Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: srt on June 23, 2011, 11:05:36 AM
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Hi,
New to forum so forgive if this is not right thread for this :-\
Some time ago I was with Sky talk (via BT). I started to get significant drops and re-syncs around March of this year.
After protracted tests + engineer visits + new modem I still had the problem :'(
I decided to go back to BT ??? - - -reasoning I would take up the new "infinity" service which is due for my area (Chester central).
Well since I have been with BT I get the same problems and I have had visits from two engineers - - the last was a "boost" guy who saw there were errors on the line etc but felt it was a "line" issue. I have done the quiet line test numerous times!!) and can hear faint conversations from time to time - - - not every time though.
I also get a failed connection when dialling out ie: dial number and get the dial tone again. This can happen 3 times in 10 and can be recreated on either a cordless or corded phone.
BT are sending another engineer about the phone on Friday after the last one did not turn up as promised :no:
I am advised about the possible charge if no fault is found but have recorded some clips where you can hear the crosstalk but dont know if this is "proof" ???
Anyone have some views/advice how I might proceed and if I am imagining things and wasting my time?
Sorry for the length of this but its driving me nuts :(
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 days, 18:50:21
Downstream: 3.813 Mbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up): 6.3 dB / 15.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 58.0 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 19.2 dBm / 12.6 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 55297 / 84
CRC Events (Down/Up): 769 / 63
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 3279 / 44
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 94103 / 439622
Now its :
ADSL Line Status
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 days, 01:22:23
Downstream: 3.75 Mbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up): 5.0 dB / 15.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 57.9 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 19.2 dBm / 12.7 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 0 / 1
CRC Events (Down/Up): 1003 / 0
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 6593 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 94324 / 439625
Message 82 of 92 (76 Views)
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SRT
Contributor
SRT
Posts: 75
Registered: 11-05-2011
0
Re: Weird stuff with phone and broadband
Options
on 19-06-2011 19h47
ADSL Line Status
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 days, 00:05:22
Downstream: 1.656 Mbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up): 6.5 dB / 15.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 56.9 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 16.6 dBm / 12.6 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 0 / 0
CRC Events (Down/Up): 334 / 0
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 101 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 95356 / 439629
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Forget the earlier stats - wrong info :-[
What about this:
Connection Information
Line state: Disconnected
Data Transmitted/Received (GB): Not available
Downstream: Not available
Upstream: Not available
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: Not available
Latency type: Not available
Noise margin (Down/Up): Not available
Line attenuation (Down/Up): Not available
Output power (Down/Up): Not available
FEC Events (Down/Up): Not available
CRC Events (Down/Up): Not available
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): Not available
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): Not available
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): Not available
HEC Events (Down/Up): Not available
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): Not available
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 days, 00:00:27
Downstream: 1.688 Mbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up): 6.2 dB / 14.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 57.5 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 17.1 dBm / 12.6 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 0 / 0
CRC Events (Down/Up): 117 / 0
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 31 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 95869 / 439732
ADSL Line Status
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 days, 00:02:11
Downstream: 1.688 Mbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up): 6.8 dB / 14.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 57.5 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 17.1 dBm / 12.6 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 0 / 0
CRC Events (Down/Up): 602 / 0
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 137 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 95963 / 439732
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Hi and welcome,
Looking at your stats, there's nothing particularly noteworthy. The output power is a bit low, and that may be associated with the crosstalk. Error seconds are cumulative, so there's not much to be read into those figures, unless you power down the router and start again.
To be certain that the problem is external, you should really take the lid off the NTE/5 master socket (if you have one) and connect the outer to the test socket inside. This will eliminate your household wiring from suspicion.
The symptoms you describe (hearing other people's conversations sometimes, and dialout often failing) certainly suggest a line problem, and I think that the engineer coming on Friday should accept that. A lift and shift (to a different cable pair) might be needed, but you'll only get that after they've tried everything else. You really shouldn't be charged for investigating what definitely seems to be a faulty line.
It may be too late now, but you might have been better off if you had made a complaint about the voice problem (failing to dial out) without mentioning broadband.
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Thanks for the reply.
Well tbh the instances of the broadband crashing back from what was a regular and stable Downstream: 3.813 Mbps to 1600 odd triggered my original complaint.
The sync wont hold for more than a day or so - - noise margin increases to 15 or 16 db then pft:(
Its only after a series of elimination process queries to BT that I am getting the voice line investigated but as I say its not constant.
The router is in the test socket btw.
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The fact that the 3813kbps sync was on Interleave and all the other syncs have been Fast may be contributing to the instability.
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HI
quote noise margin increases to 15 or 16 db then
If that is your DS going from~6 to 15 or 16db this would normally indicate that some very noisy source has just shut down and the line should be more stable that difference of 9db is where your lost synch rate has gone .
can you run Routerstats (http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm) and Graph the SNR margin ?
Regards Jeff
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The cross-talk and failure to dial-out correctly issue . . . crossed-legs of two pairs, possibly.
As Mr Pag will say, there's nothing to be gained by speculation, it needs an OR engineer to resolve the fundamental voice service faults before the broadband service is considered.
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;D ;D ;D @ B*Cat. 100% correct mate.
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;D ;D ;D @ B*Cat. 100% correct mate.
:drink:
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Thanks for the replies :)
I appreciate them as they give me some confidence that I am not going nuts.
I am not able to get routerstats to work with the BT home hub 3 :no:
I will get back when I have had the BTO person round tomorrow.
Many thanks all ;)
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I am advised about the possible charge if no fault is found but have recorded some clips where you can hear the crosstalk but dont know if this is "proof" ???
When the OR engineer arrives, assume that (s)he has not been provided with any of the details. So, whilst a mug of your tea or coffee -- plus biscuit(s) -- is consumed tell her/him the full details and start with the observed voice service faults. Don't forget to play back the recording of the crosstalk.
Please keep us updated with how thing progress.
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The engineer arrived at 8.30.
He advised me that there have been a lot of issues around my area with cables!
He also listened to the recordings I have of the crosstalk and confirmed that crosstalk was there. Though he could not hear it at that time.
I did give him a mug of tea :)
He swapped the D side cable from DP to the cabinet and said that was the best he could do and was not promising anything.
He said it was more likely an exchange problem he mentioned broadband equipment.
Engineer left at 9.30
I have tried making a few calls and the connection failed several times as before!
I think it is safe to assume that the problem still exists if I get failed connections from either my corded or digital phone.
Oddly I get frequent "engaged" number when I try to use the quietline and asked to use ringback ???
I have emailed the results to the guy at BT who is overseeing the problem.
Latest stats:
ADSL Line Status
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 days, 00:21:35
Downstream: 3.563 Mbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up): 6.2 dB / 12.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 57.0 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 18.4 dBm / 12.6 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 0 / 0
CRC Events (Down/Up): 94 / 0
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 37 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 106666 / 439965
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Hi Srt,
If you use an ISP who provides reasonable diagnostic records (such as one beginning with Z) you can ask to see the engineer's visit report.
This will help everyone gather sufficient evidence that your section of the network / exchange is in need of refurbishment.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Hi Walter,
My isp is BT :-\
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Hi again Srt,
Well you could ask. Perhaps also researching how to obtain a MAC might also be a prudent move ?
Kind regards,
Walter
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Hi again Walter :)
Thanks for the input ;)
Unfortunately I am tied to BT and they dont seem to be so forthcoming although I may just ask the BT moderator.
He is acting for BT from their "community forum"!
I just took up with them after being with Sky which was where the situation first showed up back in March.
I left Sky thinking I would at least go for the soonish "infinity" option but the line issue would appear to take presidence over broadband - I think :-\
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. . . the line issue would appear to take presidence over broadband - I think. :-\
Absolutely correct. Until the voice "side" of your service is operating properly, any attempts to improve your broadband connection will be impossible. You must keep up the pressure on your telephony provider, BT retail. Don't even bother mentioning broadband / DSL -- they will only get confused and use it to "pass the buck". BT retail must continue to arrange for OR engineering visits until the telephony service is operating to specification. Currently it is not.
Mr Pag will, I'm sure, be able to tell us the relevant reference codes that the OR engineer should use in the fault log . . .
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"they will only get confused and use it to "pass the buck"
I fear that is what is happening. The engineer said it was really a broadband thing which did not give me much confidence but I could hardly tell him his job as I am not that qualified. :(
tbh the reason he was there was at the request of the BT moderator following my request.
I just hope the BT moderator can assist a bit more :-\
I have this doubt that they truly recognize it as a fault :'(
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I have this doubt that they truly recognize it as a fault :'(
I wonder from what planet "they" originate. Noticeable crosstalk and dial-out failures, which just return you to the dial-tone, are not part of a working telephony service. :no:
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Remember - "ET - phone home" ?
Well it rhymes - the planet that is ::)
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Phew !! Lots going on here.
Firstly, as I always state, 'remote faulting' is virtually impossible as there are way too many parameters for mis-information from all parties.
What I find incredulous is that you say you've had a 'Boost' engineering visit, and he found errors and said it was probably a line fault ?? If this was the case, he has to continue faulting the circuit until he clears the fault condition causing the errors. I fear that the engineers you have had, may be being overly scrutinised under the ridiculous 'Productivity measures' we have to abide by ??. In the same breath, if they carry out the required tests laid down by all ISP's and OR, and they all pass, then they are well within their rights to 'complete' the job and move on. This really is another debate and one we (engineers) are continually at loggerheads with our bosses with, as it actively encourages poor standards.
So back to your issue. A D-side change of pair is what we book as an 82.7P. There is a historic log kept (for a period of time) by OR of all work done on any SP's line. Before ANY of the Broadband Engineering visits are built, each line has to test perfect, ie- electrically fault-free. As B*Cat has mooted, if there was a fault condition detected, then by curing the fault it would normally follow that the broadband speeds/stability would improve.
You say you can hear faint conversations when lifting the receiver on the phone ?? Well, if this is the case then I can assure you when you ring to raise a fault and they carry out the line test, it would return a 'Battery Contact' result of some value between 0-50Vdc. This means your 'positive' wire is in contact with another EU's 'positive' wire (Please, no pedants about -50Vdc etc) and you will be able to hear each others convo's. As you have had Broadband Engineering visits previously, I can draw the conclusion you have got 'Line Tests OK (LTOK) situations at all times.
This leads me to believe that there is an exchange equipment fault on your line, as when the line-test is carried out when you ring to raise a fault, its only testing the 'outgoing' wires from the exchange to your premises in effect, and not going through the exchange equipment (In laymans terms). Therefore it doesn't 'see' the faulty equipment.
As this is a PSTN (Phone) fault, I would be tempted to raise a 'Network Engineering' fault rather than a broadband. When this issue is cleared, then your DSL will improve. Like I say though, this is just my opinion based loosely on the feedback on here. Please give the engineer as much relevant info as you can without getting too complicated. If he's only Network Engineer skilled, ranting on about DSL errors and SNR swings will only make his head boil.
TBH, I would ask if the engineer is 'multi-skilled with ADSL' (the cream of the crop as I can testify to ;)), and if he/she is, then certainly give them all the info.
I hope you get a result pal, and I do sympathise as a 'LTOK' situation is hard to get anything done with.
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razpag - - thanks for the input :)
The only thing I can do and have done up to now is inform the BT moderator who has been assisting.
The faint conversations are not constant. I have done quiet line tests till I am blue in the face and at certain times I can hear the faint conversations and I recorded them.
The line drops calls occassionaly so I have to redial up to four or five times before it connects.
The engineer who visited about the line fault was acting on the request of the BT moderator. The moderator had apparently requested that the card be changed at the exchange and the engineer just laughed and said he was not authorized and could not do that. He also felt it should have been a broadband person dealing with it.
I said that one had been before and he said there were errors - - this is what the BT moderator told me "I’ve contacted the Boost team to check on the engineer report and he has confirmed that although there may be intermittent drops he did not witness these occurring. He has also confirmed the CRC errors but thinks there is a problems with the line as opposed to the broadband connection." ???
So the engineer did do stuff but its clear there are other factors - - he mentioned the pressure they had to clear jobs etc.
I now have to wait for the BT moderator to reply as I told him there are still problems:(
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Quick reply --- he's right, we can't swop exchange cards, they don't belong to us they belong to the SP. They would despatch their own transmission engineer to do such work.
I would ask your 'moderator' to do one of two things, 1'st- ask that a new telephone LIC number be provided, and 2'nd- if the fault is still prevalent then that a 'lift & shift' be done.
There's no point doing it the other way around, as you would just be 'carrying' your faulty (in contact with another number) telephone number onto new DSL ties, and this defeats the object.
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"1'st- ask that a new telephone LIC number be provided"
Excuse my lack of knowledge here but does that mean a new phone number ???
That seems a bit drastic as Ive had this number for some 20 years :-\
The sp would be BT would it not so if thats the case then someone from BT should be able to do that?
Thanks again.
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No mate .... it means transferring your Tel No. onto new equipment (as it appears the original may be faulty). You keep the same number.
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I can now see how you would think I meant asking about a new number. ;D
LIC is the 'concentrator' number that the 'man in the exchange' will run the wires to.
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Thank you for finding the time to post here, RP. With your professional guidance and some persistence by she/he who is allocated for the next OR engineering visit, the OP's problem will eventually be resolved. :)
At a personal level, I always find your posts -- which relate to those aspects of your daily £work -- a useful source of information and, thus, educational. ;D
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That's very kind of you to say B*Cat.
I've always said (even via a PM to Kitz) that this truly is an extremely informative site, with myself having gained lots of info. If I find myself in a position to return that favour, then it's a no-brainer !!!
;D ;D
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razpag - Many thanks for the clarification :)
I will give this a shot with the moderator guy and hope he can come up with the goods :)
Likewise your second option.
Its very helpful to have your assistance and knowledge here and I appreciate your time :)
Just a thought - should BT (being the sp) not be able to do the card change as a mater of course?
Although I dont know how intricate/costly that might be :'(
Again - my thanks :)
Likewise to B*cat et al :)
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Hi srt.
As with faulty DSL exchange cards, faulty PSTN (speech) cards will only be changed as and when the SP deems it neccessary. I can only guess that would be when a certain 'Fault level' on the particular card has been breached ?
Performing a 'LIC change' by your SP is relatively straightforward and painless. It just needs to be co-ordinated so that when BT 'move' your number to the new LIC port, that the jumper-man in the exchange then has a task to re-wire to this new LIC.
As I say, this is only my opinion based on this thread, and I'd be extremely surprised if a desk-bound 'moderator' would request a 'LIC change' sorely on advice gained on a DG. TBH, they probably won't even know what one is and will be going from a script if history dictates ?? ;D . There may be a lot more to your fault than meets the eye, but at the very least you have some information in which to throw in their direction.
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Just a thought . . . perhaps you could have a printout of this thread available for the next OR engineering visit. ::)
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Hi folks,
Just to update.
I have passed on a request to the moderator for their continued assistance and asked about the options that have been raised here. :)
I also asked about the card exchange as the moderator had clearly asked for this to be unfertaken so what went on there I dont know :-\
Anyway I will await the moderators reply and hope for some way to progress.
The printout sounds great - - if I get the option of another visit :(
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Moderator has kicked the situation back to suppliers!
ADSL Line Status
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 days, 01:08:53
Downstream: 2.25 Mbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up): 12.1 dB / 13.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 57.1 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 17.4 dBm / 12.6 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 0 / 0
CRC Events (Down/Up): 105 / 0
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 20 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 108489 / 440025
ADSL Line Status
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 days, 01:29:47
Downstream: 2.25 Mbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up): 6.5 dB / 13.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 57.1 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 17.4 dBm / 12.6 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 0 / 0
CRC Events (Down/Up): 1866 / 0
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 620 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 108604 / 440025
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Another engineer visit now scheduled for Thursday 1.00 - 6.00.
No idea what may be looked at this time :-\
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Answering self :)
OR chap phoned today to say he was changing the "E" side exchange to cabinet.
Not sure why he called today as luckily I was in :)
Originally it was today but was changed - whatever ::)
Anyway I mentioned the LIC thing but he seemed keen to do the E change.
Also mentioned the failed call phenomena and he suggested my phone may be iffy which I said was NOT the case as it occurrs on a corded or digital >:(
Well I did not persue and the changes have now been made so I will test in a wee while.
Last two stats:
ADSL Line Status
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 days, 00:13:47
Downstream: 3.688 Mbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up): 6.0 dB / 13.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 57.0 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 19.0 dBm / 12.6 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 0 / 0
CRC Events (Down/Up): 118 / 5
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 28 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 109860 / 440127
ADSL Line Status
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 days, 00:05:04
Downstream: 3.688 Mbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up): 6.0 dB / 13.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 57.0 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 19.0 dBm / 12.6 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 0 / 0
CRC Events (Down/Up): 88 / 5
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 24 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 109833 / 440127
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Wel I tested dialout and its still failing :(
Also noticed the stats resync a few times :o
Latest shows:
ADSL Line Status
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 days, 00:08:54
Downstream: 3.688 Mbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Fast
Noise margin (Down/Up): 6.1 dB / 14.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 57.0 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 18.7 dBm / 12.6 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 0 / 0
CRC Events (Down/Up): 1079 / 0
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 270 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 110340 / 440128
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Wel I tested dialout and its still failing :(
If you have tested with two different wired telephones via the test socket at the NTE5, then you have proven a failure outside of your domain.
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Wel I tested dialout and its still failing :(
If you have tested with two different wired telephones via the test socket at the NTE5, then you have proven a failure outside of your domain.
Well one of the phones is a siemens digital and the other is my old corded but oddly at one point when I was on the phone to the quiet line the broadband dropped out and the phone disconnected ???
Anyway Ive fed back to the BT moderator mentioning the card change,LIC and lift n shift points again :-\
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Well one of the phones is a siemens digital and the other is my old corded but oddly at one point when I was on the phone to the quiet line the broadband dropped out and the phone disconnected ???
An interesting observation but devoid of all the essential facts. Which telephone was being used for the quiet-line test when the disconnect of both telephony and broadband services occurred? If you say the Siemens digital wireless one . . . :no:
The last wired telephone that I purchased (it's wall mounted in my hall) cost £3.99 in Tesco! I'm sure you could obtain a similar device, also for under £5.00, to ensure that testing has been performed with two different wired devices.
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burakkucat- Point taken :-[
Will look into it and get back in due course :)
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Ok - Ive just ordered a cheap Argos corded phone and will try latter when I get it :)
Incidentally - How "quiet" should the line be when doing a qline test?
I just tried again (using trusty BT duet100) and there are still conversations to be heard although faint :(
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The quiet-line test should sound just like a cat's paws -- silent. :) You should only be aware that the electrical circuit is alive. I can only describe it as a "presence".
Let's perform a thought experiment: You have an ordinary wired telephone, a spare NTE5/A and a fully charged car battery. You firmly attach wires from the NTE5/A to the car battery, the "B-wire" connector to the negative terminal and the "A-wire" connector to the positive terminal. Without plugging the telephone into the NTE5/A, you lift the telephone handset, place it to your ear and listen. Replace the telephone handset. Now plug the telephone into the NTE5/A.. Lift the handset, place it to the same ear as you used moments earlier and listen. The difference you observe is the electrical "presence".
Does that help?
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burakkucat -
Dam near blew my ear off ;D
Seriously Yes it did help.
I got the cheapo phone and just tried dialling out.
With this phone (when the dropped connection window occurs) I find I am unable to get the first digit to get a response and the dial tone is continuous.
Several tries latter I get a connection. Its as if the line is shutdown for those 30/40 seconds or so!
The talking/conversation plus an odd dialing “tika-tika” is either there or not :(
Anyway - - the BT moderator has returned it back to openreach engineers for "detailed diagnostics" ??? He has also mentioned the lift n shift to them.
He has been very supportive tbh and fully sympathises with me. I think he found the fact I was prepaired to fork out a tenner on another phone said something about my being honest but as I said to him "why would I lie?"
thanks again :)
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I got the cheapo phone and just tried dialling out.
With this phone (when the dropped connection window occurs) I find I am unable to get the first digit to get a response and the dial tone is continuous.
Several tries latter I get a connection. Its as if the line is shutdown for those 30/40 seconds or so!
The talking/conversation plus an odd dialing “tika-tika” is either there or not :(
That is very useful information for any visiting OR engineer to know. I'd advise a two pronged approach: (1) ensure your helpful contact enters that information into the report (2) make a note to remember to verbally explain it to the engineer.
Purely speculation on my part but I think there is an intermittent low resistance fault between your pair and an adjacent pair. I just wish there was some way that I could remotely monitor your line! :)
-
Well I got a call from BT this morning regarding the further investigations - Sunday at 9.30 am :silly:
The lady said she had tested the line and it appeared clear so I went on to tell her about the drops in connecting and the faint speech when using quiet line etc :-\
I also told her about buying a new phone in order to "assist" with fathoming out this issue :'(
I also said that when she called me or "tested the line" it knocked my broadband router into re-sync as I was listening to a radio stream at the time and I saw my hh3 blinking away after offline mode >:(
Well that gave her some useful information and she is to look into it further hinting at "exchange" issues.
To be continued ::)
-
Most 'line-tests' are intrusive and WILL knock the router/Hub off when being utilised. This is not a fault.
-
Most 'line-tests' are intrusive and WILL knock the router/Hub off when being utilised. This is not a fault.
Oh :(
Well back to the drawing board - lets hope the OR guys in my neck of the woods are as clued in :-\
-
Oh - - for the love of Pete :-X
Just got this email from the "moderator"
"the engineer report and they confirm that all jumpering and terminations checked in exchange inbound and outbound test calls made BT quiet line all ok no noise present on line. This means that there is no network issue present and if the fault persists its more than likely an issue with your internal set up or wiring."
Ive tried out again and its just as before >:(
I told the BT guy its still the same.
I also asked him if I should be able to hear faint conversations whilst on to quiet line and should my phones be unable to connect to the number I dial for up to 40 or 50 seconds?
Am I wrong about this ???
-
Hi srt,
Patience is a very good virtue !
You'll just have to politely report that their line problem still exists and the fault needs escalation.
Kind regards,
Walter
-
Walter - - thanks for that :)
Yes I just did say ok to another possible engineer visit.
Got the same "there may be a charge" thing but honestly how can just my corded phone plugged into the test socket (no broadband) fail to dial out as repeatedly as it does :no:
Patience is getting thinner though :-X
-
Have you tried this method to get your point across, it's specifically for forum links ?
http://bt.custhelp.com/app/contact_email/c/4950
-
Have you tried this method to get your point across, it's specifically for forum links ?
http://bt.custhelp.com/app/contact_email/c/4950
Hi :)
Yes I have and that is how I have the BT "moderator" involvement ???
TBH. - if it werent for him I think I would have gone nuts by now as I sure would not want to get into phoning the help desk - that is after trying to dial out several times :'(
I am considering putting this to the executive level as it does seem to be going nowhere - though I am not sure that would make any difference either ::)
-
This usually gets BT moving, a letter of complaint to :-
Sir Michael Rake - Chairman,
British Telecommunications plc,
81 Newgate Street,
London EC1A 7AJ.
-
This usually gets BT moving, a letter of complaint to :-
Sir Michael Rake - Chairman,
British Telecommunications plc,
81 Newgate Street,
London EC1A 7AJ.
Or a clear and precisely worded e-mail, with all the pertinent facts, sent to the BT CEO, Ian Livingston, will begin the HLC process -- ian.livingston@bt.com :whip:
-
Thanks for the exec details folks :)
I am going to give this one last try with the moderator/OR people ???
The last reply the moderator made said he was kicking back to Openreach.
I asked him what may cause the failed dial symptom and he mentioned loose wire?
The first BT guy changed the faceplate (front) back on Aprils 12th :'(
No mention has been made of the LIC number change or the lift n shift that was suggested as they all seem to go back to the LOTK thing >:(
Long hot summer I think :wall: :help:
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Ok - - - another BTO visit planned for Thursday.
Same old "charge if my fault" thing.
I asked the BT moderator to confirm that I experiencing "intermittent" but constantly failed diallouts.
I just tried between 12.20 and 12.37 and was able to get 17 failed connections :no:
So I have asked the moderator:
1. Is it acceptable to hear a faint conversation whilst listening to the quiet line?
2. Is it acceptable to experience a failed connection to another number at anytime?
Am I asking too much :-\
-
>> Am I asking too much
No you're not. You've got some sort of fault on your line, and so far OR seem to be unable to pin it down, though not for want of trying as far as I can see. I'm afraid you have to keep on pushing, and if necessary escalating the problem.
It can be very frustrating, I know. :(
-
It can be very frustrating, I know. :(
Amen to that - - ::)
Thanks for the words of comfort :)
-
1. Is it acceptable to hear a faint conversation whilst listening to the quiet line?
2. Is it acceptable to experience a failed connection to another number at anytime?
Am I asking too much :-\
1. No.
2. No, not under the circumstances you describe.
No. :no:
Pure speculation on my part but I think you may be suffering from a "near terminal" (as in "close to death") copper loop fault, that gives varied performance due to (a) weather conditions (b) the phase of the moon (c) the state of "Big Nelly's" laundry from down the road. With one of the pair of the copper loop disconnected / disconnecting / intermittant, the POTS will be inoperative and any ADSL service severely degraded.
Perhaps our "resident expert by profession", Mr Pag, will be able to add a few wise words? ;)
-
LOL@Cat ...... phase of the moon. ;D
There's lots and lots of copper faults out there, the problem is that srt's line is obviouslt testing ok or they would NOT issue any kind of Broadband fault.
Now don't get me wrong, the line test systems they use are pretty low-end, (much like our 'Fast Test' and 'RAT' systems) and will not 'see' low DC voltages, or HR's, or a pair of wires that's in contact with another unused (not live) pair of wires. So, without being on-site I'm proper struggling to give any real clarification ???
I do agree with all the OP's though, srt must continue reporting his line until the fault is cleared. Intermittancy is an engineers worst nightmare, but rest-assured that if there is a fault present (and i'm talking in general here) it will only get worse, as they don't mend themselves. That is what we like ...... lots of audible noise, or no-synch.
-
Well - - again my thanks to you all for your input :blush:
I had an email back from the moderator and he confirmed that the questions I asked of him should all be NO.
I just tried the diallout operation numerous times with my 2 corded phones and they will repeatedly fail to connect after several tries.
I dial - I connect - - I hang up - - I do this several more times and they connect - - I dial again - - then I get a fail - - I dial three more times and get a fail - - I dial again and get a connect and so on and so on ???
I have noticed that when I go to use the phone after its been inactive for a while it nearly always fails on the first try.
My other half seems to think it occurrs more often when she has dialled a long number but I am not convinced of that tbh :-\
Both the corded phones have picked up the faint conversations. I have also heard some dialing over the top and another conversation starts on top of the other one :o
They are all faint though but frequently there are dialing tika taka sounds.
I have recorded conversation as I mentioned earlier but thats on my digital phone.
The only thing that really worries me is this "charge me if its my fault threat" :'(
All I want is a stable line - - - and my broadband holding at a level it used to :fingers:
-
As is always the case srt .... if you are confident, and have proved the line to be faulty in the test socket, then you have nothing to fear in relation to charges.
The only disclaimer I will add to that, is if we find what 'we' regard as obvious damage to our plant. By that, I mean the jealous ex-boyfriend has put an axe through the dropwire, or, (and this happens more than I would like ;D) a cat has marked it's territory on a socket ......... basically, things of that nature.
PS ... have I just commited a great faux-pas by mentioning naughty cats on this site ?? ;D
-
PS ... have I just commited a great faux-pas by mentioning naughty cats on this site ?? ;D
:hmm: :doh: ^-^
-
Ok - OR chap called and he listened to my recording of conversations on QL.
Then he observed my "failed" connections.
Then he tried his equipment and -- - - got the same result ;)
I was begining to doubt my sanity :-[
Well he then went off to check the cab and a littlt while ago he phoned to say he was getting the same fault there :no:
So he said it must be an exchange fault :o
He said he would not need to come back to my house so I guess I just need to await the process :-\
One thing though is that it is genuineftp://
To be continued ----- ::)
-
That is good news. :thumbs:
We await news of a successful conclusion to this issue. :)
-
Ok - OR chap called and he listened to my recording of conversations on QL.
Then he observed my "failed" connections.
Then he tried his equipment and -- - - got the same result ;)
I was begining to doubt my sanity :-[
Well he then went off to check the cab and a littlt while ago he phoned to say he was getting the same fault there :no:
So he said it must be an exchange fault :o
He said he would not need to come back to my house so I guess I just need to await the process :-\
One thing though is that it is genuineftp://
To be continued ----- ::)
Phew !! Lots going on here.
Firstly, as I always state, 'remote faulting' is virtually impossible as there are way too many parameters for mis-information from all parties.
What I find incredulous is that you say you've had a 'Boost' engineering visit, and he found errors and said it was probably a line fault ?? If this was the case, he has to continue faulting the circuit until he clears the fault condition causing the errors. I fear that the engineers you have had, may be being overly scrutinised under the ridiculous 'Productivity measures' we have to abide by ??. In the same breath, if they carry out the required tests laid down by all ISP's and OR, and they all pass, then they are well within their rights to 'complete' the job and move on. This really is another debate and one we (engineers) are continually at loggerheads with our bosses with, as it actively encourages poor standards.
So back to your issue. A D-side change of pair is what we book as an 82.7P. There is a historic log kept (for a period of time) by OR of all work done on any SP's line. Before ANY of the Broadband Engineering visits are built, each line has to test perfect, ie- electrically fault-free. As B*Cat has mooted, if there was a fault condition detected, then by curing the fault it would normally follow that the broadband speeds/stability would improve.
You say you can hear faint conversations when lifting the receiver on the phone ?? Well, if this is the case then I can assure you when you ring to raise a fault and they carry out the line test, it would return a 'Battery Contact' result of some value between 0-50Vdc. This means your 'positive' wire is in contact with another EU's 'positive' wire (Please, no pedants about -50Vdc etc) and you will be able to hear each others convo's. As you have had Broadband Engineering visits previously, I can draw the conclusion you have got 'Line Tests OK (LTOK) situations at all times.
This leads me to believe that there is an exchange equipment fault on your line, as when the line-test is carried out when you ring to raise a fault, its only testing the 'outgoing' wires from the exchange to your premises in effect, and not going through the exchange equipment (In laymans terms). Therefore it doesn't 'see' the faulty equipment.As this is a PSTN (Phone) fault, I would be tempted to raise a 'Network Engineering' fault rather than a broadband. When this issue is cleared, then your DSL will improve. Like I say though, this is just my opinion based loosely on the feedback on here. Please give the engineer as much relevant info as you can without getting too complicated. If he's only Network Engineer skilled, ranting on about DSL errors and SNR swings will only make his head boil.
TBH, I would ask if the engineer is 'multi-skilled with ADSL' (the cream of the crop as I can testify to ), and if he/she is, then certainly give them all the info.
I hope you get a result pal, and I do sympathise as a 'LTOK' situation is hard to get anything done with.
The above posted on 25th June by just listening to what you had to say .......... what a shame it's taken so long for other folk to arrive at the same conclusions. :-X
-
Funny thing is, in my discussion with the engineer before he undertook tests he said that the LIC and lift n shift changes had been implemented :-\
Ive notified the BT moderator and he is watching this space also ::)
-
he he he ........... I love communications companies. ;D Let us know the outcome pal.
-
Well I had a call just a while ago from a chap at the exchange to say he had carried out some work changed me over to another line or some such and how was the broadband?
Previously it was:
ADSL Line Status
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 days, 02:15:20
Downstream: 3.844 Mbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up): 6.2 dB / 15.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 57.0 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 18.9 dBm / 12.6 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 20320 / 1
CRC Events (Down/Up): 133 / 1
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 1178 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 16631 / 250
NOTE I am back on interleaved since this morning ???
Now I have:
ADSL Line Status
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 days, 01:19:49
Downstream: 2.375 Mbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up): 7.1 dB / 12.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 56.6 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 17.8 dBm / 12.6 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 67070 / 147
CRC Events (Down/Up): 72 / 65
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 264 / 48
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 17288 / 381
Well I also told him about the failed connects and he asked me to try that out and he would call back - - did that and STILL disconnects and faint talk on quiet line ???
When he called back I told him and also mentioned about the LIC change. He checked and records showed that had NOT been done ::)
Ok so he said he would do now. Did that and called back but the faults are just the same :(
He appologised for my problem but could only pass on to "special faults" :'(
Oh well - - at least things are being done so I guess it will get solved sometime :-\
To be continued - - - again :cry2:
-
What a sorry saga this is turning out to be. :(
You really need to have OR in-exchange engineering to concentrate on your POTS defects -- the cross-talk and dial-out failures. All broadband issues are irrelevant until the foundations (the POTS copper pair & exchange equipment) are "sound and secure".
-
"Sorry, but it looks as if extra work's needed to fix your fault because we need to work at the exchange. We'll let you know how we're getting on - and you can find out more at www.bt.com/fault "
That was BT email :lol:
According to the website - - - it should be fixed by - - - - Monday 11th - - -err - - ?
Interestingly I have not noticed any crosstalk of late but tbh I have other things to do beside listening to a phone all day ::)
The failed dial outs are still there though :no:
Likewise broadband yoyo of syncs/speed :'(
BT moderator has kicked back to OR - - but you kind of knew that ;D
-
Well since my last post - - I appear to have some mixed better? news.
I have not had any failed connections since this afternoon and I dont appear to hear any talk whilst using quiet line.
However, my sync still seems to be up the creek as it re-set again this afternoon ???
This morning it was:
ADSL Line Status
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 days, 12:11:42
Downstream: 3.094 Mbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up): 10.7 dB / 15.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 56.4 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 18.1 dBm / 12.5 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 3528 / 16
CRC Events (Down/Up): 5 / 0
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 34 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 17534 / 54
Now its:
ADSL Line Status
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 days, 02:51:16
Downstream: 2.094 Mbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up): 14.5 dB / 15.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 56.4 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 17.3 dBm / 12.6 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 177 / 34
CRC Events (Down/Up): 1 / 0
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 1 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 17806 / 5617
-
I have not had any failed connections since this afternoon and I dont appear to hear any talk whilst using quiet line.
That is certainly positive news. :clap:
However, my sync still seems to be up the creek as it re-set again this afternoon ???
As I've said, more than once before, until all POTS issues are resolved satisfactorily to both your CP and yourself do not be concerned about any apparent broadband defects. Once the POTS is deemed satisfactory, then talk to your CP (ISP) with regard to having the "broadband slate for your account wiped clean" and begin a new line training period, as if you are a new broadband customer.
-
then talk to your CP (ISP) with regard to having the "broadband slate for your account wiped clean" and begin a new line training period, as if you are a new broadband customer.
OK - - well the BT moderator had mentioned a while back about me not being on ADSL2 and he could arrange for me to be put on it. He said "I would hope that switching over to the
faster circuit would resolve the dropping connection issue".
At that time of course I still had the line issues so maybe I should seek this change now then :hmm:
-
It would certainly be worth your while to keep in (daily) contact with that helpful forum moderator -- a progress report on the POTS line behaviour and then, when you are both convinced that the original underlying problems are definitely resolved, a tweak & test (one step at a time) of the broadband service.
Without tempting fate, I think you are "nearly there" . . . ;)
For interest, please enter your telephone number and postcode into Kitz' ADSL Line and Exchange Checker (http://kitz.co.uk/adsl/adslchecker.php) and then let us know of the first four lines returned under the heading "Exchange Information".
-
@ srt,
It might however be worth reading this article re ADSL2+. perhaps your BT moderator should also read it?
http://support.zen.co.uk/kb/KnowledgebaseArticle.aspx?ArticleID=11125
Kind regards,
Walter
-
Thanks for the replies folks :)
Funnily I got another OR visit today (unexpected) and he seemed unaware of the exchange input ::)
He checked over and felt it seemed ok so I guess thats it for now.
My BT moderator has been in touch and I have advised him of the current circumstances. He will observe the connection also and he has noted that the snr is high at - - just now 15db :(
He feels it needs to be around 9/10 so will aim to reset when the training period is past (10 days) subject to it being stable of course :)
The points about ADSL2+ are very interesting and it would seem fruitless to press for it I guess.
I still hope for the "infinity" option - - - but I see that has now been pushed back to around the end of December 2011 :(
Maybe a Christmas present :hmm:
Heres the exchange info:
Exchange: Chester Central BT Code: WNCSC
Location: St John Street, CH1 1DD
Distance:- Direct: 1.68 km
(appx)* By Road: 2.41 km
Status
ADSL enabled: May 31, 2001
DSL Max enabled: March 31, 2006
SDSL enabled : Enabled
21CN due : (PSTN) N/A
21CN WBC (Broadband) Enabled
Broadband Access Market Broadband Access† Market 3
More than four lines - - sorry ???
I will keep posted on "getting there" ;)
-
Looking at your current line stats., I don't think you'll gain anything from a migration to ADSL2+.
Although my LLU'd line is connected to 21CN equipment and I can use ADSL2+, I have far better performance and line stability by setting my modem to use G.Dmt modulation (ADSL).
My exchange info:
Exchange: Bury St Edmunds BT Code: EABSE
Location: Whiting St, IP33 1NS
Distance:- Direct: 1.8 km
(appx)* By Road: 2.41 km
Status
ADSL enabled: June 30, 2001
DSL Max enabled: March 31, 2006
SDSL enabled : Enabled
21CN due : (PSTN) N/A
21CN WBC (Broadband) Enabled
Broadband Access Market Broadband Access† Market 3
Notice that we have very similar approximate distances (to one decimal place). I currently achieve sync at 3808 Kbps with an attenuation of 51.5 dB.
-
Hmmm! Just tried quiet line and heard some faint voice and static blips :'(
Earlier I had a bunch of resyncs and had just advised my BT mod.
Ughh - at least the dialout drops not re-emerged :-\
BTW - I noticed very low db noise margin on the "up side" of just 7db.
Never had that before - but now its back up to 14db and that almost never changes.
???
-
:hmm: Hmm, indeed. The b*cat is at a loss for words to type, as a result of your latest news. :(
-
I am lost for words also :'(
Well not quite :) I got a call from BT woman around 6.00 last night asking about the faults and I did mention the bit of talk I could hear. She thought she heard a bit of a static burst whilst speaking to me but I am not sure.
Whatever she feels there are still some issues. I really wonder though if its worth having an engineer back to listen to what will prolly be a quiet line! Its really intermitent so the chances of it occurring whilst engineers here are remote :-\
Thing is my broadband is still unstable so what else would cause that?
If the broadband is constantly erroring and resyncing that is a fault - isnt it :-X
-
Ive had another thought ::)
Would it be worth my buying a BT business hub?
I see a new one on Amazon is around £35.
At least then I could set up router stats programme?
Just a thought as I dont see me getting anywhere with engineer visit for voice line issue.
Its affecting my sanity tbh :'(
-
Hi SRT,
You also have the quite useful 2700 HGV internal diagnostics and comprehensive logs - if you can fathom out what they are telling you.
One small caution is that they seem to excel on very long, high attenuation, lines but not always on shorter ones.
I seem to remember Kitz herself says she doesn't get much benefit at all. (I think now she's using an incompatible service anyway.)
I would still follow the previous advice that the crosstalk needs to be completely cured before investing much effort in broadband aspects.
However the 2700 HGV diagnostics page does give precise time-stamped re-syncs, which many of the ISPs can't necessarily see. These might help demonstrate the fault times more accurately.
If you have a smartphone or other high quality recording device, perhaps you could invent a way of making good audio recordings for the BT engineer as well?
Kind regards,
Walter
-
Would it be worth my buying a BT business hub?
I see a new one on Amazon is around £35.
It certainly would be worth investing some money in one. I purchased mine via eBay, brand new, in a factory sealed box, for ~ £30. But you can pick up a good quality used one from eBay for anything in the range of £0.99 to £5 (plus delivery charge).
Defective, intermittent or otherwise not-to-spec POTS will result in a poor or effectively non-existent broadband service. By all means let off steam here and we will help you to keep hold of your sanity. There is no defect your side of the NTE5/A but there is still an intermittent problem with the POTS service. Therefore you should keep up the pressure on your telephony provider to have the fault fixed. The charge to you will be zero. Keep smiling. :)
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Hi and thanks for the words of comfort :)
Well I seem not to hear anything of note on "QL" since my last post :-\
I am still having issues with my sync and noise margin though :'(
In my wisdom I have just increased my package to option 3 unlimited as my other daughter has "returned" home putting my broadband service under greater pressure!
So its costing me more now for the same c***p connection :'(
The BT mod chaps thought the new hub was not really going to solve the issue but it couldnt hurt!
Meantime - - if I continue with this poor/flakey broadband am I entitled to get the broadband engineers to continue to with their rectification attempts?
If they (broadband) keep saying its a line fault (what else could it be?) and the voice/line people say it testing fine what are my options? ???
-
If they (broadband) keep saying its a line fault (what else could it be?) and the voice/line people say it testing fine what are my options? ???
If you have really reached an impasse, with the POTS engineers saying the line is fine and the broadband CS team saying it has to be a line fault, then the only other thing I could suggest you do is to sit down and compose a comprehensive, detailed e-mail message and send it to the "big chief's" office [1]. You will then be contacted within 24 hours by a member of his senior managerial team and the HLC [2] process begun. I would only advise that approach if every other route has ended in failure.
-----------------------------
[1] ian.livingston*bt.com
[2] High Level Complaint
-
Well it appears that its still wonky :'(
I await the BT moderators reply to me :-\
ADSL Line Status
Connection Information
Line state: Connected
Connection time: 0 days, 06:39:12
Downstream: 1.906 Mbps
Upstream: 448 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI: 0/38
Type: PPPoA
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Latency type: Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up): 16.7 dB / 13.0 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up): 56.3 dB / 31.5 dB
Output power (Down/Up): 16.8 dBm / 12.7 dBm
FEC Events (Down/Up): 299 / 28
CRC Events (Down/Up): 8 / 8
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
HEC Events (Down/Up): 11 / 7
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 18625 / 6380
-
For no other reason than that we have similar line lengths, here are my statistics. From the CLI --
/ # adsl channel
Current trained adsl path : Interleaved
Downstream Bit Rate : 4512000 bps
Upstream Bit Rate : 928000 bps
/ # adsl defects
============== NEAR END =============
ES (Count of errored seconds): 0
SES (Count of Severely errored seconds): 0
LOS (Count of Loss of signal): 0
============== FAR END ==============
ES (Count of errored seconds): 0
SES (Count of Severely errored seconds): 0
LOS (Count of Loss of signal): 0
/ # adsl margin
Downstream Noise Margin : 6.0 dB
Downstream Attenuation : 51.0 dB
Downstream Power : 18.7 dBm
Upstream Noise Margin : 7 dB
Upstream Attenuation : 29.0 dB
Upstream Power : 12.4 dBm
/ # adsl opmode
Current trained adsl mode : G.Dmt
/ # adsl perf
============= NEAR END ===========
FEC : 57589
CRC : 0
HEC : 2543
============= FAR END ============
FEC : 64
CRC : 0
HEC : 4
/ # adsl version
Version : 1.12
DriverVersion : 1.75
APIVersion : GS_API_652
FirmwareVersion : E.25.41.64 A
DspVersion : 0x000000e1
/ #
From the GUI --
System Up Time 16 days 16:49:31
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 552970 801845 0 928 6195 1 day 21:59:23
LAN 100M/Full 3959189 2812362 0 497 577 16 days 16:49:10
WLAN -- -- -- -- -- -- --
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 4512 kbps 928 kbps
Line Attenuation 51.0 db 29.0 db
Noise Margin 6.0 db 7.0 db
From the latter, you can see that the DG834G has been powered-up for 16+ days and I have had the last random disconnect/reconnect event nearly two days ago.
-
I now have adead voice line - since 9.25 am :no:
Previously I was listening to some faint chatter on quiet line!
Which I recorded ::)
-
I now have a dead voice line - since 9.25 am :no:
Previously I was listening to some faint chatter on quiet line!
Which I recorded ::)
That dead (voice) line could be a good thing. It is a comprehensive indicator of defective POTS infrastructure. Some questions:
(1) When POTS died, did the broadband connection also fail?
(2) If yes to (1), is broadband now back?
(3) If yes to (1) and no to (2), then how are you making contact here?
(4) If yes to (1) and yes to (2), is POTS now back?
My understanding is that POTS requires a pair with complete continuity to operate -- ranging from a pair of copper conductors down to a pair of damp strings! ::) However broadband will operate, in a degraded state, with just continuity in one copper conductor but not with a pair of damp strings. :no:
-
Just to update :)
I have sent an email to the exec people and have a response with an ELC case number :o
The disconnects have been someting to do with BT exchange repair attempts I think.
My broadband has been unaffected - aside from the sync issues and the ironical loss off connect just as I was about to post this >:(
Line testing I guess.
I have had regular disconnections from voice line all day yesterday and this morning too.
The jist of my complaint is that I am not interested in which branch of BT is responsible for my broadband fault - POTS or broadband - just the get the ******** thing working as it should!
As I now pay a premium for "unlimited" its the least I should expect :-\
Will keep you posted- if I can ::)
-
Something has been done!
My failed dial outs are back ???
I also got the standard email from BT saying my problem should be fixed >:(
Ive sent another email to the "new" BT exec guy who is working on my case.
Patience is a virtue? A miracle more like :wall:
-
My failed dial outs are back ???
:swoon:
Keep --
(1) Logging the defects, date, time and, if possible, duration. :comp:
(2) Reporting daily to the ELC (HLC) assignee. :whip:
(3) Smiling. :)
-
Another engineer visit planned for this Saturday :(
I spoke to the BT ELC guy today. Seemed nice enough and said he would not close case until its resolved :-\
Well I wont hold my breath but he said its all noted by OR and its a bit back to the begining :'(
Well I will try to keep from screaming but fully expect the OR visit will end up with them saying - - - its probably at the exchange ::)
I was trying to cut back on the booze but I dont think its the right time just yet ;)
-
ACK.
I was trying to cut back on the booze but I dont think its the right time just yet ;)
As long as you leave some for my bowl . . . :drink:
-
Saturday morning.
Openreach engineer phoned to advise of work being undertaken.
I discussed with him and he said he was starting from scratch.
He phoned again latter to leave message that the problem concerning failed dialouts appears to be at the exchange but as nobody is there today he can only return to the job on Monday ::)
Incidentally- I have a BT business hub on its way to me :)
Is it a straightforward replacement for my HH3?
What I mean is will the log on info for my HH3 work with the business hub or will that be different?
Its a "brand new unused" business hub btw :)
-
"This leads me to believe that there is an exchange equipment fault on your line, as when the line-test is carried out when you ring to raise a fault, its only testing the 'outgoing' wires from the exchange to your premises in effect, and not going through the exchange equipment (In laymans terms). Therefore it doesn't 'see' the faulty equipment"
Posted nearly one full month ago. Fingers crossed you get the result needed on Monday.
-
"Posted nearly one full month ago" - - - - Dont I know it :)
Funny thing is tho - - this dial out failure appeared to be cured just a week ago and now its been re-introduced ???
OR do say things were changed at the exchange but I dont have the full details :no:
I just hope this OR chap follows through all the way to determining whats screwing up the broadband as tbh thats my biggest gripe.
Mind you having the phone fail to dial out isnt top of my list either :mad:
-
With bt broadband, and with a 2-wire router, the router should pick up the log on info so it will connect to the isp automaticaly shortly after dsl sync. Just takes a minute or two longer the first time over a normal connection.
If there is one disadvantage with the 2 wire, the excelent ventelation does leave it it a tad more venerable to 'spillages'. Might be something to bear in mind with small children around.
-
What I mean is will the log on info for my HH3 work with the business hub or will that be different?
As Ezzer has mentioned, above, there should be no problem or adjustments necessary for a BT Broadband service.
-
Well there were NO problems setting it up :)
Thanks Ezzer/burakkucat :)
All I need to do now is set up the routerstats and I should be "good to go" :fingers:
-
err - - -setup of routerstats - - -can anyone hold my hand on this :-[
Ive got the url page entered ok - I think - - - at least when I click on it it shows the detail that my hub has but what about login and password stuff?
-
The login/password section requires you to enter the same details as you enter to use the router's web interface. Most routers require a login to read any data, so you need to check the login box as well (the BT 2700HG-V doesn't require a login, so you leave this section blank for that router).
-
Hi Roseway,
Sorry but I have a BT 2701 HGV -C Gateway.
I have the url correct as it shows up in the router stats page tab so do I tick the login box and leave everything else blank?
I have that setting at present and the reading is just "flatline" ???
Sorry to be so dumb :-[
-
Sorry, I wasn't entirely clear in what I said. If you don't have to enter a password to access the router stats page, then you shouldn't tick the login box.
-
Hmm - - I tried not ticking box so I only have the url which shows the correct info on the routerstats tab but I still just get a flat line :no:
I also dont have logout set. Details on the internet details page of the router gives a username and there is also a hub password.
I have not set these myself as the router just worked straight from the box.
Maybe this BT 2701 HGV -C Gateway router requires a login?
-
The login/password combination, in general, that may be required for routerstats to operate correctly is that required to be entered to access the particular router's statistics page.
So, using myself as an example, when I wish to collect some information and plot the graphs relating to my Netgear DG834Gv5, I need to enter the login id admin and the password that I assigned with it.
I also own a 2Wire 2700HGV and know that the statistics are accessible without entering a login/password pair. I have never used routerstats with it and so am uncertain about the configuration. However, if I remember correctly, to access the entire administration area of the 2700HGV, I needed to enter the default password and then promptly set my own password. So, is that the same for the 2701-C? To see if that is so, enter 192.168.1.254 into you webrowser's address bar and see if it takes you to the router's first GUI screen. Is there a login tab or button? If so, take it. You will probably need to insert the default password -- possibly the modem/router's serial number or some other string printed on the outside of the box it came in. Once done, you may well be instructed to change that password to a string of your own creation and then save it. Do so.
Now go back to the routerstats page, enter any string for the login (e.g. "2Wire") and your password for the password.
If you still have problems (and if Walter, Eric, Kitz, . . . haven't come up with a good suggestion), I will see what information I might have stored away for a 2701-C.
-
Thanks for that burakkucat/roseway ;)
Well not wanting to hijack the thread about routerstats - - -I think I may have finally got some way forward ::)
At least I have something reading and showing some stats so hopefully it will identify some points of interest ???
I am leaving the "user defined" bit and just going with the noise margin and sync speed settings :)
There are a LOT of details in routerstats that I cant comprhend but will keep RTFM :D
Aside from all that I still await OR to do something but as yet nothing to report :-\
-
Ok - - strange thing happened around 3.30pm.
The routerstats shows sync and noise dropped out ???
I looked at the router and the internet light was red but broadband green ???
Re-powered and its ok.
Previously it was ticking along at a solid 9.0db noise and 3210kbps sync.
Maybe it was someone at the exchange doing stuff?
Well it wasnt the dial out problem sorted thats for sure >:(
Interestingly the red and green light thing happened yesterday too but I was just setting up stuff and thought that might have been me :blush:
I had to re-power then too.
I will need to investigate how to record the history of stats - - but I have got lots of other things to do around the house - - so my other half says ::)
-
Routerstats is a very comprehensive and powerful package. As I do not own, nor use, any computer with the Redmond OS, I have to execute it under the Windoze Enviroment provided by running the wine service. So, to simplify matters, I just use routerstats lite (sic).
If you would care to send me a PM with your e-mail address, I will be willing to send you what documents I have on the 2Wire 2701.
I looked at the router and the internet light was red but broadband green ???
That was telling you, quite clearly, that someone was working on the equipment concerned with your access to the Internet. Not the broadband service not the underlying POTS service.
-
Thanks burakkucat - pm sent :)
btw- If the red light internet disconnections are to do with some BT work - what is preventing the router from re-connecting? - it happened again around 7.00pm :'(
My little quick start book for the router mentions being on ppoe - but I am on ppoa ???
Maybe I should change it?
I think I just may go back to the Home hub 3 for the time being - although I do much preferr the business hubs comprehensive detail etc :(
Thanks again :)
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btw- If the red light internet disconnections are to do with some BT work - what is preventing the router from re-connecting? - it happened again around 7.00pm :'(
It should do, "automagically". Just occasionally, I suffer the same "happening" with my CP. The first I know of it is when I have trouble connecting to a website (for example). On checking my DG834Gv5, I see the Internet light is red but the DSL sync light is green. If I check the telephone, it is electrically live but it has no service available (no "dial" tone). All I do is utter a few (cat) curses and wait.
My little quick start book for the router mentions being on ppoe - but I am on ppoa ???
Don't worry about that setting, as far as I recall everybody currently uses PPPoA and the modem/router is working for you.
I think I just may go back to the Home hub 3 for the time being
Why? ???
-
burakkucat- Thanks for the very useful info :)
My only reason for possibly reverting to hh3 is that it did at least retain connnection ie: not lose internet as the 2wire 2701 has recently done.
OTH - the 2wire 2701 does seem to hold the noise margin at a steady 9db and a more consistent attenuation of 56.1db :)
I dont see any marked fluctuations in routerstats, with the graph running steady at all times.
Makes me wonder if I have it set up correctly as I did expect to see "more" activity :o
Some people are never happy ::)
I hope to get some feedback today from the BT managers rep about progress - or not :-\
-
Well my "feedback" was that there is a planned "lift n shift" is to be done at the exchange :-\
I was of course under the impression this had been done before and it may be the case I guess but mine is not to reason why ::)
I did mention the previous lift n shift to the management person so I dont know what he will make of it ???
I also got a "stock type" email from BT saying they think they have found the fault and will be doing stuff on 29th ???
Incidentally I have had a few more lost internet connections that I mentioned earlier.
The routerstats graph showed them of course but they also showed a "dip" in noise to 8db and a recovery from a dipped sync also. That makes me think that the lost connections seem to do with some bad noise on the line that was sustained wheras the othertime it was retained?
-
First loss of internet (red light) showed below and it took two attempts to re-power router ???
Collected for 21:26:55
Since Current Current Time Since
Reset 24-hr int. 15-min int. Last Event
ATM
Last Event
Cell Header Errors 94873 94873 42031 0:00:00
Loss of cell Delineation 94477 94477 42031 0:00:00
DSL
Link Retrains: 0 0 0 0:00:00
DSL Training Errors: 1 1 0 21:26:40
Training Timeouts: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Framing Failures: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Signal Failures: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Power Failures: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Margin Failures: 1556 1556 714 0:00:00
Cum. Seconds w/Errors: 1637 1637 714 0:00:00
Cum. Sec. w/Severe Errors: 1612 1612 714 0:00:00
Corrected Blocks: 96706 96706 42031 0:00:00
Uncorrectable Blocks: 94544 94544 41868 0:00:00
DSL Unavailable Seconds: 28 28 0 21:26:26
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Well my "feedback" was that there is a planned "lift n shift" is to be done at the exchange :-\
That is "encouraging" news and it helps to maintain an open communication channel between the ISP representative & yourself. ;)
The routerstats graph showed them of course but they also showed a "dip" in noise to 8db and a recovery from a dipped sync also. That makes me think that the lost connections seem to do with some bad noise on the line that was sustained wheras the othertime it was retained?
Yes, that certainly could be a possibility.
First loss of internet (red light) showed below and it took two attempts to re-power router ???
Please remember that the service may have been lost due to an event upstream of yourself and remote of your "modem-line-DSLAM" link, so when you first power cycled the modem/router there was no effect but the service was back by the time you performed the second power cycle -- hence it may have seemed that you "fixed" the issue with the two power cycles. Personally, I would have noted the time when the red light first appeared and then left your equipment "well alone" to see if it transitioned back to green, subsequently noting the time when that event occurred.
As for an analysis of your recent statistics, I'll leave that to others (Eric, Walter, etc) to comment.
-
Hi
When you say you lost connection ,do you mean lost SYNCH or Lost PPoA.
The former (loss of synch to the exchange ) will of course drop the SNR margin to Zero and rarely come back to its original value . That is because during the resynch negotiations it will resynch using the Target SNR ,sometimes this results in a different synch rate depending on the difference between the SNR margin when it went down and the actual Target SNR margin.
Loss of PPoA(connection to your ISP) on the other hand does NOT affect the SNR margin or the Synch rate as these are negotiated locally with your exchange .Most times PPoA losses are outside your control.
Regards Jeff
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Great point Jeff. We sometimes come across this 'cross-purposes' situation in the field. We (OR engineers) will always regard a loss of connection to mean a drop in synch, whereas upon chatting to the EU's they will say that the DSL light always stays on, they just can't access web pages etc etc.. They too see this as a loss of connection.
As you point out Jeff, two different animals.
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Jeffbb-well I guess the loss was just the red light internet-the broadband was still reading green.
I saw the router info showing dsl connected and internet unconnected.
Not sure that answers your query :-[
What I have noticed with this new router is that the noise margin is very constant at 9db
Uncanny considering the highs and lows I had earlier ie: 6 db creeping to 17 db.
The other routers have always regained connection tho so I dont quite understand this new trend with the business hub ???
burrakkukat- I will try to keep an eye on time etc if it drops out again.
Thanks for the pointers guys :)
Still on a steep learning curve here :blush:
My failed dial out seems to have gone - at the moment :-\
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Not going to take over Jeff/B*Cats diagnosis much more than to say that your loss of connection is on the PPP session, not the broadband connection.
This issue is between you and your SP. If the Broadband/DSL light is on (there's different colours for different routers) and not 'flashing', then it's extremely unlikely to be an Openreach issue. Ring your SP and request they look into your RRT (Repair Retrospective Tool) to show drops in actual synch (if any) and comapre it to the Radius Log which shows actual 'log-ins' through their server. Depending on their level of knowledge, it should become pretty apparent your circuit either needs a 're-boot' or 're-build', or even a 'Lift & Shift' ????
Sorry to butt in chaps. Back to you. :-X
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razpag- the lift n shift is planned according to BT and the exchange. :sleep:
My isp is BT so maybe they a shiffting things around at the exchange?
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razpag- the lift n shift is planned according to BT and the exchange. :sleep:
My isp is BT so maybe they a shiffting things around at the exchange?
Whoops, sorry. Only read Jeff's last response, should have read the whole thread again.
Doesn't matter who your ISP is, the process is exactly the same for all 'Lift & Shifts'. The job will either be issued directly to the Openreach Exchange staff to perform, or (God forbid) back out to the Openreach Field Engineers as an SFI/Boost job.
If it's the latter, a lot of the time the appropriate notes requesting a 'Lift & Shift' may not be visible on the laptop to the Field Engineer, and he could innocently turn up on your doorstep not knowing the history behind your problem. If that's the case, please be patient and point him in the right direction. :-[
If it's the former, I would hope the Exchange Engineer will ring you once the work is completed.
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If it's the latter, a lot of the time the appropriate notes requesting a 'Lift & Shift' may not be visible on the laptop to the Field Engineer, and he could innocently turn up on your doorstep not knowing the history behind your problem. If that's the case, please be patient and point him in the right direction. :-[
If the above scenario does come to pass, the best thing would be to show the engineer this thread -- ensuring that a mug of tea or coffee and biscuits are to hand, whilst it is being read. :)
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razpag- I kind of think its to be dealt with via the exchange as that is the impression I got from the BT management guy. Strangely tho - I was told this procedure had been done a while back - nobody phoned me tho but tbh nothing surprises me in this saga :-\
b*kat - We do have jaffa cakes but no biscuits :)
TBC ???
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Well my line was off for around 1 hour this morning and I also had a visit from OR :)
The chap said he was not aware of the lift n shift but that would be done at exchange.
He advised me he had changed the DP (again?) and came in to test line. He also changed the faceplate front (again?).
He did a test and it was ok :-\
He was not really too cheerful and seemed in a rush so no Jaffa cke or coffee :D
Well tbh -I have been here before so I wont really know until things have been monitored awhile. The BT management guy said he will get back to me on Tuesday. I just took this reading from router - -dont know what to make of it tho although I noticed attenuation is up at 56.6db???
Modem Type: Built in modem - ADSL
DSL Line (Wire Pair): Line 1 (inner pair)
Current DSL Connection:
Down Up
Rate: 3392 kbs 448 kbs
Max Rate: 3356 kbs 684 kbs
Noise Margin: 9.0 dB 13.0 dB
Attenuation: 56.6 dB 31.5 dB
Output Power: 18.4 dBm 12.4 dBm
Protocol: G.DMT Annex A
Channel: Interleaved
DSLAM Vendor Information Country: {46336} Vendor: {IFTN} Specific: {48753 }
ATM PVC: 0/38
Rate Cap: 3356 kbs
Attenuation @ 300kHz: 56.6 dB
Uncanceled Echo: -23.9 dB Ok
VCXO Frequency Offset: -52.3 ppm Ok
Final Receive Gain: 29.9 dB Ok
Excessive Impulse Noise: 0 Ok
Collected for 21:11:14
Since Current Current Time Since
Reset 24-hr int. 15-min int. Last Event
ATM
Last Event
Cell Header Errors 434 434 1 0:00:39
Loss of cell Delineation 413 413 0 0:58:58
DSL
Link Retrains: 5 5 0 0:58:57
DSL Training Errors: 8 8 0 0:57:42
Training Timeouts: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Framing Failures: 8 8 0 0:58:58
Loss of Signal Failures: 6 6 0 0:58:58
Loss of Power Failures: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Margin Failures: 6 6 0 0:58:58
Cum. Seconds w/Errors: 33 33 2 0:00:39
Cum. Sec. w/Severe Errors: 8 8 0 0:58:58
Corrected Blocks: 705 705 10 0:00:39
Uncorrectable Blocks: 439 439 2 0:00:39
DSL Unavailable Seconds: 4354 4354 0 0:57:28
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I had to go way back in this thread to find a previous mention of your downstream attenuation. It was 56.3 dB. So although you currently see 56.6 dB, I don't think that difference is too significant and is perfectly understandable as work has been done at the joints in the line.
He advised me he had changed the DP.
That statement is a little bit ambiguous. As it stands, it reads that he has "changed the distribution point". I suspect that what he meant was that he had changed the working pair for your line between the DP and the PCP -- in other words, performed a D-side swap.
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"performed a D-side swap" yes I would saythats right tho this guy was not so chatty as I mentioned :-\
Well I had another fall off today and saw a message about failed internet and possible internet interuption etc and to click on link test and it all fired up again ???
Well my connections droped down as it ever does >:(
Ive entered the data below but what might this event be but the same stuff Ive been getting for weeks now :-\
Modem Type: Built in modem - ADSL
DSL Line (Wire Pair): Line 1 (inner pair)
Current DSL Connection:
Down Up
Rate: 2304 kbs 448 kbs
Max Rate: 2316 kbs 704 kbs
Noise Margin: 9.0 dB 14.0 dB
Attenuation: 56.1 dB 31.5 dB
Output Power: 16.2 dBm 12.4 dBm
Protocol: G.DMT Annex A
Channel: Interleaved
DSLAM Vendor Information Country: {46336} Vendor: {IFTN} Specific: {48753 }
ATM PVC: 0/38
Rate Cap: 2316 kbs
Attenuation @ 300kHz: 56.1 dB
Uncanceled Echo: -24.0 dB Ok
VCXO Frequency Offset: -53.8 ppm Ok
Final Receive Gain: 29.9 dB Ok
Excessive Impulse Noise: 0 Ok
Collected for 1Day2:10:42
Since Current Current Time Since
Reset 24-hr int. 15-min int. Last Event
ATM
Last Event
Cell Header Errors 121722 121286 23547 0:04:01
Loss of cell Delineation 121360 120947 23547 0:04:01
DSL
Link Retrains: 7 2 2 0:01:20
DSL Training Errors: 10 2 2 0:01:07
Training Timeouts: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Framing Failures: 8 0 0 5:58:26
Loss of Signal Failures: 6 0 0 5:58:26
Loss of Power Failures: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Margin Failures: 1427 1421 292 0:04:01
Cum. Seconds w/Errors: 2104 2069 400 0:04:01
Cum. Sec. w/Severe Errors: 2069 2061 400 0:04:01
Corrected Blocks: 123031 122252 23548 0:02:49
Uncorrectable Blocks: 121290 120849 23454 0:04:01
DSL Unavailable Seconds: 4408 54 54 0:00:53
-
I wonder if Walter is awake? :P He "enjoys" analysing statistics from long and temperamental lines. ::)
-
Update: For past three days my stats appear to be constant along the lines below and no failed connections with internet :)
There has been the odd rise and fall in noise but its been mostly at the one in stat below.
DSL Details
Modem Type: Built in modem - ADSL
DSL Line (Wire Pair): Line 1 (inner pair)
Current DSL Connection:
Down Up
Rate: 2304 kbs 448 kbs
Max Rate: 2720 kbs 704 kbs
Noise Margin: 12.0 dB 14.0 dB
Attenuation: 56.1 dB 31.5 dB
Output Power: 16.2 dBm 12.4 dBm
Protocol: G.DMT Annex A
Channel: Interleaved
DSLAM Vendor Information Country: {46336} Vendor: {IFTN} Specific: {48753 }
ATM PVC: 0/38
Rate Cap: 2720 kbs
Attenuation @ 300kHz: 56.1 dB
Uncanceled Echo: -24.0 dB Ok
VCXO Frequency Offset: -53.8 ppm Ok
Final Receive Gain: 29.9 dB Ok
Excessive Impulse Noise: 0 Ok
Traffic Statistics
DSL Link Errors
Collected for 4Days18:34:10
Since Current Current Time Since
Reset 24-hr int. 15-min int. Last Event
ATM
Last Event
Cell Header Errors 121778 5 0 9:10:58
Loss of cell Delineation 121364 0 0 19:21:57
DSL
Link Retrains: 7 0 0 3Days16:24:48
DSL Training Errors: 10 0 0 3Days16:24:35
Training Timeouts: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Framing Failures: 8 0 0 3Days22:21:54
Loss of Signal Failures: 6 0 0 3Days22:21:54
Loss of Power Failures: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Margin Failures: 1427 0 0 3Days16:27:29
Cum. Seconds w/Errors: 2155 6 0 9:10:58
Cum. Sec. w/Severe Errors: 2069 0 0 3Days16:27:29
Corrected Blocks: 124537 96 0 0:10:35
Uncorrectable Blocks: 121357 8 0 9:10:58
DSL Unavailable Seconds: 4408 0 0 3Days16:24:21
I seem not to have any discernible talk on the quiet line although I tried this morning and heard the "faintest" of a conversation that was nothing really more than a "hint" of highs and lows the way people respond in conversation if that makes sense ???
I guess I need to leave this "training" now?
Although I would of course like to get back to a higher sync that I "enjoyed" months back which was 3800kbps.
Any views on how I should tread :-[
-
Hi
Looks as if your target SNR has gone up and output power gone down !
Collected for 21:11:14
Rate: 3392 kbs 448 kbs
Max Rate: 3356 kbs 684 kbs
Noise Margin: 9.0 dB 13.0 dB
Output Power: 18.4 dBm 12.4 dBm
+++++++
Collected for 1Day2:10:42
Rate: 2304 kbs 448 kbs
Max Rate: 2316 kbs 704 kbs
Noise Margin: 9.0 dB 14.0 dB
Attenuation: 56.1 dB 31.5 dB
Output Power: 16.2 dBm 12.4 dBm
+++++++++
Collected for 4Days18:34:10
Rate: 2304 kbs 448 kbs
Max Rate: 2720 kbs 704 kbs
Noise Margin: 12.0 dB 14.0 dB
Attenuation: 56.1 dB 31.5 dB
Output Power: 16.2 dBm 12.4 dBm
Normally looking at the last 2 sets where the SNR margin has gone up to 12 without achange to the Synch rate I would say that some interference on the line has gone . However I am a little confused to see that the MAX rate has changed .
Is Collected for 4Days18:34:10 the actual up time to the exchange ?
Regards Jeff
-
"Is Collected for 4Days18:34:10 the actual up time to the exchange ?"
Thanks jeffbb:) - - - Yes - - I think its the time of my last re-boot of router when it failed to link (last post 29th) and I got the error message.
I had no "internet" connection but had BB ???
Is that max rate something to do with BT stabilising thing?
-
Hi
The max rate is the maximum that the router could attain if totally optimised . that isoptimum SNR margin ,output power etc . (or at least that is my understanding .
If that is the last resynch you had then did you notice the SNR going up ? or was it at 12 or there abouts immediately after resynch ?
Ideally next time you lose synch record the the Stats immediately . so that you have a reference point to any changes .
Graphs are a better tools for analysing trends .without ploughing through all the post ,have you got Routerstats . ?
Regards Jeff
-
jeffbb - - -I have routerstats and I am still trying to work out how to set up graph recording historicaly :-[
I do have the "log" of events which showed I lost sync around 4.00pm (on 29th) and the Rx-Sync=3392 just before.
It then showed Rx-Noise=9.0 Tx-Noise=13.0 Rx-Sync=2176 Tx-Sync=448 at re-sync!
A bit latter noise went up to 10 and then @17:01:00 Rx-Noise=12.0 Tx-Noise=14.0 Rx-Sync=2304 Tx-Sync=448
Thats about what its been since.
I just tried setting graphs to capture each page always - - that ok?
-
My latest feedback from the BT "ELC" chap indicates the problem may be resolved :dance:
Although he said the 10 day training was occuring so that may well explain the "low" cap which I have noticed varying.
Presently the stats show:
Modem Type: Built in modem - ADSL
DSL Line (Wire Pair): Line 1 (inner pair)
Current DSL Connection:
Down Up
Rate: 2304 kbs 448 kbs
Max Rate: 2684 kbs 704 kbs
Noise Margin: 12.0 dB 14.0 dB
Attenuation: 56.1 dB 31.5 dB
Output Power: 16.2 dBm 12.4 dBm
Collected for 6Days18:24:59
Since Current Current Time Since
Reset 24-hr int. 15-min int. Last Event
ATM
Last Event
Cell Header Errors 121810 10 0 8:52:18
Loss of cell Delineation 121369 2 0 18:04:26
DSL
Link Retrains: 7 0 0 5Days16:15:37
DSL Training Errors: 10 0 0 5Days16:15:24
Training Timeouts: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Framing Failures: 8 0 0 5Days22:12:43
Loss of Signal Failures: 6 0 0 5Days22:12:43
Loss of Power Failures: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Margin Failures: 1427 0 0 5Days16:18:18
Cum. Seconds w/Errors: 2180 9 0 8:52:18
Cum. Sec. w/Severe Errors: 2069 0 0 5Days16:18:18
Corrected Blocks: 125046 227 1 0:08:43
Uncorrectable Blocks: 121393 12 0 8:52:18
DSL Unavailable Seconds: 4408 0 0 5Days16:15:10
I have managed to get routerstats posting my graph of noise and sync :o
but am still toying around trying to get how to post :)
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>>> but am still toying around trying to get how to post <<<
either :-
Hit the "reply" button.
When that page opens type your reply, then go bottom left hand corner where it says "attachments and other options"
Click on that, then down to the "attach" option......go to the right hand side of that and click on "choose".
That will open your Windows Explorer.......navigate to the file you want to attach and, in Explorer, hit the "open" button and you will see the file name appear in the attach box.
Then hit the "post" button.
(Size limitation of 600kb. applies)
or :-
Upload your image to an image hosting site such as Photobucket, and then post the [.img] link in your reply.
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"Then hit the "post" button." - - I did all the earlier stuff but dont see a post option :-[
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Darn - - it was there but did not show in preview ??? - - - :D
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:D
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For that one hour twenty minutes period, the graph looks good. :)
If you have similar over the next 36 hours, I'll say "Excellent!". ;D
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I think things are looking ok. The stats I have taken run from early AM to late PM and the only change of note in noise was this :)
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Hi
You should be able to fit all on one page ,then your sure not to miss any thing.
Sampling every 20 seconds and 4500 points per page will give about 24hrs . Of course you can sample more frequently or less adjusting points per page as appropriate .
Regards Jeff
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I think things are looking ok. The stats I have taken run from early AM to late PM and the only change of note in noise was this :)
Nice. ;D
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Hi
You should be able to fit all on one page ,then your sure not to miss any thing.
Sampling every 20 seconds and 4500 points per page will give about 24hrs . Of course you can sample more frequently or less adjusting points per page as appropriate .
Regards Jeff
Thing is I am not sure how to do that - - - a bit of guidance as to which box and what to tick would be greatly appreciated - - ???:-[
Thanks :)
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Configure > Graphs > Common Settings > right side of that page
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Oranged - - - Many thanks and will try out tomorrow - - err latter today ;D
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I think I did something wrong again :-\
I had graph capture all day but when U closed just now I only see part of the days picture.
How do I get the whole days trenfs to save - -?
Sorry for my lack of savvy :-[
ps. I cant attach as it says its too big :o :)
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If you cannot reduce the size of your image ( do you have an image editing prog. on board ? ) you could upload it to an image hosting site such as Photobucket/ImageShack etc. and the copy the [.img} code from there into the body of your post here.
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Hi
sounds like you have the graph spread over many pages .Do you have to scroll to see all of it . ?
I normally do a screen pint then paste into "Paint" then I crop the graph Nd copy to s new" Paint " window save to desktop . then attach to Post.this normally produces a file of about 30KB
Regards Jeff
Edit see a short example .
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Trying this
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Aside from my inability to put up a fuller graph ???
Anything to comment about the results of latest?
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Unfortunately there's nothing much to say about those graphs. Your noise margin is between 11 and 12 dB and changing by small amounts over time, which is quite normal. The reason it bounces between 11 dB and 12 dB is simply that the router is only reporting the noise margin in increments of 1 dB, so it gets rounded up or down depending on the exact value.
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Hi
see attached hope it helps .
the settings I use give me 12 hrs on a page so doubling the points per page will cover 24hrs + if you want to sample more often than 20 secs then you will need to increase the points per page .
Regards Jeff
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Thanks jeffbb - - will post something when I can get the right copy procedure/attachment size :)
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See if this works and any comments wellcome :)
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Too much crop :)
Back to drawing board tomorrow :D
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Its been 10 days since my line was "fixed". The BT executive chap has asked me for some feedback on my situation ::)
Well I am still using the test socket but my stats (without graphs :) ) are some way off being what they were or could be. Anyone have sugesstions I could pass on to him?
Modem Type: Built in modem - ADSL
DSL Line (Wire Pair): Line 1 (inner pair)
Current DSL Connection:
Down Up
Rate: 2304 kbs 448 kbs
Max Rate: 2668 kbs 704 kbs
Noise Margin: 12.0 dB 14.0 dB
Attenuation: 56.1 dB 31.5 dB
Output Power: 16.2 dBm 12.4 dBm
Protocol: G.DMT Annex A
Channel: Interleaved
DSLAM Vendor Information Country: {46336} Vendor: {IFTN} Specific: {48753 }
ATM PVC: 0/38
Rate Cap: 2668 kbs
Attenuation @ 300kHz: 56.1 dB
Uncanceled Echo: -24.0 dB Ok
VCXO Frequency Offset: -53.8 ppm Ok
Final Receive Gain: 29.9 dB Ok
Excessive Impulse Noise: 0 Ok
Collected for 11Days17:15:09
Since Current Current Time Since
Reset 24-hr int. 15-min int. Last Event
ATM
Last Event
Cell Header Errors 121911 7 0 1:02:07
Loss of cell Delineation 121374 1 0 15:12:06
DSL
Link Retrains: 7 0 0 10Days15:05:47
DSL Training Errors: 10 0 0 10Days15:05:34
Training Timeouts: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Framing Failures: 8 0 0 10Days21:02:53
Loss of Signal Failures: 6 0 0 10Days21:02:53
Loss of Power Failures: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Margin Failures: 1427 0 0 10Days15:08:28
Cum. Seconds w/Errors: 2273 6 0 1:02:07
Cum. Sec. w/Severe Errors: 2069 0 0 10Days15:08:28
Corrected Blocks: 129083 2020 0 0:22:56
Uncorrectable Blocks: 121513 9 0 1:02:07
DSL Unavailable Seconds: 4408 0 0 10Days15:05:20
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This is latest "crop" effort - - I hope :)
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Trying again ::)
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Does attached say anything wrong/bad happening?
Any comments on earlier post?
Thanks :)
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Yes, something happened just after 13:53, causing a big increase in interference, and hence the reduction in the noise margin. Up to that point there was nothing wrong at all.
The thing that happened could possibly be an intermittent line fault, but if this were the explanation I would normally expect the noise margin to be very jittery afterwards, and it isn't. So the most likely explanation, I think, is that some interfering electrical equipment was switched on at that time. Time to have a chat with the neighbours, perhaps.
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Hmm - neighbours are approx 50' away either side but I got this stat the day before around 6.30pm - - is that the type of jitter you mentioned?
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Not really, no. It's just the same small variations as before, but shifted down by a few dB.
I hadn't noticed that the previous graph could be scrolled, so I now see that the drop in noise margin lasts about 2 hours, then it comes back up for 1.5 hours, and drops again. That looks a bit like what you might get from something like a freezer or something of that nature, but this is pure guesswork.
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roseway - thanks for the ideas :)
I asked the BT guy to see if I can have the noise margin reduced to nearer 6db and when can I stop using the test socket.
I really want to re-boot the router but am waiting for his reply :-\
I am not sure about the idea of electric appliance as I have not changed anything in my house setup for some years and the problems with my broadband started around March. It appeared to be a line noise fault - - as the thread has gone on for a while :)
and I seemed to have that noise cleared - - -at least the router is now holding sync which it didnt do a while back. As for the earlier hub 3 router well that just kept re-syncing and would not stay connected for more than two days so something BT did has improved things!
Thanks again :)
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In answer to my request to get my bb back to its old sync the BT guy replied that he has passed on my stats "to our high level broadband technical department" :-\
Last nigts routerstats showed:
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Hi
again something seems to happen at about 1350 but after that its very quiet .
When does your SNR return to its higher level. ?
Does this drop in snr Margin coincide with increase in errors ?
What are your sampling rates from RS?
Regards Jeff
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jeffbb - you will have to forgive my ignorance - but "sampling rates" ???
These drops have only recently begun to show since I got the new router.
From August 2nd up to the 8th the snr was a flat 12db. then they started to fluctuate mainly from 12 to 11. The one on 9th was the first drop around 13.50. Yesterdays was also similar but I closed the monitoring before it picked up on account of the pc is in bedroom and its too intrusive to run overnight :)
Presently its dropped again around 14.08 :no:
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Hi
see http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,9467.msg196694.html#msg196694
The rate that you have set RS to sample at ?
Regards Jeff
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jeffbb - - Ok - - I have set mine to the same as your picc :)
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OK that should give you 12Hrs per page . :)
Regards Jeff
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Well my syncs up and I see the powers up to 18.9db + atten of 57.1db + latency= fast :-\
Maybe its BT doing stuff ???
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Hi
Still looks as if something is switching off just before 0900Hrs and switching on at about 1500Hrs .
Have you got the option to superimpose the synch rate on the SNR margin graph?
edit did you have a resynch at 1500Hrs ?
Regards Jeff
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"Have you got the option to superimpose the synch rate on the SNR margin graph?"
Well If I do I dont know ;D
But the BT guy recently emailed me to say he was waiting to hear about changed profile :-\
Doesnt look good tho :'(
And the last sector of the graph is same now :(
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Additionaly - - this from my router stat!
Collected for 15Days9:14:49
Since Current Current Time Since
Reset 24-hr int. 15-min int. Last Event
ATM
Last Event
Cell Header Errors 138947 17005 1 0:10:29
Loss of cell Delineation 130406 9032 0 3:33:35
DSL
Link Retrains: 9 2 0 5:45:39
DSL Training Errors: 12 2 0 5:45:21
Training Timeouts: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Framing Failures: 9 1 0 8:37:06
Loss of Signal Failures: 7 1 0 8:37:06
Loss of Power Failures: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Margin Failures: 1566 139 0 5:45:39
Cum. Seconds w/Errors: 9262 6955 1 0:10:29
Cum. Sec. w/Severe Errors: 2253 184 0 5:45:39
Corrected Blocks: 137215 51 0 8:37:06
Uncorrectable Blocks: 150528 28974 1 0:10:29
DSL Unavailable Seconds: 4654 246 0 5:45:07
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Hi
still something appears to be switching off at around 17:45Hrs
quote :But the BT guy recently emailed me to say he was waiting to hear about changed profile
I cannot see how the changing of profile will cure this SNR stepping . The 1db steps are nothing to worry about Its normal SNR movements ,Your router only seems to be reporting 1db steps .
quote :Well If I do I dont know
on the SNR graph Right click
see my attachment >have you got the options there ?
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jeffbb - again thanks for your input :)
"have you got the options there ?" - - Yep and Ive now initiated it :) - -what will be the benefit of that btw :-[
Not got a lot of time to devote to stuff today as I am off to the footy a bit latter :clap:
I think I will try a series of electrical switch offs on Monday. Put ALL power off except the router n pc and see what occurrs around the mysterious 14.00 mark :-\
I was wondering about what BT might be doing re my profile as that has gone from interleaved to fast and the power has gone up also. I see a lot of changes in the router errors since I went back to fast. I also see the "MAX rate" changing regularly and dont know what thats about unless its the exchange monitoring thing that BT use to adjust flow or whatever ???
I seem to be going over old ground a bit as all of these re-sync issues are what triggered my attentions back in March when it all began :'(
Thankfully I have got yours and the other guys inputs so at least I am not imagining stuff :no:
It gives me some confidence with which to keep plugging away with BT :)
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Hi
quote :Yep and Ive now initiated it :) - -what will be the benefit of that btw
The main advantage is that you should see quite clearly if Synch is lost .You would normally expect to see a step difference in the synch rate corresponding to the snr losses .as per my problems
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,9752.msg197093.html#msg197093
Regards Jeff
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Latest before close:
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Another shot before close. Spikes seem to have no real pattern :-\
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This morning the "interference" began around 7.00am as just before stat was 13 noise and 2100 sync then bingo its 6 noise and 3680 sync ???
So something triggered it or did the BT exchange just re-sync?
I checked immersion tank and freezer ( swithed on n off) but no change there seems to be nothing in my property thats doing it :no:
I am understanding this right?
Should I ask this BT exec chap and let him know about "routerstats" and the graph of the spikes?
First stat was just prior to change:
DSL
Link Retrains: 13 1 0 11:31:48
DSL Training Errors: 17 1 0 11:31:31
Training Timeouts: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Framing Failures: 12 1 0 11:31:48
Loss of Signal Failures: 10 1 0 11:31:48
Loss of Power Failures: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Margin Failures: 1698 67 0 11:31:48
Cum. Seconds w/Errors: 57048 12071 0 1:55:15
Cum. Sec. w/Severe Errors: 2489 120 0 11:31:48
Corrected Blocks: 137215 0 0 2Days15:32:22
Uncorrectable Blocks: 266023 37342 0 1:55:15
DSL Unavailable Seconds: 5013 151 0 11:31:16
DSL
Link Retrains: 14 2 0 0:12:30
DSL Training Errors: 18 2 0 0:12:13
Training Timeouts: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Framing Failures: 12 1 0 12:03:33
Loss of Signal Failures: 10 1 0 12:03:33
Loss of Power Failures: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Margin Failures: 1698 67 0 12:03:33
Cum. Seconds w/Errors: 57539 12562 485 0:00:00
Cum. Sec. w/Severe Errors: 2490 121 1 0:11:05
Corrected Blocks: 137215 0 0 2Days16:04:07
Uncorrectable Blocks: 268069 39388 2026 0:00:00
DSL Unavailable Seconds: 5045 183 0 0:11:58
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Now what does this say ???
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Hi guys. I see these comments on some BT replies re my noise and sync issues. Would anyone know if it relevant to my situation as I am getting pretty disheartened :'(
"BB is rate adaptive - so speed will fluctuate depending on conditions.. this speed is controlled by the noise margins
If your confident the issues have been fixed there are 2 things you could do
1 - just reset the current BRAS profile - to map the current sync speed...... this will not change the SNR margin which will eventually change naturally depending on conditions in the network... as conditions improve - the SNR should reduce leading to an increase in sync speed
2 - complete CCSNR. This will put the line into a new 10 day stabilisation period... it will set the SNR to 6 db and allow the line to stabilise and settle at the appropriate speed for the conditions
The customer has got pretty good speeds for his loop loss currently - 2304 on a 56db line.
I would be tempted to go with option 2 if problems now fixed but the customer will need to be made aware the SNR will move initially to 6 db.... if this then gets higher this is normal BB behaviour"
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I am getting pretty disheartened :'(
We cannot allow that to continue, so b*cat tries . . . :crazy:
Please wait for Jeff to catch up with your posts and, I'm sure, he will reply.
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B*cat - :D
Thanks for the kind thoughts.
I sent the BT guy an email saying that the spikes/noise issue cannot be right although I get the feeling they think its not unusual - appols to tom Jones ::)
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Just a little update to say that my nice BT exec has had to pass the case over to their "high level broadband technical department" :-\
They have emailed me and will phone me tomorrow between 8.00am and 8.00pm.
I sent them a couple of screenshots of the dropouts just in case it helps.
I will post a graph latter but its dropped and picked up once today, in fact it picked up as I was typing this ::) ???
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Hi
Very strange but one thing has been shown clearly on 8 and 9 graphs that you lost Synch with a very quiet line with no obvious reason .When it resynched though you had Higher SNR margin with lower synch rate .That is baffling ? almost as if your target SNR had been raised ,but the following day the snr was back with near enough normal synch
Did you get an abnormal rise in errors ?at those times
The third graph that is more normal in that the resynch was lower with same SNRmargin indicating a rise in noise on the line
can you run for 24hrs and increase your points per page to cover your sampling period,so that it can be viewed all in one page width .its quite difficult to understand the graphs
Is it me or is there something odd about the times on graph 8 starting just after 9: the next time seems to star with 20 rather than 10 ?
Regards Jeff
Edit with rs do you have the option to plot The errors on a graph in 15 minute steps
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jeffbb- Thanks for views :)
I think I maybe responsible for some confusion as I have done a "capture" when the incident occurred rather than "final result of the days monitor" :-[
I really cannot run over 24hr as the other half who uses the bedroom the pc is in would lynch me ::)
I try to start up monitoring from around 7.30am until 10.30 pm.
Is there a "best" setting in the graph configure that I should use for the times I operate. I find the schedule capture section a bit vague "between hours - thru to ???
"Did you get abnormal errors? at those times" -- Would I need to have taken those from the actual router page? Not sure :-[
I noticed I am back on "interleaved" so some of the "lost sync events may be due to BT folks "fixing" stuff :-\ :-\
Maybe you could give me an idea as to what settings to adjust to so as to make things a little clearer as I am not so sharp :paperbag:
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Hi
quote I find the schedule capture section a bit vague "between hours - thru to ???
I never use the capture ability . I run RS recording the SNR/Synch graph continuously(mostly minimized) then just copy the graph using Print screen. paste into Paint then extract the RS window and paste into new Paint window (don't bother saving the original ) and save this one .The result is attached to my post using the attachment option available on the forum . I also only run RS window size about 4inch * 8 inch (less to send)
quote :Is there a "best" setting in the graph configure that I should use for the times I operate
see the attachments for settings(should give about 14 and a half hours ) and expected result
Regards Jeff
edit : might be better to run RS in the smallest window available to fit in the forum without scrolling .
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Hi
Have you changed your router ? the latest stats are difficult to read ,different layout to your original ones .
with rs do you have the option to plot The errors on a graph in 15 minute steps
see attachment
Regards Jeff
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jeffbb - - - you lost me ???
"I also only run RS window size about 4inch * 8 inch" - - How do I do that?
"might be better to run RS in the smallest window available" - - Ditto
"with rs do you have the option to plot The errors on a graph in 15 minute steps" - - How do I get to that option?
I set to the 14 hr :27 min as in your picc but I just dont find the other options - - -but it is late ::)
My router is the same btw.
So if I "dont" capture the graph - -what determines when it will be logged? Is that the capture graphs once at --- -?
Sorry for being so dumb here :-[
I also see a x4 box in top right corner of rs - - Is that right?
:'(
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Ok - - a little more news from BT. The new contact at the high level broadband tech people contacted me and has given me a little more confidence in regard to investigations etc :)
He tells me he has some thoughts regarding previous engineer reports and one which seemed to be unfollowed :o
So he has requested OR to do some further investigations. As he is away on leave for a while someone else will call me on Monday to update on progress :-\
I guess it will take a while longer but I have made a few improvements (I hope) with RS.
Yesterdays is attached.
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:) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :) :)
just going out
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A quick query about RS :)
I just checked my stats for the day. I have "capture graphs once at 22.30 but on checking I find its missed out some of the earlier plots when it was started eg: 6.30 ???
How do I get RS to record a capture between say 6.30am until 22.30pm?
Thanks :)
latest stat - - - minus the start appended :(
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Recent charts :)
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Hi
All of these show that there is something switching on/ off generating constant noise of about 3db . I notice no loss of synch .
What time do you switch on your PC ? ;D 6:30 that's not a time ,its a disease :lol:
Regards Jeff
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How do I get RS to record a capture between say 6.30am until 22.30pm?
Graphs > Capture Properties > Look in bottom left for "Schedule (Capture each page)" tick "Between hours" and select hours range.
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Oranged - Thank you very much :)
jeffbb - Well it has got me a "little" obsessive ::)
Interestingly I got another call from BT broadband tech person who advised me that the "Higher level people at OR are following up on investigations and although the first BT bb tech chap said he did not want to arrange yet another engineer visit it appears that this is what I am going to get on Thursday (26th) :-\ He added that this person would be PSTN and BB conversant :-X
The "no loss of sync" is a bit odd really but I notice that the noise appears to "gravitate" toward a higher level most of the time ??? This seems to allow the sync to remain constant.
Once the sync is at the more regular level it used to be at eg: 3700kbps or thearabouts I see the marked "noise" db drop and a comensurate re-sync to a lower setting :no:
Well thats how it appears to happen ???
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This was the last time I got the lower level re-sync and its been the same level since:-\
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Just trying an experiment and re-booted router :-\
Now sync at 3936 kbps and 6db noise :)
See how long that lasts ::)
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Not very >:(
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Once more then as router failed to re-sync - - no internet light :no:
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Well the engineer called and spent some time going over visits to cab etc and I tried to update him on what had gone before as he had no records supplied to him :o
Considering all of the BT people that have been in touch with me and the last chaps confirmation that he did not just want to get another engineer out I find that a little less than comforting :-\
Anyway - - you know where this is going as the line went pfft again!
The engineer did fit an rf thing and changed stuff twice at the cab but here we are yet again with me needing to re-boot the router >:(
Interestingly its synced at the highest Ive ever had tho ::)
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hi
That sequence of loss of synch and resynchs clearly show something is switching on causing the loss of synch,then leaves the line with some noise when resynching at the target SNR then because of the increased noise the synch rate drops .
as per graph 1 .
Graph 2 . Trouble is no idea how that links to graph 1 . But resynching when the line condition was better (Snr margin 8 )allowed and increase in synch rate when reconnecting ,SNR margin back to 6db.
Graph 3 : lost synch Graph 4 finally resynched
graph 5 :what a mess . But basically your line is a nice quiet line except for this particular very nasty noise being generated by ???? something .
This post has been running for sometime .
Just to recap
you have definitely ruled out internal equipment/cabling problem ?Probably quite difficult as its so intermittent
Have you tried a different router ?
Regards Jeff
Regards Jeff
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jeffbb - - the last graph is more messy due to the engineers disconnecting etc ???
The run from around 12.15 is "after" he had fixed it :'(
Ive tried all around my property and dont seem to be able to locate a cause (no changes for years and no extensions) but the engineer said it could be anywhere in the vicinity :-\
As for different routers - well there have been four ???
1. Was first SKY supplied.
2. Was second SKY supplied.
3. Was BT HH3
4. Is BT business hub 2701.
I honestly would not mind a BT visit to check REIN in my house and pay if need be :(
I have ket BT high level tech team know what I think though :comp:
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Hi
quote :The run from around 12.15 is "after" he had fixed it
till about 4PM :(
I don't know how much time you have or how long you can actually be with your PC
1: list all the items in your house that you can think of that switch on/off automatically .
then when you have lost synch and resynched with a LOWER synch rate,
Make a note of the SNR margin then
Check each Item by isolating/switching off in turn checking The SNR margin for each time ,make sure that RS has had time to take a couple of samples . If switching of the Item concerned increases SNR margin then that is one of the problems .
Switching back on should result on the SNR decreasing again . this may or may not cause a resynch depending on how you switch off/on .If the fault is with say the thermostat using the wall switch may not create exactly the same noise spike .
its amazing how many thermostats /auto switches there are in the average house .
If you have already done something like this I must have missed it in your posts
Regards Jeff
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Depending upon the size of the house sometimes the "binary chop" method can speed things up. I.e. First you turn off any sensitive things such as secondary computers with spinning disks (except battery powered devices). Then go to your main fuse / circuit breaker box and turn everything off except the modem and one computer to see if the noise disappears. If it doesn't, go walkies with your radio. If it does you have an internal source. Then isolate one cct at a time repeating the test. Hopefully you can discover which cct is the culprit and then you only have to investigate that cct in detail.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Ok - - jeffbb - - waltergmw - - -will do a bit more methodical investigation.
Nothing has knocked out the present sync of 3840kbps and 6db noise overnight so thats a clue - - I think :-\ - - :)
I have turned off my heating controls completely for some days now so - - 1 down and errr - - several more to go :D
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Another update - - to say that a BT high tech bb chap has asked me if I would replace the business router with my HH3 ::)
He says they can get "live data" from it so I guess I will need to comply for the time being. :(
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Hi SRT,
But it might not perform quite as well.
If you want to be naughty you could ask if he could transfer your service over the BT business as they are allowed to talk about Business Hubs !
Kind regards,
Walter
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Hi waltergmw - - tbh I will change it over a bit latter (so they dont moan and claim I am not cooperative) but I have had the power off to all appliances since early am today and noticed a change upwards of noise eg: from 6db to 7 - and then 8db at around the time I shut things off!
Then a little while ago I see a drop and a re-sync to the highest Ive ever had of 4224kbps :o
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Another follow up - (sorry this thread is so long :()
I am back on hh3. I only did this so soon as my business hub lost sync yet again :'(
This was whilst I had ALL power of to house as advised (except this pc). so I cannot see it being anything in my power (scuse pun) to address :no:
Last stat from rs attached.
Hopefully if I ever get this solved I can go back to business hub :)
ps. the reason the stat is brief is due to my swithing of accidentally :paperbag:
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A bit more info - if its not got you all yawning :-[
The original BT high level bb tech chap phoned me on Saturday to advise he was now back (been on leave) and was very grateful for my supplied graphs and could see that there were issues along with time related spikes etc:)
He also felt I had done about as much as could reasonably be expected and that it appeared not to be associated with my household. He also went on to say that he was monitoring the hh3 which I have now connected as they requested and fully expected it to drop sync as before :(
He plans calling me sometime today to update me on what if anything might be done. He did intimate that OR were still implicated with addressing the issue and did not seem overly pleased that they had not actually followed up on the history of my circumstances :-X
Maybe its the begining of the end or the end of the begining ???
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Ok - -another OR chap called today and was again unaware of history :o
I contacted the BT tech guy and he was also not impressed. He had a word with the engineer and I am not sure what was said.
The engineer and I discussed REIN and he listened around with his am radio. He did detect some noise which he felt was REIN and this was associated with my downstairs lighting circuit. When that circuit was switched of at the mains it dissapeared ???
He felt it could build up and cause the spike but I am not really qualified to know if thats possible. The circuit consists of a number of downlighters in the kitchen but these were all switched off. When lights were switched on the noise increased. Anyway I am bamboozled by all of this :'(
I think maybe I should run RS ( I was told its ok to use the business hub again :) ) with the light circuit off to see what happens so will get back to report unless someone thinks differently?
TBH - - I thought I had all power off before but I need to go back and try again :-\
ps. The engineer felt the line tested ok ::)
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Back again ::)
Well I am running RS with the light circuit off and the flippin thing dropped again :no:
These wer off the router and the short but sweet RS graph:
DSL Details
Modem Type: Built in modem - ADSL
DSL Line (Wire Pair): Line 1 (inner pair)
Current DSL Connection:
Down Up
Rate: 3584 kbs 448 kbs
Max Rate: 3484 kbs 692 kbs
Noise Margin: -1.0 dB 13.0 dB
Attenuation: 57.6 dB 31.5 dB
Output Power: 18.9 dBm 12.5 dBm
Protocol: G.DMT Annex A
Channel: Interleaved
DSLAM Vendor Information Country: {46336} Vendor: {IFTN} Specific: {48753 }
ATM PVC: 0/38
Rate Cap: 3484 kbs
Attenuation @ 300kHz: 57.6 dB
Uncanceled Echo: -18.6 dB Ok
VCXO Frequency Offset: -50.3 ppm Ok
Final Receive Gain: 29.9 dB Ok
Excessive Impulse Noise: 0 Ok
Collected for 1:33:06
Since Current Current Time Since
Reset 24-hr int. 15-min int. Last Event
ATM
Last Event
Cell Header Errors 6003 6003 5989 0:00:00
Loss of cell Delineation 5712 5712 5710 0:00:00
DSL
Link Retrains: 0 0 0 0:00:00
DSL Training Errors: 1 1 0 1:32:51
Training Timeouts: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Framing Failures: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Signal Failures: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Power Failures: 0 0 0 0:00:00
Loss of Margin Failures: 56 56 56 0:00:00
Cum. Seconds w/Errors: 114 114 105 0:00:00
Cum. Sec. w/Severe Errors: 102 102 102 0:00:00
Corrected Blocks: 27879 27879 6988 0:00:00
Uncorrectable Blocks: 5994 5994 5981 0:00:00
DSL Unavailable Seconds: 28 28 0 1:32:37
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Some REIN sources can be temperature dependant. that is either it produces dsl affecting REIN when cold but once it warms up the REIN changes or dissapears or it becomes a problem once it warms up.
A whole block in a military establishment was reguarly loosing dsl. Took ages to pin down. the problem was caused by a TV, fine for the 1st half hour it was on, after that here comes the REIN again !
So just to make a difficult thing to find even harder to locate, just looking at the difference straight from switching it on dosn't always reveal itself its the differnce when you turn something off thats the key.
In fact it's dawned on me that I dont think I ever mentioned this little point before. I had taken it so much for granted when I've been hunting REIN. (Err Kitz ! can you update the REIN page a bit please, oops sorry ! :-[)
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Just to add if I may, there are also a heck of a lot of 'False positives' with REIN tracing. With the 444B official tester, I've had the needle go 'full scale deflection' (ie-full on REIN), when near energy saving light bulbs, also most Hub/Router power transformers give a FSD if you go near enough to them, same with set-top boxes. These items are all listed in our 'most likely sources of REIN' handouts, but as I say, they can also give fasle-positives.
The way I make dead sure is to check with the van radio when turning equipment off.
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Oh yes Razpag false positives all over the place. You'll build up a mental store of noises to ignore and some to partialy dismiss. And you'll get some which the moment you hear you'll say "Oh hello, gotcha !"
For someone trying this on their own line with no previous experience its so difficult.
Glad to hear your van radio works at the right frequency, seemed so many of the guys I worked with had vans that didn't ? If you want be really over the top then try a day with the van radio at 606khz. You hear dsl emmited when you go under d/w's as well as the plethora of other stuff around us out there.
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Oh yes Razpag false positives all over the place. You'll build up a mental store of noises to ignore and some to partialy dismiss. And you'll get some which the moment you hear you'll say "Oh hello, gotcha !"
For someone trying this on their own line with no previous experience its so difficult.
Glad to hear your van radio works at the right frequency, seemed so many of the guys I worked with had vans that didn't ? If you want be really over the top then try a day with the van radio at 606khz. You hear dsl emmited when you go under d/w's as well as the plethora of other stuff around us out there.
Hi Ezzer
Yeah, thats the frequency I tune into on the van radio (well, 612Khz ;D). As i'm sure you're more than aware, on receiving a REIN task, it's off with Radio 2 and on with 612Khz MW whilst driving to the EU's. As you say, REIN will be picked up in quite a few places as you drive along, but when I've localised the area then the actual equipment, I go back to the van and drive around the same area to make sure it's gone. Call me mad, but I then switch back on the equipment emitting REIN and have another drive around to make sure it's back. Belt and braces so to speak. ;)
What I hope I never have to attend to, is SHINE. How on Gods green earth one is meant to localise that, I do not know ??!!!!
Apologies to srt for a slight deviation. :-X
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raz - no worries but you both lost me - sort of over my head :D
So if the power is off to the light circuit - then the cause of the drop is elsewhere?
I need to leave it off longer to confirm?
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sorry listening to radio5 hence 606 not 612 :blush: Opps !
Yeah I used the same technique, although I would normaly fall back to my hand held radio to confirm the noise. Miss that radio, it was good one. An Eton. Wind up charger, mains charger for the internal rechargable battery as well as 3 aa batteries and outputs so you could use the wind up charger to charge other stuff including all the mobile batteries you could think of, except the one supplied by work >:(
Also a manual dial to tune rather than digital tuning so its easyer to check across a range of frequencies. I would keep the hand radio by me when using the van radio as you could orientate the radio/antenna to better locate an emmiter.
Now you got your 444b did you get just the rubber duck antenna or a directional one as well ?
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@ SRT
What your looking for is if a suspected noise ties in with a particular source. So you turn the suspected source on and off to see if you get a change in the noise you can hear. If there is then recheck the dsl sync and or stats to compair with and without the noise.
Some sources produce the interference only at the moment the're switched on and dies off or after a while once its warmed up. So thngs get a bit fuzzy in detecting was it that item or not ? A clearer was of hearing this is when you switch the item off and do you hear a change in the suspect noise then.
Usually if you've found the REIN source then its quite obvious by listening to the radio and switching the source on and off. Its just occasionaly the source dosnt want to play fair and the moment you switch it on its as if its going "No, not going to do it now !........Oh good he's not paying attention now....BBBUUUUZZZZ!"
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Just the rubber duck Ezzer.
srt .... I haven't really 'got into' this thread as others appear to be doing just fine giving info. The only bit I will add is that the OR engineer may not have had 'history' of the circuit, as just of late, BTw seem to be struggling maintaining the RRT data logs. It's from this data that we get an idea of what time and duration that REIN appears to be affecting the circuit.
Further investiagations may mean knocking on neighbouring properties and asking if they are having the same problem, and also loooking into their RRT data. Eventually a picture develops.
Anyhows, i'll bow out now. ;D
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Data logs ? what data logs ? I never got any data logs.
It was bad enough having our WOOSH taken off us because we were openreach not wholesale. then told our profile didn't warrent it, we're to use the helpdesk. Then when I reapplied stating I did REIN. "What has that to do with it" :wall:
Data logs ! that would have made life so much easyer.
Sometimes I would turn up and the customer had their own logs printed out. And on one occasion I saw the logs and reconised them from a thread on this forum. (it was the managers lcd monitor and knocked out 4 other units on the same estate. I could make it dissapear by touching any part of the telehone cabling or their patch panel, annoying when that happens)
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PM'd ya.
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Ezzer - - When I say "switched off" as in the lighting circuit - I am referring to the mains board not the wall light switch.
Something like a half hour after the circuit was switched off I got a nose dive in noise and lost sync and needed to re-boot the router.
The attached is graph of what its been doing all night since powered off just before 15.00.
But to confirm - - :blush: - - If this light circuit is switched off for several hours and I still get a drop out then its not the culprit?
I am shutting off pc now but will go back to my "trials" tomorrow.
I am hoping the guy from BT tech gives me some help in getting some further investigation as I am really not even an amateur in this and really need some on the spot expert - - not that you guys arent of course :-[ and I really value your time and patience :)
Cheers.
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OK - -todays graph with the light circuit OFF all day.
Is it still a potential REIN source ???
My BT tech chap called and agreed that if the line dropped then he would request a REIN team investigation :-\
I know I did not lose sync but something hit the noise margin and if the line was better adjusted with noise at the regular 6db I suspect I would have lost sync?
Any views :'(
Cheers.
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Power to light circuit is STILL off. The graph still picks up a drop in noise and a re-sync. Ignore the first re-sync as that was me re-booting router to get a better sync :)
So the light circuit cannot be the cause - - - - can it??
Maybe I should start a newer thread concerning what now appears to be REIN?
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Hi
quote Maybe I should start a newer thread concerning what now appears to be REIN?
Well your graphs are not consistent with REIN . REIN normally is recognised by the very spiky SNR margin graph .Your graphs show a very distinct cut off point and resynch with HIGH snr margin and lower synch rate .More like
SHINE (http://support.zen.co.uk/kb/Knowledgebase/Broadband-Understanding-REIN-and-SHINE)
Regards Jeff
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jeffbb - thanks :)
Seems like it never reins but it shines ???
Ok - so I have covered everything in my place that swithces etc and I still get these incidents when powered off.
I cannot seem to make any further headway myself - so I guess the BT guy will need to request REIN team to at least get some feet on the ground here :-\
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Ha - - just as I am writting email to BT tech chap the bleeping thing has dropped again :'(
If the OR REIN/SHINE people do come and they do find its my household I will be surprised but wont care paying for it as I am going to go insane soon :angry:
My good lady thinks I am of my trolley anyway what with all the lights off and talking about REIN ??? - - - She will be conviced if I mention SHINE :D
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Hi
:) as long as it isn't moonshine :lol: