Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: sqwim on September 19, 2009, 06:52:49 PM
-
Good site, lots of useful info.
I'm with Tiscali (I pay line rental to Tiscali too, not BT) , have a Netgear DG834G v3 and a problem with noise. I'm wanting to find out how much fluctuation in the downstream noise margin is acceptable and what might be considered a line fault.
I'm using the master socket, I've checked the filters, I've checked the cable, I've tried the latest (and the not so latest ) firmware for the router. I've tried a different Netgear DG834G router. None have fixed the issue.
My usual line stats are:
Down Up
Connection speed: 5200 kbps - 6200kps ish 448 kbps
Line Attenuation: 43 db 12 db
Noise margin: ?? db (see below) 22 db
The ?? is the problem. I've used RouterStats to log the stats over a number of weeks now and all the other stats remain resolutely static come what may but the downstream noise margin can fluctuate widely. During the day (weekday or weekend) it will typically remain fairly consistent between about 12 + 6 db until usually around 7-9pm at which point it will fluctuate far more, eventually hitting 0 at which point the router will usually drop the connection and the the noise margin will stick at something like -214000000 (this seems to be a known problem with the Netgear DG834G routers - I don't think the issue is the router(s) though, I just think the noise margin should never get that low!). It doesn't matter what connection speed I have, this happens even with the lower connection speeds.
I'm assuming this is a problem with noise on the line at these times of the day, pretty much always in the evening. What I'd like to know is how much noise margin fluctuation is acceptable (I appreciate I have to expect some) before this is considered a line fault and I can reliably get an engineer out to fix without risking them charging me as they will come during the day when the problem doesn't happen?! Is this something I should take up with my line provider, Tiscali? How likely are they to actually fix it? I assume there are some spare pairs available, but would this fix it?
I attach a few examples of the issue, showing a relatively consistent noise margin starting to fluctuate and cause problems. I'd appreciate any advice.
Thanks
Sqwim
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Hi and welcome
No, that's not normal. It looks like an intermittent line fault (high resistance fault) probably, although it could be electrical interference from some possibly malfunctioning equipment.
There's a lot of general advice on noise problems here (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/lowSNR.htm) but in the first instance there are a couple of simple things you can check:
1. When the noise margin graph is fluctuating wildly, can you hear any crackles or hiss on the phone? If so this would tend to confirm the theory that it's a line fault. You should report it to your phone provider as a voice fault. With BT you would dial 151 to do this, but I'm not sure if that number still applies when you pay the line rental to another company.
2. If you have a normal NTE5 master socket (see the link I mentioned above) you can connect your router and a phone via a microfilter to the test socket. This eliminates extension wiring from the connection, just to make sure that the problem isn't due to a fault in your internal wiring.
-
but I'm not sure if that number still applies when you pay the line rental to another company.
Following on to Eric's post, you need to report this to Tiscali Talk on 0871 222 3311.
With previous experience of Telephone outages they tend to fix them within 24hours.
If you have any crackling on the line as Eric says report it immediately to the number above.
Let us know how you get on :)
-
This is not normal.....I'm on Tiscali LLU and am having similar issues....posted here:-
http://www.dslzoneuk.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=25&t=17306&sid=ed2f96253b9fea446f20ca55c27a8198&start=0
and 'coz it's intermittent, it's turning into a bit of a saga :(
p.s. that's nothing against the guys on this site, it was just I was on there when I felt like ranting.......
-
Firstly, thanks for the replies folks.
I have been connected to nothing but the test socket behind the master telephone socket for the last 3 months whilst investigating this issue and have exactly the same problem as when I am not, so can rule out out the house wiring.
I have not been able to discern any crackles or hisses on the phone line when the problem occurs. It sounds, to my ears, just like it does when the problem is not occurring. What's the best way to conduct a quiet line test? Advice I have seen seems to indicate dialling 17070 and then option 2 but all I get is a computer confirming the line number and then hanging up.
I've tested absolutely every electrical device in the house that we might use during the evening (when the problem occurs) and not one has any effect on the noise stats. If it's looking like the problem might REIN related and is out of my control (street lighting for example), what's my best bet moving forwards? I assume Tiscali are unlikely to have any sway in getting the council to change their lights?! Can they change the connection to see if I get exactly the same problem with a different pair, thus confirming REIN? Would they charge me for that or do I stand a chance of them doing this to assist my investigations?
Is an NTE5 ADSL faceplate likely to deal with / filter the noise better than the micro filters I'm currently using which came with the various broadband installations I've had over the years (even though the problem does not appear to be with the house wiring)? If it is, does anyone have any advice on which the best ADSL faceplate is?
Thanks again
Sqwim
-
Having thought about this, and in addition to the questions in my last post, I'm after a point of clarification about REIN.
Does the interference affect my router, the line delivering ADSL to my house or both? Some advice seems to indicate that it's my router it's affecting which means, I assume, that I should be able to shield it in some way (yes, that probably wouldn't help with my wireless connection!). Is this the case? Or is it just as (or more) likely to be affecting the phone line itself?
Sorry, questions, questions!
-
Hi
quote (I pay line rental to Tiscali too, not BT) ,
That is probably the reason you don't manage to do quiet line test . Check with tiscali to see if they have a number .
Regards Jeff
-
Having thought about this, and in addition to the questions in my last post, I'm after a point of clarification about REIN.
Does the interference affect my router, the line delivering ADSL to my house or both? Some advice seems to indicate that it's my router it's affecting which means, I assume, that I should be able to shield it in some way (yes, that probably wouldn't help with my wireless connection!). Is this the case? Or is it just as (or more) likely to be affecting the phone line itself?
Sorry, questions, questions!
REIN is electrical impulse noise which can be picked up anywhere between the exchange and you. It could be picked up directly by the router, but I would say that's the least likely possibility. Far more likely is that it's picked up by wiring, either your own extension wiring, or the incoming phone cable.
-
Well, I've finally reported it to Tiscali so we'll see what they make of it (and how they handle it, I've got past the first 'follow the script' stage and they've escalated it to Tier 2).
Interestingly, today (Saturday) the noise margin was pretty steady betweeb 8-10 db from 10:00 till 16:34 when there was a sudden drop to 3db where it remained until 17:21 when it dropped to 0 and the router was restarted. However, following the restart it has been steady at 8-10 db again. Why would that happen? Why would a router restart 'reset' the noise margin straight back to a steady 10 db when previously it was at 3 db (until it hit 0)?
So to today's noise margin summary:
10:00 - 16:34 - 8-10 db
16:34 - 17:21 - 3-4 db
17:21 - 0 db and router restarted
17:23 - 18:34 - 8-10 db
18:34 onwards - started wildly fluctuating, will do so until the morning (7-8am ish) hitting 0 numerous times.
Cheers
Sqwim
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Hi
quote Why would a router restart 'reset' the noise margin straight back to a steady 10 db when previously it was at 3 db (until it hit 0)?
If it lost synch then the router renegotiates with the DSLAM using your Target SNR .Usually with a loss of synch speed ,if the noise that caused the resynch is present . If the problem has cleared then it will resynch at similar speed .
Regards Jeff
-
Hi,
Your examples are somewhat similar to my own experience with a DG834v2 which like your v3 has a TI chipset.
In June I changed to an ST546 with a Broadcom chipset, and this reduced the wildest excursions, although my SNR Margin is still pretty wild.
I've been logging SNR Margin since January here: http://pgg999.co.uk/stats/st546.html (http://pgg999.co.uk/stats/st546.html)
If you take a look at June, the first half of the month with the TI chipset is a bit like your logs. The second half is quieter using the Broadcom chipset.
This comparison might also be of interest: http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/misc/routers/compare.htm (http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/misc/routers/compare.htm)
Cheers,
Peter
PS - In the last week discovered that some step changes of > 3dB in SNR Margin were due to my son's PC
being switched on or off. Installing a new PSU fixed the problem.
-
Thanks for the replies, I may well have to investigate a more tolerant router. It just seems a pity as that router on other lines I've tested it on definitely does not have a problem - the SNR would remain rock steady with 2-3 db variance over 3 days of continuous testing.
On my line however, it's a completely different matter. I have been in contact with Tiscali support who eventually tried setting the SNR to 17 (and thus my bandwidth down to <2Mb!) to test - the fluctuations ranged from 26db down to 1db - a 25db range! Again, the problem seems to be mainly between 7pm & 7am, although I do get severe SNR drops down to close to the problem 0db during the day from time to time also.
I explained that I'm not happy with 2Mb bandwidth and that even with that high SNR setting it will, soon enough, hit 0db and cause the problem (it had already got as low as 1db). They've put me on an 'Adaptive1' profile to test for 48 hours but it's just as bad as the 'Standard' profile, the SNR varies wildly and eventually affects the router.
Tiscali have been pretty rubbish really, their support representatives speak heavily accented English over a pretty poor line (their end) and seem insistent on telling me that 'SNR doesn't matter, it can even go negative, as long as there is a connection'. Should I really have to put up with a line that has a 25db variance in SNR?
Anyone have any tips on how to get Tiscali to actually investigate / fix this?
Thanks
-
Hi
quote Anyone have any tips on how to get Tiscali to actually investigate / fix this?
The only way is to escalate to their TOP guys .Tiscali have (had) a 3rd level of help UK based . They were clued up and helpful .
this was the guy in charge ,but may not be there now . Richard.Lawrence@uk.tiscali.com
-
So it is reasonable to expect a line which does not have a 25db fluctuation and I should complain further on the grounds that the fluctuations mean 0db is reached on a regular basis which causes problems with the router?
What would an acceptable fluctuation range be?
Thanks
-
hi
quote What would an acceptable fluctuation range be?
Its a bit like asking "how long is a piece of string".
In an ideal world no variation. In the real world then the norm MIGHT be that the SNR margin would gradually drop as more noise comes on line say during evenings during busy periods that change may be 3 to 4db . It should not be so large and rapid as to cause loss of synch. You would not expect large spikes (REIN).The problem is how to find the cause .I have a similar pattern to yours the main thing is that the steps are about 3db max . see below
the first one covers most of a day ,the second is the last 4HRS showing a gradual decline .
I have a target margin because of a problem a few months ago . So a 3 to 4db drop does not affect me . Your steps are much more extreme . You seem to have 2 conditions a definite step that drops your SNR margin that suggests something switching and a very spiky trace that looks like some general noise REIN ?
Sorry can't be specific as to what is acceptable .
Regards Jeff
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
There's no simple answer as to what is an acceptable variation in noise margin, but large short term variations such as seen in the graphs you showed us earlier are definitely not normal. They indicate either a line fault or REIN. Changing your router won't have any significant effect on such large variations - it's not likely to be a router fault.
There's a lot of information about REIN here (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm) and this may help you find the source if this is the problem. If it's a line fault then you're in Tiscali's hands.
-
Thanks for the continued replies, it's good to get this sort of advice - pity it never seems to come from the ISP!
If the problem is REIN then it's somewhere between my test socket and the exchange - I have checked EVERY electrical item in the house to no avail, I've checked 612 khz with a portable radio and there's no interference I can discern that would affect the router. If this is the case then there's presumably little I, or Tiscali, can do about it (is there??) and I may have to find some way of living with it.
However... before coming to that conclusion I'd like to find some way of having Tiscali prove to me that it isn't a line fault. Is that realistic? Am I likely to have success? How do I best do it? Am I best writing an email to the top chap of what used to be 3rd level support and asking for assistance?!
Many thanks
-
You have obviously been doing observations for an extended period, but when doing so have you continued for say 30 minutes at a time?.
Have you tried the usuals:-
17070 Option 2 Quiet line test and check the noise using Routerstats
Making an ordinary call and ditto
17070 Option 1 and ditto
(The Options might not work if you have a LLU connection though.)
Kind regards,
Walter
-
Yes, I have sampling for the last week or so solid at 5 second intervals with RouterStats. The problem is generally very bad between about 7pm and 7am and far more stable outside of those times. However, this is a very general rule, I have seen the fluctuations and large SNR drops throughout the day and the start / finish times of the 'bad' period can differ by hours on occasion.
As you mention I haven't been able to get 17070 > options to work on my line (non BT), Tiscali do not seem to have such a service. When asked their support team knew nothing about it (not on the script?!). However, when making ordinary calls there is no effect on the SNR according to RouterStats.
-
my guess is, if the fluctuation can be smokescreened by a 15db noise margin and/or interleaving then it wont be considered a fault by some isps and in particular BTw. The exception would be if the noise fluctuation causes the synch to drop below fault threshold on a regular basis.
-
This is sooo similar to the problem I'm currently having, again with a tiscali LLU line. You may get more joy by using the tiscali forums here:-
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/forums/index.php?s=1ea0cb008f527fcd8e0be4c40b2ecbf4&
although, I just sent them around 30 hrs-worth of SNRM data from DMT, and don't think they actually understand what the issue is....AND they keep wanting to change my profile to 256k upload to try and solve the problem :(
-
Interestingly when Tiscali called me back today they tested the line and said they could actually detect a voice fault on it, a very low level constant background hum that I had assumed was just normal (as there were no crackles, hisses etc). They escalated it to BT OR and, impressivley, they started looking into it 30 minutes later, chap called, tested things, turned up and found that just outside the house (otherside of the wall to the NTE5) there was a damp joint causing the problem. He fixed that, confirmed no voice fault. Brought out his HAWK, ran a good few tests and said the line was coming back with no errors. Fair play to him, he was a nice chap, here for a good while, put some effort in and seems to have made the line a little more quiet for voice.
HOWEVER, SNR on the line is still very eratic and probably worse this evening than it has been for a while (see attached). Unfortunately when he was here it was early enough that the line was 'reasonable' (not great, fluctuations of 4-5 db but with the starting point high enough (10 db) that SNR didn't get too low (5 db)). Now that evening is upon us it has hit 0 db about 20 time in the last couple of hours.
The BT OR chap said he will call me back tomorrow to see how things are. Obviously I'll tell him it's not fixed but what else, realistically, can I expect him to do? He seemed very willing to help but how far can I push this?!
Thanks
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Quick update, having had a look at the Bits/Tone tab in routerstats, the bits seem to drop off more now thean they have done previously when the line is bad. However, I'm not an expert in reading these things. I've attached a few examples of the Bits/Tone tab.
The first is when the line is OK - pretty good/stable.
The second is when it was WORSE - pretty bad previously.
The third is one just NOW - with the line as bad as it has been for a while.
If anyone can read these things / offer any advice, it'd be very welcome!
Thanks
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Hi
One thing that strikes me as odd is that at the lower frequencies your tones are very heavily loaded 10 to 12 bits that is 30 to 36 db but the snr /tone is only 27 to 35 db. Normally you would expect to have some margin ideally +6db . Just wondering if there is a mask problem . That is where the lower frequencies should have less data to Prevent crosstalk .
I will see if I can find out about masking ,I think I have seen references in Kitz .
See my Bits /tones for comparison.
regards Jeff
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Hi
from Kitz # Notice how the shape of the Bit Allocation (blue lines) correlate to the SNR (grey lines) in the lower table. The yellow lines show the SNR Margin.
# Also note the smooth curves at on the upstream causing a inverted 'U' and also at the beginning of the downstream. This is likely due to spectral masks applied at the DSLAM which ensures that power levels are cut back to reduce the likely hood of cross-talk on those frequencies.
Read more: http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adsl_technology.htm#ixzz0TYn1WhJj (copy and paste for actual extract)
whole page
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adsl_technology.htm
Regards Jeff
-
An update (apologies for the delay)...
Thanks to jefbb who gave a contact address for Richard Lawrence, who appears to be Tiscali's Head of High Level Complaints, in an earlier post I've finally made contact with useful Tiscali support staff based in the UK who have been affording me proper tech support and customer care.
They sent a 'Qube engineer' round to 'test the 'internal configuration'. It turns out a Qube engineer checks you've not done anything stupid with your cabling (I haven't) and insists on providing a new 'Tiscali crippled' router (limited functionality etc) in case the problem is with that (it wasn't I've been using one of two non-crippled non-Tiscali routers). Anyway, since the Thomson TG585 v7 seems better than the Siemens Gigaset they originally sent out to me I thought I'd humour them and stick with it instead of my Netgear's for a while.
The TG585 has an SNR of around 13 db (which seems very high!) and it doesn't seem to fluctuate like the Netgear's does. 'Great' you think, the problem was the router and not the line afterall... not so. The TG585 cannot hold on to the connection at 13db and has to resync at 21db (even higher!) and a far lower speed 3-3500kbps (when behaving itself the line can achieve 5500-6500kbps). The Netgear very rarely actually 'lost' sync, when the SNR hit 0 db it would usually just report an SNR of around -214000000 db and be very slow until a restart. I suspect that whereas the Netgear did that, the TG585 actually loses sync and has to reconnect at a lower speed/higher SNR.
Anyway, today's chat with Tiscali has them telling me that no matter the problems I'm having, as long as the line can connect at over 2Mb without issue (which it can I suppose) they cannot 'make' BT fix the line (unless there's a voice problem, which there isn't).
They have arranged to send out a REIN engineer with special equipment to try and detect any REIN that might be causing the problem. I'm not full of hope as I've already checked whilst using every electrical piece of equipment we have to no avail and there's no discernable pattern that would indicate an electrical item causing the issue (it's generally worse all night and reasonable during the day). It also means that if they do find something it's likely to be outside of my control!
I'm happy about their efforts with the REIN engineer, but a little concerned about the BT line and 2Mb rule. Despite the obvious problems (assuming they are not REIN related) with the line, is it really true that if it can attain and keep a 2Mb connection nothing can be done to fix?
Cheers
Sqwim
-
Hi
As usual they try to bluff .
quote from Kitz "Fault Threshold Rate.
Once your MSR has been set, BTw use this figure to calculate your Fault Threshold Rate which is in the region of 70% of your MSR. BTw will only investigate speed related faults if your speed drops to below the Fault Threshold Level.
Read more: http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/maxdsl2.htm#ixzz0WgfTCVJT
see also http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/maxdsl2.htm
More info to help you argue with them.
Regards Jeff
-
Thanks for the info. From what that page indicates it seems that the MSR (Max Stable Rate) is key here and this is determined from the lowest achieved rate (rounded down to nearest 0.5 Mb) over the initial 10 days of DSL Max synchronisation.
That was months ago, how can I find out what this is?
Certainly if they take the lowest rate over the last 10 days it'll be about 3500 kpbs = 3.42 Mb which rounded down becomes 3 Mb. 70% of which is 2.1 Mb, close the to 2Mb rule they have mentioned. This seems ludicrous when the line can, when behaving itself, connect at over 6000 kbps (5.86 Mb)!
Have I understood things correctly?
How can I find the line's MSR? Do I have to ask Tiscali? I risk them just giving me a figure that means they don't need to do anything!
Thanks
-
Hi Squim,
I think you'll only be able to get the MSR from the dreaded T if they are co-operative.
You'll see here that some will be able to re-train a BT Wholesale line here:-
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,6046.0.html
Kind regards,
Walter
-
Hi
quote From Walter You'll see here that some will be able to re-train a BT Wholesale line here:-
If that is done with a bad line then you will be lumbered . This is my fear about some ISPs they will quickly cotton onto an easy way to avoid having to sort out some problem by doing a retrain so reducing the MSR .
Regards Jeff
-
squim - I would say stick with the tiscali tech support forum guys, and keep providing the info (i.e. your routerstats graphs showing the issue. Eventually I got to have my pair replaced from exchange to enrty point, and my line's been sooo much better since.
Out of interest, the second tiscali-contracted eng bod who came out knew his stuff (unlike the first), and when he plugged his 585v7 into my line (pre-fix, obviously) it wouldn't sync at all !! Never had that problem with my D-Link 2640B. Anyhoo...after he'd done what he could (including getting me on a high-upstream profile from tiscali's Milton Keynes tech support - bonus !!) they got OP LAN eng out next day, who confirmed I needed a replacement line.
Full story here:-
http://www.tiscali.co.uk/forums/showthread.php?t=168871
Also, after reading through other threads on there, if you show you know what you're talking about, you get better support from them :)
Good Luck ;)
-
I would love to have the pair replaced exchange to master socket as I think that is where the problem is but think I'm onto a loser at the moment. The REIN engineer is coming out this evening but I'm not expecting him to find much and then tomorrow I'll have a follow-up chat with Tiscali and, from earlier conversations, since it's connecting at over 2Mb they are unwilling / can't ask BTOR to fix as 2Mb is supposedly deemed fine (and unless my MSR was higher than it would be if taken over the last 10 days, 2.1 Mb may actually be my MSR anyway!). Thus I'm concerned this 'issue' will be closed and consigned to the Tiscali 'we didn't fix it / it was not our problem' bin.
Just seems daft considering that when behaving itself the line can run at 5-6000kbps no problem. Has to be said, recently the issue seems to be occurring pretty much all the time rather than mainly in the evenings as it did previously. I'm wondering whether the weather (v wet recently) is having a negative effect... which of course would indicate (to me at least) that the problem is definitely with the line. I just need some argument to convince Tiscali to consider this and somehow find the evidence they apparently need to get a BTOR engineer out to investigate / replace the pair rather than use this getout clause they seem to have of 2Mb is OK. Ideally by Tuesday or I may find the case closed on me...!
-
OK, REIN engineer has been round and confirmed it does not appear to be a REIN issue. He did ask for more of my RouterStats examples by email though so that he could ask his really technical people tomorrow.
One thing he did spot, that I hadn't (possibly stupidly) considered before is that when I performed a manual restart of the router at 18:48 (see attached pics) after the SNR had been sat at 2db / 5375 ish kbps pretty much all day, it reconnected at about 5250 ish kbps (so only negligibly lower) but rather than with the same SNR of 2db I had a fluctuating SNR of between 0-9 db.
I'd be interested to know what you knowledgeable peeps might interpret this to mean. Is it normal that such a minuscule drop in speed could result in such an unstable SNR compared to the (stupidly low but stable at the time) 2 db SNR that I had beforehand?
Cheers
Sqwim
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Hi
I have seen a similar problem .Where the noise level on the trace increases or decreases after a wan reconnection or reboot . It seems to be independent of the current SNR margin or synch speed . I have been trying to bottom this out for quite awhile . For me its only an irritant as the difference between the NOISY and quiet trace is from +- 0.1 db for the quiet line to +- 0.5db for the noisy line . The other thing is that it does NOT always change. see attach 1 for an example of noise dropping after tweak , and attach 2 where there was no change . I have other examples where its gone the other way, that is where its gone quiet from been noisy.Your line obviously has very much more severe problem. problems
Regards Jeff
edit to remove IP address
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Well I heard from Tiscali today. Apparently they're going to try a Tie Pair change. Seems to me from research on this site that this is likely to be the pair between the MDF and the DSLAM.
Is my understanding correct?
Is it likely to fix the problem?!
Here's hoping...
-
Well apparently the Tie Pair change happened yesterday. I didn't notice it as it hasn't made a jot of difference! Tiscali are trying quite hard to wash their hands of me now, talking about there being nothing more they can do. I stuck to my guns a little and they came back to me saying they would try shifting me to a completely different bit of equipment in a different part of the exchange 'at some point'. What might this mean (it was their complaints chap rather than technical chap talking to me!)?
I did mention that their might be a spare pair in the BT hatch near my NTE5 socket but he went on about rewiring costing thousands. I'd have thought that changing the pair near my NTE5 socket would be fairly painless and would result in a different physical connection all the way to the exchange thus testing that theory?
Is there any way I can:
a) find out which route my cable takes from the exchange to the house?
b) find out of there are any 'spare pairs' available in the BT hatch next to my NTE5 socket (external)? I think the the BTOR chap who came out said there was a spare pair available (but found a problem and fixed it so we didn't go down that route any further).
Finally (I know, all these questions), how do these errors look for 3hrs uptime?
Many thanks
A disheartened Sqwim
-
Hi, I don't suppose anyone can offer advice regarding the red bits in my last post can they?
Also, who or what would store my MSR as they appear only to have provided my current line stats when asked (admittedly via complaints and not technical support). They seem willing to help but I'd like to be furnished with this info so I sound like I know what I'm talking about!
I spoke with Tiscali today who are definitely warming up for the 'this is it, we've done what we can, take it or leave it' conversation at the moment. I'm due to speak with their technical team (as oppose to high level complaints department) tomorrow but suspect if I can't convince them to ask BT to try another pair or inspect various joints (or whatever) then I've hit a dead end...
Many thanks
Sqwim
-
Hi
@squim
quote Finally (I know, all these questions), how do these errors look for 3hrs uptime?
I do not see any stats ?
Regards Jeff
-
squim, how/where have you been dealing with tiscali - on the phone to overseas or via the tech support forum on the web ?? As I mentioned above, I personally think you'd be better dealing with the 'net team in Milton Keynes than Brian in Bangalore on the phone......
-
Jeffbb - sorry, thought I had attached pic, now I can't find it! Will try to find it / get another one. Interestingly, no errors at all on the line at the moment!
GunJack - dealing with UK tech support (I don't know if they are the same people as the net team in MK) via High Level Complaints - they do seem to be trying, and appear to have done as much as possible in the exchange as they can (tie pair change, different DSLAM, 'jiggery pokery'!). Problem seems to be, therefore, the line between home & exchange I guess. Getting them to consider calling BTOR out for that is proving somewhat difficult. I'll be speaking to the tech support people myself tomorrow (cut out the 'complaint' guy who says himself he doesn't know / understand what he's talking about to me). I'd love to be able to persuade them to consider the line, but they seem reluctant.
-
The UK lot you're dealing with should be the MK crowd - did you get a name at all ??
you really need to be showing them the routerstats traces when the fault is apparent, so when you talk to them get an e-mail address and if you've got a support ticket already suggest setting up a thread on the forums to run in parallel, coz it's easier to keep posting your graphs etc. up on there and it also provides a written record of what's been done to date and the like. Mine was handled pertty much exclusively in this way with them phoning me on occasion (and noted on the thread to keep the record intact).
persistence is a good thing, especially when you can prove there's a fault :)
...and good luck !!
-
Just spoken with Tech Support (seems they are not the net team, they said that raising would be downgrading rather than escalating the issue!) - they are pretty adamant that it is a REIN issue outside of our control and that there is nothing more they can do. They said that an environmental issue (water etc) would cause a big change in line attenuation which I am not having. He did at least concede that if the issue clears up in summer and returns next autumn that it might indicate I'm right with regard the line being the issue. I may also try asking my neighbours if I could check their line statistics as we live in a new build close of 10 houses and all the line will have been put in at the same time so should take the same route to the exchange and any REIN would therefore affect their line also.
When asked about the MSR (70% threshold etc) he said that it doesn't work like that with datastream/IPStream or lines that are not fully BT (?!).
Any thoughts? At the moment it looks liek I just need to hope it eaither gets better, or worse to the extent that a fault can reliably be found!
Thanks
-
funny old thing, I'm in a new build also...don't know 'bout yours, but on my estate OR had put a spare pair in from my entry point to the street cab (think they did this on all of them on here) - this was used in my recent line swap, along with a spare pair in the cable bunch from cab to exchange...
-
Hi
quote
When asked about the MSR (70% threshold etc) he said that it doesn't work like that with datastream/IPStream or lines that are not fully BT (?!)
Not sure about datastream but if you are on IPstream (ie not LLU) then it should be the same as any other IPStream users . Perhaps someone else can shed light on this .
Regards Jeff
-
I'm back! I'd given up on this for a bit, as per my earlier post, waiting for dryer & warmer weather to see if that improves the problem on the line so I can take that 'evidence' back to Tiscali to convince them it is not REIN somewhere between house and exchange. However...
A few days ago the missus tells me that the neighbours have had big phone problems - turns out they've had intermittent crackling line for a while and have never got round to doing anything about it (if the phone works and they can connect their laptop up via their USB modem, they're happy!). Recently (very wet weather, possibly relevant, possibly not) it has been getting worse and very recently they've had occasions where the phone did not work at all.
Not had a chance to speak to them yet but a couple of days ago I note that our router has completely dropped the connection. Not just a resync or a temporary droppage, it had lost the connection and had no connection / stats at all. A reboot of the router brought it back up... at about 3500 Kbps and a seemingly fairly stable SNR. I've since run router stats again on the router and the results confirm this. Great, you may think, BUT I used to be able to connect between 5-6000 Kbps and now get nothing nothing more than 3.5-4000 Kbps. I also noted that my bits/tone results are VERY different.
I'm guessing some work has been done to fix the neighbours problem which has caused this. Do you knowledgeable peeps think this might mean something?
A few 'before and after' stats for you are below (and in the next post as I can only post 4 per post it seems). Don't get me wrong, I'm happy to have a stable SNR again, but would like my sync rate back! What do you reckon is going on?
Thanks (again!)
Sqwim
[attachment deleted by admin]
-
Here are the final two stats re the above post:
[attachment deleted by admin]