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[Black Sheep]

c6em

"The SNR margin may start to show interesting behaviour as well".

All I can tell you is that when I witnessed the decrease in speed on my JDSU, as you would expect, the SNR increased dramatically !! From memory It was around the 47/48dB mark.

Now then, interestinglt enough, when I rang our BB SMC Helpdesk, they could still 'see' me in synch at the nominal 11.8Meg the EU would usually enjoy. Also, he could 'see' the SNR was at 5dB. When I explained the readings I could see on my JDSU, that's when the info about 'Cool broadband' came to light.

I really don't know how routerstats would behave in this situation ??

[kitz]

It was around the 47/48dB mark.   .../snip/....

 Also, he could 'see' the SNR was at 5dB. When I explained the readings I could see on my JDSU, that's when the info about 'Cool broadband' came to light.

I really don't know how routerstats would behave in this situation ??

This could all prove interesting..  no doubt if we start to see some weird routerstats we will know the cause

[Black Sheep]

Latest update.

This is by word of mouth, I have nothing to substantiate it, but after speaking with colleagues it would seem the L2 (Power save mode) is to be switched off with regard to Business Broadband. Again, it's just heresay, but apparently there have been over 48,000 complaints nationwide around this latest technology.

More to come as I get it ..... 

[burakkucat]

Thanks, BS. The information you are able to provide is always welcomed. 

[Bald_Eagle1]

FWIW, I just found this:-

ADSL Power Management


Also this which mentions bit-swapping & VDSL2:-

Low-Power Modes for ADSL2 and ADSL2+

[snadge]

is this cool broadband only on BT MSAN's too... have LLU ISPs been rolling it out?

my output power is always at 19.1db so I dont think theres anything changin on my end

[snadge]

Ive just been informed that my neighbour who is on BT is having problems with speed..could it be related to L2 mode?

I went along 3 weeks back or so and tested his connection with my Netgear router for comparison to mine and other neighbours connected to same JB, he has now told my next door neighbour that he thinks I have broke his broadband connection because it is now slow (3 weeks later) , I can not confront him to help him deal with it as I will be dropping next door neighbour in the poo... so I have to smile and say hello and speak to him knowing he thinks ive broke his line,

I could drop this into conversation about L2 or just pop over and say "are you having any problems? because loads of people on BT ...blah blah..."

his SNR was fine and he was only getting 8Mb sync from a possible 16Mb connection, he has long extension cables running everywhere of which he attaches the home hub... but still, he has had it for years...

he has a V2 Home Hub which I know has a Broadcom 6358 chip , is it possible to enable telnet on this device and perhaps run DMT Tool on it? I can check power mode via that (im unfamilair with telnet commands in CMD)

I would just wait 130 seconds with all programs closed and the ping the router with aldslctl info --stats and check the L0/L2 state yes?

if not, could I do it with Netgear with just the connection to exchange and no IP address (not connected to BT Broadband) as I dont have and cant get his login details (and wouldnt want to as he was paranoid the last time I wanted to)

 

[Bald_Eagle1]

if not, could I do it with Netgear with just the connection to exchange and no IP address (not connected to BT Broadband) as I dont have and cant get his login details (and wouldnt want to as he was paranoid the last time I wanted to)

I think so.
It is only the modem part that is being interrogated.
That should sync regardless of IP Address or not.
It would effectively make it just the same as the HG612 VDSL2 modem without a separate router connected.

You could easily test that on your own connection by disconnecting the router, removing your own ISP login details & reconnecting the router.

[kitz]

>> apparently there have been over 48,000 complaints nationwide around this latest technology.

Thanks BS...  it will be interesting to see how this spans out.
I could be being pessimistic but some of the so called 'green' approaches arent necessarily for the better.  It seems to be trendy to be green, but some of the power savings (not just in IT/ADSL) Im sure could be better concentrated in other areas, rather than governments and corporates throwing away huge sums of money in areas which make little difference.

--

Interesting link there BE..  the previous gumph I had seen was more marketing gumph for power saving modules and the benefits.   That last link quite clearly states there are quite a few disadvantages and hence why BT is one of the ISPs listed as abandoning it for VDSL2.
The items listed in 4.3.x of that document dont make good reading

>> is this cool broadband only on BT MSAN's too... have LLU ISPs been rolling it out?

Sky have their own version they are playing with.. reportedly by ASSIA

[snadge]

@ BA - yeah well i already done that on his connection last time. got a sync etc and could pull stats...just no IP Address or Internet, which was fine.

Im a bit annoyed he wont confront me about it, for all I know he could have just meant it as a joke, something to talk about, it was when they were at pub on Saturday (him and my neighbour are best buddies of 40 years and go out drinking every friday and saturday) , now he see's him all the time and he only mentioned it other night...3 weeks or more since I was at his house doing it..  if it was my fault it would have happened straight away, another grievence brought on because of sky's doing, now im starting to fall out with neighbours lol....  I knew I should of walked away when he was concerned about his personal stuff and bank details...!!

@ KITZ - that link, isnt that just explaining about the Power Management Module they have always had in DLM...? Im sure it is, although it will be PMM that manages ASSIA's version of L2/Cool Broadband if and when they roll one out.

[kitz]

>> that link, isnt that just explaining about the Power Management Module they have always had in DLM.

Not that Im aware of - AFAIK its a separate module.

ASSIA DSL Expresse is the industry’s first DSL management platform to incorporate Dynamic Spectrum Management (DSM) Level 2, a next-generation technology for DSL network optimization.

The ASSIA DSL Expresse Power Management
module enhances this functionality by controlling
power-related parameters that are defined
in DSL standards. The Power Management
module reduces DSLAM power consumption....//snip

[snadge]

I may be wrong, but I think that module has always been part of the DLM/DSM and has been long before the cool broadband thingy came around - the PMM dynamically shapes power to get as much speed as possible on as little power as possible, where as before it was just full power the whole time while the connection is up (I think)...i may be wrong like..  but what they talk about in the paper isnt L2 low power modes like BT's cool broadband, but it WILL be that module that handles it when its integrated...perhaps...again im probably wrong, ive not known sky to be using lower power modes yet (ones like cool broadband anyway) - the £500,00 per yer per 1 million DSL users is typical savings just from DLM/DSM's power/spectrum management , in other words that what ASSIA say you will save just from using their software, I would imagine L2 modes will save MUCH much more... I just hope ASSIA's version doesnt have same problems as BT's lol...

[kitz]

I could be wrong too... but I was led to believe that the PMM (Power Management Module) is a 'bolt on' to the 'normal' DLM ..  and is practically the same as BT's propitiatory 'Cool broadband'.
 
According to this page:- DSL Expresse is the suite, but Power Management is an optional feature.  Its the PMM that is doing the 'green stuff' that coolbroadband does.  In fact from the diagram on that page, you can see the PMM isnt part of the standard DLM and sits on top of the existing DLM architecture.

Apparently its since the very beginning of this year when Sky have been playing with the ASSIA PMM that some lines have been getting much lower syncs than the line should

>> I just hope ASSIA's version doesnt have same problems as BT's lol.

Funny enough some were saying that they hope BT's doesnt run into the same problems that Sky did with the ASSIA PMM 

[snadge]

I could be wrong too... but I was led to believe that the PMM (Power Management Module) is a 'bolt on' to the 'normal' DLM ..  and is practically the same as BT's propitiatory 'Cool broadband'.
 
According to this page:- DSL Expresse is the suite, but Power Management is an optional feature.  Its the PMM that is doing the 'green stuff' that coolbroadband does.  In fact from the diagram on that page, you can see the PMM isnt part of the standard DLM and sits on top of the existing DLM architecture.

Apparently its since the very beginning of this year when Sky have been playing with the ASSIA PMM that some lines have been getting much lower syncs than the line should

>> I just hope ASSIA's version doesnt have same problems as BT's lol.

Funny enough some were saying that they hope BT's doesnt run into the same problems that Sky did with the ASSIA PMM 

hmmm... I wonder if we could get some sky users to kill all background programs and wait for 127 seconds and ping the router and see if its in L2 mode?  ive never noticed it?  my ongoing graphs show the output power as 19dBm..even through the night?

I had heard that PMM is optional too... doesnt mean sky dont/do use it, according to our shared 'info source' they do use it, but I was under the impression the PMM tries to get best speeds on as little power as possible, if DLM database knows of many active neighbouring lines then it may automatically kick back  on power a bit (reducing speed slightly) on those lines to prevent crosstalk into each other, I was under impression PMM was a way of making lines more 'neighbour friendly' and as a result also save money - and because of 'bugs' it has it can result in the lower sync rates we discussed some weeks back, I wasnt aware of and didnt think it shuts down into a 'sleep mode' when its not in use or being used very little... I would like to know if it does... I dont think it does, but im usually wrong haha

[kitz]

Im afraid I dont know enough first hand about the ASSIA PMM, but reading the technical gumph it would appear to be similar to coolbroadband.
What I cant confirm is when/if Sky started using it.

>>> but I was under the impression the PMM tries to get best speeds on as little power as possible,

Sort of... because the DSLAMs/MSANs have always had power cutback facilities..  and bitswap requires the ability to increase/decrease the power output. My own line has had power cut back applied way back to 2003 and its an integral part of dsl which is primarily there to reduce xtalk, but also and importantly.. without it for bitswapping, the line would continually lose sync at small changes in SNR.  Traditional power management needs to be there for adsl to work.

The new stuff is all about being green and reducing carbon footprints and taking power management to a new level blah blah blah.