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Author Topic: Help interpreting Hlog graphs  (Read 32458 times)

Bald_Eagle1

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Re: Help interpreting Hlog graphs
« Reply #30 on: April 12, 2012, 05:46:33 PM »

Separate graphs for the montage in the previous message are attached
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les-70

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Re: Help interpreting Hlog graphs
« Reply #31 on: April 12, 2012, 06:46:08 PM »

I also suspect that you have a bridged tap somewhere of about 30m length (the dip around tone 350), the impact looks very small .

That attenuation 'feature' is probably due to frequency-dependent reflection losses from an impedance mismatch.

At a guess, the cause is a poor splice, perhaps a change in cable parameters, rather than a bridge tap.

cheers, a

  You may well be correct on this.  I gather it depends the detail of the effective inductance and capacitance that can occur at mismatch.  I have yet find an example of this in an Hlog plot in any text, the predominance of bridged tap examples was leading me that way.  An engineer and or a TDR seems the way to tell.
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: Help interpreting Hlog graphs
« Reply #32 on: June 10, 2012, 09:33:06 PM »

@les-70,

I believe you have an Annexe M connection (increased US tones).

I have been messing about with the ADSL graphing scripts to use different colours for US & DS.

I currently determine which tones to use based on the "Mode" as reported via "adslctl info --stats"

e.g.
Mode:                   ADSL2+
Mode:                   G.DMT

Could you confirm exactly what is reported for Mode: for your Annexe M connection as I need to allow for it in the script, otherwise it will incorrectly plot like the attachment.

Cheers,

Paul.
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les-70

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Re: Help interpreting Hlog graphs
« Reply #33 on: June 11, 2012, 07:15:52 AM »

  No problem, I have got used to the wrong presentation in display programmes but it would be nice to see it done correctly.    I would also happy to test anything.
 
     Good luck
   
   # adslctl info --stats
adslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
Status: ShowtimeRetrain Reason: 0
Channel: FAST, Upstream rate = 1747 Kbps, Downstream rate = 17555 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode:                   ADSL2+ AnnexM EU-56
Channel:                Fast
Trellis:                U:ON /D:ON
Line Status:            No Defect
Training Status:        Showtime
                Down            Up
SNR (dB):       4.8             6.5
Attn(dB):       25.5            8.4
Pwr(dBm):       6.5             13.3
Max(Kbps):      20476           1780
Rate (Kbps):    17555           1747
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: Help interpreting Hlog graphs
« Reply #34 on: June 11, 2012, 09:42:51 AM »

Does this look more like it should?

« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 09:50:46 AM by Bald_Eagle1 »
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les-70

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Re: Help interpreting Hlog graphs
« Reply #35 on: June 11, 2012, 11:46:02 AM »

 It certainly does.  It will stop people being puzzled when annex m graphs are posted.

   
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Bald_Eagle1

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Re: Help interpreting Hlog graphs
« Reply #36 on: June 11, 2012, 12:08:57 PM »

I have emailed the updated ADSLGRAPH.BAT script to snadge for him to add to the download packages via his link(s).

In the meantime, I have attached a version here for you to try.

It would be good to see a full portrait montage of your current stats posted as an attachment (as a comparison with April's partial data).

 
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les-70

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Re: Help interpreting Hlog graphs
« Reply #37 on: June 11, 2012, 12:58:33 PM »

Thanks for that, it worked just fine.  One the montages is attached.  Not a good day for my line as it seems to be more noisy than usual.
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asbokid

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Re: Help interpreting Hlog graphs
« Reply #38 on: June 11, 2012, 01:07:23 PM »

Thanks for that, it worked just fine.  One the montages is attached.  Not a good day for my line as it seems to be more noisy than usual.

Which modem is this? 

It looks as if there's something wrong with its Reed Solomon counters. They all record zero (0) errors.  Not realistic from five hours uptime and such a low SNR.

cheers, a
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c6em

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Re: Help interpreting Hlog graphs
« Reply #39 on: June 11, 2012, 01:10:50 PM »


D the interleaver depth is set to 1 both up and down on his line - that's fast path
so there is no error correction routines on the line so no FEC's
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asbokid

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Re: Help interpreting Hlog graphs
« Reply #40 on: June 11, 2012, 01:51:13 PM »


D the interleaver depth is set to 1 both up and down on his line - that's fast path
so there is no error correction routines on the line so no FEC's

EDIT: 

You're right - les70 does seem to have FEC disabled - you set me thinking about this though..

So far as I know, Forward Error Correction is independent of the interleaving depth. Reed-Solomon-FEC of the frame payload can still be used with Fast Path. Interleaving simply spreads the codewords across several frames to relieve the load on the RS decoder. But those interleaved codewords need not actually have any redundancy bytes added for forward error correction.

So just as Fast Path can use FEC, there can also be an interleaved latency path with no FEC.  The Forward Error Correction function and the latency path are configured independently. [1] [2]

It seems that some modems maintain separate FEC counters for Fast Path and for interleaved latency paths, e.g see this DSL modem from US Robotics which has counters specifically for Fast Path FEC Correction. [3]

Back in December, Kitz contributor JustAnother, went to a lot of trouble identifying all of the cryptic field names reported by the xdslcmd tool. [4]  JustAnother found a Comtrend manual hosted by Andrews & Arnold which lists the following: [5]



Looking back at les70's stats, his modem lists the interleaving depth as 0 (zero) and the number of RS Codeword check bytes as 0 (zero). So unless that is wrong, it does look like RS-FEC is disabled altogether.

By contrast, this from my modem:



According to [2], in my case, the RS decoder takes M data frames, each of B octets (bytes). M*B is the size of the FEC data frame = (2*123) = 246 octets. That becomes the size of the Reed-Solomon codeword.  The number of redundant check bytes in the RS codeword is given by R, which in this case is 6.  So this FEC configuration (n,k) = RS(246,240).  Since RS can correct (n-k)/2 symbols in error per codeword, if a symbol is taken to be a octet, this means that up to 3 octets per 246 octet codeword can be corrected by the RS decoder.  However, thanks to the spreading from that huge interleaving depth D=64, the decoder could still correct a codeword where many more than 3 octets are in error.
 
Does that sound about right?!

cheers, a

[1] https://eeweb01.ee.kth.se/upload/publications/reports/2008/XR-EE-KT_2008_003.pdf  (see 1.4.2)
[2] http://huaweihg612hacking.files.wordpress.com/2012/06/80107515-g992-3-minusannexc-2009-04-final.pdf (see 7.7.1.4)
[3] http://www.usr.com/support/9111/9111-ug/adsl-2.htm
[4] http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,10289.0.html
[5] http://wiki.aaisp.org.uk/images/d/dd/UM_AR-5382u_A1.0.pdf
« Last Edit: June 11, 2012, 05:09:00 PM by asbokid »
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c6em

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Re: Help interpreting Hlog graphs
« Reply #41 on: June 11, 2012, 07:24:57 PM »


I'm afraid your beyond my technical competance/level of understanding with this.
I've never really bottomed out the interleaving depth and the why's etc is it set at a particular level.

As you say there seems no reason why interleaving and FEC's need to go hand it hand. I just imagined that BT/DSLAM designers had decided that they did as a matter of design policy.  I do recall hearing that when ADSL was first being designed that interleaved was the sole option.... it was only later that the concept of fast path was added into the specification.
(Given the number of gamers going hypobolic on ISP forums about demanding interleaving be set off  - only for the DLM to promptly re-apply it; I'll bet they wished they never thought of fast path.)

I've always run at D=64 downsteam both on ADSLmax and now ADSL2+ (sync 13000, target 3.0 dB, attn 36)
Once I recall when I had increased target margins due to a fault (when on ADSLmax) and was on a much reduced sync, D was set lower at 32.

Curiously my other figures are different to yours though we have the same interleaving depth
My M= 1
B= 190
R=14

I suspect the reality is that its so complex that understanding it is beyond the capability of those without a background in the field of data communication and telemetry.
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asbokid

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Re: Help interpreting Hlog graphs
« Reply #42 on: June 11, 2012, 08:09:09 PM »

As you say there seems no reason why interleaving and FEC's need to go hand it hand. I just imagined that BT/DSLAM designers had decided that they did as a matter of design policy.  I do recall hearing that when ADSL was first being designed that interleaved was the sole option.... it was only later that the concept of fast path was added into the specification.

(Given the number of gamers going hypobolic on ISP forums about demanding interleaving be set off  - only for the DLM to promptly re-apply it; I'll bet they wished they never thought of fast path.)

I've always run at D=64 downsteam both on ADSLmax and now ADSL2+ (sync 13000, target 3.0 dB, attn 36)
Once I recall when I had increased target margins due to a fault (when on ADSLmax) and was on a much reduced sync, D was set lower at 32.

Curiously my other figures are different to yours though we have the same interleaving depth
My M= 1
B= 190
R=14

If that maths is correct then your RS decoder configuration has a codeword length of M*B = 190 octets, and with redundancy octets R=14,  the FEC configuration is RS(190,176), providing 7 octets of error correction per 190-octet codeword, but at an overhead cost of 14 octets (or 7%) per codeword.   Quite a heavy overhead. But that's ignoring the error correction gains (and latency overheads) from the interleaving.
 
Quote
I suspect the reality is that its so complex that understanding it is beyond the capability of those without a background in the field of data communication and telemetry.

Sure. It doesn't help that corporations like Broadcom are so secretive. And as Snadge has noticed, they're getting worse, refusing to even document their new processors. Great shame given that Broadcom relies 100% on the open source licensing of MIPS Linux for all its CPE and DSLAM platforms.  It's only thanks to the likes of Comtrend that we know what the single letter fields (M, B R, etc.) reported by Broadcom's xdslcmd tool actually mean in practice.

cheers, a
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 02:16:00 AM by asbokid »
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les-70

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Re: Help interpreting Hlog graphs
« Reply #43 on: June 11, 2012, 08:26:17 PM »

Interesting but I can't add anything useful.  The router is a DG834v4 with DGteam and the DSLAM is talktalk/ex tiscali  LLU.  The error rate in the mornings sample is about typical for the SNR.  The connection only resyncs if the SNR goes below about 0.5 but with a 4.0db sync it rarely goes below 2.0. I had interleaving on for a period in the past.  Errors were then all corrected but pings were longer, fast path seems a bit more responsive.
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asbokid

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Enabling Annex M in Broadcom chipset devices
« Reply #44 on: June 19, 2012, 02:12:46 AM »


(By the way without annex m an HG612 did really well on my line but it does not seem to support Annex m...)



The HG612 should support Annex M, after all it's only a question of different bin allocations. Maybe Annex M needs enabling first through the kernel driver using some parameter of xdslcmd.

Hi.. I just got round to looking at this..

Enabling Annex M on the Huawei HG612 is painless enough..

Presumably it is a similar procedure for other Broadcom chipset devices.

Shown below, Annex M is disabled by default:

Code: [Select]
# xdslcmd profile --show

Modulations:
G.Dmt Enabled
G.lite Enabled
T1.413 Enabled
ADSL2 Enabled
AnnexL Enabled
ADSL2+ Enabled
AnnexM Disabled
VDSL2 Enabled

The field of interest below is adsl2Param.  In the HG612 the field is set to 0x0 by default:

Code: [Select]
# xdslcmd info --cfg   
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
...
adslTrainingMarginQ4: -1
adslShowtimeMarginQ4: -1
adslLOMTimeThldSec: -1
adslDemodCapMask: 0010447a
adslDemodCapValue: 0010447a
adsl2Param: 00000000
adslPwmSyncClockFreq: 0
adslHsModeSwitchTime: 0
adslDemodCap2Mask: 00540200
adslDemodCap2Value: 00540200
vdslParam: 007f00ff
vdslParam1: 00000000
xdslAuxFeaturesMask: 00000003
xdslAuxFeaturesValue: 00000003
vdslCfgFlagsMask: 00000004
vdslCfgFlagsValue: 00000004

We can check the DSL standards supported by the modem as follows:

Code: [Select]
# xdslcmd --help
Usage: xdslcmd start ... [--mod <a|d|l|t|2|p|e|m|v>] ...
...

Where:
  • a = All default DSL standards enabled
  • d = ADSL / G.DMT (G.992.1)
  • l = ADSL Lite / G.Lite (G.992.2 )
  • t = T1.413 (ANSI standard for N.America)
  • 2 = ADSL2 (G.992.3)
  • p = ADSL2plus (G.992.5)
  • e = ADSL2 L (G.992.3 Annex L) -- Reach Extended
  • m = ADSL2plus M (G992.5 Annex M)
  • v = VDSL2 (G.993.2)
(Some DSL standards are mutually exclusive)

The xdslcmd start --mod subcommand is used to enable Annex M or any of the other standards listed above.

The following command will enable g.dmt, adsl lite, t1.413, adsl2, adsl2plus, annex m, vdsl2:

Code: [Select]
# xdslcmd start --mod dlt2pmv
xdslCtl_GetVersion success

We can check that the command has been invoked correctly:

Code: [Select]
# xdslcmd profile --show
xdslcmd: ADSL driver and PHY status
...
Modulations:
G.Dmt Enabled
G.lite Enabled
T1.413 Enabled
ADSL2 Enabled
AnnexL Disabled
ADSL2+ Enabled
AnnexM Enabled
VDSL2 Enabled

Annex M is now listed as Enabled.

We can also verify the new bitmask of the adsl2Param field. Show below, it has changed to 2. This confirms that AnnexM is now an activated configuration option.

Code: [Select]
# xdslcmd info --cfg

adslTrainingMarginQ4: -1
adslShowtimeMarginQ4: -1
adslLOMTimeThldSec: -1
adslDemodCapMask: 0010447a
adslDemodCapValue: 0010447a
adsl2Param: 00000002
adslPwmSyncClockFreq: 0
adslHsModeSwitchTime: 0
adslDemodCap2Mask: 00540200
adslDemodCap2Value: 00540200
vdslParam: 007f00ff
vdslParam1: 00000000
xdslAuxFeaturesMask: 00000003
xdslAuxFeaturesValue: 00000003
vdslCfgFlagsMask: 00000004
vdslCfgFlagsValue: 00000004

cheers, a
« Last Edit: June 19, 2012, 07:06:48 AM by asbokid »
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