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Author Topic: ADSL2+ Up and down like a Yoyo! Any advice appreciated....  (Read 3913 times)

AJK

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ADSL2+ Up and down like a Yoyo! Any advice appreciated....
« on: March 19, 2013, 11:15:51 AM »

Here's the setup. ADSL2+ on a reasonably long line length. ISP is TalkTalk Business (this is at my work).

Over the last few months, the internet connection has been dropping periodically. It usually re-syncs straight away, although sometimes it seems to take a few minutes. The problem appears to be getting worse.

On looking at the stats, it appears we are getting a shed load of errors on the local side (see attached).

So in less than 2 minutes of uptime, it has :

Loss of Framing (Local) : 157
Loss of Signal (Local) : 4,746
Error Seconds (Local) : 8,568
FEC Errors (Down) : 2,026
CRC Errors (Down) : 424
HEC Errors (Up/Down) : 620 / 1,318

I assume this is indicating a problem? REIN? Or something else?

It is a peculiar setup, in that the actual phone line(s) come into the building via the Electrical cupboard to a junction box. Then the ADSL line routes around the Warehouse somewhere and ends up the other side of the building, where it drops down into a dedicated Server Room. It is in here that there is a NTE5 box (replaced by Openreach less than a year ago, when we were having other issues!). Could this convoluted routing be picking up electrical interference?

If we involve TalkTalk (who I assume would involve Openreach), since the NTE5 is in the Server Room, does that mean that the cabling before this box (i.e. going around the Warehouse) is BT's responsibility, and they would be require to sort out any REIN issue? Or is it our responsibility as it still is in our premises?

Of course, if anyone thinks its not REIN and is instead something else, then please let me know  ;D

I have a bog standard phone plugged into the ADSL Line (via a filtered faceplate) and I cannot hear any crackling (although it is hard to tell in a noisy Server Room!)  :D

Any advice or opinions would be most appreciated.

Cheers.
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AJK

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Re: ADSL2+ Up and down like a Yoyo! Any advice appreciated....
« Reply #1 on: March 19, 2013, 12:22:13 PM »

It just dropped out, and attached are the stats for just 17 seconds of uptime when it came back up.

In a nutshell:

Loss of Framing (Local) : 165
Loss of Signal (Local) : 5,040
Error Seconds (Local/Remote) : 8,993 / 37
FEC Errors (Down) : 21

Any ideas as to what is going on?  :(
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asbokid

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Re: ADSL2+ Up and down like a Yoyo! Any advice appreciated....
« Reply #2 on: March 19, 2013, 12:44:02 PM »

Is there audible noise on the voiceband side?
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Toblerone

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Re: ADSL2+ Up and down like a Yoyo! Any advice appreciated....
« Reply #3 on: March 19, 2013, 05:43:20 PM »

Check for REIN with an AM radio set to 612KHz.

This is one I've been dealing with today, you can see the speed literally double as soon as we found the source of REIN:



Easiest check is to turn the radio on at 612KHz, listen to the signal you get, and then knock your mains electric off. If you still hear electrical interference (pulsating/buzzing noises) it could be your neighbours - if you're friendly with them ask if you can test their property too. :)
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Black Sheep

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Re: ADSL2+ Up and down like a Yoyo! Any advice appreciated....
« Reply #4 on: March 19, 2013, 08:26:21 PM »

REIN can be tricky to be find, and determine. There are all sorts of 'Interference' noises that can be heard on a radio/official 444B tester, but to be absolutely 100% certain, a spectrum analyser should be connected to the circuit at the far end (i.e: the actual premises) to see if the 'noise' is actually drowning out the signal ??

We get instances whereby there is extremely low-level 'noise', not just REIN but also crosstalk, that affects the circuit because the MPF's integrity ( the pair of wires from the Exchange to the premises) isn't as it should be.
Before a REIN case can be raised by a bog-standard engineer, the circuit must pass a PQT (Pair Quality Test) to a certain standard. As well as being free of any kind of 'Contact fault' (i.e.: low resistance between other working circuits, or actual earth), the individual leg-balance of each wire should be within 2-3 ohms of one another, and an AC Balance of -50dB or less should be obtained. Bear in mind the reading is in the 'negative', so ideally -60dB is better than -50dB, and -70dB is better than -60dB ..... etc etc.

As well as ensuring a good MPF, engineers have to install an RF3 Filter and an integrated filter also, to 'soak up' any minimal 'Noise' affecting issues.

The above is our (Openreach's) mandate, as once we have proven our MPF to be fault-free and that it meets SIN349 standards, then our remit is covered. However, being the caring company that we are, we do acknowledge that REIN is a problem and when workstacks are at a manageable level, we will generally assist the EU/ISP in locating the issue. Some are awful to locate, some are dead easy. Turning the electric off at the mains is acceptable if A) You feel competent, and B) It's non-problematic. By that, I mean that A) There are still some uninsulated live-busbar consumer units out there that could be lethal to the unassuming, and B) Turning consumer units off willy-nilly in a industrial environment can cause havoc.

Asbo has commented as to whether you can hear audible noise on the telephony side of the broadband circuit ?? (Assuming it's not a data-only circuit ??). This is a very simple step to take and if audible noise can be heard (crackling, hissing, humming) then I would suggest the MPF's integrity has collapsed in some way. Testing for that would be the best and easiest option in the first instance.

Regarding your query about the cable run around the warehouse ?? Yes, we are responsible for it with regard to 'Fair wear and tear' up to and including the NTE5 (socket). Again, by that I mean if you have decided to install an electric heater under the wire, or the company cat like to lag on the socket, then obviously charges (TRC) will apply. But, as I've said, we are not responsible for REIN faulting along any of the actual MPF. We do it as a gratis service.

I believe moves are afoot (and have been for a little while) for some kind of input financially from the ISP's when this kind of fault (REIN) arises. As the larger bandwiths are pushed down our cables, the more susceptible they become to REIN.

I'm not saying in any way, shape or form that your problem isn't REIN related, I just wanted to give a slight bit of guidance as to OR's responsibilities in regard to it, and that something like a very simple 'split-pair' on the MPF will give similar WHOOSH (DLM) readings, as REIN would (see DLM graph above posted up by Toblerone).

WHOOSH (Testing tool for DSL and other broad/wideband circuits) is a great tool for us when locating timings of REIN, especially the 'colour chart' in RRT (Retrospective Repair Tool). On Industrial Estates, on WHOOSH we can generally see a pattern with REIN from Mon-Fri (everything coloured in red), then weekends will see everything coloured in green. This is a massive indicator of REIN, coupled with good old knocking on other premises doors to ask if they are being affected, and driving around in the van with the radio set at 612Khz.

Sorry for prattling on, but that's my take on it.  ;D



 

   
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burakkucat

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Re: ADSL2+ Up and down like a Yoyo! Any advice appreciated....
« Reply #5 on: March 19, 2013, 08:51:26 PM »

Sorry for prattling on, but that's my take on it.  ;D

That is all good advice (direct from the Sheep's mouth) and well worth stating.  :)

As to a telephony QLT, AJK stated --

Quote
I have a bog standard phone plugged into the ADSL Line (via a filtered faceplate) and I cannot hear any crackling (although it is hard to tell in a noisy Server Room!)  :D

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Black Sheep

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Re: ADSL2+ Up and down like a Yoyo! Any advice appreciated....
« Reply #6 on: March 19, 2013, 09:00:50 PM »

Ha ha ............ B*Cat comes up trumps again.

I am sooooooo guilty of not reading the whole of thread's, and kinda speed-read.  ;) :)
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