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[sevenlayermuddle]

Thanks for all the advice.

But is there any sure fire way that I can avoid BT charging for the visit?    I believe the ISP has been 'threatening' that may happen, which makes me reluctant to go that route.

Don't get me wrong, I've personally never had a bad experience with BT front-line staff and if it were my line I'd take that chance.   But here I'm meant to be helping out a neighbour, it would be awful if my 'help' backfired and landed them with a £150 (or whatever) bill.   

One thing especially makes me worry... they had a BT engineer out a few weeks ago;   should he have offered to install a NTE-5 if it were available, or are the engineers told they should wait until the customer requests one?

[HPsauce]

Maybe one of our "better informed" members can comment. 

And they did. 

[kitz]

I right in thinking that BT should fit an NTE5 for him for free if he doesn't have one?

That was the idea and I thought normalisation was supposed to be free.  An engineer will normally do so if visiting if you offer tea and biccies.     I dont think they will go rummaging in loft space though unless its safe. They wont always offer to replace it even if they know theres no NTE - they didnt at my parents.

 
Admittedly I havent looked too far, but according to this price list, its £25+VAT unless he qualifies as disabled.
http://www.bt.com/pricing/current/Exch_Lines_boo/2-0002_d0e63.htm

Id push to see if you can get normalisation done for free though, and Im afraid it will mean going through BT's helpdesk. 

[burakkucat]

If it was my premises, I think I would be up a ladder to check the external grey connector box (probably a BT66). Assuming gel-crimped connections therein, I would install a new NTE5/A in the required location and run a new length of CW1308 cable from the NTE5/A up & then out into the BT66. Make two new gel-crimped connections and the job is done.

The existing internal wiring, now obsolete, could then be reconfigured for telephony extensions only (daisy-chained) and the other irrelevant sections & sockets just scrapped. With a SSFP fitted to the NTE5/A (plus a data extension, if necessary), it would be "purrfect".

Done with care and precision, no one would be able to tell if it was the paw-work of a felice domesticus or the hoof-work of an ovis aries. 

[Black Sheep]

Ha ha, B*Cat. Fancy a job working with Kellies Heroes ??

[Ronski]

I would also be doing the same as BK 

[sevenlayermuddle]

OK chaps,

But given that I'd not want to remake the gel-cramped connectors in the outside termination box, I'd be constrained with placing the NTE-5 within radius of the existing cable that enters the loft, so it may have to go in the loft.

I don't actually foresee any major problems with having the NTE in the loft.   But if I do so, would that be likely to incur wrath, and accusations of bodgery, from any future BT engineers?

Also... should an NTE-5 have any kind of grounding?   I'm thinking of surge protection here.  A legal ground may obviously be hard in the loft.

Ta manyfold,

7LM

[HPsauce]

I'd probably go for a new junction box in the loft (standard indoors type) connecting the incoming wire to an existing cable that runs to a suitable place downstairs for the NTE5.
Obviously that cable would need to be disconnected from the existing wiring in the roof, so that it is "straight through" to the NTE5, unencumbered by other extension wiring. And I'd only use it if it was in good condition.

Then (well actually beforehand as I'd plan this first) I'd work out what, if any, of the "old" wiring was actually needed for extensions - with modern cordless phones the answer may well be none whatsoever. 

If some wired extensions are required run suitable cables to the locations from the NTE5, or to suitable places to reconnect to the old wiring and "rejig" as necessary.

I've done this sort of "rationalistation" before and with a bit of care and thought it's surprising how little you need to do.

[sevenlayermuddle]

Admittedly I havent looked too far, but according to this price list, its £25+VAT unless he qualifies as disabled.
http://www.bt.com/pricing/current/Exch_Lines_boo/2-0002_d0e63.htm

Id push to see if you can get normalisation done for free though, and Im afraid it will mean going through BT's helpdesk.

Ah sorry, I missed kitz's post in my bleary eyed state this morning.  Even if they won't do it for free, doing it for £25 would be tempting.  I'm going to need to have a good long think about all this before I make any hard recomendations.

Pros of putting the NTE in the loft is that's where the existing wiring is known to be accessible   I'd still have to resolve the star issues, but some compromise may be needed.

For an example of compromise, one curiosity that would present a challenge to series wiring is an antique-looking external (electro-mechanical) bell which they'd quite like to get retain in working order.   It seems to be connected via a spur that snakes quite a long way around the eaves.  My plan for the latter would be to try leaving it as a spur from the loft as it is, but attach a filter at the start of the spur.   I'm predicting (yet to be proven) that whilst that is still 'star', the fact it's filtered would mitigate the damage..?

Several wired extensions will be needed as there is a fax machine downstairs as well as the PC several rooms away.   Come to think of it, I'm not even sure where the DECT base station is connected, I better hunt that out on my next visit!

I'll probably be returning to this project late next week, and will provide feedback with any decisions, progress, and anything learned from the kind of experimentation described above.   

[Ronski]

Two of my brothers have the master socket in the loft, one put there by BT by request, BT has been out to my other brothers for an unrelated fault, nothing was said. They do ideally have to be within easy reach of the loft hatch.

[burakkucat]

Also... should an NTE-5 have any kind of grounding?   I'm thinking of surge protection here.  A legal ground may obviously be hard in the loft.

Grounding (or earthing) at the NTE5 has not been a requirement for many years. With reference to over-voltage surge protection, the latest version of the NTE5 does not have any such components fitted. 

[Black Sheep]

It will be that bell that is killing the speed 7LM.

To reiterate, then I'm outta here  ........... ring their ISP explaining that the current speeds fall far short of neighbouring properties. They will ask for you (them) to try it in the tset socket. This is when you announce there isn't one anywhere in the house, and as such, you aren't able to demarcate from OR owned and EU owned wiring. That should be the only trigger needed to get at least a basic broadband engineering visit raised ?
They will always quote charges at you, that's their remit. We don't just get genuine people ringing up, we get those that 'try it on', or have done wanton vandalism to our cables/sockets. As such, they have to cover themselves by quoting potential charges.

Take some photographs of the existing installation, if it will help put your mind at ease that the work (siting of an NTE5) will be carried out for free, as proof, should any billing come back your way. This is daily 'bread & butter' stuff for us, and I've not known charges to be passed on to the EU from the ISP.

Of course, as in all walks of life, it depends who darkens your doorstep as to the complexity of the work they will carry out ?? Some (Contractors on 'paid-per-job') will most likely site the NTE5 in the loft (if it's accessible, lit and boarded out) and goodnight Vienna. So will some noobie BTOR engineers (getting their arses kicked for prod by their managers). Others (Baa), will do as much as possible in the 2hr limit to ensure the circuit maximises the DSL speed for the EU.

Ring the ISP, we are responsible for the wiring/NTE and will do it for free. 

[burakkucat]

It will be that bell that is killing the speed 7LM.

Just thinking about the mayhem a Bellset No 25 or No 26 could have on the circuit. 

[sevenlayermuddle]

Well the plot thickens.

As an 'experimental' measure, I disconnected all ring wires, and the wire to the outside bell.  That left us with star wiring, but otherwise fairly optimal.    We then connected at 2.5Mbps -ish, which a big improvement but is still disappointing for a 52 dB line on 9dB target margin.

Trouble is, I noticed in the space of a couple minutes the downstream margin varied from target of 9 dB, then suddenly up to 11, then about 16, then back to 8 and so on.  Job not done, then.     

Quiet line test was silent when I tried, but I'm told the line is often crackly so possible line fault there.   I've therefor suggested we get BT to come along and install an NTE5, hopefully free of charge.   I will then tackle the wiring again, but it should also simplify things if BT subsequently need to get any voice-line faults investigated...

[sevenlayermuddle]

To round this one off, neighbour in question now has an NTE-5, installed foc by OR 

As noted in a different thread, some kind of extreme noise problem still exists, and that is what was causing massive drifts in SNRM.   It affects my line too and so fair to assume it is 'external'.   Once that is resolved I can return and, with clear conscience, attempt some more imaginative optimisation of the internal wiring.