Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: flip74 on September 04, 2009, 03:04:25 AM
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Hi,
Since early June this year, I have had an issue with my Broadband connection.
First thing I noticed, was that I had lost sync overnight, prior to this, connection was solid, and the Router is set up to Auto Connect, but this time didn't.
Later that day, my sync came back but at a much reduced rate, with a throughput of 160kbps on what should be an 8 Meg ADSL Max service.
Sync was previously at 8128kbps with an average throughput of 5Meg. I'd also noticed that the SNR Margin had risen from it's average of 6dB to 12dB or higher. Attenuation had risen to 37dB about 45dB.
Through the Telephone, I noticed that there was a hissing noise present on the line whilst the Router was synced. With the Router disconnected, the hiss disappeared.
I also noticed that I could force the Router to sync by lifting the handset and that replacing it would cause the router to lose sync, This can be quite random though.
Sync eventually settled at 160 kbps with a throughput of 135kbps or less. As Sync was unable to be maintained for hours let alone the recommended 3 to 5 days, my Internet Profile was unlikely to improve.
As a process of elimination, I ruled out my filter, cable and router as the prime suspects by using replacements. Luckily, I've kept every piece of ADSL gear since I started on Broadband.
Swapping the above, and using different combinations of said above, made no difference to the fault conditions.
Just to be sure though, a new XTE2005 faceplate and Twisted pair ADSL cable were ordered and fitted. No change.
I'd done quite a bit of research of the symptoms, and the fault appeared to be a HR Dis.
By now as I felt there was no more I could do, I contacted my ISP (Fast.co.uk) and after confirming I'd carried out all the basic checks on my side of the NTE5, an Openreach Engineer was arranged to visit.
After one “no show”, another was arranged. But unfortunately for me, he decided it was a faulty filter that was to blame as he said there was sync present. This was despite me mentioning that the sync was unable to be maintained, as well as mentioning it was a brand new filter and also not the only one I'd tried (along with 3 Routers, 1 USB ADSL Modem and numerous cables).
Rather than replace the filter with, he just refitted the alleged faulty and left me with the hissing down the phone and the fault still present.
I'd mentioned about the H.R. Dis, but he didn't want to know. No checks were made of B.T.'s equipment especially the DP at the Pole. And no HAWK was used to check for a potential H.R. Fault.
As a result of this, I face paying a B.T. Openreach call out charge of £150 + VAT, even though the fault is still present.
By now, especially after bad weather, there was now a crackle through the Telephone whilst this was connected to the Test Socket behind the NTE5. So after contacting B.T. Retail, another Openreach Engineer came out. Hurrah! I thought.
But.... He 'discovered' that the original hissing noise which I'd attributed to being because of a H.R. Dis disappeared when my Router was disconnected. Which I believe is yet another symptom of a H.R. Fault as there'd be no Modem/Router on the line to initiate ADSL.
As a result of his in-depth check of pulling the WAN cable out of my Router, he deemed that it was a faulty Router. At which point, I swapped my gear over in front of him and alas the fault was still there.
Again I mentioned a H.R. Fault and again, no checks were made of any B.T. Equipment.
He told me he'd have to run more diagnostics and he'd be back later. He's never been seen again.
So I'm anticipating another £150 + VAT charge, even though the fault is still present.
I've had very little help from my ISP about this. I've even contacted Ian Livingston CEO at B.T. who basically couldn't care less.
I have been monitoring my connection with RouterStats and have enclosed graphs which I hope someone could translate in to something meaningful.
The top one enlosed is after sync had been lost, then regained at 2.5 Mbps until SNR margin dropped to -1 dB (as indicated by the spike of 21 million dBs). Sync was reestablished until again the drop in SNR margin. Nex resync was at 160kbps.
The next one is showing sync at 160 kbps but a SNR Margin of a lot of spikes (or dips of -1db)back to 0db.
If any more info or graphs are required, I'll see what I can do.
Many Thanks,
Phill
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Hi and welcome
You've certainly had a rough deal from BT, and I've every sympathy because I've been through the same situation myself (except that in my case the problem is only intermittent).
The large increase in attenuation is more than I would expect from any cause other than a high resistance fault, so I'm in agreement with you that this is the most probable cause of the problem. As the phone noise isn't present when the router is disconnected, I don't think you'll get any more joy from the telephone side of BT, who have no interest in ADSL problems.
What you need is an SFI engineer who will really work on the problem. They can use a test instrument called a hawk which is capable of working out where on a line the bad joint is, but skill and perseverance is needed, particularly if the fault is some distance from your home. Unfortunately they don't all have the required perseverance (or they aren't allowed to use it).
Your ISP needs to escalate this to a higher technical level in BT Openreach. I don't know how good your ISP is at this sort of thing, but I think it's your only hope of getting a solution. You'll need to stay patient and persuasive, and keep all the facts about what you've done well organised. From your description I think you've done all you can personally to prove that the fault is on the line and not in your home.
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I agree with Roseway, but it may be worth checking to see if you have a bellwire - if you haven't done so already.
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Hi,
Thank you from the replies and the welcome.
I have observed a crackle on the line whilst just a telephone is connected into the NTE5 Test Socket and no ADSL. But typically, it is quite intermittent. I'm convinced that it appears whilst the weather is really bad.
As for my ISP, I can't see them doing anything more unless I pay up for the approx £150 for Openreach's first visit (well should be second visit, but they didn't turn up). This is despite me going through all the tests (filters etc.) that I carried out before contacting them. They don't seem too bothered about my Openreach experience.
I've been told I couldn't pay by cheque; as it would take too long for them to pay B.T., so I'd have to phone with my card details. No statement has been provided and when I asked exactly what Openreach tests were carried out, I was told no list was available.
I've thought about migrating, and have asked for a MAC in an email to them. But this is met with the following:
How do you want to make the payment? Do you want to give me a call to sort it, and we can then get a MAC issued.
Which looks like my MAC is at Ransom! As well as being against OFCOM regulation 1.14.
Again, as there is crackle on the line (not the same noise as when the router is connected up), this is why I'd got back to B.T.
At them moment, after being told by the C.E.O.'s Assistant that she'd stick with me until everything was sorted, it's gone all quiet. From B.T. that is, not my Line!
Whilst running Router Stats, I've observed that:
Having the handset off the hook whilst powering up the Router causes it to sync at a higher sync rate. This usually is lost when the handset is replaced.
Whilst the Router is powered up and then lifting the handset up, causes a steep increase in Rx-Noise. This starts decreasing when the handset is replaced.
Regarding RouterStats, is there anything available in its features that could point to a line fault in the results?
I've basically just been using it to monitor Rx-Sync and Rx-Noise and have only just started dabbling with Telnet features such as Bits/Tone and Bit Swapping.
I've also 'forced' sync by lifting the handset. But this becomes a right pain if I have to keep doing it every 10 minutes or so!
If any more graphs etc. are required, I'd greatly oblige.
As for a Bell Wire, there isn't one connected up. The NTE5 is the only socket I've got, and there are no extensions connected to it.
Once again thanks for the replies, and also thanks to this really useful site.
Phill
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You're certainly right to say that the ISP can't refuse you a MAC while there is a dispute over a charge. It's a shame that you have to move ISP to get a proper service, but it seems pretty clear that the first OR engineer didn't do a proper job, and the ISP needed to escalate it. You need an SFI (Special Faults Investigation) engineer with a hawk to do it properly, and you're in your ISP's hands for getting that arranged.
I don't think that there's any more useful information to be had from Routerstats or anything else. Your descriptions of the symptoms and what you've done to check things seem quite complete to me, and one of the better ISPs should be able to take that forward.
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Hi,
Thanks again.
I'd been advised to migrate to Anderson & Arnold as they are able to take on a line with a fault and sound pretty capable at sorting it out. This is where the MAC problem arose, it's been way longer than 5 working days since I requested one from my ISP.
I thought what I'd do for now is give B.T. a nudge again, as I was told a request had been made to OR for an "End to End Check" which I hope means they'll actually physically examine the line rather than run an automated test which typically for a H.R. problem can pass it as OK.
I'm really cautious about contacting my ISP again as I think they will want paying for the first OR visit before arranging another. And then there's the possibility of not having proper checks done again and yet another £150+ charge.
I've sought advice from the C.A.B. and Trading Standards who advised not to pay anybody anything as adequate tests were not made and the fault remains.
I really think the fault could be at the drop wire from the pole, or maybe I'm just hopeful! I'd have thought as they were going to charge me for the visit, they may as have changed the drop wire as well as the NTE5. Which may have sorted the fault out.
As there is some noise (even intermittently) with just the phone in the 'Test Socket' my ISP say it is a matter for B.T. Arrggghh!!!
Phill
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Certainly does appear to be some sort of HR fault.
Since you have done all the normal checks (and more) then there is a bit of a problem with the £150 fee. Ive known Fast in the past dispute BTs charges and their support is normally better than the average ISP.
They should not however be holding your MAC to ransom and it is in breach of OFCOM regulations if they haven't supplied it within 5 working days.
You appear to be in that unenviable situation where an adsl fault cant be reported if theres an open voice fault and vice-versa. Theres also the possibility that if you call out BT as a voice fault and they dont find anything then another yet charge could be applied from then.
Possibly the best thing to do would be report it as a voice fault and fingers crossed you get a decent OR engineer, and you could very casually drop a few things into the conversation.. along with the tea&biccies / bacon butty trick.
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Hi Kitz,
Thanks for the reply.
I gave B.T. a gentle reminder and have been told the fault has been escalated to Openreach via the consumer repair team.
Hopefully things will start moving in the right direction, but only time will tell.
Tried the tea and biccies both times, but they didn't want any. Maybe it's because we only had Rich Tea and not Hob Nobs ;)
Hopefully if someone else comes out again, then I hope they at least check the wiring on their side of the DP.
Cheers!
Phill
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>> I gave B.T. a gentle reminder and have been told the fault has been escalated to Openreach via the consumer repair team.
:fingers:
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Hello again,
I don't know if this will help, but I've run more tests with Router Stats and obtained the following results.
In the first graph, the rise in Rx-Noise from 7 dB to 19 dB occurred when the telephone is lifted of the hook. This continues fluctuating around 19 - 20 dB until the phone is replaced on the hook, where it drops down to 15 dB.
In the short time I ran the test, the following bit swaps were happening:
Sun 06 Sep 2009 13:23:02: Started
Sun 06 Sep 2009 13:28:31: Bitswap in Tones: 92, 95, 96, 97, 98, 101, 115, 126, 130, 133, 134, 136, 137, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 147, 164, 166, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 178, 179, 182, 184, 187, 189, 190, 191, 192, 195, 200, 224, 227,
Sun 06 Sep 2009 13:29:36: Bitswap in Tones: 95, 96, 97, 98, 115, 126, 130, 133, 134, 136, 137, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 147, 164, 166, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 178, 179, 182, 184, 187, 189, 190, 191, 192, 195, 200, 224, 227,
Sun 06 Sep 2009 13:30:09: Bitswap in Tones: 95, 96, 97, 98, 115, 126, 130, 133, 134, 136, 137, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 147, 164, 166, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 178, 179, 182, 184, 187, 189, 190, 191, 192, 195, 200, 224, 227,
Sun 06 Sep 2009 13:30:12: Bitswap in Tones: 95, 96, 97, 98, 115, 126, 130, 133, 134, 136, 137, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 147, 164, 166, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 178, 179, 182, 184, 187, 189, 190, 191, 192, 195, 200, 224, 227,
Sun 06 Sep 2009 13:31:05: Bitswap in Tones: 95, 96, 97, 98, 115, 126, 130, 133, 134, 136, 137, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 147, 164, 166, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 178, 179, 182, 184, 187, 189, 190, 191, 192, 195, 200, 224, 227,
Sun 06 Sep 2009 13:31:28: Bitswap in Tones: 95, 96, 97, 98, 115, 126, 130, 133, 134, 136, 137, 138, 139, 141, 142, 144, 147, 164, 166, 169, 170, 171, 172, 173, 174, 178, 179, 182, 184, 187, 189, 190, 191, 192, 195, 200, 224, 227,
Sun 06 Sep 2009 13:35:06: Bitswap in Tones: 147, 187,
Sun 06 Sep 2009 13:35:15: Stopped
Don't know if this is of any use, but I'm learning a bit!
Phill
P.S. Thanks Kitz. Great website and forums :thumbs:
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In the first graph, the rise in Rx-Noise from 7 dB to 19 dB occurred when the telephone is lifted of the hook. This continues fluctuating around 19 - 20 dB until the phone is replaced on the hook, where it drops down to 15 dB.
That really does indicate that you would appear to have a HR fault - usually caused by a corroded joint.
From ~ adsl only works when the phone is being used. (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/connectionprobs.htm)
If so - Possibly a fault on the actual phone line perhaps due to worn cables or water on the line.
There may be times when a cable or joint is only slightly damaged/corroded and shows no immediate problem, however the damage is sufficient to increase resistance on the line.
When the phone line is in use, it generates a small electrical current which is needed to carry the voice signal. This current helps reduce resistance on the line and can be sufficient to "bridge the gap" just enough to carry the adsl signal. This is known as a High Open or High Resistance Fault.
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Hi Kitz,
So even though there was sync at 160 kbps at 7 dB, I take it that the increase in noise to ~ 20 dB when the phone is off the hook is off the hook is indicative of a HR fault?
I noticed that with a normal type ADSL cable (non twisted pair) that sync wasn't established until the handset of the phone was lifted. Replacing the handset caused sync loss.
With a combination of an XTE2005 and Twisted Pair cable, sync is less susceptible to loss, but the increase in SNR margin happens whatever.
Phill
Edit: Plus, with just a phone in the test socket, there was quite bit of crackle present. I wonder if this will stick around though!
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Hi
quote Plus, with just a phone in the test socket, there was quite bit of crackle present. I wonder if this will stick around though!
Try reporting VOICE fault to BT on 151 whilst the noise is there . If the operator can hear it then there will be some evidence of the problem.
Regards Jeff
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Still not heard back from B.T. as of yet, but will wait until Friday to give a bit more of a gentle reminder, when I'll be following Trading Standards advice of putting it all in writing and giving B.T. 7 days to sort it out.
Line is still crackly with just a phone in.
In the meantime, I've bought a Speedtouch 585 v6 from eBay so I could have a play with DMT Tools. From which, I got the graph below.
I'm not au fait with DMT Tools, but it definitely doesn't look like the graph on the Kitz website for a healthy line. Maybe somebody can translate it a bit better!
Phill
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It certainly doesnt look right.
Tones 138 to about 300 are only loading minimal bits. On a healthly line you'd expect tones around 200 to show the best bitloading. Theres also lots of gaps much further on. This is why your speed is so poor.
Your 'real SNR' (grey lines) seem to show a slightly better picture - but that curve still is far from right. The best tones should be around 48. Indication is that if you performed a resync when that graph was taken that your sync speed would likely be a tiny better... but at a guess not that much.
If I saw that graph without knowing the history, then my first thought would be filters/internal wiring.. its symtomatic of a line that is getting some sort of EMI. A HR fault can also cause this though.
If that crackle is still there, then as jeff says try reporting it on 151.
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Woke up this morning and my sync was lost again (sounds like I've got the ADSL Blues :rain:)
This was with the ST585v6 and yet again, answering the phone caused a resync with that lovely hissing down the earpiece). Putting the phone down and turning my back on the router for a second... woosh, gone again.
Swapped over to the DG834G which synced almost right away, but I was unable to browse as there was no IP allocated by my ISP. Rebooting made no difference.
Disconnected everything & put a phone in the test socket. Crackle still present.
Connected up a micro filter instead of the XTE2005 as well as the ST585, powered up... and got sync at around 5 Mbps with none (or very little) of that hissing. :wall:
Swapped back to the DG834G, synced at the same rate and no or little noise. Cue more :wall:
Disconnected everything again and placed a phone in the test socket, clear (as far as I can tell)
Put the XTE2005 back from earlier, and synced at the 5 Meg mark. This is with both the DG834G and ST585.
I've had this sort of result before, where things look like they've been sorted out. But within a few days, the fault rears its ugly head again. Typically, my throughput never improves.
Throughput is still at 160 kbps, and I don't think things will improve.
The other thing is, the weather is really pretty good. No rain, unlike yesterday and no wind (well not outside anyway ;))
I think I definitely need someone to actually take a good look at my line.
Phill
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Hi Phil,
I wonder if your screwdriver might just accidentally brush against BT's incoming pair in your NTE5 ?
(It would be highly regrettable and a pure accident of course.)
Kind regards,
Walter
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Hi Walter,
The incoming pair are well out the way (on the rear of BT's property on the NTE5, which I have no intention of touching) and there is no way I could have caught them with my screwdriver.
There seems an quite a lot of spare cable length (colours white/blue and blue/white) which I gather are my A and B. There was nothing connected to the original NTE faceplate. The other 4 wires are way too short to be used as spares.
Everything was working OK from last June, when I fitted the XTE2005, till this June. I have had no reason prior to this fault occurring to remove the XTE2005.
The way my line is wired is:
From the pole, the drop wire comes to the first main master socket which is a non NTE master. My line is using the spare pair of the drop cable, where it has been joint to what looks like CAT5 cable (not twisted) inside the housing of the non NTE socket.
The drop cable for my line goes back outside into the porch (where for some reason the Engineer decided to staple it to the porch door frame / step). I have no idea if this is external grade cable, but it is quite open to the elements.
This then enters my NTE5.
I'd have thought at least, Openreach would have checked the NTE, the non NTE and the drop cables.
Both lines are separate masters.
Phill
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Hi again Phillip,
It does sound as if you have inspected both the cables and their joints quite carefully, which I was hinting would be a good idea. I'm assuming you have two separate phone lines.
Unless you know otherwise, it's not impossible that someone other than a BT engineer has obtained a BT NTE5 and hasn't made a very good job of checking the crimp connectors in the original master socket, or has perhaps either left insulation on the NTE5 screw terminals or left them not fully tightened. If the master sockets have been installed recently I would have expected that the drop cable would probably have been terminated in an external junction box and two separate cables would then feed the two sockets. Ezzer can probably confirm this. I'm intrigued by your description of untwisted Cat 5 cable. Firstly all these types of cable are supposed to be twisted and Cat 5 has four twisted pairs whereas BT cable usually only has three pairs. Unless the cable is brown or black it is probably not external grade cable. Under a porch this is unlikely to be of concern unless it has been damaged by somebody or by the staples.
As your master socket is going through another master there could be a question over the ownership so detailed careful inspection might be useful.
In any event it would be a good thing if BT could check your lines if you can find an excuse for them to do so without charging you their call-out fee.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Hi Walter,
I thought I may have gotten hold of the wrong end of the stick. Apologies if so.
My line was fitted 12 years ago for my Business by B.T. where I also suffered from the infamous DACS. The other master socket (non NTE) was fitted nearly 30 years ago.
The 2 master sockets are both indeed separate lines and numbers. Both are ours, or B.T.'s whichever way you look at it!
About 8 years ago; whilst I was browsing the web on dial up, I had the misfortune of being caught up in a thunderstorm which promptly took out my Modem. Other than the modem, no other problems were found. The modem took the brunt.
I mentioned this to the B.T. Engineer when this problem I've got now arose, as I thought I may have a duff NTE. He didn't want to know and didn't give me the benefit of the doubt.
The cable supplying my line is of a combination of coloured bands on coloured wires and not solid coloured, if that makes sense. That's why I likened it to CAT5, though I doubt it is.
Only 2 of the wires are used, leaving the others (forgot to count how many!) free. None are twisted, which I thought would have been more tidy for one, as well as also putting noise 180 degrees out of phase.
On the other line, I can swear I can hear hum. I have disconnected any mains products near there and has made no difference. Also, I believe there is a noise which sounds like: tick-ti-tick-tick. God I'm crap at describing things :-[
I think the drop cable in the porch for my line is in a really bad position. It hasn't been fitted very tidily and is open to the elements as well as being pretty dangerous in case of tripping.
I'd have hoped as Openreach were charging £150+ for coming out, that they would have replaced my NTE, the non NTE5 as well as the wiring from the pole etc. and who knows, maybe fixed the fault in doing so.
A couple of years ago, my line went totally dead (no voice or data). After testing the basics of filters etc. I registered a fault with B.T. online.
The next day, the Engineer phoned up saying there was a fault at the exchange which he'd fixed, but I'd be without the Internet for up to 10 days. As to why, he didn't say.
I got in touch with Pipex and they weren't aware of any faults. It took over a fortnight for things to get back to normal. From what I gather, I think a lift and shift had been done.
Phill
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Hi again Phil,
Have you done the quiet line test on both lines 17070 option 2 and cover the mouthpiece.
Both lines should be silent. If not call BT to fix it and strongly suggest they run a new drop cable and install a new NTE5 in place of the very old one. If you have paid the £150 I don't think it's unreasonable that they be called back to complete the job properly.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Hi,
I've done a 17070 option 2 test a few times. Besides the intermittent crackle on my line, which seems to have gone for now, I'd say both line weren't particularly clear. I'm pretty certain there is a low frequency hiss/hum present on both line. What I'm pretty cautious of is whether I am being too particular? I mean how much noise is acceptable?
On the first master socket (where the drop cable from the pole enters the property), people who we've called have claimed that they cannot hear us well as the line to them is low in volume. This line does not have ADSL.
Of course, when the first Openreach guy took a listen, everything was Okayed despite my line hissing like mad due to the HR (?) fault. When we pointed out that it was far from quiet he didn't want to know and advised we pestered B.T. Retail. This was the guy who blamed everything on the filter, even though changing it didn't make any difference.
Phill
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Hi guys, first time poster here.
I'm an Openreach engineer who deals with (amongst other things) SFI faults and I hope I can give a few pointers. (Tin hat firmly on :)
It certainly does sound like you have a HR Dis on the line. I assume you have tried your 17070 test from the NTE test socket and that the NTE is the first point at which the incoming line terminates. This may sound a bit primitive, but if you are able to reach your dropwire (either from the ground or out of a bedroom window, be careful mind), setup a quiet line test and give the dropwire a good shake with a line prop/broom/big stick etc. Any noise will indicate the DW to be faulty.
HRs, especially intermittent ones can be notoriously difficult to find. I have 12 years experience and every now and again I come across one that is nigh on impossible to track down. The Hawk tester is good, but it can't find something that ain't broke at the exact moment it is tested. However, once the noise has started, it's only going to gradually get worse. In some cases, I've advised customers to re-report the problem when the noise has been there for a few days at least. It may be frustrating for a while, but it greatly improves the probability of a succesful repair.
Another issue is that broadband SFI faults are given a time limit of 2 hours (imposed by the ISPs and OFCOM). If the line is testing OK, then in-depth testing and diagnostics can become very difficult without getting a slap on the wrist from one's manager.
Anyway, good luck, hope you get to the bottom of it.
Edit, Just noticed this in one of your previous posts "On the other line, I can swear I can hear hum. I have disconnected any mains products near there and has made no difference. Also, I believe there is a noise which sounds like: tick-ti-tick-tick. God I'm crap at describing things "
Do you live in a rural location? If so, the 'tick-tick' could be indicative of an electric fence running parallel to the BT cables at some point, it could also be a split pair which affects the capacitance of the line (the ability of the pair to reject AC noise) and induces noise off other lines. A tick-ti-tick tick could well be the ringing current of another line. The hum could also be indicative of an earth contact fault, either with another line, or earth itself (tree rub, wet joint etc).
If your DW shakey shakey test bears no fruit, then I'd suggest there may be a wet joint somewhere, possibly underground.
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Hi The Gunner,
Thanks for replying and making mine your fist post :congrats:
Things have been behaving themselves again today, though the weather has been really good. I expect the problem will rear it's ugly head again when it rains >:D Throughput is still low.
There is a slight hiss on both lines, with just a phone connected. Whether I'm being too sensitive about it, I don't know.
I'm not in a rural area, and the ticking sound on the other line I thought might have been due to the cable swaying in the wind, if you know what I mean. I unplugged any mains devices near by and it was still there.
I understand about the regulations imposed on the OR Engineers, and really don't admire them. Just wish I'd have been listened to as we both would have been happier. I genned up on HR faults and mentioned the HAWK. Both times this was ignored. In fact the second one didn''t have one.
I ran my own electronic repair business for a few years, and understand what customers can be like. I would have gladly helped the OR Engineers who came here had they actually looked at the state of the wiring prior to my side of the NTE.
Thanks again, it is greatly appreciated that you posted.
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Thanks for the welcome, :)
Sadly flip, the "2 hour rule" can be, and often is, abused. If you're an engineer of a certain disposition, then it's easy to faff around for a few hours and close the job off without having done a fat lot.
As I mentioned, OR are payed for 2 hours work by the ISP and management are very keen to ensure this is obeyed.
As for the Hawk, it is not essential for the location of an HR fault. If the fault is obvious enough, then the Hawk's older sibling (the 301C) http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/tester-301c_W0QQitemZ180404539810QQcmdZViewItemQQptZUK_BOI_Electrical_Test_Measurement_Equipment_ET?hash=item2a00f2d1a2&_trksid=p3286.c0.m14#ht_500wt_1182 is more than capable of locating it.
I'd expect your throughput to remain low at the moment, as the BRAS will keep your IP profile low until it can see an improvement in line quality over a period of 72 hours or so. I presume your SNR margin is quite high. As this drops lower to the desired 6dB, then in theory, your download speed will gradually work it's way up to the maximum stable rate.
Until that HR is sorted though, I wouldn't expect any real change in speed.
As for your other line, it may be worth reporting the noise (hum, tick-tick) as this sounds like a UG problem, probably a wet joint. If the offending joint is remade (as it should be), you may well find that the problem with your ADSL is also cured.
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Hi,
Both of the Engineers who came out stayed for about half an hour. The first guy came with a laptop and his Voyager (?) modem and decided that there was sync and that it was my 2 day old XTE2005 at fault.
This was even though we'd explained that there was sync but it was low and intermittent. My ISP were aware of this too, as I'd been keeping them up to date with the situation. Sync was around 4 Meg, which previously to the fault was 8128 kbps with a throughput of around 4 to 5 meg.
What really bugged me was that he refitted my XTE2005 which he condemned earlier. This maintained the 4 Meg sync till the next bit of rain. Why not replace it for an Openreach filtered faceplate if the XTE2005 was faulty, or for one of the assortment of microfilters that I'd left out?
We made him aware of the loud hissing due to the HR fault through the phone, to which he said pester B.T. Retail.
The other guy stayed for less than half hour after trying to blame my router as well as my eeePC which was running Router Stats to monitor my line.
After swapping my stuff in front of him and mentioning about corrosion and HR Dis etc. He disappeared, never to be seen again. By us that is :lol: He said water couldn't get in, as it was a sealed unit.
I think, that at least the NTE and the drop wire between master sockets could have been replaced. Because the drop cable is only around a metre long, then replacing this and the NTE5 would take less than 2 hours? Maybe even replace the ancient non NTE box too? I'd have loved to have helped if it was possible.
The other thing was when I received a telephone call from the complaints department at B.T. who said that from my description of the fault being a HR Dis, did not agree with what she knew of a HR Dis. In other words, the computer says no! It shouldn't really be up to me to diagnose a fault on their property!?
As a result of her not thinking it was a HR fault, she said she didn't want to proceed down that route, but could I check the line with just a telephone in the test socket for the billionth time :help:
Now to see what my phone bill will behold :(
Phill
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Hi The Gunner and welcome to the forums :)
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@ flip
as has been mentioned previous, then the HR fault will be causing the underlying problem for your adsl.
>> who said that from my description of the fault being a HR Dis, did not agree with what she knew of a HR Dis
The loss of adsl when lifting/replacing the receiver is one of the common signs, but if you are only dealing with the voice side of BT, they seem to ignore all broadband related faults. Leaving the customer with the unfortunate piggy in the middle between voice & adsl faults :/
>> Things have been behaving themselves again today, though the weather has been really good. I expect the problem will rear it's ugly head again when it rains
It often does :(
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Hi all,
I just thought it might be worth my throwing in my two 'pennorth regarding filtered faceplates as I've just come to the end of a week long test of the XTE-2005 vs the Openrech ADSL 1.0. Given the rave reviews the XTE-2005 gets, I expected it to be at least as good as the Openreach product and possibly give me a modest increase in speed. The results were not as expected.
Before replacing the Openreach ADSL 1.0, my IP profile was 1500 kbps with a SNR of 12 dB and a sync speed of 1790-1804kbps. Immediately after fitting the XTE-2005, the sync speed dropped to below 1400kbps and the SNR rose by 1 dB. Needless to say, the IP profile dropped. which is not what I needed.
This morning, the bitloading on my BT 2700HGV looked like this with the XTE-2005:
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm3.static.flickr.com%2F2629%2F3911351559_14df49a931.jpg&hash=1a151168d37c59845ba66bd7f84f2bab5559e973)
I then replaced this with the Openreach ADSL 1.0 and the bitloading looked as follows:
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Ffarm4.static.flickr.com%2F3450%2F3912133782_c2d9014726.jpg&hash=9cc40fd2b9fd87a27d458e3174cf8ed1eb8e034a)
Neither are particularly good, but the bitloading for the Openreach faceplate is better, and there was an immediate and significant gain in sync speed when the faceplate was replaced. In fact, it returned to its pre-XTE-2005 level.
I'm sure some people find them of benefit, but they clearly don't give an advantage on all lines. It would be interesting to know if there were any line characteristics that reduced the efficiency of the XTE-2005 - aluminium ones like mine perhaps?
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Hi,
So with a HR fault, am I right in thinking that it can give the impression that things have improved, especially in drier/calmer weather?
In reality, the HR is still present. i.e the symptoms are intermittent, but the problem is still there?
This would tally in with what's been happening.
To me now, the hissing noise when ADSL is present is still there; but it is less obvious.
Also, what I thought were the biggest indicators of a fault was the fact that my sync was no longer at 8128 kbps, that the SNR Margin had rose from 6 dB to 15 dB or more and the Attenuation had risen too.
At the present, my stats are:
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 5,120
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 22.5 / 36.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 25.0 / 16.0
Attenuation has come down to 36 dB from 45 dB when the symptoms were more obvious. I cannot see my SNR eve coming back to it's usual 6 dB whilst things are still up in the air.
The weather, is dry and calm again.
Phill
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Phill,
Apologies if this has been mentioned before, but have you tried running RouterStats with your DG834? It would at least give you an idea of what was happening with your line on a near continuous basis and whether there was any clear pattern to it. If there is, it might suggest the cause more precisely, but more important than that, it might offer a bit of a work around.
I's suggest running for a week, at least, to build up a good picture.
You might also want to take a look at http://winterbournestoke-thedigitaldivide.blogspot.com/ (http://winterbournestoke-thedigitaldivide.blogspot.com/). There would seem to be a few similarities between your own problems and those here - icluding people complaining of low volumes on the phone.
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Hi general disquiet,
I've been running Router Stats with the DG834G, and have kept records of any anomalies occurring.
I currently have v5.6g running with the 585v6, on my eeePC 701 (which is connected to the 585 via wired LAN) due to its low power consumption.
What I should really be doing is keeping notes on the weather whilst running Router Stats?!
Phill
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OK, you are right about matching the weather to the RS traces. I find light persistent rain is worse than a brief torrential downpour and heavy mist can be nearly as bad. If you find that there is a regular event at a specific time of day, you can get round that by fitting a timer to your router and switching it off during those periods - not a brilliant solution, but it can preserve your IP profile!
If you are being hit with purely random events, then that option isn't going to help.
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From what I've seen thanks to Router Stats, is that the problem doesn't occur at set times. I had wondered about timers (central heating), but there is no correlation.
The only thing that does seem common is the weather. The fault arose after a really bad weather. When I finally got sync later that day, it lasted for 2 days before loss. Again, after rain.
Prior to the fault becoming obvious in June, there had been no issues.
I just need to find a way of getting this point across to B.T. when I contact them next week, as they have failed to keep me informed.
Phill
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Hmm, that's a shame! There's a reference document I mentioned in another thread http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=5500.45 (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=5500.45) that might give you a few more alternatives to look at - but basically any piece of electrical equipment can cause it, and even a small device can mess up an entire neighbourhood.
Have you spoken to neighbours to see if they are having similar problems (but be aware that it may not affect those on fixed-rate connections).
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Hi,
It might sound a bit stupid, but I'm not even sure if any of my neighbours are on Broadband! I had thought about asking them if they have had any problems, just in case.
What I thought too is, even if someone's got a HR fault, unless they've got ADSL then I presume they wouldn't be too aware of it?
I've left Router Stats running continuously with the 585, and last night I did a quiet line test. This time there was a slight crackle present, but it didn't sound like the usual hiss with the HR. Lifting the receiver had no obvious effect on the SNR margin in Router Stats.
This morning though, the crackle has turned in to a more prominent hiss (sort of sounds like the noise you get when putting a shell to your ear!) and the SNR margin shows a dip from 15 dB to 0 dB in Router Stats, which returns to 15 dB when the handset is replaced.
I've tried a different phone, just in case, and this gives the same results.
I expect to lose sync at some time, as it looks like the fault symptoms are returning.
I'll do a quiet line test with just a phone again later. Feel too tired to do it now :sleep:
Phill
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Funny thing just now is I'd just had a phone call from B.T. regarding the charges. As I let 1571 answer the call, I don't know what it's about regarding the charges. Plus I couldn't make out the call properly due to the hiss.
Anyway, after playing the message back, I couldn't get on the Internet. I checked the Stats page for the 585 and it stated the connection was disconnected. Checking the modem showed a Red LED for the Internet position,meaning Internet connection had failed.
I lifted the phone handset again, which usually forces sync and nothing happened except for the red LED flashing. All the time, the hiss was present in the earpiece.
I switched off the Router and tried the telephone again. This time, the was a 'squeaking' noise (though that's probably the wrong word for it. It was more of a short, squeaky farting noise :lol:) then the line was pretty clear, but still with a hiss.
At this point, I plugged a phone into the test socket and the low volume hiss is still there.
Swapped filters, powered up the 585 and got sync at 5792 kbps. Picking up the phone has no effect on the SNR again.
So, I swapped back to the previous filter and this is OK too. 5792 kbps sync, no effect on SNR but the hiss is still present.
I've enclosed a graph of what happened when the phone is lifted, and also what happened whilst the phone was ringing etc.
As I said before, I wouldn't say my line is clear. It doesn't matter what filter or even if connected to the test socket, there is still a hiss.
Phill
edit: The weather at the time the problem got worse, was not as good as it is now.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Hi Phill,
Your reports illustrate clearly that you have a reasonable telephone line fault complaint which is in urgent need of attention.
Perhaps BT were attempting to contact you re the line fault? I wouldn't bother with any broadband complications before the line is repaired.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Hi Walter,
I've played the message back, and it's to do with something about charges. My bill is due any time now too.
I was going to wait and see my bill as to whether they were proceeding with charges or not, before contacting them. I had told B.T. that it would be better to contact me by email or the other line as mine is untrustworthy.
I'm sorry if my descriptions, are say, a bit crude. It's pretty difficult to explain the different noises produced!
I've noticed a few times now that when the handset is lifted, there has been a short period of crackling followed by what could be perceived by some as a clear line, but to me is a low level hiss. This has also been the case with the phone into the Test Socket.
I've got Router Stats running again with the 585, and it looks like we're in for another downpour soon.
Phill
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Hi again Phill,
Definitely keep the recorded message if you can as an example and it would be worth trying different phones into the line without filter / modem.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Hi,
What I'd done previously is put the landline on speakerphone; whilst the router is off and use my mobile to record what happens as sync is being established.
At the moment, the line is still with the hiss (I've tried 3 different phones, one of which is new) and it's present with all.
I've checked my line stats and they are as of present:
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 5,824
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 19.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 22.5 / 37.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 26.0 / 15.0
Running a BT Speedtest gives the following:
Download speed achieved during the test was - 4498 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :5824 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 5000 Kbps
Swapping between filters again has had no bad effects on my stats! Obviously, I don't want to keep swapping filters too much too soon.
This has also been around the third day of constant sync, which may have something to do with it.
I'd left Router Stats running whilst swpping filters (with the router powered off) and I get a 'before and after' result which tally. Basically there's no drastic change in stats.
Previously, my IP Profile has improved but has never lasted for long.
Edit: I notice that I've had interleaving enabled, as previously my sync rate was 8128 kbps. Now it's saying maximum is 7150 kbps.
Phill
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Can the crackling be heard by the recipient of your telephone calls? If so, when the line is noisy, and with only your telephone plugged in to the test socket, you could try calling 151 so that they are able to hear it for themselves - this would hopefully add a bit of weight to your argument that a fault exists.
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Hi,
Dialling 151 is something that I'll have to do when the crackle returns (probably in the next batch of bad weather). Though knowing my luck, they'll probably say it sounds OK to them.
I'm just keeping an eye on my throughput at the moment. Just wonder how long it'll last this time?
It's really narking me that things are changing like they are. It's not as if it's as clear cut as,say, having no sync, swap filter and syncs back.
It's lulls you in to thinking everything's back to normal, then Wham! gone again.
I've bought enough filters, cables and even 3 new Routers to rule out my equipment; as nothing has improved.
Phill
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Things have still been pretty good again today.
Done another B.T. Speedtest with the following results:
Download speedachieved during the test was - 4441 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :5824 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 5000 Kbps
I've also enclosed a couple of graphs from DMT Tools, to show the results before(Top) and after improvement (Bottom).
Could I just ask for confirmation that with a HR Fault, that the symptoms of the fault can be intermittent? Basically, whilst the weather is OK, with no rain or wind then it gives the impression things are OK?
The weathers been OK so far here, which I gather has something to do with the improvement.
There is still a hiss present, but not as bad as when the HR is more evident.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Oh well, just received my phone bill and guess what?
A one off charge of £99 plus VAT has been applied. Guess this is the infamous call out charge for an Engineer who does sod all.
Now to contact B.T. (again) as well as putting Trading Standards' advice of putting in writing that they have 7 days to fix the fault.
Trading Standards and the C.A.B. both say B.T. or Fast cannot charge as the fault is still present.
This is really driving me nuts now.
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>> that with a HR Fault, that the symptoms of the fault can be intermittent? Basically, whilst the weather is OK, with no rain or wind then it gives the impression things are OK?
Yes thats possible.. things get worse when theres say water on the line.
>> A one off charge of £99 plus VAT has been applied.
:'(
Back to BT indeed.
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Hi Kitz,
Thanks for replying :thumbs:
So at least I'm not going totally mad in thinking my line quality improves in response to better weather conditions!
I've changed filters back to the one that was connected up till Sunday; where the HR symptoms were really obvious, and have maintained a 5.8 Meg sync with this one too. IP Profile is ~ 5 Meg.
What I think would be a problem is explaining this point to B.T. as should an Engineer come out again and take things at face value, then I risk an all clear until the weather changes.
So, how do I approach this? What at minimum should be checked?
Still haven't heard back from the CEO's assistant at BT yet. Had the standard out of office reply, but don't know if she's actually received my email.
Edit: Have also gone back to the DG834G too. So far, so good - but then again so's the weather!
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As I'd not heard anything from B.T. for a while, I decided to give my point of contact at B.T. a bit more of a nudge.
I stated that the charges were unfair as per what Trading Standards and the C.A.B. said, as well as mentioning that Trading Standards had told me to put in to writing my dissatisfaction with B.T. , as well as giving them 7 days to sort everything out.
Later that day, I received an email with an apology, and also the 'Call out Charge' had been removed from my bill :thumbs:
The next day I received a letter in the post from B.T. (not from my PoC) saying that as agreed (?) the charge of £99 was being credited to my account. "Hang on" I thought! "what about V.A.T?" meaning they still could make £14.85 for nothing. I guess this letter is something to do with the phone call I mentioned in post 35?
Anyway, my bill was taken by DD, for the right amount.
Since last Sunday, my line has been behaving OK. But typically there's been no real rain or wind.
My Stats at present using the DG834G are as follows:
Connection Speed: 4888 kbps
Line Attenuation: 38 dB
Noise Margin: 12 dB
A B.T. Speedtest gave the following:
Download speed achieved during the test was - 4582 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :5888 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 5000 Kbps
I've been monitoring the connection with Router Stats all week, and have noticed that Noise Margin dropped to 3 dB for a while befire going back to its usual 12 dB plus. Before the problems arose, the Noise Margin was at the 6 dB average.
In the email from my Point of Contact, she mentions:
Can you confirm if the engineer did attend recently and is the fault still outstanding. If this is the case I will need to contact Openreach again
No Engineer had visited, but how do I explain that even though things seem to have improved, the fault is likely to remain?
I mean, with a phone direct into the test socket, it's pretty clear. With a filter, router and a phone connected; there is a hissing present, akin to what was present before, but a bit quieter.
I don't want another Engineer coming out if they wont check B.T. property. I also don't want to say every-thing's great only for it to go again in the next bout of bad weather. This has happened before, where everything looks OK then along comes the rain.
Thanks,
Phill
p.s. Is there any reason why my Connection Rate of 5888 Kbps has dropped from 8128 kbps since the fault? Though, the Throughput is around what I've always had prior to the event!
I notice as well that I'm on Interleaving now too.
Have also noticed, that lifting the telephone handset causes the SNR Margin to decrease of around 3-4 dB, until it is replaced.
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A combination of Interleaving being applied and a higher snrm will lower your sync......
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Hi,
I think being put on interleaved was one of the 'fixes' B.T. and/or my ISP tried regarding the HR problem - for some reason.
I have no idea when it was done, as I didn't know about the telnet feature of the DG834G v3 prior to reading it on Kitz's site.
I'll see if the SNRM comes down over time too.
Shall just have to wait and see what happens when it rains.
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Hi
quote :Have also noticed, that lifting the telephone handset causes the SNR Margin to decrease of around 3-4 dB, until it is replaced.
This is a probably a filter or internal wiring problem . see link below
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/connectionprobs.htm
Regards Jeff
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Hi,
Already tried different filters/routers/cables. No difference. Current filter is a new ADSL Nation XF-1e, because I was sick of having to unscrew the XTE-2005 to try the test socket.
The fault (HR) is worse during really bad weather, which as of yet, hasn't happened for over a week.