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[Clenched Buttocks]

Hi there

I first posted some four years ago on Kitz re the problems concerning my folk’s broadband connection and received some very informative replies. Once again we have few questions re our current setup and would appreciate some informed comment regarding the implications of a fibre connection.

Just to bring you up-to-date. The folks finally dustbinned the Tiscali/Talk Talk abomination a couple of years ago and replaced them with Plusnet for both broadband and telephone. The contrast in services could not be more stark. The broadband line, which had regularly dropped with the frequency of a tart’s tights, has been transformed into a rock-solid connection which seems not to have missed a beat in 25 months – some achievement. On the two or three occasions that contact with customer services has been required we have always found Plusnet to be polite, knowledgeable and courteous.

What still continues to be a bugbear, though, is the unacceptably feeble connection speed of 750kbps, which has prevailed ever since being originally connected in 2007. Clearly this is not a problem of Plusnet (is the ISP), but certainly is of BT (responsible for the line). But this weedy speed only seems to affect the street in which my folks live. The SamKnows tool shows our distance from the exchange as 2,600 (1.6miles) which clearly is considerable. That accepted, most other streets around here have higher speeds: 2meg round the corner, 3-4meg a few streets away and the main A road seems to reach 5meg +, yet we all are connected via the same cabinet which is around 500m from our house. Despite our dissatisfaction being conveyed to BT, both in letter and by email, no response has ever been received.

Discussions locally seem to agree that our particular street is hamstrung by some particularly low-grade copper wiring which degrades the broadband performance. BT seem unable to comment on whether this is the case or not but it certainly seems plausible.

Now this problem, potentially, could be resolved with the recent advent of fibre cable, which became available around these parts a month or so ago. 


And it is in relation to this that I have some queries. 

1)  Assuming that the inferior quality of cable is a reality, would this not still pose a problem in terms of a deteriorated connection from the cabinet to the property? Or is the strength of signal from exchange so much stronger from exchange to cab that any loss due to tardy cable twixt cab & property will be insignificant?
 
2)   My folks broadband use is pretty minimal – usually a bit of web browsing and a few emails – but should they ever wish to watch a BBC prog on iPlayer then the eternally spinning buffer wheel proves discouraging enough. Given that 2mbps might be deemed  the 'basic minimum acceptable' speed and that this is available for most of the locality should my folks not be entitled to some sort of upgrade on a quid pro quo basis? Not from the ISP but from BT. It seems profoundly unfair that they have to pay for a premium service because the standard (broadband) service is so abysmal.

Thank very much for any advice.   

[kitz]

>> The SamKnows tool shows our distance from the exchange as 2,600 (1.6miles)

1) What happens if you use this sites broadband checker and what distance does it return for road.  This is usually a much better indication that straight-line distance.

2) Then could you please let us have the line stats..  from the attenuation we should also be able to get a rough idea of the distance & line quality.

>> cable, which became available around these parts a month or so ago.

3) What does the BT checker say?


------------

>> Or is the strength of signal from exchange so much stronger from exchange to cab that any loss due to tardy cable.

FTTC works differently.  The copper between the exchange and cab is replaced with fibre optic cabling which doesnt have the same problems with loss of signal as does copper.  You will be cutting out a huge chunk of copper and therefore any signal deterioration will only be between the cab and home.  Just taking the info youve supplied so far you are going to be loosing at least a mile of copper, therefore speed should be considerably higher.

>> should my folks not be entitled to some sort of upgrade on a quid pro quo basis?

Unfortunately not:/  The service is provided as is and will go as fast as the line can handle.  The technology to implement rADSL is exactly the same regardless if your speed is 0.5 Mbps or 24Mbps. 
In reality its more expensive to provide adsl to the home that is further away than to the house that is near the exchange and able to get full speed. The longer lines are also less profitable for the ISPs because these lines are the ones that frequently need more support.. and cost BT more to maintain because of the length of copper.
As an example, I've never had to contact any of my ISPs over the past 9 yrs in regards to a line fault or problems syncing etc. and Ive contacted my current ISP once in about the past 5 yrs and that was only to get a new router - which they are now dishing out FoC to anyone who had one of their old ones.
Unfortunately its the ones with longer lines that need more support & man-hours from both BT and the ISP

[waltergmw]

Hi CB,

Just to clarify Kitz's suggestion if you use the BT Wholesale checker as retail checkers won't give estimates outside their acceptable speed ranges.

http://www.dslchecker.bt.com/adsl/adslchecker.welcome

you will see what BT expect your line is capable of, right down to 100 KILO bits per second up and down for those that are seemingly condemned by BT.
If you know the numbers of some of your friends you can enter theirs as well for comparison purposes.
Failing that, use the Wholesale address checker which often seems to provide identical figures even though there are caveats.
(I suspect, but can't prove, that the caveats could be mainly due to the possibility of postcodes shared by two PCPs.)

Kind regards,
Walter

[Clenched Buttocks]

Kitz:

1) What happens if you use this sites broadband checker and what distance does it return for road.  This is usually a much better indication that straight-line distance.

Distance:-   Direct:        2.76 km
    (appx)*
By Road:   3.6 km
    Status   
 
ADSL enabled:   June 29, 2001
 
DSL Max enabled:    March 30, 2006
 
21CN WBC (Broadband)   Enabled
 
21CN due : (PSTN)   info N/A
 
FTTC   Available in some areas
 
SDSL enabled :   Enabled
 
Broadband Access†
Market 3
 
BTw Pricing Band    Band A

BT Line Speed Estimation

 
Fixed ADSL:    512 kbps   (0.5 Mb)
 
DSL Max:     500 kbps   (0.5 Mb)
 
21CN WBC :   1000 kbps    (1 Mb)


RAG Test Results

 
Fixed:    1Mbps and 2Mbps not possible
 
radsl:    512Kbps and 256Kbps available
 
MAX:    ADSL Max is available
 
TPON:    No info in database
 
Check:    The check identified another service on your line which may prevent you from ordering a new ADSL connection. Examples are : Existing adsl connection, DACs, LLU, TPON etc
    
2) Then could you please let us have the line stats..  from the attenuation we should also be able to get a rough idea of the distance & line quality.

DSL Connection   
Link Information
Uptime:   14 days, 7:50:52
DSL Type:   G.992.1 annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]:   448 / 960
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]:   0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]:   12.5 / 15.0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]:   31.5 / 63.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]:   11.0 / 6.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote):   TMMB / IFTN
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote):   11 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote):   5 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote):   0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote):   0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote):   26 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down):   546 / 2,376,484
CRC Errors (Up/Down):   546 / 14,618
HEC Errors (Up/Down):   365 / 8,583

BT Checker:
Broadband option   Broadband speed range   Earliest you could get it   Action
BT Infinity  Superfast fibre optic broadbandGreat news! You are eligible for superfast BT Infinity.    31.3Mb download
5.8Mb upload   Now   Learn more Learn more

BT Total Broadband  BT Total BroadbandThe speed prediction we have provided is an estimate, however download speeds can vary and the actual download speed will fall between a range. This is generally within 1-2 Mb higher or lower than your estimated speed quoted.    Between 1.0Mb and 3.5Mb
(Estimated speed: 1.0Mb)   Now   

Understand the comment re fibre replacing copper from the exchange to the cab. Thanks.

>> should my folks not be entitled to some sort of upgrade on a quid pro quo basis?

Unfortunately not:/  The service is provided as is and will go as fast as the line can handle.  The technology to implement rADSL is exactly the same regardless if your speed is 0.5 Mbps or 24Mbps. In reality its more expensive to provide adsl to the home that is further away than to the house that is near the exchange and able to get full speed. The longer lines are also less profitable for the ISPs because these lines are the ones that frequently need more support.. and cost BT more to maintain because of the length of copper.

I understand that this might be the case in theory but empirical observation would suggest that BT are conspicuous by their absence and precious little attention is given by them to this part of the locality. Thanks very much for the comments, Kitz.

Waltergmw:

Your exchange is ADSL enabled, and our initial test on your line indicates that your line should be able to have an ADSL broadband service that provides a fixed line speed up to 512Kbps. However, due to the length of your line, an engineer visit may be required, who will, where possible, supply the broadband service.
Additionally, your line may be able to support an estimated ADSL speed between 1 to 2 Mbps using Broadband Enabling Technology. A solution created specifically for communities who have very long telephone lines. If you decide to place an order, an appointment might be required where an engineer may need to visit your premises who will, where possible, supply the service.
Our test also indicates that your line currently supports an estimated ADSL Max broadband line speed of 500Kbps; typically the line speed would range between 250Kbps and 1.5Mbps.
Our test also indicates that your line should be able to have an ADSL2+ broadband service that provides a fixed line speed up to 512Kbps. However, due to the length of your line, an engineer visit may be required, who will, where possible, supply the broadband service.
Our test also indicates that your line currently supports an estimated ADSL2+ broadband line speed of 1Mbps; typically the line speed would range between 1Mbps and 3.5Mbps.
Our test also indicates that your line currently supports a fibre technology with an estimated WBC FTTC Broadband where consumers have received downstream line speed of 31.3Mbps and upstream line speed of 5.8Mbps.
The actual stable line speed supportable will be determined during the first 10 days of use. This speed may change over time, to ensure line stability is maintained.
If you decide to place an order, a further test will be performed to confirm if your line is suitable for the service you wish to purchase.
Thank you for your interest.
Please note that postcode and address check results are indicative only. Most accurate results can be obtained from a telephone number check.
Note: If you already have a Broadband service enabled on this line and you want to switch service providers, you will need to contact both your current provider and your new provider to get your service changed over new and existing service provider to have this service transferred.
Also provision of some services may not be allowed due to product withdrawal, please contact your service provider for further details.

I do hope that this is useful, Walter . 

CB

[kitz]

>> Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]:   31.5 / 63.5

63.5dB is the maximum figure the majority of routers will report.  In all likelyhood the true attenuation figure will be higher than this. 

>> By Road:   3.6 km

Looks like the wiring literally goes "round the houses" before reaching your parents home.  Based on the above its more like 4.5 km.*

-----


Considering that line has been up 2weeks, those stats look quite good and relatively stable for such a long line.  Obviously I cant see SNRM variations that would occur, but it seems to be holding the sync quite nicely.  This would seem to indicate that the wiring and local conditions are quite good.

* One thing we cant check or know is, if that line has some aluminium on it.  I only mention that because the attenuation could perhaps seem a bit high, judged on distance, but then again we dont know how much the cable goes round the houses first.  Only BToR engineer visiting your home would be able to tell you that.

>> You are eligible for superfast BT Infinity.    31.3Mb download

That indicates a distance of around 700m from the cab.

I think its becoming a no brainer.  Youre going to be lopping off the best part of about 4 km worth of copper.



*Distance figures are appx

[waltergmw]

@ Kitz & CB,

Out in the sticks we observe that the Wholesale estimator does seem to take into account the quality of the line so there are quite wide variations in the speed estimates which only make sense when you know how bad some of the lines are !

The top entry in the attached PDF is a case in point with horribly unreliable aluminium. It is frequently demonstrated whenever the hapless Openreach staff have to open a joint all hell breaks loose with crackling lines a-plenty !

The distances are the known cable routes as measured on the SCC Interactive map distance measuring facility. Line lengths will be a little longer especially on the overhead sections with the extra 6 m cable drops at every joint.

As Openreach staff seem totally overwhelmed with installation dates now into December, excited readers will have to wait until next year for the actual performance results.

Kind regards,
Walter

[Clenched Buttocks]

Kitz: Given what I was expecting, that seems to be a pretty healthy prognosis of the said line. In the light of which, I think I reckon we'll just upgrade as suggested. Thanks very much for help, Kitz. 

Waltergmw: Thanks too, for the comments. Was a bit befuddled by the reference to the "attached PDF". Perhaps you can redirect me? Thanks, Walter. 

[waltergmw]

Hi CB,

If you click the link with the paperclip on it you should be able to download my PDF file and open it with Adobe Reader or similar.

(I do agree with Kitz that you should go for a VDSL upgrade though.
You have nothing to loose provide it all goes according to plan. )
When you do please post a BT speedtest showing all the figures including the IP profile.

Kind regards,
Walter

[Clenched Buttocks]

Finally got it.    Very intersting. Thanks, Walter.