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Author Topic: How does DLM work with ADSL2+?  (Read 7390 times)

roseway

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How does DLM work with ADSL2+?
« on: February 25, 2012, 08:16:14 AM »

I've recently been upgraded to ADSL2+, following an exchange upgrade to WBC in January. I've gained a significant increase in both downstream and upstream speeds so I'm happy overall, but DLM seems to be behaving oddly, so I wondered if anyone knows how it's supposed to work and what configuration options are available to the ISP.

The two bits of oddness are that DLM switches my connection to fastpath (increasing the error rate considerably), and has recently lowered my target noise margin to 3 dB (unrealistically low for my rather interference-prone rural line with 44 dB attenuation). It switched me to fastpath four days after the upgrade took place, so when the training period was over I asked my ISP (Zen) to switch my connection permanently to interleaved, which they did promptly. A few days later, DLM switched me back to fastpath and lowered the target noise margin to 3 dB.

I know I can go back to Zen and get it changed again, but I don't want to get into an endless cycle of fighting against what DLM wants to do, so I'm trying first to determine what the rules are.
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  Eric

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Re: How does DLM work with ADSL2+?
« Reply #1 on: February 25, 2012, 12:07:20 PM »

This is the bane of BB Engineers lives.

Whever a reset is done, DLM reverts back to 'Auto mode' which should start you on FP on the US and DS, then move you to Interleaved if there are too many Errored Seconds (CRC's).

It doesn't bloody work !!!!!!!!!

Your ISP need to not only move you to 'Always run in interleaved mode', they need to keep you there. The issue I find when talking to the various ISP Tech people ( ::)), is that if you mention 'Interleaving', they assume you are talking about SNR Interleaving. This is something completely different.

The common terms different ISP's use are  ............... 'Run mode', 'Connection Mode', 'Interleaving depth', 'Delay', 'Latency'. They all ammount to the same thing though. Perhaps if you ask if your ISP can increase your Interleaving Depth to lets say '2' on both US and DS, if they implement this then your circuit will always run in Interleaved Mode.

Complicate and hard to put into words, but I'm sure you get the picture Eric ??  ;)
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roseway

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Re: How does DLM work with ADSL2+?
« Reply #2 on: February 25, 2012, 12:58:29 PM »

Thanks, yes, I get the picture. I can't say that I've ever heard of SNR interleaving, but I'm quite sure that Zen understand very well what interleaving means in this context. I'm not sure why specifying a particular interleaving depth would make it stick, but I'll discuss that with them when I give them a call. :)
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  Eric

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Re: How does DLM work with ADSL2+?
« Reply #3 on: February 25, 2012, 03:29:02 PM »

Thanks, yes, I get the picture. I can't say that I've ever heard of SNR interleaving, but I'm quite sure that Zen understand very well what interleaving means in this context. I'm not sure why specifying a particular interleaving depth would make it stick, but I'll discuss that with them when I give them a call. :)

I can only speak from experience of dealing with BTw, as the other LLU's just tend to say, "Leave it with us".

If the EU is unwittingly on Fast Path (for a variety of reasons out of the EU's control), then as mooted, this will cause extreme CRC's in a lot of cases. My job then is to ring BTw who actively access DLM's 'Element Manager' and manually apply 'Interleaving Depth' ...... be that 1,2,4,8,16,32 etc etc. By manually applying this, it halts the circuit reverting back to 'Auto-mode'.

 
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roseway

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Re: How does DLM work with ADSL2+?
« Reply #4 on: February 25, 2012, 03:35:44 PM »

Thanks again, that's useful information.
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  Eric

kitz

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Re: How does DLM work with ADSL2+?
« Reply #5 on: February 26, 2012, 03:58:53 PM »

>>> It doesn't bloody work !!!!!!!!!

If this is true and from Erics case (and several others in the past) then it doesnt always appear to work as it should.
Asking the ISP to permanently set the depth of interleaving makes sense and should hopefully resolve the issue.

I could be wrong, but I think the minimum figures that can be set are 2 for the upstream and 4 for the downstream. (or at least they used to be).
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roseway

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Re: How does DLM work with ADSL2+?
« Reply #6 on: February 26, 2012, 04:15:34 PM »

Thanks, I'll contact Zen tomorrow. As it happens, the connection is surprisingly stable at the moment (despite the noise margin dropping below 1 dB at night) but the CRCs are clocking up at a higher rate than I'm comfortable with, so I'll be much happier with it interleaved.
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  Eric

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Re: How does DLM work with ADSL2+?
« Reply #7 on: February 26, 2012, 04:24:10 PM »

>>> It doesn't bloody work !!!!!!!!!

If this is true and from Erics case (and several others in the past) then it doesnt always appear to work as it should.
Asking the ISP to permanently set the depth of interleaving makes sense and should hopefully resolve the issue.

I could be wrong, but I think the minimum figures that can be set are 2 for the upstream and 4 for the downstream. (or at least they used to be).

Unfortunately Kitz, it is true. ???

There is urban myth amongst engineers and our colleagues at BTw, that a group have been set up to try and give the EU the quickest speeds possible. We believe it to be in India. Truth or otherwise, I and many other engineers find ourselves attending lots of BB faults that have been ticking along just fine for years, and have suddenly started mis-behaving.

On-site diagnostics usually finds that there is nothing wrong with the EU's MPF (Metallic Path Facility), or anything else for that matter. It is generally down to parameter changes being implemented. A simple 'SNR reset' automatically puts the DS and US back to 'Fast Path' and as I've said, the theory is that DLM will change this to 'Interleaved Path' as stabilisation occurs. I can only speak as I find, but 70% of the time, the DS will have reverted to 'Interleaved Path', but the US will remain on 'Fast Path'. On a long'ish line I can see the US errors incrementing at a rapid rate, thus forceing a profile change or a retrain.

The other really annoying thing 'The fabled group' employ, is inputting a 'Banded Profile' via 'Element Manager' on DLM. Prior to receiving WHOOSH access (see Tech Chat thread for more info on this), without contacting BTw we would have no idea that a BP had been implemented !! So in the early days of this ridiculous idea, we would have the EU raising a fault reporting, 'No synch'. Along we go and yes, there would be no synch with our HHT's at the EU's. A subsequent PQT would show a healthy MPF, so off to the Exchange you'd go. Once there the HHT would synchronise, so off to the PCP you'd go. It would indeed synchronise at this point. Hmmm, I would then test the D-side once again for faults and find none, so off to the top of the DP you'd go. Here there would be no synch, so you're left faulting the UG network. The very first time this happened, myself and a colleague had synch in one JUF4, and just 30mtrs away, no synch in that particular JUF4 !! We even swapped pairs between the 2 boxes, but to no avail.

The BP had been set to (cant remember exactly) lets say, 4-8Meg. Therefore the circuit would only work within those parameters. We had  roughly 4Meg in the first JUF4, but the added attenuation meant it wasn't achievable 30mtrs down the road. A full day spent on that and all it needed was the BP removing and putting back to 160Kbps-24Meg. This is what ALL FS Profiles should be set to in my opinion.

Sorry for harping on, but it makes my blood boil when folk start messing around with a perfect working circuit Just for further clarification, everything discussed above only takes place on 21CN circuits, not 'Fixed' or 20CN.
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Black Sheep

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Re: How does DLM work with ADSL2+?
« Reply #8 on: February 26, 2012, 04:29:01 PM »

>>> It doesn't bloody work !!!!!!!!!

If this is true and from Erics case (and several others in the past) then it doesnt always appear to work as it should.
Asking the ISP to permanently set the depth of interleaving makes sense and should hopefully resolve the issue.

I could be wrong, but I think the minimum figures that can be set are 2 for the upstream and 4 for the downstream. (or at least they used to be).

Whoops, missed a bit. Assuming we're talking about the same thing here Kitz, I've had US and DS both set at just '2', therefore having the 'Interleaved' stability enabled, but with minimum latency changes. I think Eric would probably benefit from this. Just my opinion mind. ;D
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roseway

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Re: How does DLM work with ADSL2+?
« Reply #9 on: February 26, 2012, 04:39:20 PM »

Latency isn't any problem from here. I'm not a games player, and in any case the latency is quite low. When I was on an interleaved ADSL Max connection, the latency was only about 35 ms.

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  Eric

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Re: How does DLM work with ADSL2+?
« Reply #10 on: February 26, 2012, 04:44:01 PM »

Latency isn't any problem from here. I'm not a games player, and in any case the latency is quite low. When I was on an interleaved ADSL Max connection, the latency was only about 35 ms.



Thats a good line you've got there. Just 1mS of jitter !!! With a ping of just 22mS you can well afford to have deeper Inter Depth applied without noticing any difference. Obviously stability is key to a good BB line, so maybe have your US and DS set to '4' or even '8' ??? It's good to be in a position of choice.
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roseway

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Re: How does DLM work with ADSL2+?
« Reply #11 on: February 26, 2012, 06:38:17 PM »


Thats a good line you've got there. Just 1mS of jitter !!! With a ping of just 22mS you can well afford to have deeper Inter Depth applied without noticing any difference. Obviously stability is key to a good BB line, so maybe have your US and DS set to '4' or even '8' ??? It's good to be in a position of choice.

My thoughts too. :)
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  Eric

kitz

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Re: How does DLM work with ADSL2+?
« Reply #12 on: February 26, 2012, 11:17:42 PM »

Quote
I've had US and DS both set at just '2',

Thanks for that updated info :)
Ive been out of the loop for a while and not as up to date as I should be, hence me saying 'used to be 4 for the downstream'
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Azzaka

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Re: How does DLM work with ADSL2+?
« Reply #13 on: February 27, 2012, 12:02:27 PM »

Roseway, shoot me the account details and I'll have DLM hardset the profile for you.
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roseway

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Re: How does DLM work with ADSL2+?
« Reply #14 on: February 27, 2012, 12:56:44 PM »

Many thanks for that, details sent by PM.
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