Kitz Forum
Chat => Tech Chat => Topic started by: tickmike on July 07, 2007, 12:30:14 AM
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What's your views on 'Part P' of the Building Regulations - Electrical Safety ?.
These Regulations are an insult to people like me who spent years at collage to become qualified as a electrician then electrical engineer then electrical scientist.( now taking it easy).
The new regulations say you have to be 'Competent Person' . :no: It can cost £2000 to register !.
There seems to be allot of bad feeling from qualified people that you not supposed to even do any electrical work in your own home with out informing the local council ! (ok there is a small number of things you can do)
for example, all the following would now require the involvement of the building control officer:
* Wiring hi-fi loudspeakers in your garden
* Installing an ethernet network point in your kitchen (maximum voltage -- 0.8 volts!)
* Putting lights on your garden (the only garden lighting that is exempt is `pre-assembled CE-marked sets)
* Running a telephone cable under your bathroom floor
I found these site very interesting. http://www.kevinboone.com/partp.html
http://wiki.diynot.com/electrics:part_p:diy_electrical_work_and_the_law
Building Regulations
Part P - Electrical Safety
From 1 January 2005 the design, installation,
inspection and testing of electrical installations will
be controlled under the Building Regulations.
The new Part P will apply mainly to dwelling houses
and flats including gardens and outbuildings such as
sheds, detached garages and green houses.
Small jobs such as provision of a socket-outlet
or a light switch on an existing circuit will not need
to be notified to Building Control (although there
will be some exceptions for high risk areas such as
kitchens and bathrooms).
All work that involves adding a new circuit to
a dwelling, or electrical work in kitchens and
bathrooms or in ‘special locations’ (see table) will
need to be either notified to Building Control with a
building regulation application, or carried out by a
competent person who is registered with a Part P
Self Certification Scheme.
There are two routes available to applicants to
ensure they comply with Part P:-
1. Use an electrician/installer who is registered
with a Competent Person’s Scheme, in which case
a building regulation application will not be
required for the electrical work. We would strongly
encourage the use of electricians/installers who are
part of a Competent Person’s Scheme.
2. Submit a Building Regulation application to a
Local Authority:
A. Where an electrician registered with a
recognised trade body such as NICEIC, ECA & NAPIT
(who need not be registered under a competent
person’s scheme) tests the work and issues a
design, installation and test certificate under
BS7671. Building Control will accept the certificate
as evidence that the work complies with Part P.
Additional inspections by Building Control may also
be carried out in conjunction with the acceptance
of a certificate (a list of those electricians
competent to inspect and test will be available on
the internet at labc-services.co.uk. or from organisations
participating in full-scope schemes).
B. Where the work is carried out by an
unregistered electrician or is a DIY installation, the
applicant is required to have the work inspected
and tested by a registered electrician as in A above.
The diagram below shows the various routes to
ensure Part P compliance:
To notify or not that is the question?
Except as identified in the chart opposite (continued
overleaf), notifcation of proposals to carry out
electrical installation will be given to a building
control body before work begins, unless the work is
undertaken by a person registered with a Part P self
certification scheme.
Whether or not work is notifiable is dependant on
the naure of installation work proposed and its
location within a dwelling. The location is
important because some special installations or
locations, such as kitchens and bathrooms, may pose
a greater risk to people.
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Seems OTT if you ask me.
The registration seems very steep. There must be literally loads of people who are more than competant of carrrying out some of these tasks yet would be put of by the registration fee.
I can see both sides of this ie regulation of some of the horrific cowboy stories you see on tv etc..
but the downside is the cost to the home users wanting a smallish job done at a reasonable cost.
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It's just another badly thought out government scheme to conform with EEC detectives again.
On one government web site ( for the local councils to look on ) it says they should not charge for the inspections.
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I knew there was a reason why I gave up the contracting side of work (apart from early retirement that is)
too many rules and regs to allow the small worker to get on with work "safely".
I did consider once about registering with NICEIC, but to be honest it was just far too expensive just to be able to hand out a certificate, "basically, it's one BIG money making rip-off".
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It's another badly thought-out bit of legislation to fix a non-existent problem. There's no evidence that amateur electrical work is responsible for a significant proportion of electrical accidents - nearly all of them are the result of shoddy 'professional' work. It seems to me that there's an argument for regulating professionals, but no argument for regulating amateurs.
There's a somewhat similar situation with gas installations (which are potentially much more dangerous). Professional gas work must be done by a Corgi-registered installer, but amateur gas work is still permitted in theory at least.
By the way, are you sure that things like ethernet connections are covered? I have the distinct feeling that the regs divide voltage up into ranges - LV, HV, EHV, etc. and the regs you quote only apply to HV (high voltage) which starts at 50V or thereabouts.
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I did know about this, Son in Law installs aircon and had to jump through various hoops just so he can arrange a power supply (13 Amp socket in most cases).
At the moment I am replacing 2 double sockets that are spurred off the ring main, adding a 3rd Double and a Fused Connection unit, all of which will be wired properly as part of the ring, with the metal boxes earthed and all earths sleeved, which was not the case with the original sockets. And no, I didn't do these.
I have a reel of 2.5mm cable in the loft, this is new but nicely grubby, the Sockets are the older MK square edged types that you can't get any more; so if anybody asks: "It's been done for years Squire".
We have a very good local electrical shop, the owner reckons that the whole thing is a complete nonsense and is almost totaly ignored.
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I have a reel of 2.5mm cable in the loft, this is new but nicely grubby,
I hope it's the NEW coloured cable "Blue & Brown" and not the old Red & Black. :lol:
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It's the good old red/black. If anybody asks I've never seen it before, and I'm also the only person in the world who is Blue/Brown colour blind
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Reminds me of the days when the wiring colours changed. A friend of mine used remind himself which was the live wire by saying, "if you touch the brown wire, you'll carp yourself!".
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lol - good way to remember
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Reminds me of the days when the wiring colours changed. A friend of mine used remind himself which was the live wire by saying, "if you touch the brown wire, you'll carp yourself!".
I think I might of known your friend, was he the one with the bad memory and frizzy hair. :lol:
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It's another badly thought-out bit of legislation to fix a non-existent problem. There's no evidence that amateur electrical work is responsible for a significant proportion of electrical accidents - nearly all of them are the result of shoddy 'professional' work. It seems to me that there's an argument for regulating professionals, but no argument for regulating amateurs.
There's a somewhat similar situation with gas installations (which are potentially much more dangerous). Professional gas work must be done by a Corgi-registered installer, but amateur gas work is still permitted in theory at least.
By the way, are you sure that things like ethernet connections are covered? I have the distinct feeling that the regs divide voltage up into ranges - LV, HV, EHV, etc. and the regs you quote only apply to HV (high voltage) which starts at 50V or thereabouts.
The International Electrotechnical Commission defines extra low voltage (<50 V AC or <120 V DC) circuits.
Low voltage as any voltage in the range 50–1000 V AC or 120–1500 V DC.
High voltage circuits as those with more than 1000 V for alternating current and at least 1500 V for direct current,
Extra high voltage (EHV) refers to an electric potential difference as great as 275,000
I'm installing my own central heating boiler ;) now we have gas in our lane (when my wife and I first built this house 20 years a go there was no gas in this part of our village.).
Is it legal to do DIY work on gas? From http://www.makewrite.demon.co.uk/GasFitting.html
In short, yes it is, but only if you are competent to do so.
Regulation 3 (1) effectively says that anyone who works on gas must be competent. Regulation 3 (3) effectively says that anyone who is rewarded for gas work (in money or otherwise) must be registered with CORGI. The guidance notes published along with the laws state that level of competence must match the work being done.
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Below is copied from the
Statutory Instrument 2004 No. 3210
The Building (Amendment) (No.3) Regulations 2004
PART P OF SCHEDULE 1 TO THE BUILDING REGULATIONS 2000, ADDED BY THESE REGULATIONS
"Requirement Limits on application
PART P ELECTRICAL SAFETY
Design, installation, inspection and testing
P1 Reasonable provision shall be made in the design, installation, inspection and testing of electrical installations in order to protect persons from fire or injury. The requirements of this Part apply only to electrical installations that are intended to operate at low or extra-low voltage and are -
(a) in a dwelling;
(b) in the common parts of a building serving one or more dwellings, but excluding power supplies to lifts;
(c) in a building that receives its electricity from a source located within or shared with a dwelling; or
(d) in a garden or in or on land associated with a building where the electricity is from a source located within or shared with a dwelling."
Provision of information
P2 Sufficient information shall be provided so that persons wishing to operate, maintain or alter an electrical installation can do so with reasonable safety
PART 2
NEW SCHEDULE 2B TO THE BUILDING REGULATIONS 2000
" SCHEDULE 2B
Regulation 12(5)
DESCRIPTIONS OF WORK WHERE NO BUILDING NOTICE OR DEPOSIT OF FULL PLANS REQUIRED
1. Work consisting of -
(a) replacing any socket-outlet, control switch or ceiling rose;
(b) replacing a damaged cable for a single circuit only;
(c) re-fixing or replacing enclosures of existing installation components, where the circuit protective measures are unaffected;
(d) providing mechanical protection to an existing fixed installation, where the circuit protective measures and current carrying capacity of conductors are unaffected by the increased thermal insulation.
2. Work which -
(a) is not in a kitchen, or a special location,
(b) does not involve work on a special installation, and
(c) consists of -
(i) adding light fittings and switches to an existing circuit;
(ii) adding socket outlets and fused spurs to an existing ring or radial circuit; or
(iii) installing or upgrading main or supplementary equipotential bonding.
3. Work on -
(a) telephone wiring or extra-low voltage wiring for the purposes of communications, information technology, signalling, control and similar purposes, where the wiring is not in a special location;
(b) equipment associated with the wiring referred to in sub-paragraph (a).
4. For the purposes of this Schedule -
"kitchen" means a room or part of a room which contains a sink and food preparation facilities;
"special installation" means an electric floor or ceiling heating system, a garden lighting or electric power installation, an electricity generator, or an extra-low voltage lighting system which is not a pre-assembled lighting set bearing the CE marking referred to in regulation 9 of the Electrical Equipment (Safety) Regulations 1994[14]; and
"special location" means a location within the limits of the relevant zones specified for a bath, a shower, a swimming or paddling pool or a hot air sauna in the Wiring Regulations, sixteenth edition, published by the Institution of Electrical Engineers
See 3 a & b re 'ethernet connections'
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My problem with these regs is that I have just got Planning permission to build a holiday flat instead of building a workshop above my garage.
It's going to be tricky to explain that all the electrics were in place before 1st jan 2005 when the regs came in.!, being I'm only just putting the roof on and I will have too apply for Building regulation permission for the new work.
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Reminds me of the days when the wiring colours changed. A friend of mine used remind himself which was the live wire by saying, "if you touch the brown wire, you'll carp yourself!".
I just hold each wire in turn while holding on to a metal water tap, and when I find the 'Live' wire my eyes light up. :'(
Don't tell me I have been doing this wrong all these years. :lol:
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Is it legal to do DIY work on gas?
In short, yes it is, but only if you are competent to do so.
I think you may also find in the small print, that before it is "commissioned" (switched on) that it is checked and a CORGI certificate issued.
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Reminds me of the days when the wiring colours changed. A friend of mine used remind himself which was the live wire by saying, "if you touch the brown wire, you'll carp yourself!".
I remember that when learning to wire a plug with the new colours, the BRown goes to the Bottom Right pin, and the BLue to the Bottom Left pin. Then the spare wire goes to the unused pin... oh the lost joys of buying a new appliance and having to fix the plug onto it. The number of times I've done it and forgotten to replace the fuse don't even bear thinking about.
BTW is anyone here also old enough to also remember the old 2-amp, 5-amp and 15-amp sockets that took different sized round pin plugs?
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BTW is anyone here also old enough to also remember the old 2-amp, 5-amp and 15-amp sockets that took different sized round pin plugs?
You can still buy some of these, notably 3 or 5 amp plugs and sockets, as they are apparently commonly used with stage lighting and so forth so that only the desired equipment can be connected to the mains.
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BTW is anyone here also old enough to also remember the old 2-amp, 5-amp and 15-amp sockets that took different sized round pin plugs?
I'm old enough to remember gas lighting and small boys climbing up chimneys. :lol:
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Yes I remember them well, horrible things.
I work on the principle that if you touch the brown wire you may well s**t yourself :-X.
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BTW is anyone here also old enough to also remember the old 2-amp, 5-amp and 15-amp sockets that took different sized round pin plugs?
Yes I remember the 2,5,and 15 amp plugs and sockets well, When I first went to college We practised wiring with VIR cable (vulcanised India rubber ) and lead sheath cables and practised wiping a lead join for joining two lead water pipes together, while a lot of the students were having difficulty in doing this the lecturer wanted to know how I found it so easy to do, then I told him how my father had taught me lots of DIY skills from an early age.
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while a lot of the students were having difficulty in doing this the lecturer wanted to know how I found it so easy to do, then I told him how my father had taught me lots of DIY skills from an early age.
When asked the same question by my lecturer I just told him, I was just naturally brilliant. :lol:
I once came across some very strange sockets in Macclesfield I think it was.
Two round pins with a off-set horizontal oblong pin in the centre ( O-O ) the centre pin was not right at the bottom though.
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So I guess that the ceiling spots that I have installed in my kitchen and refurbised bathroom are totally illegal.
I went to a local supplier who told me that the cable I should use to wire up these 50watt halogen lights must be that terrible stiff single strand copper. Have you ever tried working with that. Wired up 8 spots and 3 did not work, checked each one and found that the wire had snapped where it went into the connector. This kept happening as I had to connect up then bend the wire round to tidy it up. In the end had a root in my garage and found a coil of the old fashioned multi strand cable. If it was good enough for my father then it will do for me and **** to the regulations...
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Naughty Ralph.
I would say that you were nipping the cable each time you stripped it. Strippers Wire No 2 (ex-BT) do the job nicely for me, without much chance of nicking the cable.
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without much chance of nicking the cable.
:o :o Squeezy, you don't NIK things do you :lol:
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Naughty Ralph.
I would say that you were nipping the cable each time you stripped it. Strippers Wire No 2 (ex-BT) do the job nicely for me, without much chance of nicking the cable.
I thought at first thats what I was doing so I changed to a proper wire stripping tool and still had problems...
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Man I feel old tonight ! I can remember when a man lit the gas mantles in the street lights in the evening using a long pole thingy that gave off acetylene gas ::)
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Does anyone remember the chap who used to appear in the early morning hours with a long pole to tap on the upstairs windows to waken people ...I think he was given the, now dubious, title of 'the knocker up' :lol: I remember that and I think I must have been about 8 or 9 years old...or perhaps even younger :o
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Have you ever tried working with that.
All the time when I was an Electrician !.
Wired up 8 spots and 3 did not work, checked each one and found that the wire had snapped where it went into the connector.
If you want to strip the insulation off the end of any cable you can just use a pen knife, but you use it like you are going to "Sharpen" a pencil at an angle and not at right angles to the cable, then you do not 'nick' the copper core if you go through the insulation, your knife blade should run along the copper and not nick it.
When you try to cut through it at right angle's, if you go through the insulation when you cut it and into the copper that's when you 'nick' it and weaken it, Then you only have to bend it near the 'nick' and it brakes off.
In the end had a root in my garage and found a coil of the old fashioned multi strand cable.
How old is it are your sure it's not perished ?.
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without much chance of nicking the cable.
:o :o Squeezy, you don't NIK things do you :lol:
Perish the thought Kate.
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Very funny... but a bit near the knuckle for these forums which are read by minors too.
Gentle reminder to bear that in mind and keep it clean please guys. :)
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Very funny... but a bit near the knuckle for these forums which are read by minors too.
Gentle reminder to bear that in mind and keep it clean please guys. :)
Near the knuckle? How? It was just an oblique reference to Nik (as in the username).
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The 'near the knuckle' description referred to an earlier message, not yours Dave. You can relax. :)
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The 'near the knuckle' description referred to an earlier message, not yours Dave. You can relax. :)
I think I see the offending one now. I'm innocent! (Hooray)
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[Content removed by moderator]
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Nope not yours accordion youre in the clear. :D
I'd deliberately not quoted the orginal post so as not to highlight it. Yes it was a kind of cleverish play on words which is why I'd turned a blind eye and left it there in the first place, with a reminder to keep it clean.
It really was just a gentle reminder, that I didnt want it going any further as there are kids that read these forums.
However highlighting it again in another post wasnt perhaps a good idea and therefore its been removed.
Please be aware that moderating is a hard task as you quite often have to try and please 2 sides, which isnt ever always going to be possible.
I dont want over moderation of the forums so that you cant have a laugh.. but also you do have to bear in mind that this is a family friendly orientated form. I also dont want this forum to become so lax in moderation that it turns into a field day for all.. so we have to draw a line some where. My own personal guideline would be if the along the lines of the BBC watershed.