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[BritBrat]

Is your other Sky devices connected to phone line?

Try removing the phone connection for a test, also some fit two ADSL filters to Sky boxes.

No, double-filtering is GOOD!
Provided you do it right......

Many devices, typically SKY boxes, cause fewer problems when double-filtered. 

The rules are simple:
plug the phone cable (or other suspect device) into a filter
plug that filter into a 2nd filter
plug that filter into the wall socket
The broadband cable MUST be in the filter directly plugged into the wall socket (i.e. not shared with the double-filtered phone)

HPsauce - http://community.plus.net

You do have a filter fitted to the Sky box line? Do you have multi room and are they connected to a phone line.

You may just have a faulty Sky box.

I might try a firmware upgrade.  Any way to tell when we switched to ADSL2 at all?

I would hold off introducing another possible fault problem, fix what you have first before doing any other major changes. And anyway if you have a Sky router they update them anyway witout you knowing about it unless you check versions.

[coolsnakeman]

Double filtering may work but i do not believe it to being best practice when troubleshooting. Disconnecting is always better practice. I would advise that you take out EVERYTHING apart from the broadband and connect the router into the BT test socket. Check your errors when lights are on (need to do this for at least an hour) then check your errors with lights off making sure you reboot the router to clear any excisting errors before you turn the lights off. If there is a hugh difference in error build up from the test port then your problem is related to REIN from the lights which the type of lights you are using are very common in causing REIN issues if you could confirm that for me BS please  . Another common device for causing REIN would be a sky top box but it won't be that cause your going to have that disconnected and turned off cause it could still transmit REIN when turned on even if it is connected to the line or not. You now have the choice between 2 different scenarios so you can choose whichever one is easier for you  8). I would advise that you do get your lights checked out by a spark but that is really your call to make and i wouldn't really make it until you know for sure it is def the lights and the only way that is going to be done is if you break it all down eliminating each device that is on that line.

Gary

[Excelsior]

Well I haven't had chance to do exhaustive tests, but the lower I set the lights, the less noise there is!  Seems pretty much cause and effect.  Set lights at half power and it's about 7db noise, which is just adequate for normal use.  Now, what I have noticed is that one of our dimmers isn't, well, dimming.  Although it isn't part of the main lights, it's probably on the same circuit and I'm guessing that more power going to the other lights might be causing an issue even if that dimmed light isn't on.  Ho hum.  Sparky may well be in order...

[burakkucat]

Oh bother! 

I shall try to break this to you gently but most dimmer switches / controls are pure evil with regards to the generation of RFI. As for a defective one . . . 

[Excelsior]

I know, I know.  We had to change our cordless phones at one point.  People still say they're quiet now, and it's almost certainly down to the same issue.  Unfortunately our living room is quite dark so the lights tend to be on most of the time.  What I suspect has happened is that this fault in the dimmer has developed recently which is why we're suddenly getting this issue.  Ironically we hardly ever use that light, but had been doing so to not use the main lights, which is when I realised it wasn't dimming properly.  Sigh.  We should have a new router today so I'll see if that changes anything, but I'm not hopeful, it has to be said...  Takes me right back to the days of configuring a Motorola modem's configuration file by hand, desperately trying to squeeze a few more bps out of it!

[Excelsior]

So, an update.  New modem duly arrived from Sky, a Saegem this time.  Interestingly, it's showing lower speed at the moment but it's allowing us to browse at lower margins without difficulty with the lights on full.  Noise margin bounces up massively with lights off and it seems faster generally, so I'll see what it's like when it settles.  I guess it's adapating to the noise better than the old Netgear was.  Our connection is never going to be massively fast but at least it now looks as if it'll be stable with the lights on.  Now we just wait for the lights to go pop!

Lights at half power:


Connection Speed

1091 kbps

796 kbps



Line Attenuation

56.5 dB

29.5 dB



Noise Margin

5.7 dB

9.5 dB

[coolsnakeman]

Excelsior,

Its pretty obvious where the problems are coming from you said that yourself however if you would rather leave your lights faulty and accept the speed your getting that is your choice the only problem is that eventually it won't be just the lights that would go pop your broadband will also go pop not to mention faulty electrics being dangerous and a potential fire hazard. If it was me and again this is just me i would be getting that fixed ASAP. So foget about your broadband speeds and concentrate on making your house a safer place to live 

Gary

[Excelsior]

Hello Gary,

Well, it is and it isn't.  The previous modem was quite old and it may simply have been on the way out, looking at it more over the past few days it did seem to have some odd hiccups.  So nothing may actually have changed with the lights, given that the new router is tolerating them even at full power.  We know they kick out interference, the transformers they're using are probably exactly the wrong type but even looking at them would be a job in itself.  If we had the money and time it might be worth re-doing it all, but that seems unlikely in the short term.  We'll keep an eye on it, thanks for your comments one and all.

[jeffbb]

Hi
If your router is a netgear then I would suggest running routerstats  . This application will plot most of your stats over time and displays the graphs in real time .
Its a good troubleshooting tool ,REIN will be clearly seen on the SNR margin graph .
Regards Jeff

[Excelsior]

Hello Jeff.  Ironically the new router is not a Netgear so I guess this won't work. 

Another question if I may.  I have been looking at items such as this: Shielded power cord

Now, this reckons it shields against RFI (to some extent anyway).  My question is, with the lights issue, is it likely to be RFI they're putting out or EMI?  Can EMI be the issue even though, presumably, the lights aren't on the mains circuit that the power sockets are on, and if so, would this type of adaptor help?  As is stands the modem's still OK but I think the speed has been lowered to keep the connection up.

Thinking back, once upon a time I think we had an old wireless router upstairs running off an extension.  That encountered noise too with the downstairs lights on, so maybe it is RFI?  I need to do some more reading.  I guess if we were on a better line generally this wouldn't be an issue, we're not exactly going to get brilliant speeds given where we are but I would like to make the connection a little smoother if at all possible.

I also meant to ask; does RFI impact on the phone socket circuit itself?  Is it that that would need shielding, rather than the power supply, or both?

[sevenlayermuddle]

re interference from halogen lights.... would I be correct in assuming these are the low voltage variety?   LV halogens are fed by switch-mode power supplies, operating at frequencies well within the 'vulnerable' range for DSL.   To see the evidence of this, if you have a medium wave (AM) radio, then tune it up and down as you switch the lights off & on, you will very likely hear very loud buzzing, detectable from quite along way off, at certain frequencies with the lights on.   Specifically, in my experience, LV halogen lights DO have a significant detrimental effect on DSL (search the forums, I started a thread a year or two back). 

In your case, the question seems to be why the effect is more than just detrimental, it is catastrophic.  That makes me think that either the interference is much stronger than normal, or more likely (IMHO) that your DSL wiring is simply  more vulnerable than it needs to be. 

The most common entry point for interference affecting DSL is the bell wire, as it upsets the mutual rejection characteristics of the twisted pairs.  Have you disconnected your bell wire, yet?

[Excelsior]

Oh yes, they're low voltage I think.  The bulbs look like these (although ours are less W than these) and they fit into small white connectors linked to... somewhere by a couple of wires.  It's the "somewhere" that I'm concerned about, because we've had an electrician have a look in the obvious places for the transformer which I believe these need without joy (without ripping up carpets).

Halogen bulbs

Would we be looking for one transformer or lots of transformers?  About 12 lights total.  If they're on individual transformers, would it be worth taking a couple of the bulbs out to see if that makes any difference?

I've read about the bell wire, I need to have a look at that.  From memory I think we have a LJU2 Master but again I need to check - no test socket, we've certainly never had it switched out since we've been in the house.  Where would the NTE5 typically live, assuming that there was one?  Could we ask BT to fit one, presumably at a price?

In terms of vulnerability to interference, well, the junction point to the house looks about as old as the house which is, well, old.  They recently shifted our pole lines underground, so the outside line comes up from the pavement through a small grey box enclosure and then up in parallel to the mains power line (some separation, granted) up to the guttering level, then I think along to a black junction box then back down into the house.  Even then I'm not entirely sure what route it follows because there are two extensions upstairs, neither of which we use.

Did I read correctly that if you take out all the wires in the master socket extensions stop working?  Wouldn't actually mind in our case but I don't know if our socket is that type.  It's just massively frustrating because we didn't wire this stuff up in the first place.

What does seem odd is that this problem just flipped on after a weekend.  None of the bulbs have changed, nothing.  Maybe the modem was just on the way out.  However, my wife did mention to me last night that the lights in the living toom went on / off / on a couple of times the other day then settled.  So I do wonder if it's the lights that are on the way out, which will really be fun and games...

If I manage to find any resolution to this I'll let you know.  Thanks for taking the time to help, I appreciate it.

[sevenlayermuddle]

Oh yes, they're low voltage I think.  The bulbs look like these (although ours are less W than these) and they fit into small white connectors linked to... somewhere by a couple of wires.  It's the "somewhere" that I'm concerned about, because we've had an electrician have a look in the obvious places for the transformer which I believe these need without joy (without ripping up carpets).

Halogen bulbs

Would we be looking for one transformer or lots of transformers?  About 12 lights total.  If they're on individual transformers, would it be worth taking a couple of the bulbs out to see if that makes any difference?

Many of these transformers need to be matched to the bulbs, and only work correctly if the combined wattage of the bulbs is within a specified range.  I don't know any way of finding out the exact details for your transformers, other than by finding the transformers and looking at the label on the side.  I have three transformers, each feeding two sockets, and I'm guessing you will also have several transformers, each feeding a few bulbs.

One way to find the transformers is with an AM radio;  you'll likely pick up the buzzing all through your house, but it should get a great deal louder as you get close to the transformers.  In my case, the transformers were concealed inside the ceiling void.  After finding them with the  radio , I managed to get sight of the labels  by removing one of the sockets from the ceiling, then poking a digital camera through  the hole, taking photos in random directions until I got lucky.  But if you have any doubts whatsoever, I would entrust such detective work to an electrician.  If the transformers are properly isolated then you may not get electrocuted by 12V, but the current through the wires is substantial (much greater than for a 240v bulb)  and so presents a fire risk if a fault arises.  Moreover, there would also be 240V cables snaking around to feed the transformers, so the risk of electrocution remains.

To put it in context, my 3 transformers in total rob me of about 1 or 2dB of noise margin, which translates to connecting at maybe 3.8Mbit with the lights on, or 4Mbit with them off, so it's certainly not worth ripping out ceilings to replace them.  It don't think it should really be a problem, unless the transformers are faulty or the phone lines are excessively vulnerable.

Then again, I do remember in the early days of my DSL, before sorting out my wiring in accordance with kitz's guides, I did have problems with the connection failing completely soon after dark.  I never made the association then with the halogen lights but, with hindsight, it is possible they were the reason.  You may find optimising the wiring makes all the difference in the world....

Good luck with that. 

[Excelsior]

Interesting.  Presumably the more transformers there are, feeding into the 240V circuit, the more potential for interference there is.  Clearly our problem is more acute than yours was.  The only thing that I wonder about is that I lugged a cupboard downstairs the night before we started having a problem.  I wonder if I moved something in the ceiling cavity in the process that has caused more interference to happen.  Seems daft I know.  Have you ever tried putting RF filters on the power line?  I think your idea of using a camera is good, I might be able to get my phone up into the cavity.

Would the problem occur if too little strain was being put on the transformer?  They shouldn't be overtaxed, they have less powerful bulbs now than when we first moved in.  I wonder if one of the bulbs could be faulty - could a bulb "arcing" cause RF interference?  They all look OK to the naked eye...  sigh...  I'm starting to believe in Gremlins when it comes to this house, I really am...

[coolsnakeman]

I'm starting to believe in Gremlins when it comes to this house, I really am...

Lol next you will be telling us a zombie Apocalypse is coming our way 

Gary