Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: feliscatusx2 on July 14, 2006, 10:36:31 AM

Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: feliscatusx2 on July 14, 2006, 10:36:31 AM
At present I have a NTE5 master socket in the hall with extension wiring hard wired into the back of the faceplate.  The wiring wanders all over the house and feeds 5 faceplates.

I have a Netgeat DG834 plugged into the first extension (not the master socket) and 3 corded phones connected where needed. 2 of the phones are brand new (BT duet 60, horrible things) and one is older but the same general type.

Just arrived from Clarity is their standard ADSL faceplate and a clone Crone tool.  The plan is to remake all the connections in the faceplates then fit the ADSL faceplate to the master and use a longer lead to connect the Router direct to the Master.  The objective is to try and reduce Contention (50Db - 1.9 Km from the exchange).

My Pal 2 door down (BT Engineer) says they only ever connect wires to terminals 2 Blue & 5 White/Blue stripe.  I have seens this advice on other sites.  The Faceplate instructions state connect 2 & 5 and also Orange/white to terminal 3.

Which is correct or best, at present I only have 2 & 5 connected and all seems OK although the Duet phones seem to have a very quiet ring.

Sorry for such a long first post but any informed advice would be appreciated.
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: feliscatusx2 on July 14, 2006, 11:10:51 AM
PS.

I use the Plusnet ?14.99 2Mb package, synched at 2272 and despite that contention figure I'm getting 1.97 Mb at the moment (DSLZone test), sometimes dropping to about 1.89.

Earlier this year I was seeing speeds as low as 65K, but this turned out to be a rubbish router, since junked.

The reason for all the kerfuffle is that I am trying to get the best possible signal in advance of DSLMax, my exchange had been upgraded but nothing heard since.

In view of all the problems others seem to be having I might even ask PN to not upgrade me for now.
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: Astral on July 14, 2006, 12:18:03 PM
Hi there

I'm fairly new to this forum too, but I think I can help you with this problem.

First to clear up a misconception; contention is the number of people sharing a fixed capacity data path, the effect of which is to slow things down at peak periods when lots of people are sharing the capacity. The 50 dB figure you mentioned is attenuation which is the effect of the signal diminishing as the line gets longer & resistance increases.

Going on to your 2 or 3 wire scenario; the third wire was used for the ringing circuit of your extentions, however this harks back to the days when phones had bells which drew a lot of current. Modern phones do not need this ring circuit, but if it is connected it can act as an antenna picking up electrical interference and putting noise on your line which spoils your SNR (signal to noise ratio) and reducing the stability of your connection.

Regrades to Max are on hold at the moment and with your current attenuation you'll probably be better off on 2 Meg fixed. Look at the other excellent articles on this site, and if you improve your line stats after your re-wire etc. it may be worth considering Max if it is going to give you a significant speed increase.

BTW it may be worth investing in a Category 5 cable to your router, rather than ordinary telephone cable.

Hope that helps.
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: feliscatusx2 on July 14, 2006, 12:27:02 PM
Thanks, you have confirmed my understanding, I will only connect 2 & 5.

PC to Modem connection is via a LAN cable, Clarity also provided a 3M RJ11 to RJ11 cable to connect the Router to the faceplate.

Did I say Contention? I meant Attenuation, Senior Moment there.

Been involved with Computers since 1964, PCs since 1984, I had better go, I feel a nostalgia attack coming on............
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: Astral on July 14, 2006, 12:50:00 PM
I worked for BT before it was BT.

See you back at the old folks home. :D
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: roseway on July 14, 2006, 03:05:10 PM
Quote from: "Astral"
I worked for BT before it was BT.

See you back at the old folks home. :D

I've got a friend who still talks about complaining to the GPO when there's a problem with the phone. It must be about 30 years ago when they ceased to exist.

Eric
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: Astral on July 14, 2006, 03:21:33 PM
He might get a quicker reply from Post Office Telephones, as it was then, than from any present day, so-called, Customer Service department. :D
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: kitz on July 14, 2006, 07:07:53 PM
Hi feliscatus

I think astrals probably covered most of it. :)

As regards to the wiring - then PhilT has an excellent article about this on his site.
http://yarwell.blogspot.com/2005_08_01_yarwell_archive.html


>> synched at 2272 and despite that contention figure I'm getting 1.97 Mb

1.97Mbps = 2017kbps

Thats spot on excellent for a traditional 2Mb IPStream adsl syncinc at 2272 kbps.

ATM (and other) overheads mean that you wont see actual speeds of 2272 - the theoritical maximum speed you can ever attain on a 2Mbps is said to be 1920kbps.
Theres a fuller explanation here
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/speeds2.htm

1.89Mb is 1935kbps which many people on a traditional 2Mbps connection would still literally kill for.

>> I am trying to get the best possible signal in advance of DSLMax, my exchange had been upgraded but nothing heard since.


Latest information on the max regrades can be seen here
http://usertools.plus.net/status/archive/1152544680.htm

You may be interested in the paragraph about "queue jumping".

[PlusNet] Customers can continue to place regrade requests via http://max.plus.net and these will be placed once we restart the regrade programme.

[edited re typo in name]
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: feliscatusx2 on July 14, 2006, 08:53:20 PM
My BT neighbour tells me his homeworking PC was recently upgraded by BT support people from W2K to XP because W2K "would not support a 2Mb ADSL Connection"

Did I mention that I'm still using 98SE? On an old PC with an AMD K6-2 500 processer, with 384 Mb RAM, and it really flys? (Except with Firefox, which I have dumped once again).

I remember GPO telephones when they had little green Morris Vans with rubber front wings.

I can remember trotting down the sweetie shop with my very own little brown Ration Book.

I seem to have forgotten my own name however, Oh well.
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: kitz on July 14, 2006, 09:16:09 PM
>>> because W2K "would not support a 2Mb ADSL Connection"

oooh dear :(

I wonder if BT told them that because it could have been a USB modem and driver issue.  In which case they should have been advised use ethernet (or PCI adsl modem).


>> an old PC with an AMD K6-2 500 processer, with 384 Mb RAM, and it really flys?

Yep I can well believe it..  Ive had older PCs than that running without any probs on  adsl. :)

The oldest I have running on my 8Mb connection is a PIII 733Mhz with 384Mb RAM dual boot XP/RH that I built in mid 2000.
At the time it was a beast of a machine but it still seems to handle most things I chuck at it (aside from modern games obviously).
For some reason I love that PC and cant bear to part with it.
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: feliscatusx2 on July 14, 2006, 09:33:59 PM
Just to illustrate how spoiled you lot are now I used to have to order PCs for new people.

These were IBM PS/2s Intel 80286 Processor (I think) with a 30Mb hard disk.

The box cost ?2200, another ?400 for a 12" VGA screen and ?140 for the keyboard.  They threw the cables in for free.

OS was PC DOS 3.3 of fond memory. No other software was provided.

Most needed a TSO (Terminal support option) card, another ?120ish.  This was used to allow the PC to emulate a dumb terminal for the IBM mainframes down the road.  I was the RACF administrator.  I never found out what RACF stood for, but my main job was reissuing RACF passwords to all the clever IT Types who had forgotten them again.  So I would give them a really impossible password, all random alphanumeric characters and puntuation, then allow them 10 minutes to change it before they were locked out.
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: Astral on July 14, 2006, 11:49:40 PM
Whilst we're reminisceing (doesn't look right without the e either) a good trick with those little green morris's, was to coast downhill with the engine in gear but the ignition off (no steering locks then) and when you had a good head of petrol vapour built up, switch on the ignition which, if you got it right, would blow the exhaust system off or at the very least cause the kiddie with the bag of sweets to spill them everywhere with fright. :twisted:
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: roseway on July 15, 2006, 07:39:09 AM
Do you know something Astral? You're evil :)

(There's no second 'e' in reminiscing).

Eric
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: Astral on July 15, 2006, 08:03:23 AM
Thanks for the spellcheck Eric. It looks OK when you spell it that way but looked wierd when I did. BTW you show a remarkable likeness to a paperclip. :lol:
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: roseway on July 15, 2006, 01:06:32 PM
Well, it's surprising how versatile a paperclip can be. 8)

Eric
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: Astral on July 15, 2006, 01:33:21 PM
Eric wins on points. :(
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: feliscatusx2 on July 15, 2006, 06:03:28 PM
Believe it or not I went to a Grammer school, and every year came top of the class in English Lang.  I spent some time in the 70s writing training material.  My spelling has always been atrocious.  Luckily the training stuff was proof read by people that could spell, unlike a certain weekly PC magazine that shall remain nameless.
Like the tale of the van exhausts, my 1st car was a 1948 Austin 16 2300 cc 4 Cyl.  The exhaust front pipe fractured just below the sump at the foot of the hill that goes up through Greenwich Park.  My mother claimed she could hear me coming 15 minutes before I got home.

Getting back to the point I shall do the phone wiring on Monday, when I will have the house to myself, and let you know what disasters happened.
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: Astral on July 15, 2006, 06:21:11 PM
Quote
Believe it or not I went to a Grammer school


Believe it or not, so did I, but the first (and in my case only) thing we learnt was how to spell it. :lol:

Post edit:

Oh! and not missing out words that render sentences meaningless.
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: roseway on July 15, 2006, 06:54:59 PM
By the way, 'wierd' is spelt 'weird'.  :evil:

Eric
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: Astral on July 15, 2006, 06:58:32 PM
Took yer time spotting that "deliberate" mistake. :wink:
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: feliscatusx2 on July 15, 2006, 07:55:55 PM
I just downloaded & installed IE Spell.

The good news is that it works both on IE and Avant Browser.
The bad news is that I'm using Orca Browser to post this, Orca is Gecko based like wot Firefox is.

Firefox has a spell check extension which can be set use use proper UK English.  Extensions don't yet work on Orca, but as Orca is so much nicer and faster than Firefox then you will all have to put up with my rotten spelling.
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: Astral on July 15, 2006, 08:24:12 PM
Fairy nuff. Just as long as the storeez are amoosing hoo kairs.
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: mr_chris on July 16, 2006, 10:26:50 PM
I thought it might be appropriate at this point to link to this (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/viewtopic.php?p=775) :D
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: Astral on July 16, 2006, 10:35:42 PM
Nice one Chris :lol:
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: roseway on July 17, 2006, 07:45:09 AM
Brilliant. And very true. :)

Eric
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: feliscatusx2 on July 17, 2006, 02:31:27 PM
I should just say that I have consistent speeds & no disconnects, I'm just trying to improve things in advance of the fabled MaxDSL, if and when it ever arrives.

Exchange Results: Slade Green

BT have finished enabling this exchange for Max DSL products.  Products will be available from 31/03/06.

There are currently no known capacity problems on your exchange. There may still be an exchange problem, however BT are not currently reporting that they are aware of it.

Record last updated: 05 Jun 06

You are around 1.94 kilometres (I thought we still used miles in the UK) from your exchange (as the crow flies)

Tests

Original Figures from http://www.dslzoneuk.net/

Speed Test at 21:13 16 July 06 = 1.98 Mbps which is around 252.98 KB/s including overheads


ADSL Link        Downstream     Upstream
Connection Speed         2272 kbps     288 kbps
Line Attenuation            51 db       15.5 db
Noise Margin       13 db       24 db

Based on the values you entered, we estimate that your line can support around 3.0 - 3.8 Mbps.

Revised figures after rewiring.

ADSL Link       Downstream    Upstream
Connection Speed    2272 kbps     288 kbps
Line Attenuation    51 db       15.5 db
Noise Margin    13 db       26 db

Speed Test at 13:09 17.July.06 =1.95 Mbps which is around 249.66 KB/s including overheads

What a waste of time that was, absolutely no change whatsoever.

My BT contact says there may be aluminium cables in the away line where they go underground.  Looks like he may be right. They are about 30 years old now and probably well corroded.

I tried, that's all you can do, I don't suppose BT would fancy replacing the underground cables just to please me.

I was going to cheer myself up by continuing the Slash and Shred programme in the garden, but not in that heat.
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: feliscatusx2 on July 17, 2006, 07:29:18 PM
The question now is do I tell PN not to upgrade my rock solid 2Mb connaction, or wait & see what MaxDSL brings.  If MaxDSL results in problems can I revert?
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: Astral on July 17, 2006, 07:51:10 PM
Tough call that one. You may gain off peak, but against that you will have speeds going up & down all the time. possibly (probably?) to less than you enjoy now.

Having said that, by the time they start Maxing on a big scale again, some (all? unlikely) of the problems will be ironed out. I think my Maxing came unstuck because it was done without warning and with no proper instructions about what to expect & what to do. There is obviously a lot more experience & hopefully good advice now, so perhaps it is worth the gamble.

Your mission.....should you choose to accept it.....this post will self destruct in 5 seconds. :)
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: feliscatusx2 on July 17, 2006, 08:03:36 PM
Suck it and see.

Seems the most logical way.
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: kitz on July 17, 2006, 08:28:16 PM
Quote from: "feliscatusx2"
If MaxDSL results in problems can I revert?


Yes you can - but there is a BTw regrade fee for carrying out the work.
Therefore PN will charge you ?14.99 to go back to 2Mb traditional adsl if you request it.

[edited to add
- See my warning in next post ]
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: kitz on July 18, 2006, 12:15:39 AM
>> Line Attenuation 51 db

Under "old rules" you would (or rather "should") have only been able to get 2Mb based on this figure alone...the atten does seem a tad high considering distance - but its possible that wiring can literally go all round the houses before it reaches your home.

However.

>> Noise Margin 13 db

This is good in view of attenuation figure you have a good nose margin and its over 12dB which is good.


Would I take this line to max??
 
based on those stats 3Mb speeds are a possibility
(I prefer to use Saffy's estimator (http://212.23.23.177/calc.asp) - and remember the sync speed will be rounded down to the nearest .5Mb to set your bRAS profile)

You will get the increased upstream speeds - nps with upstream SNR.

Expect to see some disconnects during the training period whilst the DLM figures out whats best for your line.

Your line is just about ok for SNR Margin now - how it would cope with the higher speeds I dunno - evenings possibly may find you at around 2.5Mb and fluctuating... However, you have a stable 2Mb now so you shouldnt be any worse off.

Every line is different and no-one can predict what a line in particular will do.

Warning

The one thing that I didnt realise when making my previous post above is that your attn was 51dB - and BT would normally say "no way" for 2Mb traditional adsl - despite the fact that you are already on it.  Your ISP would have to fight like mad to get you back on 2Mb since its outside the normal scope since BT would say 1Mb. :/
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: mr_chris on July 18, 2006, 12:49:37 AM
I'd just like to re-iterate the warning if I may...

As far as I know, nothing has changed as regards the criteria for the provision of fixed rate services.

BT say the attenuation must be below 43dB, regardless of the SNR. If you did go on Max and then regraded to a fixed line product, I would be pretty certain BT wouldn't allow a 2Mb order to be placed on the line. Ironic eh, but true.

Your ISP may be able to push through an order for 2Mb, but given your attenuation is so far over the BT limit, I'd think carefully.

Having said that, you have a decent SNR margin, and as Kitz says, you shouldn't be any worse off on Max, and would probably squeeze 2.5 or 3MB out of it. Plus you'd have the higher upstream.

I'd carefully monitor your SNR margin every half hour if you can, whenever you're in, to see what happens to it. SNR fluctuates during the day, sometimes by a large amount. (Higher SNR = better). If your SNR were to wander down into single figures, it may make Max a gamble that isn't really worth taking.

At the end of the day it's up to you of course :) Max isn't a bad thing, but it still has some teething probs and is quite new to BT. Perhaps wait a bit?
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: feliscatusx2 on July 18, 2006, 07:38:11 PM
I have one last possible plan, (Plan G).  My BT neighbour has said that he, or either of his sons (both BT Engineers, I wonder what they talk about in the evenings?) would be happy to move the Master Socket for a very fair price.  I no longer need the socket moved, but I might ask whether they would check the drop wire connections on the BT side of the Master Socket, as I notice we are getting some line noise recently, the dial tone is a little fuzzy.

Let me check I have got this right.

I may, or may not, get better speeds with MaxDSL, but those speeds are likely to vary much more than at present.

If I don't like what I am getting then I can revert to 2Meg, but will have to pay for this.  At this point BT are likely to say "Oh no, not with that contention figure Squire" and knock me back to something even lower.

So I may well be better off staying as I am, bearing in mind that I don't do On-Line games or download music etc.

Total downloads struggle to reach 1 Gb per month, then only when I feel the need to download yet another Linux ISO than won't work.

I just checked the Router stats, Attenuation is still 51Db, SNR is 11.  An hour ago it was 15.

As I am now connected direct from the modem into the Master Socket I assume the Attenuation is due to external factors, either the drop line or the away line.

See, I'm learning all the jargon.
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: feliscatusx2 on July 18, 2006, 07:55:40 PM
Just two thoughts, briefly.

1. How reliable are the Netgear stats, could the little devil be lying to me?

2. Just to thank all who have replied, this must be the most helpful and friendly forum I have tried, and I've tried a few.  The worst is the F***f*x lot, ask the wrong question, or utter a word of criticism and watch the sky fall on you.

Got to go and find the cat, she does not like this hot weather, also make sure that Holby City records OK or life won't be worth living.  Mind you I could always blame the technology, again.
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: kitz on July 20, 2006, 12:55:51 AM
>>> See, I'm learning all the jargon.


lol..  yep indeed you are getting the gist of things.
DSLmax is very unpredictable right now.
If it works - then great...  but there are still problems that need to be ironed out. :/

I'd love to be able to say to you all will be fine.. and it probably will be...  but theres no guarantees.

>>> Just to thank all who have replied..

You're most welcome... the master plan is to teach you all about max... then YOU can answer the questions next time  :lol:   :wink:


ps hope you found the cat.
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: mr_chris on July 20, 2006, 12:57:56 AM
> 1. How reliable are the Netgear stats, could the little devil be lying to me?

Possibly. Trouble is, how do you tell? I've never had the chance of trying a Netgear on a longer line to find out how it ties in with what other devices say.

Depends which Netgear I guess too. If it's a DG834G v2 like I have, and if you've got the latest firmware, I would guess the SNR errs on the side of caution (low side), since mine frequently reports a Noise Margin of 0dB, occasionally -1dB, and still maintains a decent sync, when it really shouldn't be able to!

I guess the only thing you can do is make sure you have the latest firmware as it will hopefully fix any reporting bugs from previous versions, and also try another router/modem on the line if you can to compare findings.

Sorry this reply is a little vague, I can't really help any more than that.
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: feliscatusx2 on July 20, 2006, 12:05:58 PM
Yes, the cat came back.  Anybody else remember that cartoon, Canadian I think, a hoot.

Yes I have DG834 v2 with the latest firmware.  It's showing SNR of 16 at present.

We shall just have to wait & see what happens.
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: feliscatusx2 on July 20, 2006, 09:30:51 PM
Good news?

All the main cables in/out of Slade Green Exchange are alloy, they are due for replacement soon having reached the end of their expected life.  Given the price of copper at present I am not holding my breath 67,bbvvvvvvvvvvv (that last bit of nonsense was the cat).

BT Neighbour will send one of the lads up to check the connection on the BT side of the Master box, if I ask him nicely he may even check the other end as well.

Will this damnable heat never end...............
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: kitz on July 21, 2006, 10:32:56 AM
>>> they are due for replacement soon having reached the end of their expected life.

Thats some good news although it does depend on if BT have set a time frame for the work.

>> check the connection on the BT side of the Master box, if I ask him nicely he may even check the other end as well.
 
wont do any harm ;)


>> 67,bbvvvvvvvvvvv (that last bit of nonsense was the cat).
meiow to feliscatus' cat (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.emotionless.co.uk%2Femotes%2Fanimal%2Fcat_hi.gif&hash=460475f3083e964d0e5e9b3e832588ec)

>> Will this damnable heat never end

Seems a bit better here today - although its perhaps still a bit too early to say - however the past week or so has been stifling.
Im normally a sun lover.... but not the past few days (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.emotionless.co.uk%2Femotes%2Fsundry%2Fsun2.gif&hash=9476e349807b09c2e50b8b39376038d2)
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: feliscatusx2 on July 21, 2006, 11:11:41 AM
You have to say Hello to both cats, otherwise one will sulk.  So I lied on your behalf.

Overcast here today but the temp is still 92F (I can't be having with all this metric nonsense, ask any engineer which system of measurement he would rather work in).

Thunderstorms promised for later, lovely, I do enjoy a good storm.

SNR 15
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: Astral on July 21, 2006, 11:23:48 AM
Quote
I do enjoy a good storm


Can do wonders for your line stats. :lol:

Direct hit on exchange could accelerate maintenance program. :twisted:
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: kitz on July 21, 2006, 11:37:25 AM
eke at thunderstorms forecast. (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.emotionless.co.uk%2Femotes%2Fsundry%2Flightningbolt.gif&hash=f4b6343a6adb252b3f4c893e23c05d12)

oh myyyyyyyyyyy  this is going to be fun for those users on max dsl and marginal lines.

Lets hope that the new changes that BT put into effect a couple of weeks ago work regarding DLM...  or theres going to be a heck of a few pple saying *whys my speed gone to pot*  :roll:

---------

ps hello to both puddy tats.
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.emotionless.co.uk%2Femotes%2Fanimal%2Fpur11.gif&hash=15e2154983875fd151b61cbbbc3a1c1f)
Title: BT Phone wiring
Post by: feliscatusx2 on July 21, 2006, 07:52:08 PM
Young cat says Hi.  Older cat says "Grump"

Older cat is one third long haired fat black female, one third Paranoid schizophrenic and one third Vampire.


Young cat is sort of black Siamese, and, for us, fairly normal.
Title: Re: BT Phone wiring
Post by: feliscatusx2 on September 06, 2006, 02:49:22 PM
BT pushed a note through the door this am to say that they will be replacing our telephone pole.  Well whoopee.  The note goes on to say that where the drop line is in anyway suspect (this could be arranged) they will replace that as well.

When, and if, they arrive I might ask nicely if they would check the wires going into the master socket, assuming that the drop line is OK.  The local BT boys mentioned earlier are either on permament 24hr shifts or have gone somewhere exotic for their hols.
Title: Re: BT Phone wiring
Post by: soms on September 10, 2006, 10:30:21 PM
Quote
BT pushed a note through the door this am to say that they will be replacing our telephone pole.  Well whoopee.

As unimportant as it might seem, it is a alot of effort replacing a pole lol.
I recently became a BT apprentice and have seen some of the equipment and seen some of the training (done some ladder training) not that i will be working on the access network.

Apparently the telephone network doesn't make much money (its data and big business that brings in the money) so the fact it is maintained is not a bad thing, especially if they do look out for any drop wire problems when making the change.

Most of the pole replacement is to do with height regulations in certain areas as much as renewal programme for old/rotten posts etc. There have been a few serious accidents resulting from low cables.

Unfortunately the more recent distribution cable stays are pretty ugly things - being totally random there. Not that it is important to most people.