.  Sometimes the online light comes on but the LAN button doesn't.  In fact after the PC disses the box and is switched off...the LAN light doesn't come on again when I'm using the laptop wirelessly on the internet yet I'm sure it was always on before this all happened.
Obviously I could be wrong, but that sequence suggests to me that whatever is happening, it is causing the router to fall-over & reboot.  When this happens the sequence on the lights would be similiar (or normally would be) to what they display when it's initially powered on.  In my experience, they tend to try and bring the various interfaces (LAN, DSL, Online) up first before starting the WLAN (which is really just an extension of the Wired LAN ports).  So, I could potentially understand if something exchanged between the W8 PC and the router caused your PC's LAN connection to 'hang-up' and the router to reboot.  In that scenario, the router might reboot and re-establish the DSL, Online and LAN (and those lights would normally all come on).  However if the PC's LAN connection was left in a 'funny' state by this, it might not connect properly, and so the LAN light might not come on until you try to access it wirelessly from your lappy.  Does that make sense?  ATM it's only a theory, but we could try to see if that 'fits' what you can see when this happens?
Seimens - nice!; presumably this is the Orange Live Box?  I have a friend who may have/or know about these.  I will try to ask him if he knows how we might be able to connect (say from your lappy) to the router to see a little more about what it thinks it knows about what's going on.  If you already know how to do this, let me know, and then perhaps we can work out together what it can tell us, if anything!  :)

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is it "overloading" the box or summat like that?
Possibly 'summat like that'!  ATM I doubt that it would be 'overloading' it, but it _may_ be sending something that your router doesn't like and/or can't cope with.  That is a possibility.  It's been known in the past that e.g. there have been problems with routers & newer versions of Windows over things like passwords or how well they display their screens to you in a browser.  These are generally as much to do with the fact that a new version of windows generally comes with a new version of IE, and it's that that causes some of the issues that have been seen in the past.  Haven't (till now) heard of it pushing a router over, but it's not beyond belief.  :(
W8 is certainly different. Not just the way it looks, or how you're supposed to interact with it, which may be fine for all the tablet surfers, but it is really abysmal for those of us who still wish to use the familiar desktop.  But it has some technical differences too: for example, the previous windows we know load everything from scratch every time you restart the machine unless you had previously hibernated it.  W8 doesn't do quite that.  When you close it down, it sort of hibernates instead (writing a copy of the PC's memory at the time to disc).  When you restart it, instead of reloading everything from scratch, it restores the hibernated copy of your PC's memory and 'reinitialises' the drivers again instead.  This makes it load faster.  However, there is a chance that this might not quite work as intended with some devices.  I can't say if this is happening here, but it is one significant difference with W8, and so it must at least be a _possible_ explanation that this appears to you to be W8-specific.  You may well be right!  ;D

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Can't say precisely but think it's a few minutes and this has happened since we got the PC first time.  Phoned the shop/guy where we got it from and was told switch box off for 5 mins then on again - we did and it worked for the internet connection then though cannot remember if it dissed the box again at that time as we didn't stay on PC long. 
That's helpful.  The 'few minutes' (accurate enough for me!) suggests that W8 will have finished it's 'fast (re)load' as described above.  Was the LAN light on at that point?  What the guy told you to do, might suggest simply that he thinks that your router box had not properly connected to the internet.  But as he wasn't there to see your lights, it could be that or it could be that the LAN hadn't connected.  The fact that it then falls over again after a) the internet connection is available, and b) presumably you try to use the browser, suggests - as you have said from the start - that 'summat' that your new PC is sending over to the internet via your router is upsetting the router.
At this point I can't yet imagine what that might be.  However, can you tell me what typically you are doing with your PC when it happens?  e.g. simply using the browser (any particular site, or not?), or possibly using some 'app'.  Even if you are not yourself doing anything other than browsing, that doesn't mean that W8 isn't doing something in the background that you don't realise e.g. downloading new patches, or new anti-virus files, or whatever.

It is hard, but not impossible, to try to diagnose these things in this way.  It is always better if someone is actually there on site with you, because they can literally 'see' things happening that will take us some time in this thread to do this way.  So, if you can persuade/cajole/threaten the guy to come over to your place and take a look for himself at it, that _may_ get you a quicker result.

In the meantime I will try to find out more about the Orange Live Box.

Good luck, and hang in there. 
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 10:36:22 AM by ColinS »
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chrissie

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #8 on: April 15, 2013, 10:48:20 AM »

Aw Colin I really appreciate your time and effort.  I have an update though  :o

After being on lappy I've just been and switch PC on....ALL the lights stayed on and the LAN light came on too  ???  I clicked on IE icon but although trying, it didn't connect, said this page can't be displayed.  Clicked on one of my favorites to try to connect but blank screen...nowt.  Yes it is the Orange live box btw.

However, the lights stayed on the router AND on the PC it said connected there was no indication that the ruddy thing was off line and the box obviously indicated that too <can I scream!>.   I don't know if this is anything to do with it but the page that IE starts at is something like http://t.uk.msn.com or similar to that, do you know what that is?  That's when it tries to show something and comes up page can't be displayed.  When I use the favs sign into Yahoo mail it just goes on and on trying and ends up just the white page  :'(

Now I know very little about the router box gubbings but SS44 helped me sort that a few years ago to secure it (thank the lord) so I haven't touched it since.  Up on the PC I got the page up and got into the box but that's it.....it's like giving a baby a set of maths questions  :D wouldn't know where to look and I admit to being a coward in that I don't want to start messing in there as at least I can get on tinternet with my laptop...erm.... atm.

There might be something in what you said about newer version of IE not doing things properly or whatever...but I have version 10 on this laptop so not sure now...is it Win 8 - IE10 - router box - Orange messing up....perm anyone from... :D

Don't know if any of the above helps but thought I'd better get on to let you know and when I shut the PC down, the lights were still on except the LAN one then went off.

Jeez, what an epic this is turning in to!  :(  Apologies for this in advance.

x

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ColinS

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #9 on: April 15, 2013, 12:26:01 PM »

Hi Chrissie,

Well that's definate progress in our search to understand what's going on.  :thumbs:

First things first:
Quote
at least I can get on tinternet with my laptop...erm.... atm.
that, at least, shows that the router is correctly configured, and we don't need to start messing about in there.  :)
It also points the finger more surely back to the W8 PC, which is good, because it is becoming the builder's issue then to find out why it is not working, and fix it.  What steps, if any, were taken to configure it to work with your router?  Possibly none, if he set W8 to get it's LAN connection info from the router box using DHCP?  Is this how your lappy does it?  I think you can right-click the connection in the task bar (of both the lappy and the PC) and select Status.  From what it then presents to you, you can select the Support tab, and click the Details button.  (I'm currently using XP as I write this so what you can see on W7/W8 may be slightly different, I can't remember, but it will be similar). If you can make a note of both and let me know any differences that might give me a clue :-\ (no rush for any of this ... well as far as I'm concerned anyway). 

Quote
  I don't know if this is anything to do with it but the page that IE starts at is something like http://t.uk.msn.com or similar to that, do you know what that is?  That's when it tries to show something and comes up page can't be displayed.  When I use the favs sign into Yahoo mail it just goes on and on trying and ends up just the white page
http://t.uk.msn.com is just the default (landing) page that MS has set up in IE10.  But the fact that you can't access either this or Yahoo, suggests it might be having a problem with DNS (i.e. it can't 'translate' the URL address you type in the browser to a network (IP) address that it can connect to).  That's assuming that at the time the PC can't get to those sites, you can happily do so from your lappy.  Again, this points strongly to the W8 PC!!  The fact that you use IE10 on W7, means that it isn't a browser issue either!  :)
So, we still might not know yet what it is, but we now know quite a few things that it isn't.  I bet that doesn't make you feel any better about it though!  :(

One thing you might try for me, if you are happy to give it a go: can you 'run' a command window on the Windows 8 PC (you may have to 'search' for it on W8), and try this: ping www.bbc.co.uk and post here what you get.  This might show us whether or not it can translate 'www.bbc.co.uk', or if there is some other network issue.  Unlikely to be the latter when your lappy is using the same router box.

Keep up the good work.  If you watch any of these detective things on TV - Poirot, Sherlock Holmes, Morse, whoever - it is always by careful observation of everything that's going on that they get the clues they need to solve the mystery!  So, you need to continue to be our 'eyes' on this.  ;)
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chrissie

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #10 on: April 15, 2013, 01:11:00 PM »

Colin just posting before I go for docs apt  :( but I've been googling around (hehe) for days over this but COULD this be relevant?  The guy who did the PC put on the bought version of AVG 2013 as that's what he sells mainly (could be an agent...not a secret one tho...ahem).

https://getsatisfaction.com/avg/topics/avg_blocking_internet_connection       scroll down as someone has posted about Win8 and same problem.....

Only just found this, didn't even consider ruddy AV...and I haven't updated that because of connection probs.  I WILL get back later and answer your questions above but thought I'd put this on before I go out.

You deserve a medal for all your help I must say.  :thumbs:
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sheddyian

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #11 on: April 15, 2013, 01:23:08 PM »

Just skimming through this thread, but I wonder if it's interference from the Windows 8 PC, or possibly even some kind of fault on the Ethernet side of things inside the PC.

As I understand it, the router is happy until the PC is switched on, then it loses synch (or reboots - I'm wondering which is actually happening here).

What I'd try next in this situation is this :

With the router lights showing normally, switch the PC on BUT NOT THE MONITOR.  Does the router still reset?

If the router is fine after that test, it's the monitor interfering.  There's your problem!

If it still resets, shut down the PC again, get the router working once more, then disconnect the ethernet cable between the PC and the router.

Start the PC up once more.  What happens now?  Does the router reset again?  Or do the lights stay on (except the LAN light as you've got that cable unplugged.  Obviously Windows is going to complain there's no internet connection, but it's the behaviour of the router and it's lights we're interested in at this point). 

If it still resets, it's not something odd happening on the ethernet cable.

Finally then, get a medium wave (AM) radio, tuned to 612Khz whilst everything is switched off, and stand it a metre or two away from everything.  Ideally all you should hear on the radio is a faint crackle or hiss, maybe a distant foreign station.  Now switch the router on and let it settle.  Then switch the PC on.  Do you hear lots of noise on the radio?  If so, how far away do you have to move the radio for the noise to stop?

You would expect to hear some noise with the radio very close to the equipment, but I'd have thought no more than a metre or two.  If you can hear noise from a good distance, there's a fault in the PC or the monitor!  (I had this a while back, turned out to be the power supply in a Dell PC)

That's what I'd be trying, anyway :)

Ian


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ColinS

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #12 on: April 15, 2013, 03:47:42 PM »


Good suggestions Ian. and a set of simple steps for Chrissie to try.  Excellent.  ;D

Quote
it loses synch (or reboots - I'm wondering which is actually happening here)
Hard to tell really (blind).  There could quite easily be something in the Live Box logs, if they're switched on, and we could get at them.  In practise I don't think it would make much difference, except that losing synch might be stronger evidence of interference of one kind, which your process will help to highlight anyway.  :)
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ColinS

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #13 on: April 15, 2013, 04:00:13 PM »

Chrissie,

Quote
but COULD this be relevant?
Yes, it could ... and it could indeed prevent you from accessing the outside world if it had been incorrectly configured by your 'secret' agent.   :lol:

but that wouldn't explain why the router keeps resyncing itself (or rebooting, whichever).  :-\  :no:  ???

I think it is well worth following Ian's very helpful steps above before we all go any further.  That way we can at least try to confirm or disprove the presence of interference from your PC.  :(
« Last Edit: April 15, 2013, 08:41:36 PM by ColinS »
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sheddyian

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Re: Trouble with router I think...
« Reply #14 on: April 15, 2013, 04:22:31 PM »

One other thought...

Leaving the new PC switched off, if you plug the laptop into the router via the LAN cable, and start it up, what does the router do?  Does it work ok (and the appropriate LAN light come on) or does it still reset itself?

If so, I'm thinking failing router or (more likely) failing router PSU...

Ian
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