Kitz Forum
Chat => Tech Chat => Topic started by: UncleUB on September 21, 2011, 07:11:01 AM
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We have switched over today and after doing a first time set up retune all is very good.
We did the first part of the switchover a couple of weeks back and while a lot of channels were good a few were giving a very poor signal or not even displaying at all.
But all seems well now...before the switchover the BBC channels were only giving a digital signal of around 50%,its now 80%,same with ITV 1,2 and 4.
The ITV3 channel which for some reason is on another block of channels was giving 0 to 20% a couple of weeks ago,now 55%.
I think a lot of people have switched over,but there are still areas that haven't......how was the switchover for you?
Our signal comes from the Emley Moor transmitter,which is in West Yorkshire
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Good morning, unkyUb :)
We went fully digital in May of this year and all went flawlessly. Very good quality pictures and a strong signal on all of some 88 channels (some of which are not worth watching ).
We have only one problem. Every evening at 1942 hours, and without fail, the signal breaks up for some 5 seconds across all channels. There must be a source of interference being switched on/off at that time every day... :( ........and it's not internal or exclusive to me, the whole village experiences the same problem.
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Good morning to you also TD......I hope you are well :)
We have our main TV only connected to the Sky + box(no aerial),But our little flat screen one in the bedroom that has built in freeview and a dvd player is connected to the aerial...
Which is in the loft connected to what only can be described as a brush stale :-X which is clamped to the joist. ;D
We have live here 11 years,there was a little old lady who lived here before who was living in a time warp.The aerial wire came down the walls from the loft(hidden behind wallpaper) :o :D.This has long since been replaced and re routed.We have never bothered replacing the aerial as we have always had a very good picture,just have to be careful when Sue goes in the loft for the Christmas decorations. ;D
Our main TV is just a 28" crt one and at present we are researching to upgrade to a new 40/42" set,blu ray player and a surround sound system(I am hoping that will benefit my poor hearing)
So in the next few weeks I shall be sending the collection plate round ;D
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We haven't switched over yet, but some years ago I installed a good aerial and masthead amplifier, so I get an adequate signal already.
Every evening at 1942 hours...
What a fascinating little problem. :) It's rather difficult to think of something which would black out a whole village like that at exactly the same time every day, but I suppose that 5 seconds isn't long enough to be any more than a minor irritation.
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We haven't switched over yet, but some years ago I installed a good aerial and masthead amplifier, so I get an adequate signal already.
When do you switch Eric......?
When we were at Pevensey in July we struggled to get a digital signal(bear in mind we were only using our little aerial on an adjustable mast),we had to use the analogue signal.
Is Pevensey in the same switchover area as yourself.?
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I get my TV from Dover, Phil, and the switchover is scheduled for June 2012.
In Pevensey I would have expected you to get a decent signal from Hastings, but maybe you were pointed at Heathfield instead.
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Thanks Eric,
I see the SE is in the Meridian TV area,which starts to switchover(depending where you live) Feb 2012
According to the Digital Region site,the campsite we go to does get its signal from the Heathfield transmitter and is due to switch ,first stage 30.05,2012 and second stage 13.06.2012 :)
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Good morning, unkyUb :)
We went fully digital in May of this year and all went flawlessly. Very good quality pictures and a strong signal on all of some 88 channels (some of which are not worth watching ).
We have only one problem. Every evening at 1942 hours, and without fail, the signal breaks up for some 5 seconds across all channels. There must be a source of interference being switched on/off at that time every day... :( ........and it's not internal or exclusive to me, the whole village experiences the same problem.
In Gloucestershire we got that break up at around 18:50 and now in North Yorkshire we get it at 19:14. Just the same - a 5 second break up, sometimes followed about 5 minutes later by another. Could it be the regions syncing their broadcasts?
Colin
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In Gloucestershire we got that break up at around 18:50 and now in North Yorkshire we get it at 19:14. Just the same - a 5 second break up, sometimes followed about 5 minutes later by another. Could it be the regions syncing their broadcasts?
The Mendip transmitter usually has a "blink" just after 8:30am and again just before 9:00am. It's so predictable I've time to go into the menu and check the channel data to watch when it occurs and it's always a signal strength blip rather than signal quality.
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Hi
quote:In Pevensey I would have expected you to get a decent signal from Hastings, but maybe you were pointed at Heathfield instead.
just a thought .in areas where you may have a choice of different transmitters, its worth remembering that you will probably have to change the areal polarity as well as direction to receive the alternate one
regards Jeff
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We have switched over today and after doing a first time set up retune all is very good.
//snip//
I think a lot of people have switched over,but there are still areas that haven't......how was the switchover for you?
Our signal comes from the Emley Moor transmitter,which is in West Yorkshire
I think we were one of the first to go over. It was a bit of a nightmare at the time, but the issue here is more to do with conflicting signals from Wales and Winter Hill.
I had to do a retune last week to update some channels and now all Im getting is BBC Wales etc etc. It took me the best part of a whole day last time to manually tune in the correct stations on the TV's.... and its not something Ive yet got around to sorting this time... so for now, everything is coming from Wales again :(
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There needs to be some sort of facility in the tuners to show which transmitters are within range and then, if required, limit which are included in the scan.
But there isn't. :'(
We get signals from several, and it gets worse as our main one (Crystal Palace) will be the last to increase power so others are intruding big-time. None are particularly close apart from a couple of infill ones so we need an aerial amp so pick up all sorts of dross depending on weather conditions.
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I've just retuned mine before the 6 o'clock news. What a breeze. Just set the little box back to manufacturers settings and did an automatic re-tune. All the channels that I use are in correct order, well there is only five.
I am also on the Emley Moor transmitter, I have line of sight of it so a wet piece of string does for an Ariel. I'm only joking techies, I know it's not possible. :D The only thing was I had to change the ratio from 4:3 to 6:3 or what ever it is now.
All done 'till they change it again.
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Good morning, unkyUb :)
We have only one problem. Every evening at 1942 hours, and without fail, the signal breaks up for some 5 seconds across all channels.
Hi TD,
Has it always been exactly 1942, or could the time have gradually changed over the months? I'm just thinking that right now, that could easily be the sort of time at which the street lights are turned on....
Just a thought.
- 7LM
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Hello, 7LM .........the idea of street lamps had crossed my mind at one stage, but the breakup occurs on the nose at 1942...you can set your clock by it. And that is why I will be watching with interest at the end of October clock change....will the breakup stay put or come back an hour.
It is interesting to see that others have a similar experience....albeit in different regions and at different times to me.
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Hi
@Kitz : are both regions using the same polarity ?
Regards Jeff
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Im not quite sure jeff.
I should be in the Granada area served by Winter Hill (http://www.ukfree.tv/txdetail.php?a=SD660144)
but everything always tunes into Moel-Y-Parc (http://www.ukfree.tv/txdetail.php?a=SJ123701).
iirc these were 2 of the very first areas to go live and at the time I spent a looooong time trying to find a solution only to find a heck of a lot of other people in Lancs were also reporting the same problem.... and the only thing I could do was a manual programme in for each and every channel... which if you can imagine takes some time :(
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Ive just been doing a bit of googling and came across this.. which is exactly where I live.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/8417495.stm
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We have only one problem. Every evening at 1942 hours, and without fail, the signal breaks up for some 5 seconds across all channels. There must be a source of interference being switched on/off at that time every day... :( ........and it's not internal or exclusive to me, the whole village experiences the same problem.
It's probably a SEWAGE PUMPING STATION (or similar) passing data over to there main data collection point by radio signal, as you know I worked for the Research department on the railways and we got a call form BR at London saying they where getting lots of complaints near one of there stations on the electric lines and ask use to investigate this interference, we set up a hut with some monitoring equipment in and left it to run 24/7 and yes this interference would come on at 19hrs each day.
We knew it was not railway generated but unless we found the source the public would not be convinced, so I had a walk around the area near the station and found this small building with an aerial on it.
With a bit of detective work back in my office I found out it was a pump for moving the local sewage to the main sewage farm some miles away and at 19hrs each day it transmitted it's daily report to the head office about flow rates etc.
We got on to the London sewage chaps and told them, the next day they repaired the transmitter.
So TD you have got to have a walk around your area and look out for any building with a smaller type aerial on it (sewage, water, gas, electric supplies etc.)as it may be the problem.
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With a bit of detective work back in my office I found out it was a pump for moving the local sewage to the main sewage farm some miles away and at 19hrs each day it transmitted it's daily report to the head office about flow rates etc.
Sure gives another slant on being regular. ;D
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@ tickmike...........have been thinking along the same lines.....and have been doing a bit of sniffing around.
Drawing a straight line from TD Towers to the transmitter we have a distance of some twenty three miles....running in a south westerly direction. Under that line there are three other communities at ( measured from TD Towers) 6 miles, 11 miles and 18 miles.
These villages closer than I to the transmitter also experience the breakup at the same time.......but other communities east/north/due west/due south do not.
The interference then is within the first five miles from the transmitter and affecting only a narrow corridor.
I have no idea at the moment what if any installations are within that defined area.....but I do know that it represents part of the main flight path into Prestwick Airport, and that is where the new Air Traffic Control hub is sited.
Perhaps there is a clue there ........but I would have thought that any interference from their radar/radio etc. would not affect such a localised area.
Will continue investigations.
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We have only one problem. Every evening at 1942 hours, and without fail, the signal breaks up for some 5 seconds across all channels. There must be a source of interference being switched on/off at that time every day... :( ........and it's not internal or exclusive to me, the whole village experiences the same problem.
It's probably a SEWAGE PUMPING STATION (or similar) passing data over to there main data collection point by radio signal, as you know I worked for the Research department on the railways and we got a call form BR at London saying they where getting lots of complaints near one of there stations on the electric lines and ask use to investigate this interference, we set up a hut with some monitoring equipment in and left it to run 24/7 and yes this interference would come on at 19hrs each day.
We knew it was not railway generated but unless we found the source the public would not be convinced, so I had a walk around the area near the station and found this small building with an aerial on it.
With a bit of detective work back in my office I found out it was a pump for moving the local sewage to the main sewage farm some miles away and at 19hrs each day it transmitted it's daily report to the head office about flow rates etc.
We got on to the London sewage chaps and told them, the next day they repaired the transmitter.
So TD you have got to have a walk around your area and look out for any building with a smaller type aerial on it (sewage, water, gas, electric supplies etc.)as it may be the problem.
I hope nobody thinks this is too off topic, but I think any discussion of stray UHF interference would be of interest so..
@tickmike (or anybody), is any above related to the 'back-to-back' aerials pairs, that I've noticed recently, pointing up & down the side of the railway track? I'm not a frequent rail user so I daresay they could've been there for decades, but I've noticed them recently and wondered what they were. From the dimensions, I'd guess they are carrying frequencies of the same order as UHF TV signals.
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... but I suppose that 5 seconds isn't long enough to be any more than a minor irritation.
It can be if watching a movie and a gun is being pointed at someone, then the next thing you see is that person dead on the floor, then much later into the movie you then discover it was not the person you saw pointing the gun that did the shooting but someone else in the room.
1742 (5:42pm)
I suppose on a plus side it could be worse if it was later in the evening.
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... but I suppose that 5 seconds isn't long enough to be any more than a minor irritation.
It can be if watching a movie and a gun is being pointed at someone, then the next thing you see is that person dead on the floor, then much later into the movie you then discover it was not the person you saw pointing the gun that did the shooting but someone else in the room.
I tend to agree that (the wrong) 5 seconds is enough to cause annoyance, well put. :)
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We have only one problem. Every evening at 1942 hours, and without fail, the signal breaks up for some 5 seconds across all channels. There must be a source of interference being switched on/off at that time every day... :( ........and it's not internal or exclusive to me, the whole village experiences the same problem.
It's probably a SEWAGE PUMPING STATION (or similar) passing data over to there main data collection point by radio signal, as you know I worked for the Research department on the railways and we got a call form BR at London saying they where getting lots of complaints near one of there stations on the electric lines and ask use to investigate this interference, we set up a hut with some monitoring equipment in and left it to run 24/7 and yes this interference would come on at 19hrs each day.
We knew it was not railway generated but unless we found the source the public would not be convinced, so I had a walk around the area near the station and found this small building with an aerial on it.
With a bit of detective work back in my office I found out it was a pump for moving the local sewage to the main sewage farm some miles away and at 19hrs each day it transmitted it's daily report to the head office about flow rates etc.
We got on to the London sewage chaps and told them, the next day they repaired the transmitter.
So TD you have got to have a walk around your area and look out for any building with a smaller type aerial on it (sewage, water, gas, electric supplies etc.)as it may be the problem.
I hope nobody thinks this is too off topic, but I think any discussion of stray UHF interference would be of interest so..
@tickmike (or anybody), is any above related to the 'back-to-back' aerials pairs, that I've noticed recently, pointing up & down the side of the railway track? I'm not a frequent rail user so I daresay they could've been there for decades, but I've noticed them recently and wondered what they were. From the dimensions, I'd guess they are carrying frequencies of the same order as UHF TV signals.
PS, on reflection... I didn't mean to suggest that the railway antennas were actually a likely cause of any problems, I was just curious what purpose they served, and whether other (less well-regulated than Railway) applications of similar technology might cause problems.
Just thought I'd clarify! :)
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@ oldfogey
It's 1942 hours, not 1742. :)
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@tickmike (or anybody), is any above related to the 'back-to-back' aerials pairs, that I've noticed recently, pointing up & down the side of the railway track? I'm not a frequent rail user so I daresay they could've been there for decades, but I've noticed them recently and wondered what they were. From the dimensions, I'd guess they are carrying frequencies of the same order as UHF TV signals.
I'm a bit out of touch myself, but I think they are for train driver/guards to base communications and on-board internet ?.
Edit.. I think in tunnels they use a special leaky type of RF cable to do the same job.
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Back to Freeview.
For us it started it started in march and had to re-tune, that went wrong we had to do it about three times, we had another re-tune 17 and 31st Aug then one in Oct. >:D :'(.
Use this trade checker http://www.digitaluk.co.uk/postcodechecker/main/trade
We still are having problems even with a boosted signal >:D, some of the Mux's are ok and others are not.
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I'm really so glad I put in Freesat for us and the in-laws......
When I get bored I retune and check out the "new" channel allocations of Freeview; they change with alarming frequency (ha-ha) and are of course very different between tuners. :'(
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Well this is the big day for me... second phase of switchover, which means HD channels now available.
My main TV system is somewhat exotic to say the least, being based on the open source 'mythtv' project ( www.mythtv.org ). The tuners (three SD and one HD) all reside in a central Linux 'backend' server, then the two HD TVs (lounge & bedroom) get the signals over LAN, delivered by compact diskless 'frontend' boxes. If I ever found an excuse to install more HD TVs, the system can be extended to include them too.
Recorded programmes reside on the central server (the 'backend'), so they can be programmed in on either TV, and are available for watching on either TV. Similarly, other media (photos, music, videos) are instantly available in any room that has a myth frontend with TV.
With mythtv, each tuner can concurrently process up to 5 channels, providing they are all on the same multiplex. That means I can now, in theory, watch or record up to 5 HD channels and up to 15 SD channels concurrently. Disk access speed would probably present a practical limit to the number of channels being recorded, I've not yet explored where that limit would set in. But right now I'm recording 2 HD channels, while tuned to a third in the lounge and another upstairs, and all seems happy. There's only four available for now, anyway.
Feeling quite chuffed right now, the whole project has taken months to put together, it's nice to see it all working in full HD! :graduate:
PS: @HP... if the need arose, I could add a satellite tuner or two to the backend as well, then satellite becomes available on all TVs. 8)
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Very impressive 7LM. I built a MythTV media center a couple of years ago, and its features were great, but it didn't really fit in with my ways, so I didn't keep it. I considered adding satellite to it, but at the time there was no practical way to use a Sky viewing card with it, so it would only receive the free-to-air channels.
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Very impressive 7LM.
IMPRESSIVE ?..... :swoon:
Puts Sky's Multiroom to shame doesn't it !!
I presume 7LM is the only person allowed to touch this creation ?......although you're probably the only person who knows how to operate it more likely ;D
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I presume 7LM is the only person allowed to touch this creation ?......although you're probably the only person who knows how to operate it more likely ;D
Usability is not to bad. The frontends use lirc ( www.lirc.org ), which allows you to find any remote control that has all your favourite buttons on it, and then 'train' the system to recognise it. Thereafter, it all behaves much like any other TV gadget, with some basic and intuitive menus to guide you. But I admit I was both surprised and relieved back in the early summer when Mum was ill and I had to go up North, to find that Other Half not only been able to watch the some stuff I'd already recorded for her benefit, she'd even figured out how to schedule more recordings.
The real problem would arise if it ever broke, and I wasn't around to fix it. Like a few months ago, when a LAN router went a bit ropey. Or supposing the server's disk crashes, then a complete reinstall of Linux would be needed, plus a reinstall and reconfiguration of mythtv... and that's not for the faint hearted. But I've tried to make sure that, in the event I were run over by a bus, all she need do is disconnect all computers and she'd be left with basic, but perfectly functional, conventional TV sets fed from the aerial sockets. :)
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Hmm, things are not as rosy as I first thought, the BBC channels have been degrading badly just after 9pm each evening. That problem started just after the first phase of switchover two weeks ago, then resolved itself after a couple of days. But it's returned with the second phase, and is much worse.
It makes me wonder if they may be tweaking the signal strengths to avoid interference with neighbouring areas. I also can't help wondering if the transmitters may perhaps be set to change power at different times of day, which might explain the phenomenon others have reported of very transient break-ups, at very specific times, as the receiver's gain control mechanisms reacclimatise to the new signal strength. That's just vague a theory of mine, I've found no evidence to support it. :)
Of interest, digital TV employs very similar technology to ADSL, with Reed-Solomon Forward Error Correction, and an interleaved data stream. As long as errors are being corrected all is well but, as soon as uncorrectable errors arise, the picture will start pixelating. That does mean that many people who are receiving a 'perfect' picture may be unaware that there is actually a significant underlying error rate is still taking place, but getting corrected by reed-solomon. Then, if the error rate gets just a little bit worse, some of them will go uncorrected leading to the sudden deterioration from 'perfect' to 'awful'
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On the off chance anybody's still following this thread (?)
FWIW, I may have partially solved my reception problems by fitting an attenuator. The trick was to fit it at the input to the distribution amplifier in the loft, rather than the input to individual TVs and tuners. I suppose it makes sense, the signals from aerial got stronger post DSO, and were enough to swamp the input stages of the distribution amp. I wonder how many people are digging themselves into deeper and deeper holes by following the old school of thought... 'bad reception, need better aerial', when in fact what they need is a 'worse' aerial (or at least an attenuator).
As another note, if you're eagerly awaiting the HD broadcasts, don't hold your breath. Picture quality on true HD broadcasts is very impressive, but much or most of the BBC1 HD is just 'upscaled' which means the picture will be little better than produced by your own TV or PVR, as all recent TVs and recorders already contain quite good upscalers. And worse, all the HD channels have prominent station logos. BBC one, BBC HD and ITV HD logos are very distracting although you do get used to them (a light shade of grey). But channel 4's HD logo is a prominent bright white that rather ruins the viewing experience, for me at least. I just watched a channel 4 HD recording and think their logo may now be permanently etched into my retinas. :(
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Overloading the distribution amplifier is quite a plausible theory, and I wouldn't be surprised if it causes grief for a lot of people. It's also going to be difficult to track during the changeover period, because transmitter power levels are going to be tweaked for the best compromise between signal levels and interference with neighbouring areas.
On the subject of HD, I'm not too surprised about the intrusive logos, because it's being pushed really hard by broadcasters and equipment suppliers, and the logo is a sort of badge for people to display to say they've got it. In many cases the logo will be the only way to know that a broadcast is in HD, because at normal viewing distance on normal size screens the improvement in resolution won't be discernible.