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Author Topic: near future gazing  (Read 7440 times)

sheddyian

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near future gazing
« on: September 04, 2012, 10:22:48 PM »

Given how astounded I still am that, 30 years on from hugely expensive (and thick) ethernet cables, taps etc that gave us 10megabit/s over a max of (was it 150 metre? I forget now.  Not very far) we can do 20megabit/s over a kilometre or two on simple twisted pair phone wire that really wasn't designed for it...

What's next on the horizon?

Obviously, FTTx is a big thing being rolled out. 

But is there further development to improve on ADSL2+ to increase either bandwidth or performance over longer distance?

Ian
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asbokid

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Re: near future gazing
« Reply #1 on: September 05, 2012, 12:18:11 AM »

Given how astounded I still am that, 30 years on from hugely expensive (and thick) ethernet cables, taps etc that gave us 10megabit/s over a max of (was it 150 metre? I forget now.  Not very far) we can do 20megabit/s over a kilometre or two on simple twisted pair phone wire that really wasn't designed for it...

What's next on the horizon?

There's certainly room for improvement in IP over satellite services.

Geostationary communications satellites, or "extra-terrestrial rocket station radio relays" as they once were known, were foreseen by Arthur C. Clarke right back in 1945.

These satellites hover at an altitude of some 30,000 kilometres above the tropics. Fixed in what we now call the "Clarke Belt". An orbital belt named in honour of the late great science fiction writer.

There is an enormous propagation distance - 60,000km - to the Clarke Belt and back again. And that brings with it the major problem of signal latency.   Sending/ack'ing a TCP packet via the Clarke Belt adds a round-trip latency of some 500 milliseconds. A half a second delay to the communication.  [For proof, recall that photons travels in free space at ~300,000 kilometres per second]

So this currently precludes the use of IP-over-Sat for any real-time packet-based communication where data integrity is critical.  A damned nuisance!

More recently, however, NASA has gotten its International Space Station (ISS) to hover at just 300km altitude. An amazingly low altitude. The same trifling distance as London to Liverpool.   In fact, 300km is so low that the ISS should be almost visible with the naked eye. Certainly it should be obvious on a clear night with decent optics.

So what does this mean for IP-over-Sat?  Well if a "transponder" (or two) was somehow glued to the side of the ISS, and if the ISS was fixed to a geostationary point at a 300km altitude, then we could have IP-over-sat, but without that previously prohibitive latency of 500ms.

The round-trip delay for an ultra low-altitude satellite link between NY to London would be almost the same as for a fixed wire connection.  No need to lay any more of those costly transatlantic submarine cables!

So that's perhaps the vision for broadband in the 21st century.  Farewell to DSL and hullo to IP-over-Sat!

How long before we see satellites hovering at perilously low altitudes? Mind your heads!  Perhaps no higher than the F2 layer of the ionosphere (~275km)? And offering terabit bandwidths at microwave frequencies with minimal latency?

If ever that becomes reality, we can finally kiss goodbye to the likes of BT and Virgin Media.

cheers, a
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 05:11:34 AM by asbokid »
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kitz

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Re: near future gazing
« Reply #2 on: September 05, 2012, 01:08:45 AM »

I dunno much about satellite - Asbo is the expert on that and at what height theyre at  ;)- so I shall ask the obvious (to me anyhow)...  what about the uplink?
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burakkucat

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Re: near future gazing
« Reply #3 on: September 05, 2012, 01:22:49 AM »

Quote
what about the uplink?

You'll need some form of dish system, carefully aligned. Just like the current Sky "chimney-woks".  ;)

(P.s. Just between the two of us, Asbokid and I are working on a high-powered laser beam for the ground to satellite to ground transmission subsystem. Unfortunately we keep getting bothered by a typical "Bond Villain", who has tried to commandeer our test equipment to use as a "Death Ray" and, thus, obtain world domination.  ::)  )
« Last Edit: September 05, 2012, 01:28:38 AM by burakkucat »
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kitz

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Re: near future gazing
« Reply #4 on: September 05, 2012, 01:42:00 AM »

Told you i didn't know much about satellite was about to go google chimney woks...

But I've just seen your edit...  Ok you and asbo - between u are winding me up tonight aren't you  :lol:   :lol:    :lol:
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burakkucat

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Re: near future gazing
« Reply #5 on: September 05, 2012, 03:41:43 AM »

Quote
Ok you and asbo - between u are winding me up tonight aren't you  :lol:   :lol:    :lol:

That's right. Just like a Martini -- Any time, any place, any where.  :angel:

(If I remember the advertisement correctly, from a long time ago . . . )
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asbokid

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Re: near future gazing
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2012, 05:30:28 AM »

Since 2005, our satellite dish has been tucked behind the dustbin. (It must be said that's where it belongs).  It was only under duress that I agreed to install the wretched thing. Our Wayne, always keen on his politics, was mithering to watch BBC Parliament.  So up the ladder I went, armed with cable clips, compass, satfinder, best coax, plugs, drill, screws and, of course, with Our Daisy, bless her, weighting things down at the bottom.  Only to discover after nailing the dish to the wall, that some fool had built a church (circa 1846) slap bang in the critical line of sight (28.2°E).    God works in mysterious ways!   :angel:
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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: near future gazing
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2012, 09:17:43 AM »

More recently, however, NASA has gotten its International Space Station (ISS) to hover at just 300km altitude. An amazingly low altitude.

Wearing my pedants hat I have to say... Really?   

My understanding is that orbit altitude is a function of orbit velocity and gravity, so there really can only be one geostationary orbit.   The ISS orbits something like 16 times a day and if the ISS were to slow down, or speed up, the force of gravity would simply move it to a different orbiting altitude.  Or am I missing something   ???

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tonyappuk

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Re: near future gazing
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2012, 11:45:02 AM »

7LM just beat me to it. There is no way the ISS is in geostationary orbit although it is low.
Tony
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asbokid

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Re: near future gazing
« Reply #9 on: September 05, 2012, 01:46:51 PM »

You are right guys. The International Space Station would need to be hovering in a geostationary position to be any use as a "comms satellite".  I was just marvelling at its remarkably low altitude.  On occasion, barely 300km high.  Almost counter-intuitive, given the hulking mass of the thing. Over 40 tonnes of it, apparently. Incredible technology that constantly tweaks those tiny thrusters to keep it up there.  Mind-boggling!

Interesting topic altogether: "the gravitational force of the earth as a function of distance from its centre of mass".  Must need the best brains around to figure out the balance of forces. How to keep it in perfect equilibrium and stop it from tumbling on our heads!   Still, look what they achieved with just a Z80 CPU and 1KB of RAM in 1969.

Could IP-over-Sat be the future for internet access? Using comms satellites in ultra-low geostationary orbit? Hovering no higher than 275km (refractive electron density peak of the ionosphere)?   Maybe spelling the end for fixed wire backhaul? Game over for BT and Branson?

cheers, a

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sevenlayermuddle

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Re: near future gazing
« Reply #10 on: September 05, 2012, 02:35:38 PM »

One thought that entered my head this morning, when considering this, was the question of whether a matrix of fast-moving low-orbit satellites, similar to GPS, could possibly be used for broadband data?

The consumer equipment could have a non-directional antenna, again like an ordinary GPS receiver, so they can just receive data from whichever satellite they can see. 

The hard bit would be the satellite's transmitting antennas as these probably would need to be directional and therefor constantly refocussing, in order break the service up into discreet cells, hence optimise data coverage.  I really don't know whether such antennas would be feasible?

Not sure about the uplink either.  I suspect a ground-based transmitter, hoping to reach the satellites, would need to be uneconomically powerful if it were non-directional.
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sheddyian

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Re: near future gazing
« Reply #11 on: September 05, 2012, 03:21:17 PM »

I was actually more wondering about improvements to ADSL 2+ technology, better DSP, noise filtering, packet compression etc that might extend reach and increase speed over existing copper  :D

But the satelite discussion has been interesting  :)

Around the time of the last meteor shower (11 August) it coincided with some very bright passes overhead of the ISS, I went outside at the appropriate time and was treated to seeing the ISS pass over from West to overhead before disappearing into Earth shadow, and then not long afterwards, saw a shooting star as well  :)

Got dates of ISS fly over from a website that I can't remember right now.  Will come back and edit this if I can rediscover it

Ian

nb so it's definitely not geostationary, as you can watch it fly over :)
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asbokid

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Re: near future gazing
« Reply #12 on: September 06, 2012, 10:21:31 PM »

Always has me wondering how professional astronomers distinguish all those dots that move across our skies.  How do they tell the International Space Station from all the Near Earth Asteroids?

According to wonkypedia, [1] there are circa 9,000 Near Earth Asteroids (NEA). Many of them have been spinning around our planet since The Beginning.

Imagine if NASA got confused one day while tracking the International Space Station (ISS).  What if they got the ISS muddled up with some random NEA!


International Space Station? Nope. This is YU55, just another pesky Near Earth Asteroid [2]

I've yet to get lucky with my camera but others have gotten some incredible photos of the ISS.  Here's a stunning amateur snap of the ISS. It was published by the Daily Mail. [3]

Obviously taken with a very capable camera. In spite of the intensity of the sun, saturating the image sensor with light energy, the ISS is still clearly visible. Amazing!


And look closely..  For an extra bonus point (not that one was needed) the photographer also captured the Space Shuttle Atlantis, too!   Incredible!


cheers, a

[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Near-Earth_object
[2]
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZGutCiW5mic
[3] http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sciencetech/article-1279952/Nasa-shuttle-Atlantis-space-station-seen-passing-Sun.html
« Last Edit: September 06, 2012, 11:05:40 PM by asbokid »
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kitz

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Re: near future gazing
« Reply #13 on: September 06, 2012, 10:33:58 PM »

Quote
In spite of the intensity of the sun, saturating the camera image sensor with light energy, the ISS is still clearly visible. Amazing!

Incredible!
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