Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ISPs => Topic started by: panomania on October 09, 2007, 08:22:59 PM
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Hi I have a 512k max package with tiscali. Being in the back of beyond and being rite at the end of the exchange i was tol that i may only have have up to a 512k connection (fair enough i thought!!! better than having to go on dial up) and took this out over 18months ago i was getting around the 512k mark up untill the this week and i am now connecting at around 139.00kpbs i contacted tiscali and they did a line check and said this was the maxiumum i was able to get on my line. Now is this BT capping the line or tiscali just being poor!!!! Oh i must mentition that that sometimes i connect around 98.00kbps!!!!!!!
Can anyone tell me what they are doing is fair? and is there any other inexpensive way to get a fast connection (ie cheap satalite broadband)
On contacting tiscali they said to check for spyware and virues on the computer just to make sure nothing was slowing it down my end and all is good on the computer.
Any help or advice would be gratefully recieved
Panomania
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Hiyas
Can you provide us with your line stats (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/frogstats.htm) please -
These will give us quite a lot of information about your line, so that we can advise further. :)
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Not too sure what u need so here is a couple of screenies
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Thanks for providing those.
>> attenuation 70dB
Thats one of the highest attenuation figures Ive seen recorded - you really are on the end of a very long line :(
>> Margin 10dB
You have a little bit of room for manouver there - but it depends on what your target SNR is.
>> Receive Rate 96 Kbps
>> I have a 512k max package
Umm actually Im not sure what product you are on - because according to all the blurb Ive read the lowest max sync speed stated by BT is supposedly 160 kbps, and youre 2 units below that.
If you are on one of the radsl product then I would have perhaps expected it to borrow some of your upstream.
>> over 18months ago i was getting around the 512k mark up untill the this week and i am now connecting at around 139.00kpbs
Hmmm... I'm wondering - have you recently had any notification that Tiscali are making any "upgrades" at your exchange? Theres something I cant quite point my finger at for sure, but because your line doesnt seem to be showing typical BT like behaviour with the figures.. I'm wondering if youve been LLUd - which could well be why your sync has dropped from a fairly stable 512k to something that doesnt fit in the scope of what BT says.
Put your details in the adsl line checker (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adslchecker.php) and look on the righthand side - does it say anything about Tiscali being at your exchange?
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Line Check Results Date: 21:16 - 09 Oct 07
For Telephone No: 0149183****
Postcode: OX10 6DG
Phone & Postcode search OK
BT Exchange Information
Exchange: Wallingford. BT Code: THWL
Location: Egerton Road, OX10 0HL.
ADSL enabled : May 31, 2002
dsl Max enabled: March 31, 2006
SDSL enabled : Not Enabled
21CN due : Q4 2010
Distance:- Direct: 3.92 km
(appx)* By Road: 7.56 km
BT Line Speed Estimation Other Broadband Technology & LLU Providers
Fixed ADSL: 512 kbps (0.5 Mb)
DSL Max : 250 kbps (0.3 Mb)
Important: The above figures are an estimate based on information obtained from the BTw database.
DSLmax speeds are best guess based on the surrounding area and cannot take into effect individual line conditions which may effect the result such as the type of equipment you use or other issues which may affect the Signal to Noise Ratio.
You may also be interested in Max dsl speed calculator
AOL Available
Be* Not available
C&W/Bulldog Not available
Edge Telecom Not available
Homechoice Not available
Lumison Not available
NewNet Not available
Node4 Not available
Orange Not available
Pipex Not available
Smallworld Not available
Sky/Easynet Not available
TalkTalk Available 17.07.07
Tiscali Available 25.07.07
WB Internet Not available
Zen Not available
Cable
Virgin Media Not available
Smallworld Media Not available
Wireless
LTT Broadband Not available
Now Wireless Not available
RAG Test Results
Fixed: 1Mbps and 2Mbps not possible
radsl: Line has over 75dB loss, ADSL unlikely, but will be tested by an engineer on-site
MAX: ADSL Max is available
SDSL: Exchange Not Enabled
TPON: TPON/Fibre not recorded
Check: The check identified another service on your line which may prevent you from ordering a new ADSL connection. Examples are : Existing adsl connection, DACs, LLU, TPON
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
adsl 1 linecode : RAEC
dslmax linecode: REAEGEC
sdsl linecode: 1111RRRRZZZZNNNN
Explanation of RAG codes.
*Distance calculations are provided as a guide only, using information from google maps.
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>> Tiscali Available 25.07.07
I think weve just found out what your problem is - Tiscali "upgraded" ie installed LLU kit in your exchange a couple of months ago.. and they have probably very recently moved your line over to the LLU service.
There are some lines that work well on rate adaptive services - but there are some that dont - particulary the longer lines.
This bit here
Fixed ADSL: 512 kbps (0.5 Mb)
DSL Max : 250 kbps (0.3 Mb)
shows that BT doesnt think your line will perform well on rate adaption and you would be better with a fixed 512 kb connection - which is the max that your line will support. My own ISP and a few others wont put such long lines on a rate adaptive service for the reasons that you are now seeing.
>> On contacting tiscali they said to check for spyware and virues on the computer just to make sure nothing was slowing it down my end and all is good on the computer.
Rubbish Im afraid - those checks will not make any difference to the speed you are syncing to the exchange at.. There are some things you can try and do and thats following the tips on my lowSNR page.
>> Now is this BT capping the line or tiscali just being poor
Looks like this is nothing to do with the BT side of things now - since its looking more and more like you have been LLU'd and its tiscali's kit that has control over your line.
If you can do this Tiscali LLU test (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/llutest.htm) then you know for sure what is causing your problems.
Let me know what the test says please.
(Sorry for so many questions - but Im wanting to make sure of my facts before giving advice.)
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ok i have just done that and now i am at 65.4kbps now they really are taking the biscuit!!!!!!
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Ok the fact that you can log in to that test shows that youve been Tiscali LLU'd.
This is why I couldnt quite tie up the profile speeds and it also explains why recently your speeds have fallen.
You need to contact Tiscali again telling them that the reason why your speeds have suddenly taken a dive is nothing to do with spy/malware etc because they have absolutely no effect on what you sync (connect) to the exchange dslam at. This isnt anything youve done.
Im praying that you get to speak to someone with half a clue how adsl works because you need to advise them that you have performed tests which show that youre now connected with their LLU service and not BT, and that your speeds have only taken a dive since your transfer to the LLU service.
You need to attempt to explain that you are on a very long (60dB) line and such lines dont always perform well on a rate adaptive service.
You have 2 options here... Tiscali have got you by the short and curlies now youre on LLU.
1) You can attempt to insist that Tiscali transfer you back to a BT IPStream fixed line 512k service which worked well for the past 18 months.
- This could be tricky because it isnt something they are likely to want to do since they will have to pay BT £40+VAT to do so.. and it will cost them more each month... therefore they are likely to try delay tactics.
2) You can migrate to an ISP that will provide you with a fixed rate IPStream stream service. This can be tricky since there are only a few ISPs that can deal with inbound from LLU migrations and it may involve a short period of downtime. Off the top of my head I think the list of ISPs that can do this is limited to Zen, Plusnet, IDNet, MAAF and Enta.
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Hi kitz thanks for all your help.
I contacted tiscali like you said. And to cut a long story short. I am taking my line rental over to tiscali for £5 more so saving me £6 from bt and they are upgradiing my broadband to 2mb with expected speeds at around 512kbps.
So for £14.99 a month i am getting my BB back to the original speed and my line rental and free calls at weekends
Richard 1 - Tiscali 0 BT -1 customer
Another victoy to the customer lol
Thanks
Richard
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I think not old lad. I rather think that Tiscali have been "economical with the truth" again.
Your line is WAY too long to support 2Mbps. LLU or aliens from space won't fix that. To put this in perspective - when BT rolled out 512kbps ADSL originally you would have been refused service. Now some lines manage way more than the attenaution figures suggest but I don't think yours is one of those.
I suggest you rethink - there must be a cooling-off period if you are moving the voice component (line rental) to Tiscali. Really.
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well i have been reassured by tiscali so lets see how the switch over goes and then ill let you know!!!!
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I already know what you're going to be saying. Not trying to appear arrogant but Tiscali have led you up the garden path old lad. They do it whenever they can IMHO.
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well i'm not expecting a miracle but i was getting good speeds near 512 and tiscali have told me i will get them again. But ill keep you posted.
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The only thing that may get you faster speeds is if they put you back on the BT Wholesale IPStream 500 RADSL product rather than their LLU, which would mean your SNR margin would be much lower but it might bring you up enough to sync at 512 again...
But really it totally depends what they're going to move you onto. I hope for your sake they take you back off LLU, but I wouldn't be surprised if they don't :(
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If he's agreed to move the line rental to Tiscali I think we can safely assume he's not coming off LLU?
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>> Your line is WAY too long to support 2Mbps
Im afraid he's 100% correct - there is no way on earth that a 70db line with your stats can support a 2Mb connection.
>> The only thing that may get you faster speeds is if they put you back on the BT Wholesale IPStream 500 RADSL product rather than their LLU, which would mean your SNR margin would be much lower but it might bring you up enough to sync at 512 again.
Agreed.
Tiscali llu has several different profiles, but isnt the default Target SNR set higher than on Max?
PS just checked and I notice that tiscali LLU has some fixed rate profiles
2M_256_9db_Fast_fixed 2296 256 Fixed Fast
1M_Fast_Fixed 1146 256 Fixed Fast
512K_Fast_Fixed 574 256 Fixed Fast
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If he's agreed to move the line rental to Tiscali I think we can safely assume he's not coming off LLU?
Oh yeah, duh, of course, that bit didn't register with me - which it normally would!... I blame feeling ill and it being late (well I was starting to fall asleep anyway!)
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dont suppose u've got a cough, cold and temperature?
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Oh yeah, duh, of course, that bit didn't register with me - which it normally would!... I blame feeling ill and it being late (well I was starting to fall asleep anyway!)
No worries. I go into cynical git mode as soon as I hear "Tiscali said..." so I'd notice it where others might not. The really bizarre thing about Tiscali is that its just the UK side of it that's dreadful - then again people in the UK do tend to pile into the cheapest looking deal which drives prices and quality down I guess.
No offence intended to Panomania - it's not something your average punter knows (or should need to frankly). Tiscali UK are not something I would wish on my worst enemy.
Hopefully we're getting towards the end of the "land grab" (AKA buy your rivals out) stage of UK broadband. Credit costs should preclude too many more acquisitions although who knows with Virgin Media (oh and Zen - I still think they'll be bought this year). At that point perhaps the remaining ISPs can start competing on quality, rather than driving down costs. I won't be putting any bets on that though :(
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dont suppose u've got a cough, cold and temperature?
That would be the one :(
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Rizla, I don't think the "land grab" is totally finished yet.. sure it's got to slow down at some point, but there's still a few indy ISPs left out there... not too many, but one or two..
And yes, funny you should say Zen, I was just thinking about that the other day. I'm surprised they've lasted this long. Probably because they charge a bit more than their competitors, and they have the Zen Partner programme, and (I believe) more business accounts than most other ISPs, etc, which are also buying them time.
Whilst I'd love to share your enthusiasm for quality rather than price-based competition... I can't see it happening for a while yet. Mass-market wholesale ADSL2+ should be a great time to start making prices a bit more realistic, but there will always be at least one (or a handful of) smart alec ISP (probably an Enta reseller or something!) who thinks they can make a quick buck by signing loads of people up on an unsustainable deal and then getting out before the brown stuff hits the fan.
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Now you wouldn't be referring to the inappropriately named "Ace Internet" would you? :D The only thing that reassures me about Enta is that Boggits is still there.
Re Zen - once they gave up on any more LLU rollout then that was it as far as I'm concerned. You can't make sensible money on IPStream alone and Zen's webhosting is none too reliable these days (so I'm told). I suspect that Mr Tang thinks that if he's the "last indie standing" he'll get a better price. I don't agree but he's a far more talented businessman than me so who knows. They do have a couple of potential "issues" for buyers though - like their transatlantic pipe. Anyway all you have to do is look at the adslguide Zen forum - its full of people saying "sorry Zen, you've been great but....."
Thread hijack over :P
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>> it's not something your average punter knows (or should need to frankly)
Exactly, and whilst he's having problems its unfair to be fobbed off. Whilst you and I know that there are certain ISPs that do have a reputation of doing this, all we can do really is support him and try and help whilst he's going through this.
The ideal solution would be to get him off LLU and back on a fixed rate IPStream connection, I suspected that they would try something to retain the LLU connection, but must admit I didnt think theyd try taking the phone line too though. :/
One of their fixed rate profiles may work to help stabilise the line - but for sure it wont be the 2Mb one.
If it were my line I'd want out, because reliablity and speed of my connection is important.
But youre right in that the average user shouldnt need to know what goes on behind the scenes and why some ISPs are cheaper than others, all they probably want is a half decent connection at a decent price... which does lead on to the land grab OT conversation :(
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IMHO reliability is everything. No point in 2Mbps if it falls over and resyncs every time a cat passes the house :P
The cold hard facts are that Tiscali are going to continue to take the proverbial until the man knows what "buttons" to press - eg GC22 is a good phrase, as is "unfair contract terms", so is "small claims track" ;)
To Panomania - I have never been "held to term" by any company. There is always a way out of contracts if you are a consumer but PLEASE don't go moving your line rental to them. Really it will limit your options HUGELY as a "return to donor"* is not seamless by any means and if Tiscali have your line then you're only going to be able to get Tiscali.
*this is when you move the line rental back to BT
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I must speak to panomania and see if he ever got the problem resolved.
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Panomania is on exercise up in the arctic circle at the mo, so don't expect to her from him for a few weeks... he hasn't forgotten about this thread. :)
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ty for the update floydy
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Hi All time for an update. And most of all HOT off the press :lol:
Well where do i start lol. I said to u first of all that i was moving my phone line over to tiscali. This has only just happend the order first of all was put through wrong. After being giving dates by customer support saying it was going to be be ready by a date then it wasn't i was just about to give up. I was sent off to the artic circle with the RAF and it all got put on hold. After getting back STILL NOT UPGRADED. In fury i rang up Tiscali customer support in the UK as i wasn't getting anywhere with the call center in TIMBUCKTOO!!!!!!!!!!
Thats when i found out the order was put through wrong. Why are the regular customer support outside of the UK not got this information who know. But i was assured that by the 10th of jan all the work would be compleated.
I was over at my Dads at xmas (FLOYDOID) and he said about getting a router. so i got the speedtouch 580 from dsldepot. When i got it all set up and running my speed got back up to 512 b4 the upgrade happend but with the modem i only getting 256 on a VERY GOOD DAY. Maybe someone could explain to me?
No the upgraded is compleat i'm getting evening and weekend calls and up to 2mb broadband and now getting connected @ 896kbps which is alot better than the 64k i was connecting most days b4 i got the router. and i'm only paying 14.99 a month and nothing to bt so making a saving too.
Well i thought you would like the update
thats all for now
Panomania
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Thanks for reporting back. It's good to see that you've got an improvement. :)
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Thanks for the update panomania - I trust that the UK is a tad warmer than the artic circle :D
>> my speed got back up to 512 b4 the upgrade happend but with the modem i only getting 256 on a VERY GOOD DAY. Maybe someone could explain to me?
Thats good news :)
The information that some routers perform better than others on long lines has been up on my site for a few years now.. way before Maxdsl came in. Its the result of different hardware/chipsets and firmware. There's huge discussions going on atm about certain router chipsets.