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Hiya
I'm fed up of BT's Target SNR sillyness... both Be and UKOnline / Sky are available on my exchange (I think it's probably a Sky exchange, as it was enabled 04.03.07 according to Kitz's ADSL Checker (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adslchecker.php)).
So the choice is: Be Unlimited or UKOnline >8Mbps service (which are a similar cost - I don't really want to start paying more for my BB each month)
Be: Pros
3 month contract - UKO is 12 months
Higher upload than the 8Mb UKO product (1.3Mb compared to 768kbps - not a biggie but nice)
Possibility I'll get 9 or 10Mbps on ADSL2+
Free bebox (wow!)
UKO: Pros
Better support?
No Level3!
Can't think of any other pros for UKO, but I'm sure there are any. Anyway, please can I have all your thoughts on the matter, as I've decided I'm going to move.
Cheers guys... oh and in true AOL-stylee...
/discuss ;)
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Post your stats - preferably from the master socket and I'll take a guess at sync speed. 9 or 10Mbps will be ADSL2 rather than ADSL2+ territory though. Edit 2 - I don't believe you'll get 1.3Mbps on Be unless you sync at ADSL2+ rates but I can't remember for sure. (ircsome will know)
Do bear in mind that Be is very likely for the chop - I just can't see any way that O2 will keep them going. Support is awful right now and there is no point in having a callcentre in the UK and another in Sofia. The BeBox isn't free either (unless that changed) - it belongs to Be and they will want £100 from you if you keep/damage it.
The UKOnline service that I think you're referring to has a 1Mbps upload (edit no it doesn't it is 768kbps). Support seems OK but I wouldn't want to say they definitely are as I haven't exactly asked them anything difficult :)
I wouldn't go back to IPStream if you paid me.
Edit3 - use of the BeBox is apparently still compulsory if you want support. So is having remote logins enabled :sick: I turned the remote login stuff off when I realised the first thing they do is reset the box to defaults - which is so good <sarcasm alert> when you've changed the default LAN IP address :(
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Cheers for the reply.
Stats at the moment down are 37dB attn, 12dB SNR @ 5024kbps. Upstream is 11dB attn, 24dB margin @ 448kbps. So I'm not looking for any miracles, but I would hope for something heading towards the 8Mbps region! Maybe I'm asking too much.
What is UKO and Be's target SNR margin, do you know?
Do you not sync at ADSL2+ if you can anyway, I'm not 100% familiar with what decides when an ADSL2 sync would become an ADSL2+ sync, if you know what I mean.
£100 for the bebox - that's a bit steep, however I can't see myself damaging it or wanting to keep it, or even wanting to use it lol :P
I dunno whether I'm still drawn to Be or UKO - how bad is the support with Be? I guess the only good thing is that I could give it 3 months and if it's really bad, move to UKO after that if I decided that LLU was the way forward.
And, (sorry for all the questions) how bad is Level3 really? Was it a deciding factor in your moving away?
Cheers for the response, I just want to make a decent informed decision
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Any chance of a few more details like errored seconds, CRC errors etc Chris?
On the face of it you should get 12 or 13Mbps with those specs. ADSL2+ is above 12Mbps downstream and there are numerous examples of people who only sync at ADSL2 on Be. I can't remember 100% whether that dropped the upstream - just checked ircsomes place and there's one guy only getting 4Mbps but still syncing at ADSL2+ (G992.5 Annex A). His upstream is about 21dB and he's getting 1.2Mbps up or so. He does have significant problems with his connection though :)
Be will set you to a 6dB interleaved profile on downstream, as will UKO (on the 22Mbps service anyway). It doesn't really matter what they set the margin to provided you have a router which DMT can modify the margins. Edit - I would STRONGLY recommend this.
Support at Be is on a par with Tiscali right now. The people in Sofia can do nothing meaningful - if it needs escalating then Brett/Louise (who are NOT techies) deal with it and supposedly pass it on to O2 second line support. If you require an Openreach visit then you'll have to agree to Be debiting your card prior to the visit. I am not clear as to whether they refund that if the fault is on the BT side of your master socket. I suspect they don't and you'd have to argue for it back. Good luck if that's the case.
Level3 is awful. The problem is that for the backhaul the BT LES (lan extension services) get dumped into the nearest Level3 POP and there you stay. What peering there is (and there's very little) happens at packetexchange (guess who runs that ;) ). Be don't upgrade the Level3 transit until people start screaming at them in my experience. Lots of people :) It was a major factor in me moving, as was the IWF fiasco.
I'd look at O2 rather than Be if you're looking for an alternative to UKO.
PS - http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/3235-be-unlimited-causes-stir-in-effort-of-blocking-child-abuse-images.html is the article Seb wrote based on the info/whinge I gave him :)
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Any chance of a few more details like errored seconds, CRC errors etc Chris?
Not at the moment... I'm at work and need to telnet into my router to get stats like that... will do when I get home.
Cheers for the reply. It's just the 12 month contract with UKO that's putting me off really, given it's a leap into the 'unknown' for me anyway. Having said that I guess if the support is so much better then they're more likely to get problems sorted, one would hope!
:)
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You mentioned in another thread that your line might have a minor fault? If so then don't use Be as even if you get less speed than you do now they simply won't raise it as a fault with BT. If you persist and try to get them to do something they will just say "That is all your line is capable of" and if you further persist (like saying it managed more than that before I joined you) they will invite you to leave.
If you have any suspicion of a fault then don't go to Be.
Edit - I'm not sure about UKO's support yet, but unless its something catastrophic I won't need to call them as I can usually fix it with the DMT Tool.
PS - As an aside does anyone know if the DG843GT is meant to have bitswapping turned off? Mine seemed to until I turned it on last night. Seems damn weird having it turned off on ADSL2+ ???
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Yes, it does have a small fault as regards interference that I can't source, and I suspect it is coming from a neighbouring flat, and possibly induced into the wire before it even gets up to my NTE5.
It's looking more and more like UKO would be better really, isn't it. Funny that, because I was a little bit more swayed towards Be before, but now I'm not so sure!
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Were I you I'd try to find some others on UKO who have had problems and see what they have to say.
I'm not really in a position to judge UKO support yet and I told kitz (much to her disappointment) months ago - March/April? - that Be were muppets so I'm not exactly Mr Impartial there :P
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Still thinking or have you decided?
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Well, I have my MAC key now - not thought about it that much to be honest. The 12 month contract with UKO is the only sting.
I need to move my domains / email away from PlusNet before I do anything, too. Just being lazy I suppose!
I'm still thinking I may try Be for 3 months, if they're rubbish I will eat humble pie and move to UKO! ;)
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I hear you and I thought much the same. Be were frankly awful for the first 2 months then the outages subsided. Then Level3 and the IWF happened (over a period of weeks). That is my experience with them in a nutshell.
I can't see the O2 rollout being painless though, that's the thing - the Jesus Phone (AKA iphone) is on the way - so I doubt that you'll get the benefits I got when the network functioned (totally uncontended network in early 2007 - and I do mean TOTALLY). I think you might be better going for the O2 offer given your line stats - and that they offer a 100 day money-back guarantee if you're not happy.
Me, I went Be as I literally had no choice. IPstream on the legacy DSLAM was useless (200ms on an idle line) with no way to get off it other than cease & provide or go LLU. I have no qualms at all about UKOnline now as they've been around long enough to know what they are doing (Easynet as was).
The O2 network bods only got their "hands" on the Be "network" in early 2007 and I remember a (swiftly deleted by Be staff) post where an O2 network bod said "We're sorting it out now so don't worry". I rather think O2 did sort out the ridiculous (30+ hours EVERY weekend) outages too.
I have to emphasise again Chris that if you suspect your line has a fault then Be are not the way to go. Really old lad I kid you not. Please ask the people you may know on Be about this (ircsome and yesyes are fairly impartial). Nicola (nredwood) isn't as she freely admits she's on a special "lifetime" deal with Be.
Best of luck whichever way you go - you will find the service (if/when it works) much better than IPStream. IMHO.
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Cheers... I keep changing my mind! :P
What's the default SNR Margin on UKO, by the way.. and how easy (if at all) is it to get it changed without using DMT?
Thanks for the continued responses in this thread, btw... it's all helping (even if I'm not any more decisive yet... I'll suddenly make my mind up, I'm like that!)
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For me it was a 6dB profile. I have no idea how easy it is to get changed I'm afraid as I use DMT to tweak things. Be are (or were) very good at changing profiles/interleaving via the ticket system (20 minutes or so for a "fastpath" change). Via phone is a different matter as Bulgarian and (my) Scots accent don't really mix - I did get on really well with the peeps in Sofia though.
Again I'd emphasise that LLU works very well with a solid line. You seem to have a problem with yours so DMT is a must-have. In that instance if money for a new router is an issue then Be might be a good way to "dip your toes" into LLU. Alternatively buy a DG834PN which works well on both Be and UKO apparently but I have no personal experience of that. I would say that although the data granularity on the DG834GT I have seems finer than the 780WL (BeBox) that the DMT Tool + 780WL is MUCH MUCH better than the DG834GT.
Do remember Level3 - really! It isn't a minor problem by any means but if you are a little north of Manchester (as I suspect) then you might have a fighting chance of avoiding packetexchange. If it works that way then there goes one of the major probs. Actually didn't kitz setup a couple of Be lines? Get some tracert's from them and see where it goes. I'd suggest the following :
www.dilbert.com (usually awful at the best of times)
news.bbc.co.uk (nice test to see peering)
admin.1and1.co.uk (it'll go to Germany)
www.linx.net (obvious I'd guess)
www.lonap.net (Seb on TBB runs this)
www.lipex.net (another London peering exchange)
Give that a try - ask them to do a tracert and then do a ping -t for at least 3 hours in whatever you consider YOUR peak time.
Hope that helps.
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Cheers :)
Money for a new router isn't the issue at all, it's just that I'd prefer not to have to... I like the stability of the Netgear I've got and all my NAT rules etc are already in there!!
Yes, I am near Blackpool too, so it is a little north-west of Manchester. The lines Kitz set up weren't round here though. I don't know anyone who's on Be, I may bite the bullet and ask on ADSLGuide, but then again, I may just chance it.
My line does have an intermittent fault, it seems. SNR will plummet down by around 4dB or so, then hours later it will just as suddenly go back up to normal. I survived synced at 8128 non-interleaved for about 6 months on a 6dB target profile, even though the SNR would go down to 0dB (and CRC errors would rack up during that time), so whilst I have a problem, it's not that bad. It's obviously *something* in one of the neighbouring flats.
Having said that, I haven't checked it for ages, so I've just re-started MRTG and will have a look over the next day or two to see what's going on!
I have also been browsing TBB's Be and UKO forums, and I've seen that Be are now using some form of DLM, but there doesn't appear to be much info available about it. Don't really wanna jump out of the frying pan into the fire - but I wonder if UKO will follow suit!
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Chris is on the neighbouring exchange to me - they got as far as his exchange, here was due to be the following month - but they pulled out re the take-over.
I think if Be was here then I'd risk it for 3 months - if its really bad then theres always the "pay your way out" option.
Chris's problem IMHO I suspect isnt to much his line - but Ive said for a long while that I think something like a neighbours immersion heater etc causing additional noise. MRTG graphs are weird. Its like someone flicks a switch and the SNR plummets.. and then shoots back up again x hours later. No strict pattern aside from it happens mostly during the day, for several hours at a time.
The Be lines arent local so no indication Im afraid... other than similar atten to chris's (40dB) and I believe atm theyre struggling a bit speedwise due to Be increasing the Target SNR to stabilise. The guys thinking of having another BT line put in since sync speed isnt much different. Havent visited the premises and was meant to go down there this Wed to check them out.
Dont know anyone round here who has Be since I think chris's exchange is about the only one they did. Sky seems ok - but most of the people round here seem to go for the 8Mb package with TV rather than pay extra for the 16Mb so no indication on that re the higher speeds either.
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Sorry chris - your post wasnt there when I started mine.
Re the router - I'd already d/c my speedtouch so you can have a go with that and see if it was yours that had a problem so at least you can have a play about with DMT tool if you want. Could also try the Voyager 2100 (broadcom) out of interest, which also works with DMT if you wanted, but I know youre loathe to mess too much since how fast the DLM at your exchange seems to move things downwards.
Rizla - The line was stable for many many months syncing at the full 8Mb just hanging on in there - and after just one incident things have never been the same since. If there was no BT profiling and he could get back to the bog standard default then it would probably be ok - but the DLM process seems to kick in for the slightest reason and speeds have gradually gone downhill. :/
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Just for information, a MRTG screengrab from my line is on this site (green = downstream margin, blue = upstream margin)
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kitz.co.uk%2Fadsl%2Fimages%2F2snr-week.gif&hash=de345a7c94e48ad592b899e1c48ceab76f2b1449)
That looks like my SNR margin the first week of being 'maxed'. You can see it jump down at the beginning from about 21dB (when I was on 2Mb), and then see the fun begin - like I say whether it's still like that or not I don't know, I haven't had MRTG running for months.
Kitz - yes I may well try some stuff out, as the state of the line can't be much worse anyway :P
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Ah I see. Welcome to ADSL2+ I'm afraid guys.
I installed a new light in the dining room (the one I've been moving stuff around in kitz). So being a sensible (mainly) chap I go buy a nice 3 lamp fixture. It uses CFLs (low energy bulbs) which don't have their own ballast (the bit that makes them light) which is excellent as you can have 3 x 10W CFLs producing the equivalent of 180W incandescent power and you don't throw away the electronics every time the fluorescent tube dies. Anyway the light has its own ballast.
Turn it on - no gradual brightening. Wait two secs then the CFLs go on at full "brightness". Energy saving to the world* = 120W
ADSL drops. Boost it 1dB by using DMT - sorted. Speed drops by 200kbps or so. Its only going to get worse. Mine is stable now and any changes are generally down to me. In six months? I wonder, I really do...
*yeah and like anyone believes that
PPS - I thought for one sec that the MRTG graph was a SNR graph.... :D
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> PPS - I thought for one sec that the MRTG graph was a SNR graph....
I know... a bit weird looking isn't it. Like I say will leave it on from now on and see what it shows up over the next day or wo. The flat downstairs has had a change of occupancy recently, so if luck was on my side it woulda been some dodgy item of equipment the old downstairs neighbours had, and haven't got anymore!
But I doubt that'll be the case, somehow ;)
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Do remember that you're going to get twice the frequency range (bandwidth) on ADSL2+ so you pick up more random electrical noise but you have a hell of a lot more bins to "choose from". In general (for now) the swings exceed the roundabouts - ie LLU (ADSL2+) goes faster.
I really do miss the DMT Tool and the ST780WL. I can see noise in near real-time there (5 secs or so delay). Must find time in half-term to "re-educate" the BeBox :)
Get off IPstream Chris. You know what I think, but I'd advise asking Mark Taylor (TBB) about things if you already haven't. He thought LONG and hard about moving to them and seems happy.
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Do remember that you're going to get twice the frequency range (bandwidth) on ADSL2+ so you pick up more random electrical noise but you have a hell of a lot more bins to "choose from". In general (for now) the swings exceed the roundabouts - ie LLU (ADSL2+) goes faster.
Quite, which is why I'm prepared to give it a go. But why I'm loath to commit for 12 months :(
I really do miss the DMT Tool and the ST780WL. I can see noise in near real-time there (5 secs or so delay). Must find time in half-term to "re-educate" the BeBox :)
You sure you don't work for the plusnet comms team? I hear Mand is good at re-educating agents with her baseball bat :lol: (hi mand if you're reading! :D )
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Missing each other's edits again (probably all mine). Read back.
Never met or spoke to Mand. Pretty sure I spoke to James at the point I found out Plusnet bought Metronet. Pretty sure we don't need that discussion again as I gave him some stick based on my prior (1998 or so) experiences of what Plusnet did with email addresses. I think perhaps he'd agree with me now but Plusnet chose the "lets not get obviously sued" route then ;)
OK if I was you I'd go Be. I personally wouldn't but from your replies you are quite rightly getting advice from multiple sources. Get tracerts from kitz for those lines. It's not latency we are looking at but where they go. REALLY don't underestimate Level3 as once your traffic is in their system then the longer it stays there the more they earn. Going transatlantic for news.bbc.co.uk is normal.
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Chris is on the neighbouring exchange to me - they got as far as his exchange, here was due to be the following month - but they pulled out re the take-over.
Don't i know it. I saw it on Sam Knows and was waiting for it to happen and then all of a sudden BEtheres bank account lost the will to live :D.
Sky seems ok - but most of the people round here seem to go for the 8Mb package with TV rather than pay extra for the 16Mb so no indication on that re the higher speeds either.
I applied for the 16MB one for my sister(last line still to move of Plus Net of 5) and they said that the exchange was not enabled so i stated that it was and gave them the "LCFLW" code and the man said, "Oh... Sorry sir the system is now showing that there are no more places left on our equipment. The only option you have is the full priced 8MB product". So... Still stuck with a legacy PN product that i get limited on for watching a Youtube video <definition of a joke>. I get told that 2GB is excessive usage but that another story LOL.
EDIT: I am currently uploading at least 2GB day on my home MLPPP line :lol: . As for downloads, about 80 GB a month and my ISP does not even bat an eyelid ;D. (currently seeding ubuntu 7.10 and CentOS while i am away so the upload will probably be alot lot lot more ::))
Chris this may help you with BE and O2
http://www.dontbethere.co.uk/forum/default.aspx (http://www.dontbethere.co.uk/forum/default.aspx) - this was where i learned that you can only usually get 10000kbps from speedtest.net(london) :o
There was a massive agument on the Draytek forums about why Bethere use "non standard equipment" that goes against references. This could mean that some modems don't get the full potential(or even a connection) out of the line.
James
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There was a massive agument on the Draytek forums about why Bethere use "non standard equipment" that goes against references.
I find that very ironic. I've had a Draytek you see - never ever ever again ;) Edit - Zen use IP unnumbered when you take a block of IP addresses from them. Draytek routers were badly broken regarding this and Draytek tried to put the blame on Zen for doing "non-standard" addressing. I pointed out rather forcefully that they didn't have the first clue what they were talking about. They fixed the problem three weeks later but apparently people had been having problems with this for months if not years.
Be's implementation does not "go against references". They use options on their DSLAMs that are part of G992.5 Annex A and Annex M. I fully agree that many modem/routers don't like those options but that isn't Be's fault.
I've had speedtests well above 10Mbps on speedtest.net (heh I once got 42.5Mbps :D ) but IMHO you won't get reliable speed tests anywhere above 10Mbps. Well 10 threads on usenet is about the most reliable indicator of current conditions to me. Numion is usually pretty reliable for me as well.
The site you quoted is ircsome's. I sort of assumed (again - bad rizla) that Chris knew where it was as kitz has it linked on her main site.
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>> they said that the exchange was not enabled so i stated that it was and gave them the "LCFLW" code and the man said, "Oh... Sorry sir the system is now showing that there are no more places left on our equipment.
Something I mentioned the other day in another thread (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,978.0.html), that sky is showing as having no more available ports at this exchange and would only put you on IPStream and the associated cost. But strangely UKO is (or at least was last week) and would have taken an order. Hence the discussion that perhaps UKO had their own x no of allocated ports on the sky dslam.
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Yep I'd seen that site thanks....
But contrary to advice, I've gone and done it. Signed up with Be today! I wanted to dip my toe into the LLU market... but 12 months with UKO is just too long to commit for in my book.
So we'll see how it goes :)
Cheers rizla in particular for all the input into this thread, I have definitely listened to and taken in what you've been saying.
Here's hoping it's a good connection ;D
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Hope it all goes well. Hopefully you don't have to deal with Brett & Louise.
On that subject I'm off back to the Be member centre again as they've messed up the final payments on my account.
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Will you be using wireless on the BeBox Chris? If so I assume you know about running it upside down to get rid of the heat?
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I didn't know actually and thanks for telling me :)
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Someone (I think it's on ircsome's forums?) modded the BeBox by attaching a northbridge fan to the outside of it. The clever bit is that they powered the fan from a phone socket - one of the VoIP sockets on the back - which I thought was rather inventive :)
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Have they given you a migration date yet Chris?
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Yeah the 30th.. so it's happening on Tuesday apparently! Fingers crossed everything goes ok.
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If you have BT guys like we have here then no worries. I've done 6 migrations (2 via LLU) and it always works fine. They ALWAYS do a ringback test and most always call to see whether all is OK if you pickup during the ringback test. I know people knock BT Openreach but I won't hear a word against the guys here as they have always been quite superb.
Hopefully it's all seamless (or as near as possible for you) - but one thing springs to mind. A friend tells me that Be are very short of "BeBox" units (6 weeks leadtime).
Have you got yours yet? If you have a problem then I can lend you mine for the duration (you'd want to run the setup CD on it again though) as I seem to finally have convinced the Netgear that it is in its own best interests to co-operate on UKO ;)
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Today's the day then :) Do let us know how it went yes?
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If we never hear from Chris again we'll know it went wrong. :D
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Still on PlusNet for now... lol
Typically, I've just been called up, and I need to use my net connection for something work related. Great, when it's gonna go off at any point and may not come back up for some time!!
Talk about good timing :-\
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Well folks, I'm back!! Syncing at 9,871 down, 1,287 up ;D ;D
Just done a speedtest at bbmax and got 8,502 / 1,082 so I'm well chuffed :)
http://www.speedtest.bbmax.co.uk/results.php?t=1193757760&v=2658102
Fingers crossed it all stays this good ;)
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Stats?
:P
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Oh yeah silly me :P
Modemstate : up
Operation Mode : G.992.5 Annex A
Channel Mode : interleaved
Number of resets : 2
Vendor Local Remote
Country : 0f 00
Vendor : TMMB Á VendorSpecific :
0000 0000
StandardRevisionNr : 00 00
Downstream Upstream
Margin [dB] : 6.0 6.5
Attenuation [dB] : 42.0 22.0
OutputPower [dBm] : 19.0 12.0
Intrinsic/Actual Bandwidth %
Upstream : 100
Downstream : 78
Available Bandwidth Cells/s Kbit/s
Downstream : 23280 9871
Upstream : 3035 1287
Transfer statistics
Errors
Received FEC : 10200
Received CRC : 1
Received HEC : 0
Transmitted FEC : 0
Transmitted CRC : 48
Transmitted HEC : 34
Near end failures since reset
Loss of frame: 0 failures
Loss of signal: 0 failures
Loss of power: 0 failures
Errored seconds: 1 seconds
Near end failures last 15 minutes
Loss of frame: 0 seconds
Loss of signal: 0 seconds
Loss of power: 0 seconds
Errored seconds: 0 seconds
Near end failures current day
Errored seconds: 1 seconds
Near end failures previous day
Errored seconds: 0 seconds
That's after about 50 minutes uptime and 750MB downloaded! Not too bad at all methinks :)
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You've got the same attenuation as me, and I only get ~5700 down and 448 up on a BT line (mumble, mumble, try not to be jealous).
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My attenuation on BT was only 37dB... looks like Be measure differently, probably using a higher frequency. I believe BT attenuation is measured at 300kHz (don't quote me on that), which is pretty much meaningless for ADSL2+ frequencies.
I'm well chuffed - can you tell ;)
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Looking very good on downstream FEC and CRC Chris. I would be inclined to give it two weeks just to see if you do have an intermittent fault and if it still looks like that then raise a ticket to be put on fastpath. That will probably give you another 1.5Mbps or so on downstream sync rate.
What was the BeBox BTW? 780WL or the earlier Speedtouch they've had to use recently?
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Looks like whatever the intermittent fault on my line was... it may have disappeared.. touchwood! I restarted MRTG on my NetGear to have a look at the stats before I got "Be'd" and the SNR was remarkably stable during the course of a whole week. Attached below.
It's a 585v6 rather than the 780WL which doesn't bother me to be honest. After the 2 weeks DLM training period is up I may try plugging my NetGear in for a laugh to see what happens ;) But I'm not going to do anything just yet! I don't want to cause trouble, honest guv ;)
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Ahh of course they have DLM now. I'd forgotten about that.
ST585 - that was it. No VoIP ports yeah?
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Nope, but that doesn't bother me either since I don't really use VoIP that much! I can always get an ATA if I feel so inclined. I've got a USB phone and X-Lite too which I used with PlusTalk a few times to use some of my free minutes (when it was working!) ;)
Actually, funnily enough I was using it today when I got migrated!
But no, the lack of VoIP ports isn't an issue.
Yeah Re DLM - not sure what the details of it are, but I'm gonna leave well alone until 14 days is up! No point risking anything going wrong, I'm more than happy with my connection speed (for now!)
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Thought I'd post the obligatory BBC traceroute too ;)
Tracing route to www.bbc.net.uk [212.58.227.75]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 40 ms 99 ms 99 ms 192.168.1.254
2 16 ms 17 ms 16 ms 87-194-144-1.bethere.co.uk [87.194.144.1]
3 23 ms 27 ms 23 ms 10.1.2.1
4 23 ms 23 ms 23 ms 83.245.126.93
5 23 ms 23 ms 23 ms 212.58.238.153
6 24 ms 23 ms 23 ms 212.58.238.161
7 23 ms 23 ms 23 ms www5.rbsov.bbc.co.uk [212.58.227.75]
Trace complete.
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Looks like Level3 backhaul then as I spy packetexchange in that tracert :(
Can you try a tracert to www.dilbert.com to confirm please Chris?
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Tracing route to www.dilbert.com [204.78.53.196]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 37 ms 99 ms 99 ms 192.168.1.254
2 16 ms 17 ms 16 ms 87-194-144-1.bethere.co.uk [87.194.144.1]
3 23 ms 24 ms 23 ms 10.1.2.1
4 22 ms 23 ms 22 ms 213.161.72.69
5 23 ms 32 ms 23 ms so-0-0-0.mpr1.lhr2.uk.above.net [64.125.27.225]
6 94 ms 94 ms 94 ms so-0-1-0.mpr1.dca2.us.above.net [64.125.27.57]
7 109 ms 107 ms 107 ms so-1-0-0.mpr2.atl6.us.above.net [64.125.28.230]
8 112 ms 108 ms 108 ms above-ge.atl.bellsouth.net [64.125.12.222]
9 108 ms 109 ms 110 ms xer01pao-pos-3-0.bellsouth.net [65.83.236.193]
10 109 ms 115 ms 109 ms axr00asm-so-1-3-2.bellsouth.net [65.83.236.72]
11 115 ms 115 ms 115 ms ixc01cha-pos-6-0-0.bellsouth.net [65.83.239.29]
12 116 ms 115 ms 115 ms ixc00tys-pos-7-0-0.bellsouth.net [65.83.239.102]
13 115 ms 115 ms 115 ms 205.152.243.129
14 125 ms 124 ms 125 ms 68.152.210.226
15 125 ms 125 ms 125 ms stg.unitedmedia.com [204.78.53.196]
Trace complete.
Lots of abovenet hops there... aren't they pretty much in bed with Level3 anyway?
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Interesting. A few more if you would Chris
www.linx.net
www.lonap.net
www.ams-ix.net
www.youtube.com
-
Quickly because I'm going out... but here they are
U:\>tracert www.linx.net
Tracing route to www.linx.net [195.66.232.53]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 39 ms 99 ms 99 ms 192.168.1.254
2 17 ms 16 ms 16 ms 87-194-144-1.bethere.co.uk [87.194.144.1]
3 23 ms 36 ms 24 ms 10.1.2.1
4 118 ms 108 ms 99 ms bundle-2.er10.thlon.ov.easynet.net [195.66.224.4
3]
5 23 ms 29 ms 22 ms ip-89-200-130-58.ov.easynet.net [89.200.130.58]
6 23 ms 23 ms 24 ms te0-0-0.gr11.bllon.uk.easynet.net [87.86.77.43]
7 23 ms 23 ms 24 ms 87.86.71.153
8 24 ms 23 ms 23 ms ge1-0-0.er3.tclon.uk.easynet.net [82.108.6.146]
9 23 ms 23 ms 23 ms ge0-0-0.er3.thlon.uk.easynet.net [82.108.6.150]
10 23 ms 23 ms 25 ms ip-217-204-60-113.easynet.co.uk [217.204.60.113]
11 25 ms 24 ms 24 ms g0-0-124.tr2.tfm7.thn.linx.net [217.204.61.134]
12 23 ms 23 ms 23 ms ivory.linx.net [195.66.232.53]
Trace complete.
U:\>tracert www.lonap.net
Tracing route to www.lonap.net [212.13.205.11]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 25 ms 99 ms 99 ms 192.168.1.254
2 16 ms 16 ms 17 ms 87-194-144-1.bethere.co.uk [87.194.144.1]
3 * 23 ms 28 ms 10.1.2.1
4 * 23 ms 23 ms 213.161.72.69
5 23 ms 22 ms 23 ms so-1-0-0.mpr1.lhr2.uk.above.net [64.125.28.38]
6 23 ms 23 ms 23 ms lonap-gw-a.jump.net.uk [193.203.5.80]
7 23 ms 23 ms 22 ms www.lonap.net [212.13.205.11]
Trace complete.
U:\>tracert www.ams-ix.net
Tracing route to www.ams-ix.net [193.194.136.7]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 26 ms 99 ms 99 ms 192.168.1.254
2 17 ms 16 ms 16 ms 87-194-144-1.bethere.co.uk [87.194.144.1]
3 24 ms 23 ms 23 ms 10.1.2.1
4 * * * Request timed out.
5 22 ms 23 ms 23 ms so-0-0-0.mpr1.lhr2.uk.above.net [64.125.27.225]
6 36 ms 37 ms 47 ms so-1-0-0.mpr2.ams5.nl.above.net [64.125.27.178]
7 34 ms 34 ms 35 ms abovenet-1401.xe-0-0-0.jun1.galilei.network.bit.
nl [62.4.86.94]
8 40 ms 35 ms 35 ms jun1.sara.network.bit.nl [213.136.31.3]
9 38 ms 38 ms 38 ms rtr1.ams-ix.net [195.69.144.1]
10 51 ms 50 ms 50 ms www.ams-ix.net [193.194.136.7]
Trace complete.
U:\>tracert www.youtube.com
Tracing route to www.youtube.com [208.65.153.253]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 35 ms 99 ms 99 ms 192.168.1.254
2 16 ms 16 ms 17 ms 87-194-144-1.bethere.co.uk [87.194.144.1]
3 24 ms 23 ms 23 ms 10.1.2.1
4 * 22 ms 22 ms 213.161.72.69
5 22 ms 22 ms 23 ms globalcrossing-mfn.mfnx.net [208.185.188.66]
6 100 ms 207 ms 213 ms te2-1-10G.ar3.dca3.gblx.net [67.17.108.138]
7 215 ms 204 ms 202 ms YOUTUBE-LLC.tengigabitethernet8-2.ar3.DCA3.gblx.
net [208.48.1.186]
8 * * * Request timed out.
9 * ^C
Presumably the routers at 10.1.2.1 and 213.161.72.69 are busy at the moment with it being evening peak time. See what you make of those... I now shouldn't be here :-\
-
Hop 3 and hop 4 were always problematic for me. They DO drop packets - or at least they did on my connection and it gets significantly worse as the evening goes on. Sunday evening is a proper PITA.
However it looks like being near Manchester (network-wise) gives you some resilience which I didn't have as you're taking different routes to peering points which I never did :) You won't actually be peering there (LINX etc) much but it does look much better than my traceroutes did on Be.
You can only suck it and see but it looks better than I expected :)
-
Hmmm you get more upstream, I get SRA. You've got better routing than I got on Be; I'm fairly happy with UKO's routing - although there does seem to be an "interesting" round-robin transatlantic router arrangement which doesn't (IMHO) deal well with heavy load. I get marginally slower speeds at peak times than on Be but Be/O2's network was basically empty. 11 days until the Jesus Phone - I guess that'll fill it up a bit as peeps are bound to move broadband across to save some cash.
I don't think there's much between them really - although UKO seems to have a mailserver that works. Nobody in their right mind would use Be's :)
It'll be interesting to see how it goes for both of us over the next few months :)