Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: Jack Hackett on August 14, 2007, 02:25:56 AM
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Hi folks,
I have been using a BT Voyager 2100 router for some time now without any issues, until now that is. As of last Friday, her in doors was complaining to me about losing the internet connection all the time, I finally had chance to investigate late on Sunday (I wasnt feeling well)
the connection was consistently dropping out and the DSL light just keeps flashing as it struggles to sync to the exchange.
My IP profile has plummeted from 4500kbps to 135kbps and less
Looking at the stats on the router, while it gave me chance to, the Line Attenuation db was bouncing all over the place, 60db - 68db - 70db even 105db at some point.
Noise Margin too recorded similar figures.
I did all the usual things, master test socket, changed filters, cables etc, even did the BT quiet line test and it was as quiet as a sleeping baby, no crackles, nothing. Still the problem remained.
I raised a 'ticket' with my ISP (PlusNet) and left the equipment on and connected so they could carry out some tests, however because the router couldnt/wouldnt sync to the exchange the test result was inconclusive as the test showed the equipment up as not on or connected.
So I dug out my old 105 USB modem, hooked it up and Bingo, it syncs to the exchange no probs, looking at the line stats for it Line Attenuation is steady at 31db and SNR is 15-17db
I just need to wait now for the IP profile to rebuild itself back up to a more acceptable figure of 4500kbps instead of the 135kbps it is currently at.
So Im leaving the 105 plugged in and on from now on, until things improve with the line and I may just try the router again.
Been on to PN again and they are going to continue testing monitoring the line over the next couple of days to see how it goes.
I'm kind of thinking the router is up the swanny and will have to be replaced :(
Any thoughts?
Regards
Jack
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It's either going to be a duff router or dodgy connections, and you've probably eliminated the second option by plugging into different places and changing cables. Time to dust off the credit card. :)
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Hiyas Jack
Agree with Eric - Sounds like youve done all the usual stuff to try eliminate the problem and the finger is pointing towards the 2100 having past its sell by date :/
Now you know its stable again, you could always try it once more just to check.. but obviously if it is b0rked then it will lower your IPprofile again. The one good thing is that the rules have changed re the IPprofile 3 day thing and you should hopefully see it increase again without having to wait as long.
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As of yet the IP profile still hasnt increased. Currently using USB modem until things get back to normal and will then try the router again just to be sure, Im pretty certain the router is at fault.
Trouble is Im skint and have NO credit card, I'll just have to do without one for a while, although my son wont be best pleased when he pesters us to go on to CBBC site on his PC in his bedroom. (when you have 1 PC with internet access, why is it that the kids always want to go on when your busy using it (that's why we have routers isnt it?!))
I'll have to check out the local free ads and freecycle.
Jack
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DSL Depot http://www.dsldepot.co.uk/index.asp? have some very cheap B-grade routers. I'm currently using an ST576 which I got from them, and it's the best-performing router I've owned.
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Gosh I feel like I'm doing yet another "me too" by backing up what Eric says. :blush:
I'm also currently using one of their ST576's. That particular router is actually brand new but its a discontinued model.. but it's rock steady and appears to work very well on long lines and IMHO a bargain.
Theres a couple of caveats with it which are outlined in this thread.
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,529.0.html
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>>> Gosh I feel like I'm doing yet another "me too" by backing up what Eric says
:-*
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Hi folks,
Here is a brief update.
Took the router to my Dad's, who is also a PlusNet user, synch was rock steady, had it running for an hour or so, so I guess the ADSL part of router is OK and not faulty.
Meanwhile back at home I am having a right game with my connection speeds. Previous to all this I had a rock steady synch of 4500kbps and speeds of 3500+ (variable for usual reasons).
Back to using Voyager 105
My IP profile has come up from 135 (and less at times) to 2000 now
but my throughputs are all over the place never going above 474 it has been as low as 37!
I am currently using the test socket behind the NTE5's faceplate, new filter, new modem, new cables, disconnected any electrical equipment incase of RF interference.
I am on maxDSL by the way.
PN say they've run tests (BT tests too apparently )and cant find a fault, however they did say at some point that a BT test they did was still reporting the Profile as 135 even tho when I ran BT's Speedtest it was reporting 2000.
Where we live is a new development of houses in a cul-de-sac where there once stood some blocks of 4 storey flats, bearing that in mind, why then, is my neighbour who is also a plusnet customer recommended by us, achieving these speeds?
IP Profile = 6500
Though put = 5426
up/down rates = 448/7616
How come when the BT tester is inconclusive and you then have to login using bt_test_user@plusdsl.net it cant diaply the next page when you click on 'continue' for further tests?
Here's the stats from the modem
Attenuation
local = 32
Remote = 19
SNR
Local = 29.5
Remote = 13.5
Data rate
local = 288
Remote = 2272
Line Rate
Local = 320
Remote = 2304
I have NO idea what attenuation and SNR db rates are good or bad
I've been doing a little reading .....
Is all this speed/synch problems Im having down to something to do with the equipment at the exchange ie DLM, DSLM, bRAS etc
I am NOT a happy camper!
Jack:(
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It looks as though you may have been given wrong information. You're on a fixed 2 meg connection, not Max. You can see that from:
Data rate
local = 288
Remote = 2272
With those stats you could expect to achieve similar results to your neighbour if you were to change to Max.
Your very low throughput is something else. You should get speeds up to ~2000 kbps with a 2 meg connection, so if you never get more than 474 then either the exchange is very congested or (maybe) there's some throttling going on somewhere.
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Data rate
local = 288
Remote = 2272
That would seem to indicate that you are on a fixed 2Mb account.. but how come your IP profile has been bouncing all over the place? Fixed rate products shouldnt report an IP profile of 135.
As regards to "they did was still reporting the Profile as 135 even tho when I ran BT's Speedtest it was reporting 2000" that could well be due to the fact that the ISPs get a "delta report" a couple of times a day, and sometimes there is a slight "lag" between what BT report, and what the ISP reports.
Theres something a bit weird here... it could be a co-incidence that your syncing at 2272 - but there is also the possibility that for some reason your prev maxed line has been moved to a fixed rate product. But then again afaik a fixed rate product shouldnt be showing an IP profile on the test.
Does your router report to you if your on FAST mode or INTERLEAVED or NON-INterleaved?
An interleaved line is one that is on maxdsl.
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Hiya folks, thanks for the input
Does your router report to you if your on FAST mode or INTERLEAVED or NON-INterleaved?
An interleaved line is one that is on maxdsl.
I cant use the router, it wont sync at all!
Had a message from PN via 'My Questions' at 00:30 today saying they were asking BTw to turn on Interleaving, as yet I have not heard anything back from PN.
I am assured by PN that I am on (or should be on) a maxDSL connection. They too are puzzled as to why it seems I am now on a fixed rate.
I am getting really peed off with all this, seems to me that someones been messing around in the exchange and changed something by accident.
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BT Test as of 14:35 today
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Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
IP profile for your line is - 2000 kbps
DSL connection rate: 288 kbps(UP-STREAM) 2272kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 166 kbps
This test was not conclusive and further testing is required.
Please wait whilst you are redirected to undertake a second test.
You now have two choices-
1. If you wish to carry out further tests and you are competent to make changes to your ADSL system configuration, then please click on 'Continue' button.
2. If not, please close the window using 'Exit' button and contact your ISP for further assistance with these results.
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When I click continue and then log off PN and into bt_test_user the next page of BT test does not display. Does it actually work?
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If you go here what does it say for your "stable rate" broadband speed?
https://portal.plus.net/my.html?action=stable_rate
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ps if thats reporting a low figure then I think I may possibly know what it is.
If thats the case if you'd like to pm me your PN username and I'll give someone a prod.
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Stable rate = 2000kbps
16:00 Received message from Paul Emsell CSC Analyst stating they are raising the speed issue with their suppliers (BTw)
Your fault has been raised to our supplier. Please note that they can take between 48-72 hours to provide a response.
And if they think I'm going to pay £144 for a BT engineer visit to say the line is OK they can go whistle, although at this point I havent authorized a visit. The line maybe OK (guess that depends on what tests they do) but something is wrong and it isnt with anything my side of things.
edit:
forgot to add... had a message back informing me that 'Interleaving had been rejected'
Generic Modify Transaction order to turn interleaving ON, BT setting of 'Yes', (not a change of product) has been rejected.
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>> Stable rate = 2000kbps
Thanks for that -
means it isnt what I thought it perhaps could have been (what James calls the magic button) and I could have given someone a poke to change it if it had got stuck.
>> if they think I'm going to pay £144 for a BT engineer visit to say the line is OK they can go whistle,
I know steep isnt it... but that is a BT fee charged by BT if they come out and find out the problem is with your wiring or router. It used to be less than this, but there were many ISPs that were sending BT out without performing checks that should have been done at the ISP level first. BT got peed off and raised the fee so now all ISPs have to (or should be) warning the customer that if the fault is internal then BT will make this fee.
The fact that youre plugged into the master socket, and have tried another modem.. and also your modem is ok at your parents shows that youve done all the testing that you can.. therefore you should be ok.
However, the fact that interleaving turning on has been rejected is a bit puzzling... looks like something really weird is going on on your line.
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Hi There,
I've just been having a look into this for you, something is wrong and I can't quite figure out where.
Looking at your account from our side this shows as a MaxDSL connection with a current profile of 500 (the lowest our one will go to)
From BT Wholesale it shows a MaxDSL connection with a 135 profile, so that matches with our 500.
Now the odd part, as Kitz says the upstream speed of 288 is a fixed speed product upstream and not MaxDSL, for the life of me I can't find anywhere in the BT systems showing your line as fixed profile.
I've gone back a while on the delta reports, did you make any changes to your telephone line, add anything that may produce an electrical signal or similar around the 11th August? I ask this because this is when the speeds on the delta report plummeted from 2000 down to 135.
The interleaving order being rejected is also odd, this leads me to believe that one BT system somewhere hidden in the depths has you on a fixed rate product.
I'm just doing a couple of line tests, hopefully it will tell me what the provisioned product is believed to be. I've got a feeling it will be a misconfig on the BT side and when they investigate the fault it should be picked up (hopefully), it shouldn't need an engineer's visit so if one is requested just PM me on here and I'll have a look what I can do.
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BINGO
Max/Max Premium 2M Capped C (IPHMDM)
Looks like BT have identified your line as a chronic flapper, due to this the throughput has been reduced down to a 2Mb maximum, I'll add some notes on the fault we currently have open to ask for this to be removed.
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>> BT have identified your line as a chronic flapper.
Thanks for that chris :) - Now things are beginning to make sense
That would explain why the problem taking so long to get the IP profile back up.. and why at times its still showing at 135 eg.
The reason why the 2100 is playing up at times also now makes sense.. the 105 is good at obtaining a sync when a lot of other routers cant.
The attenuation bouncing all over the place re your first post (now that we know it isnt your router) means there is something weird going on with the phyical condition of the line.
I did look at your stats and wonder why the large difference between the upstream and downstream atten.. but got distracted by the 2272 figure.
It would appear that even with the Capped C marker that BT have put on it to try and stabilise.. it looks like its still having problems at times.. and that there will be times when the SNR Margin is just too low for the 2100 to be able to sync.
Although the BT DLM has tried to correct this automatically, this also would appear to have failed and the line still has a fault on it somewhere.
Therefore as chris says something happened on the 11th of Aug which has messed up your line. Hopefully the engineer can find out what it is.
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Hi folks,
I've gone back a while on the delta reports, did you make any changes to your telephone line, add anything that may produce an electrical signal or similar around the 11th August? I ask this because this is when the speeds on the delta report plummeted from 2000 down to 135.
Chris, nothing added to phone line, no equipment added to the surge protected sockets that the PC and peripherals use, including telephony lines, however, me and her-in-doors have been chatting and she reminds me that one afternoon around that date in Aug our ever helpful neighbour's son was doing our garden when he sliced through the mower's power cable which 'tripped' the sockets on the main consumer board.
Would that be it?
Are we getting somewhere?
Looks like BT have identified your line as a chronic flapper
Sounds interesting.... :) can you define a chronic flapper please? (it sounds just like her-in-doors :D )
Sim
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It is possible.
Something may well have upset the power system and its now giving out electrical interference.
I know when I had a fuse blow at xmas even when the fuse was replaced my adsl went on a downward spiral. It wasn't until the light switch which had caused the fuse to blow in the first place was re-wired that things settled back down to normal.
mr_chris will probably recall more about that because I wont touch anything electrical & it was him that came to my rescue and re-wired the light switch. I'll put a new fuse in but thats about my limit when it comes to electricity.
>> can you define a chronic flapper please?
A line that consistently syncs between a high and a low speed and wont stabilise. ie the sync speed "flaps around".
lol hope your mrs isnt reading what you said :D
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>> hope your mrs isnt reading what you said
She saw me type it ....... <thump> anyone got some steak and some ice to spare
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heh... one bucket of ice coming right up.
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I know when I had a fuse blow at xmas even when the fuse was replaced my adsl went on a downward spiral. It wasn't until the light switch which had caused the fuse to blow in the first place was re-wired that things settled back down to normal.
mr_chris will probably recall more about that
I can recall, but not much more than what you've already said, and I certainly didn't understand what was going on! Something odd. And given your close proximity to the exchange getting a sync of anything less than 8Mb is unheard of, let alone the ~5Mb you had for a short time, without some (relatively) weird interference causing it.
Just seen your other post tonight (not wanting to take the thread off topic) but it doesn't look like you're having much luck at the moment either :(
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Looks like we have hit a slight stumbling block here, have you called your telephone provider and asked them to investigate a fault?
The fault we raised has been rejected back because there is apparently an open PSTN fault, you need to get your voice provider to fix or close that fault before we can progress from here.
15 - REJECTION - Records show that there is currently an open PSTN line fault. Your customer needs to resolve this issue with their telephony provider. Until this has been rectified we cannot accept any faults.
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Hi Chris,
Looks like we have hit a slight stumbling block here, have you called your telephone provider and asked them to investigate a fault?
No I havent reported any fault to my voice provider
The fault we raised has been rejected back because there is apparently an open PSTN fault, you need to get your voice provider to fix or close that fault before we can progress from here.
What is PSTN? It's news to me, as I mentioned I have NOT reported any fault with my voice provider.
I dont pay BT for my calls I use OneTel (now TalkTalk) for my call charges, however I do still pay line rental to BT, so I'll get on to BT then.
Anything in particular I should be mentioning and asking them, other than the PSTN fault?
Regards
Simon
aka Jack Hackett
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It will actually be your voice provider (onetel/TalkTalk), ask them to close off any open faults they may have on your line. PSTN = public switched telephone network, basically the voice side of the line.
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Chris,
I have just come off the phone after talking to BT Faults and TalkTalk.
BT = No faults open, no faults reported or showing on screen, 'Clean bill of health'
TalkTalk (OneTel) = No faults open, no faults reported or showing on screen, 'everything is working ok'.
Now what??
Sim
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I'll reject the fault back to BT again with those comments on. We'll get to the bottom of this by hook or by crook.
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This is becoming most interesting and perplexing {I can hear the Twilight Zone music playing}
Chris,
I'm still monitoring 'My Questions' and shall respond to anything there, and here of too of course, as I'm sure the other folks here would be interested to follow the progress of this, now seemingly very strange, problem.
Sim
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The only update you should have on the ticket is my reponse rejecting the clear back to BT
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OOooohhhh... somethings just happened....
Lost connection (PN must have been doing something) finally re-connected, I am now synching at 7.6Mbps Cool! 8)
What wire did you tug on Chris?
Here's my latest result
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedtest.net%2Fresult%2F182470507.png&hash=f72cdfd42cdaee30ece2ae16f32a457972374124) (http://www.speedtest.net)
I've still to check the BT Speedtest tho
BT best effort result
Assured Rate IP profile on your line is - 2000 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 417 kbps
we are getting somewhere, I expect these figures to improve over the next few days.
Sim
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I guess BT read my 'suggestion' on the fault report.
Basically it went along the lines of "Remove the 2Mb cap, Remove the 2Mb cap, Remove the 2Mb cap, Remove the 2Mb cap, Remove the 2Mb cap Remove the 2Mb cap, Remove the 2Mb cap, Remove the 2Mb cap, Remove the 2Mb cap, Remove the 2Mb cap, Remove the 2Mb cap, Please"
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>> Assured Rate IP profile on your line is - 2000 kbps
Looks like something still has to update somewhere in the system - cause that doesnt look like a Max profile.
Speed still seems on the low side though for a line syncing at 7.6 Mbps.
Maybe needs to settle down and the new profile take effect properly and the system re-adjust?
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Perhaps BT's systems still think he's on the 2M capped Max connection, which is why the odd speedtest result?
It should just say "IP profile on your line" rather than "Assured Rate". Assured rate is a different service altogether I believe.
Actually, on an assured rate service, one would guess that you should be guaranteed a minimum of the "assured rate"? So why is he only getting 417kbps? Weird.
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I guess BT read my 'suggestion' on the fault report.
Basically it went along the lines of "Remove the 2Mb cap, Remove the 2Mb cap...... repeat... , Please"
PMSL :lol:
getting there
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedtest.net%2Fresult%2F182730763.png&hash=a1decf9952f6f5e14cda05c9bc650d4eb9fe8d4a) (http://www.speedtest.net)
BT Speedtester busy at the moment
Edit: 20:00
BT Speedtest result
IP profile for your line is - 6500 kbps
DSL connection rate Up/Dn: 448kbps / 7616kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 1743 kbps
Getting there.....
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Hi folks,
Lookey here 8)
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.speedtest.net%2Fresult%2F182867649.png&hash=6de24cdcfaa8a4ad241af9e4e4c9f9e40d54fd4a) (http://www.speedtest.net)
A big thank you to Chris Parr and his colleagues at PN for getting the issue sorted out. I'd love to know the ins and outs of what was causing it and what was done fix it , drop me an email (only if you have chance)
Kitz, a big thank you too for your assistance and giving a nudge
I'll keep monitoring and inform as required.
Kind regards to all
Simon & family
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YAY brilliant - good news :)
Looks like it just took a while for the profile to catch up properly.
That last profile certainly didnt look like a "normal" max one, lets hope it stays stable now. :)
Hopefully you can also get that sort of speed during the day time too and not just off peak?
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I'd love to know the ins and outs of what was causing it and what was done fix it
Ermmmm, I can't really answer this, not because it's sensitive information but because BT haven't actually told us. I've just gone back to look at the fault report and all the updates say are:-
NO BTW FAULT - The pstn line test passes.Please resolve the issue with your customer directly. Any further BTW involvement may incur a charge
and then
PSTN fault outstanding
and then
00 - Fault Found - Appointment Required
- this one coincided with your improved speed.
Helpful eh?
Anyways, good to hear that your speeds have improved and long may they continue 8)
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Thanks for your help and intervention chris :)