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Author Topic: Unusual Sky Broadband fault  (Read 3870 times)

waltergmw

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Unusual Sky Broadband fault
« on: February 19, 2012, 02:24:14 PM »

Gentlefolk,

I thought you might like to see these 2Wire diagnostics pictures as I've never seen anything like this before.
I had to sort out some horrible star wiring first but then discovered a capped Sky service @ 384 Kbps but with a Max1 speed of 13809 Kbps.
The bit loading started at tone 117 and ran at only 2 bits per tone up to tone 431 as shown in the picture below.

After this see the next reply

Kind regards
Walter

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 07:22:57 PM by waltergmw »
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waltergmw

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Re: Unusual Sky Broadband faut
« Reply #1 on: February 19, 2012, 02:34:17 PM »

There then followed the usual claptrap about changing filters as they might be causing the problem !
After repeating the modem reset with a different filter from the test socket Sky then examined the line so we saw a dramatic improvement once they reset the ADSL connection and re-synced it. The downstream bit loading now started at tone 32 with some tones loaded to hex D and continued right up to tone 501 even there providing 5 bits loaded.

I was also pleased to be considered something of a magician as I actually knew how to deal with the "fault repair" team !

Kind regards,
Walter

[attachment deleted by admin]
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 07:23:19 PM by waltergmw »
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roseway

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Re: Unusual Sky Broadband faut
« Reply #2 on: February 19, 2012, 03:12:30 PM »

That first bitloading diagram is very strange indeed. I wonder if that's just what happens when a line capable of high speed is capped at a very low speed.

Congratulations on your magician award. :)
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  Eric

burakkucat

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Re: Unusual Sky Broadband fault
« Reply #3 on: February 19, 2012, 03:28:44 PM »

Certainly the most peculiar bit-loading diagram that I have ever seen.  :-\

But, fortunately, the "Ewhurstshire Wizard" was on the case.  :-X
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 11:17:16 PM by burakkucat »
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kitz

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Re: Unusual Sky Broadband faut
« Reply #4 on: February 19, 2012, 03:39:11 PM »

It is entirely possible that the weird bit loading in your first post was entirely due to the imposed cap of 384 kbps on a line that is capable of so much more.

Once you had sorted out the mess of the star wiring and put the line in a better condition....

The line will have gone through the synch process.  The transceiver training stage will have analysed what the line 'should' have been capable of.  Then the channel analysis will have worked out which tones are available for bit loading..  which now would be a complete new and longer range.

With the enforced cap in place, the modem has probably decided to distribute those low bit loading across all the available tones.

Im on a VERY short line capable of high speeds and the very even bit loading of only a few bits per tone across all available tones is something not unusual to see if the line is capped at a speed much lower than its capable of**.  You will also see a lesser bit loading over the earlier tones due to the PSD mask.   Also bear in mind that at sync time if its going to 'load a tone' then it will do so with 2 bits.


I dont know why zero bits up to tone 117... and this is where Im guessing.. but it could be something to do with the PSD mask and power cut back.   There are several different PSD masks in use depending upon location from the exchange. The PSD mask ensures that certain earlier tones dont load as many bits as the later ones. 
Tone 117 does seem a bit far.. iirc it used to be up to about tone 60 on my line.



*Should point out this has to be a line cap at the MSAN level and NOT anything to do with speed capped by something such as the BTw IP profile.
« Last Edit: February 19, 2012, 03:46:11 PM by kitz »
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waltergmw

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Re: Unusual Sky Broadband faut
« Reply #5 on: February 19, 2012, 10:02:15 PM »

Thanks very much Kitz and for the good wishes from all of you !

Upon this occasion my infamy had spread as far as the Chanctonbury Ring on the South Downs!

I should perhaps point out that this service is on a Sky LLU at Storrington, but I expect that using the Broadcom MSAN, they will be following the BT design but perhaps with different parameter settings.

Anyway I'm pleased that it seems to be another morsel of experience worth recording.

Kind regards,
Walter
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waltergmw

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Re: Unusual Sky Broadband faut
« Reply #6 on: February 19, 2012, 10:03:40 PM »

There then followed the usual claptrap about changing filters as they might be causing the problem !
After repeating the modem reset with a different filter from the test socket Sky then examined the line so we saw a dramatic improvement once they reset the ADSL connection and re-synced it. The downstream bit loading now started at tone 32 with some tones loaded to hex D and continued right up to tone 501 even there providing 5 bits loaded.

I was also pleased to be considered something of a magician as I actually knew how to deal with the "fault repair" team !

Kind regards,
Walte
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kitz

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Re: Unusual Sky Broadband faut
« Reply #7 on: February 20, 2012, 03:14:03 PM »

Quote
but I expect that using the Broadcom MSAN, they will be following the BT design but perhaps with different parameter settings.

Much of the technology and design will be the same.
 
Despite searching long and hard in the past I never could find any definite information about the PSD masks and which tones they affect other than there are a few different ones in use by BTw depending upon your distance from the exchange.

They will certainly affect up to tones 60 on most lines to some extent.  If your line is good enough this is what causes the inverted U shape when graphing upstream and the lower end of the downstream bins.

Be* appears to be unusual in that it also blanks out tones 476 - 499 for some weird reason.  A bit annoying if youre on a line which could make good use of them.

----


One of the earlier parts of the sync process is channel analysis.  This is when the modem checks which tones are good enough to use and this happens before the setting of any sync speed.

In your case the modem will have gone through channel analysis and knows which range of tones it has available to load and the maximum bits that it can load in each of those tones.

adsl1 standards mean that a minimum of 2 bits per available tone will be loaded.
(the cap of 384kbps means its highly likely this restriction cap will also be set to G.992.1 standards).

So after its gone through channel analysis the next stage of radsl is setting the sync speed. Normally the modem would fill all the bins (determined as available in the previous analysis) with as many bits as it can so that the sync speed is determined.

However in your particular case.. the modem knows it has a whole range of bins that are good.. yet now the enforced cap of 384 kicks in.  Now it It can only load a total of 'y' bits in all of the bins that are sufficient to meet the speed of 384 and its got a whole range to play with.

Logic would imply that the modem would start at tone 33 and fill to the end.....
but in your case its almost looks as if the modem has started filling the bins backwards.. and it ran out of bits to load by the time it reached tone 117.
 
I suppose its also very possible that its actually loaded the middle set of tones available. Ive not done the actual maths to check up on this - but its something I suppose that could be done if you had the patience to do so...  but as a rough guess seeing that tone 500+ is available from your 2nd set of results..  this is exactly what it appears to have done...  and dumped 2 bits in each of those middle tones of the available range.

-----
I think it will be a long time before we see a similar graph again.  I dont think there will be many lines that are capable of 16Mbps capped to a lowly 384 kbps.

This didnt even happen in days of old when you may have had a good line on a 512kb line.  The technology was different - the additional tones werent open for use.. and it wasnt radsl. 
Here we are seeing the difference between a fixed rate line with the use of power cut back and a full adsl2+ rate adaptive line that is capped with a profile set at the MSAN.

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kitz

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Re: Unusual Sky Broadband faut
« Reply #8 on: February 20, 2012, 03:33:58 PM »

Quote
I was also pleased to be considered something of a magician as I actually knew how to deal with the "fault repair" team !

Well done you :)

I found in the past the hard part is getting to speak to a technical team but once you get through to them they are ok.



As an aside Im laughing to myself  re one time I phoned up sky on behalf of someone else to sort out a fault. The convo went something along the lines of... 
The guy had already said a few times to me "You seem to know an awful lot about how it works". 
After about the 3rd time I conceded and said "yeah I have a website about it - you may have heard of it - kitz?
Tech:  "No sorry I dont think so"..  pause...  "Wait!!!   kitz-dot-co-dot-uk?   Yes I know that site!? "
Me: "Yeah thats the one".
Tech: "Oh!"   At this point I seriously could almost hear the cogs rattling in his brain that he was speaking to a female voice... so I pre-empted this.
Me: "Yes Im 'kitz' "

At that point I got what I needed.
« Last Edit: February 20, 2012, 11:34:49 PM by kitz »
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burakkucat

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Re: Unusual Sky Broadband fault
« Reply #9 on: February 20, 2012, 11:24:45 PM »

Superb story, Kitz. Did you send him either your autograph or a paw-print?  ;)

(In parenthesis, I'll mention that perhaps you would like to remove the repetition from your post? It seems that you decided to edit it and failed to remove the original first "chunk".)
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kitz

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Re: Unusual Sky Broadband fault
« Reply #10 on: February 20, 2012, 11:36:30 PM »

>> remove the repetition from your post?

thank you....  a result of C+P gone wrong  :-[
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burakkucat

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Re: Unusual Sky Broadband fault
« Reply #11 on: February 21, 2012, 12:33:32 AM »

Quote
thank you....  a result of C+P gone wrong  :-[

Something we've all done before and will, no doubt, do again in the future.  :ouch:
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coolsnakeman

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Re: Unusual Sky Broadband fault
« Reply #12 on: March 14, 2012, 04:06:29 PM »

The advisor sound like he was from belfast (northern ireland) kitz? Cause the rattling of the cogs in his brain would sound about right lol (bare in mind i did do support sky broadband but now i do business support for BT so i guess i was good enough to go up a notch lol).

Gary
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