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Author Topic: FTTC - Attenuation Levels  (Read 6390 times)

Bald_Eagle1

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FTTC - Attenuation Levels
« on: June 24, 2012, 08:43:12 AM »

Mainly @ BlackEagle & JoshShep, but anyone's comments appreciated.

I have been trying to determine whether my connection's LINE & SIGNAL attenuation levels look about right for my distance from the cabinet.

AS you know, I initially achieved higher speeds & apparent stability on the old 8C profile, until I lost my services for 4 days (reason still not specifically clarified).

Now that my updated scripts (still being tested before final release) show DS & US LINE & SIGNAL Attenuation in the Ongoing graphs, I am getting a better idea of general attenuation levels.

Unfortunately, we don't have any attenuation/speed/distance calculators available at this time.

However, trying my DS band D1 LINE attenuation of around 22dB in the Kitz ADSL calculator, a line length of 1.6km is calculated.

This has been fairly steady since I have been able to see my connection stats, even on the slightly different 8C D1 band plan.

What are your typical Line & Signal attenuation values & entering that value in the Kitz calculator, how close to reality is the result?

Having physically measured what I now believe to be the actual route of my connection as probably a little less than 1km  (hopefully to be confirmed soon), for me, the Kitz calculator result is around 1.6 times the physical length.

From your results, we may be able to determine some sort of ratio to use for calculating a typical line length via the calculator.

What I do NOT know, is what my line/signal attenuation levels were when I enjoyed the higher speed & stable initial 8C connection.

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NewtronStar

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Re: FTTC - Attenuation Levels
« Reply #1 on: June 24, 2012, 08:24:02 PM »

I can't see my attenuation yet on the HG612 but yours seems ok at 21.
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: FTTC - Attenuation Levels
« Reply #2 on: June 24, 2012, 08:43:44 PM »

The attenuation graphs will be in the next update (soon).

My attenuation doesn't always look so steady though.

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snadge

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Re: FTTC - Attenuation Levels
« Reply #3 on: June 27, 2012, 09:11:12 AM »

I may be wrong here.... but...  you get different Attenuation figures when using different types of DSL (due to the different amount of tones used and attenuation over them), therefore would it be safe to say that reading estimated line length results from kitz calculator for ADSL1/2+ would not be same for VDSL2-8c..? hence 1.6Km is estimate for those on ADSL, not VDSL2-8c...???

....something like that anyway ..lol

we know that Line Attenuation is an 'average' of the attenuation over the tones in use (not the tones available) , so someone on ADSL1 does not have the same line attenuation when on ADSL2+ (especially on shorter lines) because they are using more/different tones, therefore line attenuation figure differs, so it would be safe to assume the line length estimation would differ too when trying to work out line length for VDSL2 from a ADSL calculator
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: FTTC - Attenuation Levels
« Reply #4 on: June 27, 2012, 01:45:45 PM »

I may be wrong here.... but...  you get different Attenuation figures when using different types of DSL (due to the different amount of tones used and attenuation over them), therefore would it be safe to say that reading estimated line length results from kitz calculator for ADSL1/2+ would not be same for VDSL2-8c..? hence 1.6Km is estimate for those on ADSL, not VDSL2-8c...???

....something like that anyway ..lol


yes, 1.6km is for ADSL, not VDSL2.

Quote
we know that Line Attenuation is an 'average' of the attenuation over the tones in use (not the tones available) , so someone on ADSL1 does not have the same line attenuation when on ADSL2+ (especially on shorter lines) because they are using more/different tones, therefore line attenuation figure differs, so it would be safe to assume the line length estimation would differ too when trying to work out line length for VDSL2 from a ADSL calculator

These are the tone bands for my VDSL2 connection:-

Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (868,1207) (1972,2783)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1963) (2792,3959)


Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (868,1207)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1963)

Due to high attenuation, you can see that my connection is unable to use any of the higher frequency tones at Medley Phase anyway.

Downstream band D1 can use tones 32 to 859, although tones 32 to 95 overlap & "share" with Upstream.

ADSL2+ uses up to tone 511.
I don't know how to reliably calculate what my attenuation would be reported as if only using up to tone 511.
The Kitz calculator suggests 14dB for a 1km line length.

859 = 511 x 1.68

22.4dB = 1.6 x 14 dB

An easy answer would be to multiply the kitz result by 1.6 or 1.7 to give an approximate result for VDSL2 connections when using D1 attenuation values.
That however, seems far too simplistic an approach & highly likely to be incorrect.

However, if the common multiplier was indeed 1.6 or 1.7 (let's say 1.65) when cross-referenced with other users' connections.....................................


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kitz

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Re: FTTC - Attenuation Levels
« Reply #5 on: June 27, 2012, 03:04:51 PM »

I'll be honest and say I dont really have a clue, I know with adsl1 and adsl2+ it doesnt go in a straight line and the curve is steeper in some parts.  I spent a full day with a zoomed in pic of this plotting atten v kbps. 

Some people assume its a straightforward multiple of 13 point something... but I can assure you its not - thats just the very easy part (dB to km)..  the speed calc was the hard part and each 500kbps has a slightly different calculation than its neighbour..  meaning that the function has about 30+ different bands.  Richards linear formula came in quite handy too and saved me quite a bit of work.
The whole thing took me about a week to do (and I know someone nabbed some of the source when it was still in its infancy).

However that said, I would imagine that tone frequency allocation to length may bear some correlation, but without hard figures to substantiate this I havent a clue what the linear calculation would be :/
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