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Author Topic: INP - just how much can this affect speed and how does it do so?  (Read 18208 times)

snadge

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Hi

Can/does Impulse Noise Protection lower 'sync rates' in the router by as much as 20% & more , BUT , leaves the SNR Margin the same as before it done so? for eg. can INP change a line with 21db Line Attenuation @ 20,000k with 7db SNRM too  16,000k with same 7db SNRM (both syncs have no increased error counts if that helps) and does Output Power (being reduced) play a part in this?


thanks in advance
« Last Edit: April 07, 2012, 01:50:59 AM by snadge »
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Black Sheep

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Re: INP - just how much can this affect speed and how does it do so?
« Reply #1 on: April 07, 2012, 07:41:02 AM »

The very limited knowledge I have of this is, yes, your scenario can and does happen.

The INP that i'm aware of has an integer of 0,1,2 ....... against the DS and the US. It does indeed lower the SS but keeps the SNR at the same level.  I would say it's a kind of Interleaving Depth. I see this on a regular basis when utilising WHOOSH (our DSL test sytems). I believe it's applied by another system called 'Element Manager'.

I dont know how much Coolsnakeman has access to, in his role at BT, but he may have more answers.
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: INP - just how much can this affect speed and how does it do so?
« Reply #2 on: April 07, 2012, 09:00:03 AM »

There is an explanation here if it helps:-

http://www.draytek.co.uk/support/kb_vigor_inp.html
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HPsauce

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Re: INP - just how much can this affect speed and how does it do so?
« Reply #3 on: April 07, 2012, 09:42:54 AM »

Well I've run my line with various levels of INP, currently it's 1 (custom setting) which gives a good balance between reliability and performance.
My experience is a sync speed difference of less than 10% between the extremes and I've never heard anyone mention 20% before.  :no:
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snadge

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Re: INP - just how much can this affect speed and how does it do so?
« Reply #4 on: April 08, 2012, 02:23:55 PM »

thanks for the info guys

just a lot of new sky connections on their forum (including me , some of my friends and my neighbours) all got substantially lower than what the line is capable (from Line Attenuation figure) and what I/they had with previous ADSL2+ provider - it averages 20% lower but is sometimes MORE than that, ive seen:
 8Mb lines at 4Mb
 5Mb lines at 2Mb
 22Mb lines at 13Mb and 15Mb
 18Mb lines at 15Mb
 20Mb lines at 16Mb
 12Mb lines at 8Mb
...these are just a quick few that come too mind, I can go on and on as ive seen about 50-60 in last 4-5 weeks, of those 2 were about the correct speed (both were 2-3Mb lines)  all say they had the correct speeds with ex provider - Im trying to find out if Impulse Noise Protection is the cause of this...or.. dynamically reduced Output Power by the Power Management Module on DLM (which comes as part of the assia software that powers the hardware at the exchange) which is applied to save on energy costs but also to prevent Xtalk into neighbouring lines lowering 'churn' to customer support.

Someone has suggested Sky does not use the PMM and its INP thats the cause, but another person who told me about the PMM and ASSIA software works in Telehouses and such and is very knowledgable and he said his output power (few weeks back on his new sky line) was all over the shop during line training and after it - Im assuming this is PMM at work, if an ISP did not use the PMM module at all then Output Power would be static and not erratic like that would it?

also, PMM can save sky about £1,500,000 per year before tweaking (ASSIA qoute £500,000 for every 1 million DSL lines) , Iam sure SKY will have it enabled, what do you think?

DLM definitley incorperates PMM , I have papers on it proving it from stanford.edu and asssia themselves - but Iam trying to find out if INP can cause all these lines to drop in speeds like that - or is it DLM's PMM reducing Output Power (which would have same effect - lower sync rate with same 7db Noise Margin)

- if no-one is sure about what could be causing the lower speeds, then I suppose Iam just trying to find out if SKY actually use PMM then.

thanks to everyone who is trying to help
« Last Edit: April 08, 2012, 02:32:36 PM by snadge »
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kitz

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Re: INP - just how much can this affect speed and how does it do so?
« Reply #5 on: April 09, 2012, 11:31:31 AM »

From my own observations on my fathers line the sky DLM can put some pretty aggressive interleaving profiles which can have a dramatic effect on the sync speed.

Sky wont turn off interleaving although they will adjust the depth of interleaving applied which is what makes a difference to the max sync speed.

---

The SNRM is independant of Interleaving when it comes to profiles.  The higher the INP then the lower the sync will be.

As BS says, to aid understanding you could look at INP as being the depth of interleaving.  Its important to remember that although we sometimes talk about interleaving, its the Error Correction (RS encoding) which adds to the delay.  Both interleaving and error correction are normally switched on at the same time .



---

Output power doesnt seem to be part of the DLM, but actually something that is
(a) Negotiated by the router/MSAN based on conditions at sync time, but can actually increase if the line 'comes under pressure'.  From my own observations 'normal' output power at sync is normally in the 18-19dBm range.. although it can increase if the SNR drops to help out a line a bit. The output power may drop if a line is sync'd at a speed lower than it is capable of.  Resyncs dont need to occur for output power to change. 
(b)  There are different PSD masks that are applied on the MSAN which affect output power. Despite trying very hard in the past to find out more info about the PSD masks I could find little about them other than there are 4 (BTw adsl2+) different profiles which affect the power cut back applied, and are losely based upon distance from the exchange.   ie line length rather than a configurable attribute.
These PSD masks do have an effect on output power, and in turn how many bits can be loaded into each bin.   They are mentioned on various parts of the main site as 'power cut back'.  The PSD masks are there to help prevent crosstalk.

I could be wrong, but I think the PSD masks we talk about in the UK could possibly be part of the PMM that you refer to?
Sky will be using PSD masks (as will BTw and all other UK LLU ISPs) on their MSANs.  I cant remember know where the info came from as its a long time ago that I read in some techo paper that its one of the BTw guidelines when other providers install their kit in the exchange.... that they all use the same profiles on the PSD masks.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 11:36:49 AM by kitz »
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snadge

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Re: INP - just how much can this affect speed and how does it do so?
« Reply #6 on: April 09, 2012, 05:48:59 PM »

Hi KITZ (great site BTW i loooove it)

thanks for your reply,

Here is the paper from assia themselves (who license out the software that runs Dslam/Msan etc) that mention the Power Management Module and talks about Power savings from reduced output power, It talks about the PMM and says (I qoute) "The ASSIA Power Management Module takes transmit power management into its re-profiling process to help reduce power consumption and lower power costs".. because it says "takes Transmit Power "management" (and not Transmit Power itself) then that could well be a way of saying they apply certain spectral masks to lines (dependant on the line like you say) but does also sound like it could also mean reduced Transmission Power (which also results from spectral masks being applied).

this paper has a fair bit of info on DLM/DSM and spectral masks and talks about Frequency Dependant Politeness, Spectral Balancing Concepts and Band Preferences, sounds like a good read ...but I aint had time to read the whole thing :(
http://www.stanford.edu/~achowdhe/Papers/accessnets2008.pdf

I was told that SKY optimized their DLM for streaming (Anytime+ perhaps) and therefore stability.

Is Interleaving or its Depth directly related to INP..? I may be wrong but to me it sounds like they are two different things (albeit used together) , from the Draytek explanation it sounds like INP is a form of FEC (RS coding) - FEC RS and Interleaving are two types of "correction" methods that are applied to lines arent they? FEC RS good for short bursts of noise but not for longer bursts and thats where interleaving comes into play ...Am I right in saying that? and INP is just the 'depth' setting for FEC RS..? 
- INP=2 means a max sync rate of 7.5Mbps
- does this mean INP=1 equal to 15Mbps max sync rate ?
- and INP=0.5 equal to 30Mbp max sync rate ?
if so, then how does SKY get 20Mb capable lines at 16Mb by the INP alone... thats impossible because it should be under the 15Mb (INP=1) headroom and if a setting if INP=0.5 is applied then that 20Mb line should get the 20Mb sync shouldnt it? (if INP alone was the cause which is being suggested elsewhere) - same with 12Mb capable lines only getting 8.1Mb sync - it should be 7.5Mbps (INP=2) or the 12Mb its capable of on any lower setting, just guesswork here like. I see that some ISPs if they have broadcom chipsets on Dslam and Router can have DMT symbols in the codewords reduced resulting in higher sync rates on those higher INP settings..but what happens if a user uses a non-broadbcom router? - maybe DMT Symbol reduction in RS codewords is supported by most ISPs hardware and routers

I see there are a lot of parameters that come into play when deciding on sync rates, but still - the document mentions management of transmission power - but as you say that could mean spectral shaping masks. Also, has DLM become DSM or are they two seperate things?  Dynamic Spectrum Management - I now know what that means ..lol

I may be wrong but it sounds like to me (with help from you guys) it's spectral shaping that causes the lower speed (and saves power , reduces Xtalk and makes line more stable) , Line Attenuation figures typically show what speeds a customer should get on default power for the spec used on its own line (as we have been for years) without being 'fair' to neighbouring lines, maybe now DLM/DSM dynamically shapes the spectral masks to prevent Xtalk but the added benefits are less power consumption and added stability -> would this see a drop in sync rate when compared to other ADSL2+ lines that dont use this 'dynamic spectral shaping' ..?   when I was with BE/o2 I got 18Mb sync but SKY only managed 15Mb - I called SKY and asked if they could uncap it (this was what I was told to do) and they managed to get it up to 18Mb but not everyone get this result when they call sky.

thanks for all the help so far guys... I knew I would get somewhere asking on here... and iam just speculating all of the above..

offtopic: as we are talking about spectral masks, I was told that ReADSL2 is not used because spectral shaping is not supported, but if ISPs do support spectral shaping on DLM/DSM then why cant ReADSL2 be used? ...another topic for another time
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 06:24:11 PM by snadge »
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c6em

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Re: INP - just how much can this affect speed and how does it do so?
« Reply #7 on: April 09, 2012, 07:24:41 PM »

I'd imagine that Reach extended ADSL2 would not be favoured as I gather it works by "upping the power levels" at the bottom end of the downstream spectrum. 
So the effect would probably be to wreck everyone else's broadband connection by increasing the cross talk in the cable significantly.

BT are trialing out experiments with the lower power modes on ADSL2+ currently so that if the dslam notices that no data is being used by the end customer then it goes into low power mode.  I'd have thought that the rapid ramp up of the power levels from 'sleep' to full power when the customer starts using the internet again will also cause cross talk effects on other lines, unless the customer will have to wait a few seconds while the system wakes up at a slower rate - which frankly seems fair enough to me.
« Last Edit: April 09, 2012, 07:28:15 PM by c6em »
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snadge

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Re: INP - just how much can this affect speed and how does it do so?
« Reply #8 on: April 09, 2012, 10:43:19 PM »

I'd imagine that Reach extended ADSL2 would not be favoured as I gather it works by "upping the power levels" at the bottom end of the downstream spectrum. 
So the effect would probably be to wreck everyone else's broadband connection by increasing the cross talk in the cable significantly.

BT are trialing out experiments with the lower power modes on ADSL2+ currently so that if the dslam notices that no data is being used by the end customer then it goes into low power mode.  I'd have thought that the rapid ramp up of the power levels from 'sleep' to full power when the customer starts using the internet again will also cause cross talk effects on other lines, unless the customer will have to wait a few seconds while the system wakes up at a slower rate - which frankly seems fair enough to me.

READSL2 can be used (so ive heard/read) if spectral shaping is applied to avoid the exact thing you talk about (Xtalk) , and was told that because ISPs dont facilitate spectral shaping for it then nobody uses it and its not supposed to be very effective (yet charts exist which show it getting the further reach and faster speeds for those with attenuation above 55db, used in other countrys)

I read about BT Cool Broadband - it sounds like a great idea..providing it all works just like it should - I certainly dont mind waiting a few seconds for it to warm up.
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kitz

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Re: INP - just how much can this affect speed and how does it do so?
« Reply #9 on: April 09, 2012, 11:05:30 PM »

Thanks for that linky on ASSIA, Ive had a quick read through, but tbh Im not much the wiser, a lot of it seems to be green marketing..  but Ive no doubt it does have its uses... see below for futher comments.

I dont know enough about the subject..  but having read that, it does not appear to have anything to do with the usual PSD masks applied to the MSAN.  PSD masks are entirely separate from any DLM profile.  The PSD masks are kinda 'set in stone' depending upon the type of adsl you have and line length. 

Quote
a lot of new sky connections on their forum (including me , some of my friends and my neighbours) all got substantially lower than what the line is capable (from Line Attenuation figure) and what I/they had with previous ADSL2+ provider -

I strongly suspect this is more down to Skys DLM and the depth of interleaving applied..  hence me calling it aggresive - particularly on new lines.  The depth of interleaving sometimes seems to be high to start off with...  far higher than some lines need.  This is what keeps the sync speed low.  Sky will lower it if you request it from them.. other than that it 'may' be higher than lines may actually need keeping the speed down.


>>> Output Power would be static

No... output power can and does change on the fly depending upon the current line conditions.. as mentioned earlier it can increase or decrease depending on whats happening at the current time.  For example if you sync at a bad time and your sync speed is low..  but later on conditions improve, then the power output can decrease.
As mentioned earlier normal sync time power would expected to be in the 18-19dBm region..  but the MSAN can also ramp up the power to 20dBm if it senses it may be struggling. 

At this point it does seem perhaps like this could be something that the ASSIA unit does.. or would do. However this is something that the MSAN has been able to do since rate adaptive dsl came into force many years ago. Even pre-maxdsl power cut back was in force and could be clearly seen on shorter lines... however on fixed rate lines it did appear to be more static... but that could be that not as many people checked their line stats often when on say 2Mb fixed rate.

This also begs the question do the BTw MSANs* already have something in them that does similar to what ASSIA claims to do..  cutting back on the power not only reduces crosstalk but it will also have the slight added benefit of reduced power consumption.  Because the ASSIA module seems to claim to do what the BTw* MSAN already does to a certain extent anyhow.

*I refer to the BTw MSANs and although I cant be sure, I would assume that LLU ISPs MSANs do similar - Be*'s certainly does.


>> Is Interleaving or its Depth directly related to INP.

Depth.  It the depth that relates to how much redundant data is in the RS codeword, ...that is then interleaved in the block.  The more redundant data there is, the slower the 'real time' speed due to the overheads.


>> FEC RS and Interleaving are two types of "correction" methods that are applied to lines arent they?

They are separate entities, but work in tandem. 
Think of RS encoding as putting in redundant data in case some of it gets lost due to noise.   
Interleaving on its own isnt strictly error correction.. its simply a method of chopping up data and mixing it with other blocks of data...
.....so that if any part of the bit stream gets lost, theres enough information held within another data block(s) for meaningful data to be recovered from the redundant RS data. It needs some sort of redundant data to be effective.. and thats where the RS encoding comes into play. 

>> .but I aint had time to read the whole thing

Sorry - not had time to read any of it lol..  I really am outa time too now and I still have a few things to do before I head to my bed.
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snadge

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Re: INP - just how much can this affect speed and how does it do so?
« Reply #10 on: April 10, 2012, 02:06:03 AM »

thanks for the lengthy reply Kitz, i know that your a busy man so i appreciate it. I may read some of that paper tonight, understanding it all may be an issue lol.

yeah I understand now the FEC RS (INP) + Interleaving relationship, a sort of "double correction" (if you will).

the person who told me all about the DLM's PMM and ASSIA software was a user on Sky Forums, he says he works "further down the line" (so to speak) from exchange, I assume thats in Telehouses etc - he said his ouput power was all over the shop during line training (im sure he said after it too), during training it never went above 10dBm and seemed to be erratic and true to form DLM sync'd his 17-18Mb line (he had 17Mb with BE* previously) at a mere 13Mb and he called SKY and got it put right

 - - he says SKY's DLM is flawed because the Power Management Module is enabled during traning when it should be enabled after?? - when your told things by other people its always best getting them checked out too make sure its correct so iam not dishing out incorrect advice to others - he certainly seems to know his stuff and impressed me somewhat, infact when I asked the question "why does SKY's DLM fall short of the mark" on Sky Forums it was him that said "probably the PMM" - he mentioned that output energy consumption halved for every 3db decrease (well, that it doubles on previous amount for every 3db increase) in output signal so would save sky fortunes if they reduced output power as much as possible, a small decrease in output signal and speed has massive decrease in energy consumption

Output Power (in Decibels) / Energy Consumption
0dBm = 1mW (one thousandth of a watt)
3dBm = 2mW
6dBm = 4mW
9dBm = 8mW
10dBm = 10mW
12dBm = 16mW
15dBm = 32mW
18dBm = 64mW
26dBm = 400mW
you can see the trend here....

I understand your saying the Spectral Masks are something thats always been there as its part of the spec as ive just been reading elsewhere, I do know that ASSIA now have DSM (Dynamic Spectrum Management) - I wonder if this replaces DLM or is something else that runs alongside it, sounds like its part of DLM - judging from that title it would sound like their software can determine if the line (and neighbouring lines) would benefit from further spectral shaping - which would further reduce Xtalk, save energy, increase stability and reduce customer churn, with the spectral shaping specific to a customers line?

see this other paper by ASSIA which talks about their DSL Expresse software and Dynamic Spectrum Management reducing energy consumption via the Power Management Module

do BT use ASSIA software on their equipment? I wonder which other ISPs use ASSIA - Ive read they control just over 10% of the worlds DSL lines
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Black Sheep

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Re: INP - just how much can this affect speed and how does it do so?
« Reply #11 on: April 10, 2012, 08:59:38 AM »

Snadge .......... "thanks for the lengthy reply Kitz, i know that your a busy man so i appreciate it".

Just a heads up my mate, Kitz is a layyyydeeeeeee.  :lol: :lol:
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kitz

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Re: INP - just how much can this affect speed and how does it do so?
« Reply #12 on: April 10, 2012, 12:49:18 PM »

Hmmmmmmmmm...   totally unrelated to this thread, as theres absolutely no way he could have been aware of it... as the info was sent independently and actually prior to my response yesterday.

Ive been advised by someone....  and I know damn well he knows his stuff...  but he has told me that the Sky DLM appears to be broken.  I will quote part of the info sent to me which Im sure he wont mind as he was a great source of inspiration to me on adsl going back... oooooh must be 8-9yrs. 

Quote
Basically the artificial cap is causing problems when the line switches from ADSL2 to ADSL2+ mode because the subsequent low bit loading causes the power mask to drop to 10dBm rather than 18dBm. That in turn makes DLM think the line can't go much faster and it gets stuck.

Sound familiar to what you are saying?   and does it fit? 
Apparently this seems to affect shorter lines and the DLM seems to stick at around 13Mbps down/ 950kbps up. 

I'll leave you with this...   but it does put me in mind of how about 5/6 yrs ago that the BTw maxdsl DLM used to stick at 2Mbps and cause constant problems for some people on short lines.

atm the only resolution seems to be persuading someone at Sky to manually reconfigure the line.  ???



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kitz

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Re: INP - just how much can this affect speed and how does it do so?
« Reply #13 on: April 10, 2012, 01:14:38 PM »

Hi snadge,  I made the above post before reading your reply last night.

>> the person who told me all about the DLM's PMM and ASSIA software was a user on Sky Forums, he says he works "further down the line" 

Reading between the lines (pardon the pun), I think theres a strong possibility that the person you mentioned is also possibly one and the same.   If so.. then yes he knows his stuff.

>> do BT use ASSIA software on their equipment? I wonder which other ISPs use ASSIA.

This is the big question..  and one I started to raise in one of my earlier posts..  the problem is soooooooo very much information isnt made available...  and much information that does become public is often the result of much hard work, investigation, research and then getting it out there.   Occasional snippets come from *reliable* sources..  then someone has to piece it all together.   

Funny enough I mentioned in the above post *going back about 8-9 years*..  and this is exactly how our paths crossed in the first place. I think you'll find we both have a lot of respect for each other..  and therefore if he suspects something then yes you can be sure there will be an eliment of truth in it.

Any of the info is never handed to us on a plate, because no-one knows it all...  and someone that knows one side of things wont know the other...  its piecing together what we find out.   
TBH thats why sites such as this work where you have the BToR guys putting in their side..  you have the ISP reps putting in their bit..  you have people who put time into doing the research (an area which I sadly lapsed in over the past year due to personal reasons) and the many, many people who just want to find out more and put in time to help out others. 

As regards to BT and ASSIA...

I think the answer can be found here
http://www.btplc.com/Innovation/Innovation/Coolbroadband/index.htm
« Last Edit: April 10, 2012, 03:30:45 PM by kitz »
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snadge

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Re: INP - just how much can this affect speed and how does it do so?
« Reply #14 on: April 11, 2012, 01:16:20 AM »

@ BLACK SHEEP (& KITZ)- aggghhh!!!  :-[ sorry I didnt know Kitz was a lady... oops  :-[ , sorry hehe

@ KITZ - what you mention does sound familiar...  so during the 'climb' of profiles (during line training) and shifting out of ADSL2 and into ADSL2+ is when it happens?! (I have seen a 10db and 12db Line end up at 13Mb on SKY too, both of these should be 22Mb.) - thing is if 10dBm ouput power limits you to a 13Mb sync (if iam right in saying that - just speculating) what about 20Mb lines that end up at 16Mb..? or 18Mb lines that end up at 15Mb..etc (which I have seen) - could this 15Mb/16Mb syncs be achieved on 10dBm Output Power? - and perhaps longer lines that get hit are due to aggressive Interleaving Depth as you say? ..gotta throw some ideas out there...lol...but it does seem to happen to a lot of SKY lines, like I say there was me, 4 of my friends, my neighbours and all but 2 of new sky connections ive seen on their forums in last 5-6 weeks that all got quite low sync rates when compared to what they had before or should get for the line attenuation (mind ive not seen every connection on there, I am compiling a spreadsheet though)

I love this statement:
Quote
Any of the info is never handed to us on a plate, because no-one knows it all...  and someone that knows one side of things wont know the other...  its piecing together what we find out.   
TBH thats why sites such as this work where you have the BToR guys putting in their side..  you have the ISP reps putting in their bit..  you have people who put time into doing the research (an area which I sadly lapsed in over the past year due to personal reasons) and the many, many people who just want to find out more and put in time to help out others.


thanks for the link, I have sent you a PM about our mystery 'source'..lol

edit: just remembered - i queried sky reps about DLM/PMM/ASSIA and the whole theory - they said they couldnt tell me anything but one rep said "we use the same DLM as BT"....!!! whether or not that is true...
« Last Edit: April 11, 2012, 01:23:19 AM by snadge »
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