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Author Topic: Beta Testers Needed  (Read 22275 times)

kitz

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Re: Beta Testers Needed
« Reply #30 on: December 13, 2007, 02:14:18 PM »

Autonomous System (AS)
http://www.ripe.net/ripe/docs/ripe-389.html

But to keep it very simple  - a naming system in which an ISP (or anyone who is assigned a block of IP addresses) is recorded in the RIPE database.
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guest

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Re: Beta Testers Needed
« Reply #31 on: December 13, 2007, 03:20:26 PM »

/ pedant mode on

Its a number, not a name.

Its a routing system (BGP4) primarily and not a database.

/ pedant mode off


PS - kitz BGP4 ought to give you a clue as to why AG used to ask ISPs for address block details back in the early days. I'm pretty certain Mr Lahtinen doesn't need to ask now (nor has he for some years).
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kitz

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Re: Beta Testers Needed
« Reply #32 on: December 13, 2007, 03:43:15 PM »

I thought I saw something pretty recent - well within the past few months on ag about the ip range - unless Ive been in a time warp and times flown quicker than I thought (possible)

I'v just hit a major hurdle anyhow... and surprised you couldnt hear me scream from there :D...
Im pulling back the ASno easy enough - but Im now having a prob identifying some ISPs

From the ASno Im looking up the ASname - hardly any ISPs do an exact match but Ive been getting around this

for eg

479  AS25360  Parbin  84.51.128.0  84.51.191.255  whose description is  Parbin Limited London, UK 

So Im pointing Parbin to "Metronet" in my own records

But theres a whole heap of ASnames identifying themselves as "UNSPECIFIED"  including the likes of supanet and C+W that Ive noticed so far

eg from a supanet

2325  AS9142  UNSPECIFIED  212.111.160.0  212.111.175.255 who when you do another lookup  description is  Netline UK Ltd 

but theres also a lot of C+W "unspecified"

Need a major rethink...  because Ive also now got a lot of blanks for the likes of Bulldog, Nildram, UKO, F2S, TT, Orange etc -  none of whom are identifying atm :(

As it stands the theory of taking the IP > ASNo works fine...
Its getting the ASNo to match the ISP automatically thats giving me the problem. :/
« Last Edit: December 13, 2007, 03:49:53 PM by kitz »
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Floydoid

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Re: Beta Testers Needed
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2007, 04:02:10 PM »

Thanks Kitz, but I'm still none the wiser.
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kitz

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Re: Beta Testers Needed
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2007, 04:33:09 PM »

yeah I think I know whatcha mean... and Ive probably bitten off more than I can chew at attempting to do this on me own :(

Thanks chris ever so much for the help with the ripe stuff  I really do appreciate it...
but Im right back to where I was before and still have too much missing info - only this time its worse since I cant differentiate between the likes of some ISPs. :/ 

I may have to fall back on the previous system of netnames and rely on people to tell me if theres missing blocks of IP ranges - I expected there would be hence the beta period until my database had chance to build up its own records.

I may look at seeing if I can do a combined system - need to think when my head isnt spinning.
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mr_chris

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Re: Beta Testers Needed
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2007, 08:27:04 PM »

Floydy... lemme try explain the basics of the system to you.

There is a European registrar responsible for all IP addresses that have been allocated to Europe. This registrar company is called RIPE.

Say I owned ChrisNet Ltd™, which is a fictitious ISP, and I wanted a block of IP addresses to use.
I would have to register my details with RIPE. I am allocated what's called an AS Number (explained above) by RIPE, and this is my unique identifier within the RIPE system.

So in RIPE's database, I am not known as ChrisNet, I am actually known as (e.g.) AS12345.
I can also put in an AS-Name which is simply a description for any human beings reading the RIPE database who might not know which company AS12345 refers to. This AS Name is generally a shortened version of the proper ISP name e.g. it might be CHRIS-NET or CHRISNET-AS rather than "ChrisNet Ltd™"

So to recap, I am called ChrisNet Ltd™, my AS number is 12345 and my AS is CHRISNET-AS

About my IP address allocation.. RIPE allocate me some IP addresses and assign them to the AS number 12345 (my ISP).

Now all this data is available publically, so from an IP address, the system we're developing can send a query to RIPE which will give me back the AS number (12345).

From the AS number I can look up the AS Name (CHRISNET-AS).

From this AS name, kitz has (is building up!) her own database that matches AS names to 'real' ISP names, which is displayed to you on the screen.

So in Kitz's table, there may be entries such as this:

Code: [Select]
BEUNLIMITED | Be
ZEN-AS      | Zen
CHRISNET-AS | ChrisNet Ltd™

etc.
So step by step, we have to look up each bit in turn, and each time we get a piece of different information that helps us piece together actually which ISP the IP address belongs to!

Unfortunately, the data isn't quite as 'clean' as you'd like it to be, and over the years ISPs have used loads of different and obscure AS names, which don't match the name of the ISP at all! So it's a bit of a nightmare.

Hope that helps :)
« Last Edit: December 13, 2007, 08:29:37 PM by mr_chris »
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Chris

mr_chris

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Re: Beta Testers Needed
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2007, 08:30:55 PM »

Note to kitz - I'm sure with a bit of perseverance we can look up on AS number to ISP instead of AS Name... I've just read your post. It wouldn't be that difficult to change the code to do that instead, and we'll cache the as name where there is one so you know who most of them are at a glance!
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Chris

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Re: Beta Testers Needed
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2007, 10:36:44 PM »

The as-name can change as far as I know. It is just a descriptor after all.

Eg Big ISP buys small ISP (LIR would be more accurate) so the AS number would become part of the bigger ISP. The as-name (a descriptor field remember) should change to reflect that but it doesn't have to - big ISP could choose to call it legacy_customers_that_we _dont_make_a_penny_from if they wished :D

What's complicating this is that you are looking for what you'd call an ISP. Thing is that an "ISP" is technically a LIR (local internet registry) - eg Netconnex (TBB) is a LIR but they don't provide internet access*. You can (and do) have the situation where one LIR sells connectivity to another and provides address space as well.

I wonder if there's a way to cull the data down a bit?
* rizla will have a think

*well they do but not in the way that the average person would call "internet access"
« Last Edit: December 13, 2007, 10:46:28 PM by rizla »
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kitz

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Re: Beta Testers Needed
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2007, 12:10:01 AM »

>> I'm sure with a bit of perseverance we can look up on AS number

Thats what I thought - and what I'd been trying but Ive ended up in a worse situation because now theres a whole pile of missing ISPs ... lol you have ..  about 5 ISPs - ie BT, Tiscali, Virgin  etc. - ok slight exaggeration but the batch of take over and mergers over the past year means that its proving difficult using this method to identify say Bulldog, Nildram etc if you get the picture :(
Hence the scream this afty :D

>> The as-name can change as far as I know

From what Ive seen it obviously does.. not only that theres many that are just "UNSPECIFIED", yet they may be say C+W

The only way forward I can think right now is doing some sort of combination of Netname, ASNo, and my own list of IP ranges.
I need to think much deeper into this.  Once we have caught and built up the records everything should work.. its building up that damn cache in the first place.

We know the netname seems to pull up a lot of the indiv ISPs, but theres obviously no way to catch them all using this method.  Therefore was keeping a cache of IP ranges from the ones people advised.
The ASno >> ASname looked as if it would catch all the UK IP ranges - which it does...  but from the info I can pull back from querying ripe this way is too broad spectrumed for some ISPs in view of the recent takeovers.

Believe it or not to get just whats there now there must be at least 30+ php files each with 100/1000s of lines of code.
Like I say - talk about jumping in at the deep-end... and hence whats kept me so quiet over the past couple of months :D
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kitz

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Re: Beta Testers Needed
« Reply #39 on: January 12, 2008, 02:26:55 PM »

OK update on this - and partially the reason why Ive been so quiet over the past week or so.
The AS number/name system wasnt able to correctly identify far too many ISPs and therefore its been back to the drawing board.

I have something new in place muchly based on the original system, but it now has a lot more IP info in to start with which has been obtained by long manual trawling through ripe info.  Obviously there will always be the odd one that will crop up, and as time goes by the system will generate its own cache.  As with anything of this type the more info thats put in, then the better it will work.. so its got to start somewhere.

Can I say a huge thanks to chris for giving me help with the RIPE ASname stuff,
Without his help and encouragement this project would likely have been abandoned at the last hurdle.

----------------------------

So its back to you guys and beta-testing time again please.  As previous - the function which stops "duplicates" is turned off to enable testing.

Theres a lot of "gumph" in the test database so atm the ISPs actual ratings are far from a true reflection. For now I dont care much whats in the comments and the system will be reset when it goes live.

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UncleUB

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Re: Beta Testers Needed
« Reply #40 on: January 12, 2008, 02:36:01 PM »

Worked  fine for me  :) Everything looked good.
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mr_chris

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Re: Beta Testers Needed
« Reply #41 on: January 12, 2008, 02:36:23 PM »

Let me add to this - there is a HUGE amount of work that Kitz has put into this on both the front end, and back-end with with all the rating system database stuff itself... and I must admit I've put in a fair whack myself with regards to the ISP detection routines.

I have gotta say, good idea though it was, Rizla, that the AS numbers are a complete red, no, BLOOD RED(!!) herring... all the ISP acquisitions are being incorporated into their new parent, so that was pretty much a no-go, which we only discovered AFTER completing all the code to make it work  :wall:

So yes, please try it, break it, mess it up, most importantly PLEASE report any problems you find with it or any other suggestions you have. :)
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Chris

Floydoid

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Re: Beta Testers Needed
« Reply #42 on: January 12, 2008, 03:29:48 PM »

Rated my ISP again, surprisingly with the exact same star ratings and similar comments as before. :)

May I go home early now please Miss?
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roseway

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Re: Beta Testers Needed
« Reply #43 on: January 12, 2008, 03:36:09 PM »

It all works very well here. Only one very tiny comment - the screen which compares up to 6 ISPs lays itself out slightly oddly, because the blocks of data for some ISPs take up more vertical space than others. An example is attached.

[attachment deleted by admin]
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  Eric

mr_chris

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Re: Beta Testers Needed
« Reply #44 on: January 12, 2008, 03:53:39 PM »

ooo...what browser is that eric?

I suspect it's just some table code that needs tweaking somewhere... heh - over to you kitz - the 'pretty stuff' is all your department ;) :P
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Chris
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