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Author Topic: 12 days after 80/20 install - help please - possible line fault  (Read 46038 times)

eliw

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Had my FTTC installed 12 days ago - the sync speeds have been disappointing since day one - but to add insult to injury the DLM rerated me down about 10mbits (from 58mbits down to 48mbits) for a reason that escapes me since the modem has been in synch for 12 solid days without a single dropout.

First let me explain that I think there is an issue with my line - 2 years ago, after some heavy snowfalls, we had to have our line replaced because a tree branch fell on it and snapped the cable... we were then on BE ADSL - before the line change our sync was roughly around 22mbit/s on Annex M or around 23mbit/s on annex A, after the line was changed this dropped to around 18 mbit/s on annex M and around 19 mbit/s on annex A - I remember the engineer who replaced the line struggling for a good hour or so after he connected the new cable to get a dial tone... anyway despite the drop in download sync I didnt bother do anything and the connection stayed like that ever since... rock solid connection on 3db not a single resynch in years albeit with a couple of mbits less.

Anyway now that I upgraded to FTTC I believe that fatal line change is affecting my line more than it did on ADSL - BT estimate that my line capable of 55 down and 13 up (as you know this is always conservative) but I am synching at 58 / 8 - I am only around 300 meters from the cabinet and I reckon I should get more - the annoying thing is that I am paying the full wack for this line (business + multiple IPs) and what's more anoying is that the DLM thing has decided to drop me down to 48mbit/s despite no reconnections whatsoever. The pings are also not superb.. ping to my direct BT side gateway (217.32.147.7) is around 16ms when in all fairness it should average the 5ms levels (I attached below a traceroute to the BBC as well).

I will be ever so greatful to anyone here who could explain to me the best course of action to have my line tested (full tests) to determine if there is a fault that is causing these abnormally low figures especially on the upload side when considering that I am no more than 300m from the cabinet.

Please have a look at my stats below from the hacked HG612 modem :

Code: [Select]
# xdslcmd info --pbParams
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Max:    Upstream rate = 8836 Kbps, Downstream rate = 58488 Kbps
Path:   0, Upstream rate = 8869 Kbps, Downstream rate = 48677 Kbps

Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (868,1207) (1972,2783)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1963) (2792,3959)
Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (868,1207) (1972,2783)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1963)
       VDSL Port Details       Upstream        Downstream
Attainable Net Data Rate:       8836 kbps         58488 kbps
Actual Aggregate Tx Power:        3.8 dBm          12.3 dBm
============================================================================
  VDSL Band Status        U0      U1      U2      U3      D1      D2      D3
  Line Attenuation(dB):  6.9     35.9    53.6     N/A    17.1    44.7    66.2
Signal Attenuation(dB):  10.3    35.1    51.4     N/A    17.1    44.7     N/A
        SNR Margin(dB):  6.2     6.1     6.1      N/A    6.4     6.7      N/A
         TX Power(dBm): -4.3    -7.1     2.5      N/A    10.5    7.6      N/A

Code: [Select]
# xdslcmd info --show
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: Showtime
Retrain Reason: 0
Max:    Upstream rate = 8847 Kbps, Downstream rate = 58488 Kbps
Path:   0, Upstream rate = 8869 Kbps, Downstream rate = 48677 Kbps

Link Power State:       L0
Mode:                   VDSL2 Annex B
VDSL2 Profile:          Profile 17a
TPS-TC:                 PTM Mode
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):        6.6             6.1
Attn(dB):        0.0             0.0
Pwr(dBm):        12.3            3.8
                        VDSL2 framing
                        Path 0
B:              34              237
M:              1               1
T:              64              38
R:              8               16
S:              0.0229          0.8523
L:              15036           2384
D:              1427            1
I:              43              127
N:              43              254
                        Counters
                        Path 0
OHF:            21770716                1785459
OHFErr:         112             27
RS:             4065084502              1903483
RSCorr:         244508          55
RSUnCorr:       10130           0

                        Path 0
HEC:            1756            0
OCD:            0               0
LCD:            0               0
Total Cells:    198558905               0
Data Cells:     123318744               0
Drop Cells:     0
Bit Errors:     0               0

ES:             12              27
SES:            0               0
UAS:            15              15
AS:             48005

                        Path 0
INP:            3.00            0.00
PER:            2.19            8.09
delay:          8.00            0.00
OR:             87.41           31.61

Bitswap:        8325            358

Code: [Select]
Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [212.58.241.131]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

  1    <1 ms    <1 ms    <1 ms  192.168.0.1
  2    13 ms    13 ms    16 ms  217.32.147.7
  3    16 ms    15 ms    15 ms  217.32.147.46
  4    17 ms    16 ms    16 ms  213.120.177.74
  5    16 ms    16 ms    16 ms  217.41.168.213
  6    17 ms    17 ms    17 ms  217.41.168.109
  7    16 ms    16 ms    17 ms  acc2-10GigE-0-0-0-5.l-far.21cn-ipp.bt.net [109.159.249.206]
  8    23 ms    23 ms    23 ms  core2-te0-15-0-5.faraday.ukcore.bt.net [109.159.249.155]
  9    19 ms    19 ms    19 ms  213.131.193.78
 10    17 ms    18 ms    18 ms  peer2-xe9-1-0.telehouse.ukcore.bt.net [109.159.254.114]
 11    18 ms    18 ms    18 ms  194.74.65.42
 12     *        *        *     Request timed out.
 13    18 ms    18 ms    18 ms  ae1.er01.rbsov.bbc.co.uk [132.185.254.46]
 14    17 ms    18 ms    18 ms  132.185.255.134
 15    18 ms    17 ms    18 ms  212.58.241.131

Trace complete.


Thanks for reading.

E
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 05:06:33 PM by eliw »
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: 12 days after 80/20 install - help please - possible line fault
« Reply #1 on: May 15, 2012, 05:19:40 PM »

Hi eliw & welcome to the Kitz forum.

This shouldn't take long to sort out  ;) :lol:.

I first reported my FTTC issues last July after a solid month's connection & am currently awaiting confirmation of yet another engineer's visit.

Firstly, for only 300m from the cabinet, your DS Attainable Rates of only 58488k & US of only 8836k look abysmal.

Are you 100% sure you are connected to the cab at 300m distance?
Some users have found they are not actually connected to the nearest cab at all. 

Also, your attenuation looks too high to even achieve anything from the higher frequency band plan.
It is discovered, but not actually in use:-

Discovery Phase (Initial) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (868,1207) (1972,2783)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1963) (2792,3959)

Medley Phase (Final) Band Plan
US: (0,95) (868,1207) (1972,2783)
DS: (32,859) (1216,1963)    - only the lower frequency tones in use.  

This suggests to me a major physical line problem, or that your line really is a lot more than 300m in total length.

EDIT:
DLM can completely knacker up your sync speeds, but should NOT really affect your attainable rates at all
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 05:21:59 PM by Bald_Eagle1 »
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eliw

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Re: 12 days after 80/20 install - help please - possible line fault
« Reply #2 on: May 15, 2012, 06:26:12 PM »

I live in a small town - the only cabinets are clearly out there on the one and only main road in the area - the closest one is at about 300m and some other ones are along the road, one at roughly 500m and one about the same distance the other way..

Is there anything I can do to find out to which cab im connected to, and what the actual line length is ?

How do I go about getting an engineer round ? I am just worried that BT will give me an answer along the lines of "your performance is decent enough - we can't help you" - I have a business contract with BT with the "assured rate" service level - anyone have any number I should call to get to some decent CS team for this type of service level ?

Is 16ms to the first hop normal on FTTC ?

Thanks again for your help.
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burakkucat

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Re: 12 days after 80/20 install - help please - possible line fault
« Reply #3 on: May 15, 2012, 06:36:44 PM »

If you are willing to extend a degree of trust, please send me a PM with your postcode and your exchange code (there is no need form me to know your full telephone number). With that information, I will see what I can determine with respect to your PCP/FTTC cabinet number.
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eliw

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Re: 12 days after 80/20 install - help please - possible line fault
« Reply #4 on: May 15, 2012, 08:00:58 PM »

I am willing to extend everything - a degree of trust is certainly not an issue  :)
PM sent
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Blackeagle

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Re: 12 days after 80/20 install - help please - possible line fault
« Reply #5 on: May 15, 2012, 10:11:19 PM »

Looks quite similar to my aluminium D side line.
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burakkucat

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Re: 12 days after 80/20 install - help please - possible line fault
« Reply #6 on: May 15, 2012, 10:14:07 PM »

I am willing to extend everything - a degree of trust is certainly not an issue  :)
PM sent

Thank you.  :)

On searching the Postcode to PCP database, I have found the matching record and the relevant portion of the line reads --

Quote
{THC}{P51},0,100%,2.32,5a,Yes,FTTC

This tells us that your business line is connected via P51. So the next step would be to find its location . . . I tried with Google Maps Streetview but because of your location, the relevant section of P* Avenue was un-photographed.

I have found P27 at the junction of B*dale Road and N* Avenue, so that is an example of for what you should be looking. The only suggestion I can make is to have a walk around the area -- weather permitting -- keeping a look-out for P51. When you find it, the corresponding FTTC should be in close proximity.

With regards to support, are you with BT Retail for your telephone and broadband service? If so, there is a U.K. based customer support centre available to you. I think the number you need to call, for BT Infinity for Business support, is 0800 169 3809. There is also a URL for dedicated business support pages -- www.bt.com/business/help/fibre.

I hope the above will help. Please keep us updated with the progress.
« Last Edit: May 15, 2012, 10:17:15 PM by burakkucat »
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eliw

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Re: 12 days after 80/20 install - help please - possible line fault
« Reply #7 on: May 16, 2012, 01:38:20 AM »

Thank you.

I have seen P27 before and it does not have an FTTC cabinet near it... as for the cabinet that I suspect being the one I am connected to (with an FTTC cabinet near it) - it has no numbers on it at least on the front and the exposed side. May need to go and look at the other side or back (hopefully won't be suspected of vandalism).

There are a lot of cabinets here with SCC and a 4 digit number after that - similar to SCC1050 ect.. what are these for ? Virgin ?
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burakkucat

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Re: 12 days after 80/20 install - help please - possible line fault
« Reply #8 on: May 16, 2012, 02:27:25 AM »

Quote
as for the cabinet that I suspect being the one I am connected to (with an FTTC cabinet near it) - it has no numbers on it at least on the front and the exposed side. May need to go and look at the other side or back (hopefully won't be suspected of vandalism).

If anyone should question you, just say that the burakkucat told you to make a careful external examination! Also, if you can do so, a photograph of both cabinets and details of their location would be appreciated, please. (Feline curiosity, as I'm sure you've guessed.)

Quote
There are a lot of cabinets here with SCC and a 4 digit number after that - similar to SCC1050 ect.. what are these for ? Virgin ?

Yes, Virgin Media would the at the head of my list of suspects.  ;)  I wonder if Walter would care to comment, as we are discussing cabinets in a Guildford postcode area?  :-\
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 02:30:06 AM by burakkucat »
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eliw

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Re: 12 days after 80/20 install - help please - possible line fault
« Reply #9 on: May 16, 2012, 03:32:42 PM »

Checked the cabinet that I thought was ours and it is indeed ours PCP51, so good news there as it is the closest one to us and is about 350 - 400 meters or so from us.

I called the BT business broadband help line (0800 169 3809) and explained the problem, they ran "tests" and checked my profile and as expected said that there was nothing wrong and that they can't help me despite me explaining that the cabinet (and even the exchange) arent far away from us .. she said the speed test is within their range..

What are my options now ? How can I get an engineer (who knows about brodband) to come check the line ?

I feel this is the beginning of a long battle :(
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burakkucat

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Re: 12 days after 80/20 install - help please - possible line fault
« Reply #10 on: May 16, 2012, 05:47:59 PM »

So there is some good and some not so good news.

I'm pleased to know that you have located the PCP/FTTC pair, designated as P5, which serves your business. Would you be willing to disclose their location, please? (Road name?)

At that sort of distance, a good line should be capable of achieving 39.9 Mbps DS when capped to 40/10 whilst on profile 17a. A montage of the line statistics (400 metres to the cabinets) is attached, below. I do not have any corresponding data for that line (my neighbour's) without the 40/10 cap . . .

As for long battles over poorly performing lines, I think Bald_Eagle1 will be your best advisor/confidant and as for poorly maintained BT infrastructure, Walter will always have something to type.  ::)
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: 12 days after 80/20 install - help please - possible line fault
« Reply #11 on: May 16, 2012, 07:29:03 PM »


I called the BT business broadband help line (0800 169 3809) and explained the problem, they ran "tests" and checked my profile and as expected said that there was nothing wrong and that they can't help me despite me explaining that the cabinet (and even the exchange) arent far away from us .. she said the speed test is within their range..


I have heard/read comments very similar to those a number of times  :(

Quote

What are my options now ? How can I get an engineer (who knows about brodband) to come check the line ?


That's the hardest part.
The onus of proof that something is "wrong" appears to be on the end user.
That's not particularly easy when supplied with locked down equipment either.

However, where there is the will, there is usually a way  ;)

If you have a strong enough will, we may be able to assist with the way.

Quote

I feel this is the beginning of a long battle :(


I suspect you may well be right there  ::)


Firstly, to prove a fault(s), you need to record your connection stats, both as snapshots in time & as ongoing records that may highlight gradual/sudden changes, dropped connections, events at particular times of day or night etc. etc. etc.

MY connection has required that many engineer visits that I have genuinely lost count now.
However, each time, some "repair" work has been carried out & I haven't been charged a penny to date.

I am currently awaiting confirmation of the date of the next engineer's visit for which I again will not expect to be charged as I have undeniable proof of an intermittent fault that surfaces when using the phone during warm & dry weather.
The engineer's visit will be programmed according to weather forecasts, probably during next week.

If you are a Windows user, my scripts can be used for the above mentioned data collection & graphing.

I have also maintained an ongoing log of my IP Profiles from which the attached graph has been plotted (I am a few days behind with updating that log, but my other ongoing logs contain sufficient data to easily update it in a day or so).

Columns & columns & rows & rows of stats are required, but they do need to be graphed for the maximum effect that makes people take notice.


These various graphs have been the only evidence that has disproved my ISP's & BT's comments that my connection is performing within acceptable limits.

We'll be here for the long slog with you, if that's what it takes.

Good luck  :)
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 07:31:54 PM by Bald_Eagle1 »
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burakkucat

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Re: 12 days after 80/20 install - help please - possible line fault
« Reply #12 on: May 16, 2012, 07:49:36 PM »

What would be most useful is a TDR plot of the line. It doesn't have to be an Openreach engineer that obtains one but if one could be bribed (tea. coffee, biscuits [chocolate], bacon sandwiches, etc) to assist, that would be the simplest way.

Of those of us who do have the appropriate equipment Bald_Eagle1, Asbokid and myself all live too far away. The one other person, Surrey based, with a Guildford area postcode, capable of obtaining a TDR plot is Walter. Obviously he would need to consider the distance and whether it would be a viable day out. (Perhaps, as part of a day-trip out in the car for Mrs Walter, Walter could say "Oh look, were at X. I'm sure you won't mind me popping in to see Eli for half-an-hour, will you dearest?"  :-X  )
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eliw

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Re: 12 days after 80/20 install - help please - possible line fault
« Reply #13 on: May 16, 2012, 08:32:13 PM »

Thanks for that both of you.

I have the will it is just that my issue is not as clear cut as yours Baldeagle. There is a form on the BT site somewhere where you can request an engineer visit (chargeable at 99 if the fault is on your side or no fault) t but I would like to make sure that the guy they send has the right equipment/knowledge and most importantly the open mind to pursue a genuine investigation. The lad they sent to change our phone line last year gave the impression of someone who has never used the internet.

As for the information you requested Burakkucat, I went back to the cabinet and used my mobile GPS to measure the exact distance from there to the Master socket :) - and the distance is slightly longer than I expected (480m) ..

PCP 51 is at the corner of Park Road (main road) and Heatherdale Avenue. Streetview doesnt show the new cab yet even though it was installed around Jan 2011

Here is a pic of PCP 51:


This is the FTTC Cab:


And here you can see them both:






Regards

E
« Last Edit: May 16, 2012, 08:49:43 PM by eliw »
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asbokid

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Re: 12 days after 80/20 install - help please - possible line fault
« Reply #14 on: May 16, 2012, 09:23:13 PM »

It sounds like you've measured the loop length pretty precisely, to have arrived at a figure of 480 metres.  If you're still doubtful, maybe you could double check the length using a map. Some local authorities grant online access to the Definitive Map for their administrative area.   From what Walter has said, Surrey CC is one of those authorities.  Otherwise, there is a Measuring Tool feature in Google Maps that can also be used.  It has to be enabled first via Google Labs, though.

You've unlocked the Huawei, so maybe get the line performance stats out of it now, using Paul's (BaldEagle) scripts. These will allow you to study the line performance in the frequency domain.  They may help you to identify the nature of the fault - assuming there is one.

cheers, a
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