Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => Broadband Technology => Topic started by: renluop on August 17, 2011, 06:41:06 PM

Title: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: renluop on August 17, 2011, 06:41:06 PM
I found this reader comment in PC Pro
Code: [Select]
Exchange based VDSL ?
Another factor is that lines fed directly from the exchange, or from a junction point that isn't a cabinet, won't get service either.
On directly fed lines, would I be right to assume their speeds would be as fast as can already? Or is it another tech issue?

What is a junction point in the current context; one of those little unnumbered cabinets sometimes seen at the edge of estates?

I am interested because the cabinet that Trefor.net said was mine ( before BT Or got awkward) is due for enabling at year end. Certain known numbers on that cabinet have a date and speed estimate, but not those on our little estate, fed from one of the little green boxes.
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: renluop on August 20, 2011, 10:48:05 AM
Another rubbish thread from old Renluop then?! :D
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: roseway on August 20, 2011, 10:52:42 AM
Sorry renluop, I'm sure you're not being ignored deliberately. :)

I'm afraid I don't know anything about the subject.
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: burakkucat on August 20, 2011, 09:33:57 PM
Quote
On directly fed lines, would I be right to assume their speeds would be as fast as can already?

The attainable speed will be due to line attenuation, as is the case with indirectly fed lines. The advantage of a directly fed line is (a) its shortness (b) lesser number of joints throughout its length.

Quote
What is a junction point in the current context; one of those little unnumbered cabinets sometimes seen at the edge of estates?

I very much doubt it. I am not sure what the author of the "PC Pro" article means by the phrase "lines fed . . . from a junction point that isn't a cabinet". Perhaps you could send an e-mail to ask for clarification?

Quote
I am interested because the cabinet that Trefor.net said was mine ( before BT Or got awkward) is due for enabling at year end. Certain known numbers on that cabinet have a date and speed estimate, but not those on our little estate, fed from one of the little green boxes.

I have a copy of the (big) CSV format file that BT Wholesale allowed to slip into public view earlier this year. If you would like to send me a PM with details of your postcode, the PCP cabinet number, through which you believe your line passes, and a Google Map / Street View reference for your "little green box", I will see what information (if any) I can obtain. ;)

Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: Ezzer on August 21, 2011, 06:41:11 PM
I would think if your on an e/o (exchange only) line then the equivalent of a cab for you is in fact the exchange.
Once the lines spider out from the exchange far enough the next stage Is some higher pair cable running out a distance into a cab, then the localised lines to that cab would spider out from there just as the e/o lines did from the exchange.
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: renluop on August 22, 2011, 09:52:09 AM
Hi Ezzer :)
The OP was out of curiosity. I must have feline ancestors from Egypt in pharaoh way times. :D

I am not near the exchange!

@burakkucat

Having other troubles, will get back to you asap
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: renluop on August 30, 2011, 07:56:24 PM

I have a copy of the (big) CSV format file that BT Wholesale allowed to slip into public view earlier this year. If you would like to send me a PM with details of your postcode, the PCP cabinet number, through which you believe your line passes, and a Google Map / Street View reference for your "little green box", I will see what information (if any) I can obtain. ;)
Map attached, showing cabs' locations. PM coming.  :)

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: burakkucat on September 01, 2011, 05:54:37 AM
My apologies for the delayed reply. b*cat spent most of yesterday asleep on his bed. :sleep:

On searching for your postcode in the April copy of the CSV format file, I see the following information --

Quote
SAU_ID          Name          Postcode   SAU_NODE_ID     Exchange   Percent   Uplift   Phase   Deployed   FTTC or FTTP
                                                                                        Only Flag    Lines

STRINGW      RINGWOOD   xxxx xxx   {STRINGW}{p12}          0            100       5.41      6a          Yes            FTTC

The SAU_ID is the ID Code for the exchange.
The SAU_NODE_ID is the ID Code and Number for the PCP.
The Exchange Only Flag signifies if the lines go directly to the exchange. 0 = no, 1 = yes.
The Percent Lines indicates how many lines for the Postcode are connected via the PCP.
The Uplift is for marketing use. A typical user may see, on average, a 5.41 fold increase in download speed.

By use of Google Maps, Street View, and cross referencing what I could see with the map you provided (I've re-uploaded it in a cropped format), I inspected the little green cabinet. Unfortunately I am unable to form an opinion as to its purpose. Could you possibly take a set of pictures (all four sides) when you next are passing it?

I then proceeded to PCP 12 and inspected it. All I could see was that it was a standard PCP of a recent generation. Again, a set of current pictures would be useful to see.

What I could see was things as they were when Google's camera car toured your area and not, of course, as current. :no:

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: renluop on September 01, 2011, 10:35:24 AM
Thanks for that! :) I'll get round to phots idc. The little Xs were thelarge and small cabs locations; now what could "little x" possibly remind me of? ;) some thing to do with bras profiles :-\?.

Is there a link to that csv file, please?  What I am seeing with use of the checker and Royal Mail Postcode Finder is interestingly confusing.
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: burakkucat on September 01, 2011, 06:18:52 PM
I think there is a link to that (now out of date) document somewhere in Google-land but I must warn you that it is around 48 MB in size for the raw data file.

Ah, found this link (http://www.google.com/fusiontables/DataSource?snapid=S193599b0Lx), which might be useful enough for you. :)

Thinking about what I saw with the aid of Google's Steet View, the little green cabinet could be a SCP (a secondary cross-connection cabinet). If that is the case, just consider it as yet another location for joints in your D-side cable . . . and all that implies. ;)
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: waltergmw on September 02, 2011, 09:02:34 AM
Gentlefolk,

I am yet to find anybody with a BT FTTC service from a PCP that is fed through a SCP.
Is there anybody out there who knows they are so connected ?

Kind regards,
Walter
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: renluop on September 03, 2011, 09:06:37 PM
This is the small cabinet I wrote of (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7963.0;attach=4170;image)

I have an increasing suspicion that my road and a number of others to wards the north of the estate are not on PCP12, although on the same 6A roll out, They are those overlaid in pink. Perhaps that is why we are getting the "not available in your area yet" treatment. The engineer who dealt with a battery fault also surprised me with the direction my road was served from

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: renluop on September 06, 2011, 07:07:25 PM
I now reckon that I am not on cab 12. Reasoning is thus.

Both Shaw and Ross Roads from the link provided by Walter are equidistant from the exchange. Given their positions ( see map) I think that unlikely.. Then to the West of Gorley Road is North Poulner Road, in which only the western end is shown as available to FTTC.

Next is shoes on to find that cab. Is it true though that some lines  do not go through a cabinet ( not those direct to exchange)?

Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: burakkucat on September 06, 2011, 07:51:25 PM
Lines that do not pass through a PCP are classed as "Exchange Only" lines.

A line without a cabinet somewhere throughout its length is thus an "Exchange Only" line and cannot, therefore, receive a FTTC service! ::)
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: waltergmw on September 06, 2011, 07:51:41 PM
Hi Renluop,

I'm not aware of any lines missing a PCP unless they are relatively close to the exchange.

I suggest you double check the PCP to Postcodes listing, using the Post Office post code finder to list all post codes that interest you and then search the database for them all.
This is not infallible if either a postcode is listed twice to two PCPs or if there are errors - of which there are many minor ones.

However, except for poor General Disquiet that we know is on a SCP but won't be listed as there's no BT commitment there, I've not come across any SCP line.
It's probably most unlikely, but is there anybody out there who positively knows their line is fed from a SCP AND has FTTC enabled and has a working VDSL service ?

Can RP add anything else ?

Kind regards,
Walter
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: renluop on September 07, 2011, 07:50:14 AM
Quickie! Do the numbers within {} in the SAU NODE ID column refer to the PCP?

If they do then the telephone lines are well in excess of 100, which I think someone remarked was the capacity of the FTTC cab attached to cab 12.

I have a feeling I am going up my luop and getting something wrong :o :D
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: waltergmw on September 07, 2011, 08:39:37 AM
Hi Renluop,

The PCP number has a letter p before it.

Note that BT have two sizes of PCP now, although they started with only the large one.
Around here BT install either 2 or 4 100 pr cables providing a capacity of 100 or 200 FTTC services.

Note also that there are a significant number of errors, particularly when a double entry is necessary where a postcode is shared between two PCPs.

Kind regards,
Walter
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: renluop on September 07, 2011, 09:25:38 AM
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=9600.0;attach=4805)is not mine but the FTTC cab attached to can 12 is externally identical. That would supply how many services?
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: waltergmw on September 07, 2011, 09:57:18 AM
Hi Renluop,

That picture is of the smaller type with a capacity of 100 installed services. You will find pictures of the inside of one here:-

http://www.trefor.net/2011/07/15/fttc-the-inside-scoop-cabinets-as-you-have-never-seen-them-before/

The larger type cabinet can be seen here and has both the BTW and the BT O doors on the front, as opposed to the smaller one with the BT O IDC door on the right hand side.

Kind regards,
Walter

[attachment deleted by admin]
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: asbokid on April 01, 2013, 03:46:55 AM
I am yet to find anybody with a BT FTTC service from a PCP that is fed through a SCP.
Is there anybody out there who knows they are so connected ?

We will be fed through an SCP and a PCP when FTTC rolls into town.

Or will we? !

There is conflicting advice on whether lines served by an SCP and a PCP can receive FTTC services.

See [1] and [2], for example:

Any definitive answers from the forum experts, please?!

cheers, a

[1] http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,96231.msg811487.html#msg811487
[2] http://community.bt.com/t5/Phones/New-phone-line-can-I-ask-to-be-connected-to-specific-cabinet/m-p/513713/highlight/true#M17685
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: c6em on April 01, 2013, 11:02:21 AM

If the FTTC service is supplied from the exisiting PCP then I see no problem as the SCP is merely a glorified joint box.
Joint boxes are where lines are split out from the D side to run up the pole from where there are split to each house (The distribution point). So you could argue that the underground joint box is merely a simple form of above ground SCP in that only one multicore cable is being taken out from the X00pr D-side rather than several running in different directions as per a SCP.

If however someone is suggesting the SCP becomes in effect a PCP and is FTTC'd with its own cabinet then I see all sorts of problems with PSD masks conflicting in the parent PCP and the child SCP.......uggggggggh.  Yeah I can see this might not be a good idea!
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: renluop on April 01, 2013, 08:50:52 PM
An innocent/ ignorant (delete as wished ;))

We have a green box (which IIRC BS said was a pillar)at the edge of my estate, approx mid way from my house and the PCP. Were I to get fibre (for discussion  not intended) the distance from the PCP would mean an estimated speed of 25MB/s only. Theoretically would replacing copper with fibre between the PCP and the pillar be a possible way to increase speeds to those like me are some distance from the PCP and fibre cab?
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: burakkucat on April 02, 2013, 04:31:43 AM
I am yet to find anybody with a BT FTTC service from a PCP that is fed through a SCP.
Is there anybody out there who knows they are so connected ?

We will be fed through an SCP and a PCP when FTTC rolls into town.

Or will we? !

There is conflicting advice on whether lines served by an SCP and a PCP can receive FTTC services.

See [1] and [2], for example:

Any definitive answers from the forum experts, please?!

cheers, a

[1] http://community.plus.net/forum/index.php/topic,96231.msg811487.html#msg811487
[2] http://community.bt.com/t5/Phones/New-phone-line-can-I-ask-to-be-connected-to-specific-cabinet/m-p/513713/highlight/true#M17685

 :hmm:  Hmm . . . Knowing where both you and the telephone exchange that serves you are located, I am suspicious that the SCP (whose photographic image you have sent to The Cattery) is anything to do with your line. I have a peculiar sensation in the whiskers that makes me suspect that you might actually be connected by an EO line.  :-\
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: renluop on April 02, 2013, 08:01:54 AM
BTW pic is att for clarification
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: burakkucat on April 02, 2013, 08:38:43 AM
That's a nice rear view-ish photograph of a cabinet at the junction of Croft Road and Gorley Road, Ringwood, Hampshire.  ::)

Other than that, I don't know what else to say!  :-\

If you were to photograph it from all four sides and then let us see the images, we may be able to give you some idea of its purpose.
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: Black Sheep on April 02, 2013, 03:12:52 PM
An innocent/ ignorant (delete as wished ;))

We have a green box (which IIRC BS said was a pillar)at the edge of my estate, approx mid way from my house and the PCP. Were I to get fibre (for discussion  not intended) the distance from the PCP would mean an estimated speed of 25MB/s only. Theoretically would replacing copper with fibre between the PCP and the pillar be a possible way to increase speeds to those like me are some distance from the PCP and fibre cab?

Hmm ?? Is that me, renluop ?? As in the BS bit ??

Aside from that, I've fit FTTC with 'pillars' involved and the actual fibre connection is done at the Cab, not the pillar. As somebody has stated, the 'pillar' is in fact a glorified joint.
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: renluop on April 02, 2013, 08:10:42 PM
Front as posted long ago  here (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=7963.0;attach=4175)

Not the one that baffles brains, but a wooly one or strong beer ;D

Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: asbokid on April 02, 2013, 09:14:13 PM
Thanks c6em and Black Sheep for the reassurance.

I couldn't see why an SCP should preclude FTTC.  Perhaps there might be crosstalk issues from the unravelling of all the pair twists on the pillars, but not enough to rule out FTTC altogether.

But it is definitely a line served by a PCP.     BT wholesale DSL checker [1] lists it as being served by Cabinet #3, some 800 metres away....

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww2.picturepush.com%2Fphoto%2Fa%2F12576755%2F480%2F2hbline%2Fpcp.640.jpg&hash=5b3ea92accfc65c3991a840b6ab8febe958047e9)
Click for full size (http://picturepush.com/public/12576755)

And the SCP in question, about 100 metres from the pole-based Distribution Point, is labelled 3/2....

(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww3.picturepush.com%2Fphoto%2Fa%2F12576756%2F480%2F2hbline%2Fscp.640.jpg&hash=ab246b4ba112f0263c5b3f1d91d12b77c4166a1f)
Click for full size (http://picturepush.com/public/12576756)

cheers, a

[1] http://www.btwholesale.com/includes/adsl/main.html
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: Black Sheep on April 03, 2013, 09:39:06 AM
Asbo has indeed clarified the situation, by way of those photographs.

The one labelled 3/2 indicates that this is 'Pillar 2' off PCP3. There has to be at least another pillar (3/1) off the same PCP. Round my way, some of the pillars were put underground, rather than overland, as they were relatively left untouched. I think the fact a lot were encapsulated in an asbestos shell, made it a more cost-effective decision to put the 'joint' UG, rather than re-shell them ??

The latter is just my own thoughts. :)

Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: renluop on April 10, 2013, 05:14:16 PM
EO lines; has  this (http://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2012/06/bt-preps-new-uk-superfast-broadband-cabinets-for-exchange-only-lines.html) been picked up before?
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: Black Sheep on April 10, 2013, 08:07:23 PM
If you mean has it been mentioned ?? Yes it has.

There is (to my knowledge) no plans to upgrade EO sites as yet. This is just my thoughts though, and things do change at quite a pace these days ?

If they don't make EO areas fully FTTP, then the only possibility I can envisage, is to pick up the individual cables leaving the Exchange, and find a particular point on that run to cut into that cable and install a Cab of sorts ??
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: asbokid on April 17, 2013, 12:41:29 PM
The NGA Enquiries team at OpenReach  kindly replied to my query about SCPs and FTTC:

Quote

Thank you for your enquiry about fibre broadband. The erection of the fibre cabinets is usually the first task in the upgrade program and it can still be quite some time before the service goes live.

With regards to having service fed via an SCP, it is not usually a problem. However, fibre broadband does have a usable working limit of around 1.5Km, therefore if the distance from the PCP from which connection to the fibre cabinet is made, through the SCP to your premise exceeds 1.5Km you may not be able to order fibre broadband.

In addition, the equipment which monitors lines and assesses line length sometimes does not recognise SCP’s that are in place and, will not return a figure by which the ordering mechanism for fibre broadband can evaluate if your line is capable of supporting the service. If your order gets rejected, you may need to escalate via your service provider.

Regards
NGA Enquiries
Email:-  nga.enquiries@openreach.co.uk|
Web: www.openreach.co.uk
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: Black Sheep on April 17, 2013, 12:46:26 PM
I can fully understand them 'covering their asses' with the "1.5Km" quote, but I would say it's nearer the 2Km mark.  :)
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: burakkucat on April 17, 2013, 07:43:05 PM
Just a quick comment from The Cattery.

Is it a definite fact that the line from Asbo-land actually passes through one of the SCPs? Surely (to me, knowing the EU and exchange locations) the D-side pair runs direct to the PCP?  ???
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: asbokid on April 17, 2013, 08:49:57 PM
The D+E side is ~1600 metres (imperial equivalent: 5280 feet).  D-side is about 750 metres by Google Maps.

Near end (w.r.t. to EU) deflections on TDR are obvious, as is the DSL transceiver in the exchange. There's a blip at ~40 metres (DP on the pole) and a clear deflection at about 150 metres which is close to where the SCP is sited which is what alerted me to it.

The SCP is quite possibly not part of this circuit, but with a D side of 750 metres and some difficult terrain in between, including a river bridge, it seems likely, just because of those geographics, that the circuit does pass through the SCP.

I did once ask Openreach engineers when they were attending to a line fault about the routing through the SCP. But since they knew the fault was on or near the drop wire, they didn't have time to consult infrastructure records for a definitive answer.

I hope the circuit doesn't pass through the SCP, to be honest, since those TDR deflections probably manifest as reflection losses with xDSL, but if it's not the SCP then it's something else on the line that's equally undesirable too!

cheers, a
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: ColinS on April 17, 2013, 09:00:33 PM
Near end (w.r.t. to EU) deflections on TDR are obvious, as is the DSL transceiver in the exchange. There's a blip at ~40 metres (DP on the pole) and a clear deflection at about 150 metres which is close to where the SCP is sited which is what alerted me to it.
I hope the circuit doesn't pass through the SCP, to be honest, since those TDR deflections probably manifest as reflection losses with xDSL, but if it's not the SCP then it's something else on the line that's equally undesirable too!
Could those TDR blips represent a change in cable poundage at those points?  BS would know better than me.  If so there might not be a lot that can be done about it.  However, are you saying that you think there's an unterminated reflecting bridged tap at the SCP (or whatever else is at that point!)?  If so, then I would like to hope that a BS-style xDSL installation would identify that and fix it!   ;D (you can only live in hope!)
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: Black Sheep on April 17, 2013, 09:06:27 PM
Absolutely they could be a poundage change, Colin. I think Asbo was slightly cheated by the other engineers, if they were working on a line fault on his circuit ? The full routing details are given with the task, and most (if not all) engineers will write these details down.

If the guys were working on another EU's fault report, then I-POP (Performance management) is all consuming and I can't blame them for the 'fob off', harsh as that may seem ??  :)
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: asbokid on April 17, 2013, 09:31:17 PM
Yeah, it was work on this line.  A tree branch near the DP had rubbed through the dropwire causing a short.  It's a while ago, but the conversation with the engineer went something like this:  "does the circuit pass through that SCP over there?"  "dunno mate."  "whereabouts is my PCP?"  "god knows mate."   and before you knew it, it was time for tea!  No, i'm teasing: they did a good job, in an awful place - cherry picker in the main road - traffic flow control etc - and found time to chat for a few minutes afterwards, but they couldn't locate either the PCP or the SCP (if it is mine).

cheers, a
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: asbokid on April 17, 2013, 09:40:20 PM
Could those TDR blips represent a change in cable poundage at those points?  BS would know better than me.  If so there might not be a lot that can be done about it.  However, are you saying that you think there's an unterminated reflecting bridged tap at the SCP (or whatever else is at that point!)?  If so, then I would like to hope that a BS-style xDSL installation would identify that and fix it!   ;D (you can only live in hope!)

Yes, blips from the poundage change, or the untwisting of the pairs, changing the LC ratio.  Something to cause an impedance mismatch.  Maybe not a bridged tap, or hopefully not.  Do they exist outside north America where everyone seems to have at least one bridged tap on their line!  Americans, eh?! Tsk!  Always gotta have something that the rest of us can't have!    With the soaring price of copper even one bridge tap is too much for the bean-counters at Openreach!

cheers, a
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: burakkucat on April 17, 2013, 10:05:19 PM
:hmm:  Hmm . . . I would be tempted to connect my oscillator to the pair at the NTE5/A and then visit the suspect SCP to see if I could pick up the audio tone with my whiskers or tail. If the tracing signal was not evident, I would then plod off to the PCP and check there.  ;)
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: asbokid on April 18, 2013, 06:46:03 PM
Hehe.  Before that can be done, we might need a helping hand from Fingers Jenkins, to blow open the SCP door!


(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3059%2F3086896221_780ec35f0e_m.jpg&hash=91486efc67738e0730bb8e0e0ad5ab092d0ec44a)
"Fingers" Jenkins, legendary safe cracker

cheers, a
Title: Re: FTTC: comment in PC Pro
Post by: Chrysalis on May 13, 2013, 07:51:00 AM
If you mean has it been mentioned ?? Yes it has.

There is (to my knowledge) no plans to upgrade EO sites as yet. This is just my thoughts though, and things do change at quite a pace these days ?

If they don't make EO areas fully FTTP, then the only possibility I can envisage, is to pick up the individual cables leaving the Exchange, and find a particular point on that run to cut into that cable and install a Cab of sorts ??

Is actually quite possible, remembering BT want to get rid of exchanges eventually, so EO lines at some point would be moved to somethign else anyway.

My gut guess is either original plan was to FTTP EO lines and may still be the plan.  Or as you said put a new cabinet outside the exchange for FTTC service.