Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: dayvh on August 31, 2009, 12:41:11 PM
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It's been a few years since I posted on this site, previously I explained Virgin had me on 8MB that couldn't push past a 56k download speed or anything below 30,000ms latency to most UK servers. After several months of calls to their technical support line I actually spoke to someone who knew what the heck they were on about. He setup a downgrade from 8MB IPStream to 2MB Datastream and it worked like a charm 24/7, max download speed and minimum latency for over a year.
This year they forcibly upgraded me to 8MB IPStream again and gave me aload of tosh about express lines and how they can't provide the 2MB Datastream anymore. This is rather ironic because a friend down the street was also having issues with the Virgin 8MB back when I was on the 2MB perfect package and I suggested he ring up and ask for the same thing I'm on. Funnily enough they told him that they couldn't provide this for him in our area anymore as they had upgraded all their equipment and it was basically too primitive, bare in mind I'm like 50feet up the road and actually on the "primitive" package.
Anyway to cut a long story short I was forcibly upgraded to 8MB, download speed and latency are perfect after midnight and before 7am and then the trouble starts. I couldn't care less about the 60kb/s download speed I actually get between 7am and midnight but the latency is just diabolical. Even if I play a game that had its netcode developed for 56k and very early broadband like Warcraft 3, after about 10mins of internet use it just goes ape and I start getting latency spikes of anything up to 10,000ms minimum.
I'm no broadband guru or anything hence why I'm posting here but I rang BT Broadband and spoke to them about switching over from Virgin and they checked my line stats and explained they were receiving amazing results since I live like two streets away from the exchange and that if I did ever switch over I shouldn't expect my line to drop under 6MB anytime, obviously not guaranteed incase there's a heavy load or fault on the line.
Virgin's technical support answer script conclusion is I should log on to their online agent chat that hasn't worked for the past three days whenever I've tried it and then run line tests that they can monitor, he also tried explaining this has a turn-a-round time of about 5 days but once I explained I've been through this before for over 2 months and was then told they can't physically fix it unless more people complain he soon changed his tone. (FYI, people in my area complaining about broadband issues is about the equivalent of poverty afflicted children complaining that their Bentley needs polishing).
Any suggestions and/or recommendations regarding how I could approach this situation with Virgin without requesting a MAC code would be greatly appreciated :P
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>> He setup a downgrade from 8MB IPStream to 2MB Datastream
Sounds like they transferred you from rate-adaptive maxdsl to a fixed rate line.
>> as they had upgraded all their equipment and it was basically too primitive
Depends if you are now LLU... or maxdsl either IPStream or DataStream (both via BTw systems).
Its true that BTw are now doing away with fixed rate lines and encouraging ISPs to move their customers over to maxdsl by making it cheaper. However what some of the larger ISPs seem to be totally unaware of.. is that theres still a fixed rate equivalent on max called max capped rate in order to stabilise lines that have problems with the rate adaptive product.
Re LLU - Virgin are actually moving some lines over to LLU provisioned by C&W (ex Bulldog network). You can check if you exchange has a Virgin/Bulldog/C&W prescence using the adsl checker (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adslchecker.php)
>> I rang BT Broadband and spoke to them about switching over from Virgin and they checked my line stats and explained I'm they were amazing results since I live like two streets away from the exchange and that if I did ever switch over I shouldn't expect my line to drop under 6MB anytime, obviously not guaranteed incase their is heavy load or a fault.
Hmmm .. its not unknown for BT to promise such things.
What does the adsl checker say about your line estimated speed? - This info comes from the BTw database.
Can you post your router line stats (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/frogstats.php) please so that we can have a look at how your line is performing.. which should give a better estimation.
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I can't actually pull up my line stats as of recently as I'm using the latest ST330 drivers and the discontinued Dr ST that I got from a link on the line stats page is quite old and detects via drivers I think so it completely fails to identify my modem.
Would you recommend I mention that newer equivalent of fixed rate, max capped rate, to someone at Virgin over the phone and see what they can do about sorting me out with that?
Exchange check results:
Distance:- Direct: 339 metres
(appx)* By Road: 644 metres
BT Line Speed Estimation:
Fixed ADSL: 2048 kbps (2 Mb)
DSL Max : 8000 kbps (8 Mb)
21CN WBC : Not Available
RAG Test Results:
Fixed: 1Mbps and 2Mbps available
radsl: 512Kbps and 256Kbps available
MAX: ADSL Max is available
TPON: No info in database
Market 1: BT Wholesale is the only Market Operator
However you should still be able to get adsl from many other IPStream ISPs such as Zen, Plusnet, IDNet, Enta etc
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Update: I actually rang Virgin and spoke to them about the max capped rate and the guy on the phone seemed very evasive and said he'd never heard of it and didn't have any clue what it was. I kind of explained what I'd read from your post Kitz and basically said It's roughly the equivalent of the 2MB fixed rate line that they had me on last year and I'd like to get some more information about it and possibly have them hook me up with it. He then contacted someone higher up and they said they'd never heard of it and the best they could come up with was this which they forwarded to me in an email after.
IP Profile Reset Procedure
Click connect in themorning and leave it connected then disconnect from the internet last thing at night. Repeat this process for around 4 days and the customers IP profile should reset, improving the customers throughput speed.
NEVER disconnect the customer during this period by asking them to turn off their router or unplug the modem from their computer.
After 4 days, and while the customer is disconnected from the internet, re-sync the modem or router by powering it down, leaving it down for about 20 minutes, and power back on. This should re-establish a connection at a faster speed. Start the process again, if the connection speed is still lower than the customers potential speed.
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I suppose you haven't got a note of any stats from earlier, do you? Without knowing at least the downstream attenuation it's not going to be possible to be certain, but it does look as though your line should be capable of much better results than you are seeing.
The other thing of note is that you are using a rather old USB modem, and most people use a router these days. There are many advantages to a router, both in performance and in security, so it would be worth upgrading.
I've just seen your latest post, and I have to say that the information from Virgin doesn't address your problem (that's the polite way to put it >:( ). It's quite possible that you do have a low IP profile for some reason, but that wouldn't account for the very high latency spikes which, as I understand it, are your most serious problem.
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I don't even really know how to explain the latency spikes. I'd probably say my latency just turns to garble between 7am and midnight with even the slightest bit of download/upload activity, IE, playing games and the tiny amount of game data and net data that is uploaded/downloaded constantly.
I was looking at the DrayTek Vigor 120 as some pretty rough reviews branded it as the worst pile of tosh ever when it came out as it kept dropping the line which resulted in automatic reduction of sync speed by the exchange but apparently a recent beta firmware has made it rock solid like the Vigor 100.
I'm not very experienced in purchasing modems/routers and I definitely don't want any bloatware, IE, built in firewalls/wireless. I just want something simple, polished and solid and built for the one function without all the automatic and extra un-needed features.
Edit: I also just realised my ST330 is 3 years old now and perhaps that could be the cause? I'm not sure what any of the information in the diagnostics of the drivers even means besides Bulk and Iso but there does seem to be a small amount of errors/invalid values to say I've had the connection active for the past few hours since reboot. I did also used to blue screen quite alot due to some crappy defunct Crucial memory, could that mess up the IP Profile on my ST330 with having to Start > Connect To > My ISP every time I get back into Windows?
ADSL Tab:
Line Rate - Transmit: 448, Receive: 7456
Errors - Loss of Signal: 1, Loss of Link: 0, Loss of Framing: 1, Error Seconds: 1
ATM Tab:
Bandwidth (Kbps) - Transmit: 832, Receive: 8128
Cell Count - Transmitted: 951617, Received: 2978250, Loopback: 0, Invalid: 146, Cell Delineation Error: 0
Active Connection Time: 1:58:00
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(appx)* By Road: 644 metres
In theory then you should be able to acheive 8Mb (and more) without any problems.
In erring on the extreme side of caution and that even if your line goes all round the houses and the length is double that.. your attenuation would maximum be around 15dB.
Market 1: BT Wholesale is the only Market Operator
Unlikely then that youre on LLU... so either BTw IPStream or DataStream - dslmax
BT Line Speed Estimation:
Fixed ADSL: 2048 kbps (2 Mb)
DSL Max : 8000 kbps (8 Mb)
You should have no problems in your area getting the 8Mb.
Have you tried the test socket (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm) to see if your connection speed is any better from there.
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kitz.co.uk%2Fadsl%2Fimages%2Ftestsocket.gif&hash=8dd3b22d06c355c55789de83864d2248160b0751)
I can't actually pull up my line stats as of recently as I'm using the latest ST330 drivers
The ST330 can sometimes be a bit tricky to get stats from.. and it quite often will throw an error message. However despite the error message it still often provides the stats to a text file.
The ST330 sometimes has problems with maxdsl.. but if you are using the latest drivers then you should be ok.
I actually rang Virgin and spoke to them about the max capped rate and the guy on the phone seemed very evasive and said he'd never heard of it and didn't have any clue what it was.
As mentioned above - this seems typical for some of the larger ISPs :(
If they read the BTw Max Customer Handbook, then they should realise it is entirely possible to ask BTw to put you on either:-
~ BT IPStream Max Capped Rate Profile 2000 or
~ BT DataStream Max Capped Rate Profile 2000
These newer products are the maxdsl equivalents of the old fixed rate products.
Its also mentioned in BT SIN 485 page 16 - where it tells the ISP how to request this ;)
However.. before doing that I see no reason why you shouldnt be able to get the full 8Mb and theres something else stopping this.
The latency spikes are worrying me indicating possible EMI interference -> high error rates.
Although saying that Virgin IPStream DSL sometimes has its problems with congestion on their centrals.
To be perfectly honest we really need to see linestats to find out exactly just what is happening.
Is there anyone that could lend you a router for a couple of days?
... Alternatively.. ask Virgin is they can arrange a WOOSH test for xDSL status check.
If they are co-operative they may give you the results.
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Our last posts crossed - just seen some stats of sorts..
Is your line always connected at around those figures? If so it may be congestion on the Virgin Central pipes that is causing high latency and slower throughput!
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I don't really check the diagnostics that much but I'd say they tend to be around those figures yes, I live in a small village of about 10,000 though so it shouldn't be that bad. My close friend is on 8MB with Demon and I ran your ADSL check on his line, he lives directly 38metres from the exchange, approx 112metres via road and his connection is near superb all the time even though his setup is horrible. (ADSL2 Router/Modem with router disabled and that's plugged into an Apple Airport and his MAC connects to that on wireless lol)
I am now very tempted to ring Virgin for the third time today and actually use the specific information you left in your post regarding the handbook to actually get them to read and sort it out for me.
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Is there any particular reason why you wouldn't consider moving to another ISP?
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>> I am now very tempted to ring Virgin for the third time today and actually use the specific information you left in your post regarding the handbook to actually get them to read and sort it out for me.
By all means feel free.
However I feel that setting your line at 2Mb would be a cop out. By all accounts that line should be capable of much more.
What is undecided atm is whether its a problem with your connection.. or if its ISP related.
To find that out we'd need to see full line stats.. preferably with routerstats running on it for a while just to make sure youre not getting some sort of ElectroMagnetic Interfernce from some where.
I know youre using a modem, which makes testing from the master socket difficult.. but have you tried this just to ensure its not internal wiring?
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Yeah I rang up and asked about the profiles you'd mentioned. Virgin just make me feel like I can't be arsed. The 2nd call I made today when the guy said he'd contacted technical support to ask about the profiles and he said they didn't know anything about them was talking out of his arse. The third call I just made the guy was kind of half understanding, he recommended I plug into the test socket and was talking about REIN and stuff. HOWEVER the best part is the fact he mentioned technical support are off today and all tech support calls are being forwarded to the front line support (all they care about is if your internet works or if it doesn't, none of the inbetweens) because It's bank holiday monday. My most recent call I was bounced from tech support to customer support and then back to support. I asked if he could check their list of profiles and actually tell me if it was even possible for him to request the profile from BTw for me but understandably he said he didn't have access to any profile stuff as he wasn't actually tech support because they're off work today.
I'm frustrated because I can't really argue any points as I don't fully understand ADSL. Are half of the resolutions they come up with even relevant since my internet works fine from midnight til 8am? Why don't they just put me on this new fixed rate profile, it seems pretty logical as a fixed rate profile fixed my connection before?
I'm now being forwarded to the virgin remote chat to schedule a WOOSH test with an agent. Great big pile of tosh that chat system is though, has no queuing ability. User just has to refresh til the icon appears(means an agent is available)..
I'm now honestly looking at switching my ISP as it took 3 months of phone calls to Virgin to get my line fixed last time and even then it was only because somebody with a clue was on the other end of the phone. The first two people I spoke to today didn't even know what ping or latency was!
I'm pretty burned out for today but tomorow I'll try and get the ST330 into the test socket downstairs and get my PC down there and see how that goes.
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Hi dayvh
You do sound in the dumps :( Non illegitimis carborundum. You will get help from this site . You think you have problems , well I was with Ti....i that was real hard work. Now with big Z and life is sweet . As Kitz says you should be able to have a great BB connection .No point in settling for anything less. How long before you can Jump ship ?. The st330 is OK I used it and performance wise no problem . unfortunately you cannot see all the stats easily. That's where a reasonable router is better and it is more secure. Even if you are not technically minded its worth getting one . Very easy to set up about 10 minutes from getting out of the box (plenty of help here ,I can vouch for that) .
Regards Jeff :)
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I'm pretty smart when it comes to computer hardware, even basic home networking hardware, just not entirely up to date with the best brands and what's best right now. I am a little down in the dumps and I'm infuriated right now because of a call I made about 6 months ago to Virgin where I was asking why the heck I was back on 8MB without any warning or anything. It wasn't as bad as the first time but I noticed a different right away, especially during peak times but for them to turn around and tell me on several occasions they didn't support the amazingly stable line I had anymore and for me to find out today there's a new variation of it and they're just too dumb to actually do their job and keep up to date with critical information that they should know just gets on my nerves.
I don't care security wise about router/modem .etc as I whenever I get anything remotely dodgy I just format and one of the perks of being with virgin is I have a dynamic IP and on this USB ST330 it takes me no longer than 10 secs to actually change my IP and hostname. Wierd how the hostnames I'm assigned are from all over the country though, bournemouth.virgin.net, newcastle.virgin.net, manchester.virgin.net, london.virgin.net and so on haha. I even did a few tracerts yesterday to google after connecting and reconnecting and 4/12 different connections the first hop timed out.
Could you also define jump ship btw? I can have a new modem in under a month depending on when I next get paid, contract wise with virgin I took out a 12 month contract 3 years ago so I can now get out at any time.
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>> he recommended I plug into the test socket and was talking about REIN and stuff
This guy sounds like he knows a bit more. REIN (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm) is what I was on about when I mentioned EMI (Electromagnetic Interference).
Most EMI comes from within the home - hence why its best testing from the test socket.
To be fair most of the first line staff on the larger ISPs wont be aware of capped rate profiles.. but 2nd line/tech support should be.
>> I asked if he could check their list of profiles
You may be able to check your IP profile from the BTw Performance Tester (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/btwperformancetest.htm). It may not work however if you are on Datastream.
>> Are half of the resolutions they come up with even relevant since my internet works fine from midnight til 8am?
Possibly - its not unusual for EMI problems to get worse in the evenings.. more people are at home... more electrical appliances switched on.
There are ways which this can be monitored if you have a router... but unfortunately not with a modem.
However.. Virgin central congestion historically also get worse in the evenings too.
Without being able to monitor your line conditions in the evenings.. its hard to say.
BUT .. if your latency does get high.. and throughput is much lower and your connection status remains static at 8Mb.. then it could be ISP congestion.
The main reason why Virgin DSL was rated so poorly on the ISP ratings (http://www.kitz.co.uk/isp/ISP_ratings.php), was because of their state of their centrals. I don't think theres been many ratings of late.. because most of the users that frequent this site, moved elsewhere because of it :/
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Posts crossed again
>> bournemouth.virgin.net, newcastle.virgin.net, manchester.virgin.net, london.virgin.net
hmmm.. you could well be on IPStream.. sounds like that may be their BAMs (ISP centrals) which they have located throughout the country.
Can you do a tracert (http://www.kitz.co.uk/tute/tracert.htm) to somewhere like the BBC and i'll see if I can recognise any of them.
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I used to know 2 guys that worked in tech support for Bulldog Broadband back when I originally had 8MB problems with Virgin and the first words to come out of their mouth were Virgin over-subscribe.
tracert to bbc below, 1st hop timed out on this connection :(
Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [212.58.224.138]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 * * * Request timed out.
2 62 ms 48 ms 44 ms bmly-core-1b-ge-016-0.network.virginmedia.net [8
0.1.225.149]
3 85 ms 95 ms 76 ms bre-bb-b-as3-0.network.virginmedia.net [212.43.1
62.61]
4 74 ms 64 ms 60 ms bre-bb-a-ae0-0.network.virginmedia.net [213.105.
174.225]
5 70 ms 83 ms 76 ms 213.43.163.105
6 66 ms 62 ms 68 ms redb-ic-1-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net [62.253.
185.78]
7 62 ms 68 ms 58 ms 212.58.239.249
8 70 ms 74 ms 64 ms 212.58.238.133
9 70 ms 76 ms 64 ms virtual-vip.thdo.bbc.co.uk [212.58.224.138]
Trace complete.
Update: I ran a BTw speed test,
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 7456 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 6500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 4964 kbps
This is exactly what happened before, where all the tests were saying It's fine except 2mins after starting to do anything remotely active my latency goes to pot.
What is the rough difference between the 2MB fixed rate I was on and the 8MB I'm on now. I kind of mean, sure the 8MB gives me that actual speed of 5MB at this moment in time but how come on a 2MB connection at the same time of the day it would keep much better latencies and not throw a hissy fit when I demanded anything from it?
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Hi
Your stats are fine .
this throughtput is showing some contention
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 4964 kbps
with your profile you should be getting over 6000Kbps at least
The latency problem is also showing up this is my tracert to BBC MY line is interleaved so my figures ar probably ~20ms higher than a non interleaved line.
Tracing route to bbc.co.uk [212.58.224.138]
over a maximum of 30 hops:
1 7 ms 1 ms <1 ms 192.168.0.1
2 34 ms 32 ms 33 ms gauss-dsl.zen.net.uk [62.3.82.18]
3 34 ms 32 ms 33 ms spinoza-ae0-160.hq.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.161]
4 37 ms 34 ms 46 ms lotze-ae1-0.hq.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.66]
5 33 ms 33 ms 33 ms nietzsche-ae2-0.ls.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.70]
6 33 ms 33 ms 33 ms nozick-ge-3-1-0-0.ls.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.74]
7 44 ms 42 ms 43 ms lorenz-ge-3-0-0-0.te.zen.net.uk [62.3.80.78]
8 43 ms 42 ms 42 ms 82.71.254.134
9 41 ms 41 ms 43 ms 212.58.238.129
10 43 ms 43 ms 41 ms virtual-vip.thdo.bbc.co.uk [212.58.224.138]
Trace complete.
This all points to congestion .
quote Could you also define jump ship btw? I can have a new modem in under a month depending on when I next get paid, contract wise with virgin I took out a 12 month contract 3 years ago so I can now get out at any time.
When is your contract up . ?
Not sure you can leave anytime ,as I understand it ISPs tend to work on a rolling contract ,so that if you do not give them a months notice of termination then automatically your in for another year . Maybe Virgin is different hope so .
Regards Jeff
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Well I am very hateful of contracts and the one I got was a minimum of 12 months and if I wished to terminate and/or change ISP I had to keep paying the monthly fee til the contract was up, after the contract ended however I am free to drop it at any time. This is what I believe anyway, they definitely haven't had me sign any changes to TOS that can change the contract..
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I can have a new modem in under a month depending on when I next get paid
You could try and get Virgin to supply you with a new one for free, although it will likely have to be returned if you migrate.
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bmly-core-1b-ge-016-0 isnt one I recognise..
but the IP 80.1.225.149 does appear to be one of their BAMs... they did some rejigging last year.
Looks like you are now on IPStream - plus youve also been able to access your IPprofile from the performance tester.
>> IP profile for your line is - 6500 kbps
Your IPprofile is fine - you should be getting throughput of around 6.5Mb
That first hop (their central) looks a tad busy.. the increase in latency is being carried over to subsequent hops.
Its now looking pretty certain its congestion (over subscription) of their central pipes I'm afraid.
You may see a slight improvement if you disconnect and try to get on a different central.
>> What is the rough difference between the 2MB fixed rate I was on and the 8MB I'm on now.
You mentioned datastream before.. datastream traffic was done over a different (3rd party supplier) backhaul.
IPStream traffic is carried over their own Central Pipes.
Virgin used to use some Datastream.. but since this year they appear to be moving away from this.. and transferring users over to their IPStream Centrals.. or using C+W LLU.
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If you get virgin to supply you with a new router.. be aware you will likely find that you will enter a new 12 month contract.
Not many of the decent IPStream ISPs will provide a free router... doing so normally means a lock-in for a minimum of 12 months.
O2 provide free routers, (12 months), but their IPStream service is also congested. However if you have O2 available on LLU at your exchange may be worth a look.
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The guy on tech support earlier tried to persuade to me accept one of those netgear wi-fi, firewall, router modems that in my experience start to fall apart in one way or another after about 6 months.
I'm going to keep looking around for a solid modem-only piece of hardware heh
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Probably best not to go for a Virgin supplied router then in case it does end up locking you down for another 12 months.
I read that earlier this month Virgin went on a huge marketing drive and 'relaunched' their ADSL service. They have apparently had so many new subscriptions that they were having trouble providing modem hardware to meet the demand.
I'd imagine that unless they have added, or plan to add extra capacity in the not too distant future things will not improve.
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This is one such device but I haven't had much experience of using it. Most modems now combine at least a router which can be useful if you might have visitors who must plug their laptops in.
I've found most netgear and thompson modem / routers to be reasonably reliable and the 2Wire is another good one although you have to fiddle with it to remove BT's blocking configuration.
http://www.adslnation.com/phpapps/catalog/index.php?cPath=29http://www.adslnation.com/phpapps/catalog/index.php?cPath=29
Kind regards,
Walter
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Well I've squeezed out 4 speed tests since last night, 2 last night and 2 this morning and they all range from 4000-5000kbps throughput. I've obviously only done the tests between early morning and midnight when I have most of my issues. I wish there was some kind of a stress test I could run though, nothing too advanced, just something to squeeze abit of download activity on my line and monitor my latency. Kind of like a test that lets me look for bottlenecks in different situations on my connection.
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Theres a couple of things you can do to automatically monitor latency.
Win MTR (http://www.kitz.co.uk/links/network_tools.htm) has options to run and monitor overall latency on your PC.
But something which may really interest you is f8lure (http://f8lure.mouselike.org/).. which monitors your latency from a remote location and graphs it for you
I'm afraid the sign up doesnt show much info.. so Ive attached below a copy of one of my graphs from today.
Historic graphs are retained for a month - as long as you log in.
Edited to add
---- Oops just thought youre on a dynamic IP. I cant remember if during the signup theres an option for anything if youre not on a static IP. You may be able to do something with dyndns
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I was using Wireshark with PingPlotter to actually pull IP addresses of servers I'm connecting to in games and applications and then monitoring via PingPlotter. The in-game ping stuff was showing huge spikes at small intervals whilst PingPlotter barely pushed above 160ms over a period of 45 minutes but did however spot a 10% packet loss issue at the 2nd hop of the trace for about 20 minutes.
Going to have a play with WinMTR now!
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Do you suffer the same kind of latency spikes if you were to ping a UK server?
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Well not many games or applications I use actually have UK servers. They'll tag servers as EU and they'll be based out of Amsterdam or Paris and several other various cities. For instance the other day I was pinging a 6,000 to EU servers yet only 600 to West Coast so that didn't make an ounce of sense. It actually happened again about 15 minutes ago but when I did a tracert everything was perfectly fine..
Edit: Still haven't been able to use Virgin web chat as it has no queuing system and is practically useless, was also on hold for 30 minutes earlier and they actually changed their phone on hold queue system also so it doesn't even tell you what position you're in. It just lets you know that you've moved up a slot and are one step closer to speaking to someone..
Going to give them another ring tomorow and demand they put me on the new fixed rate equivalent and try and argue the fact that when they forcibly upgraded me they said there was no equivalent, hopefully that will make them realise I don't want to spend a month doing speed tests and trouble shooting.. Now I'm back at college there's no way I want to have crappy internet at the only times I'll be on..
Thanks for the help and I hope you can all understand why I'm not that bothered about having my internet perform as well as it should on ADSL Max.
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Just an update, after 4 days of trying to get on remote chat with Virgin I finally managed to get on this morning.
This is how it's gone so far...
10:05 (ME) If it's not going to be fixed any time soon I was wondering if its possible to have my profile switched to one of the new fixed rate equivalents
10:08 (Virgin) There is no fixed rate profiles anymore. With high ping rates for online gaming, we dont support this on our service.
10:09 (ME) There are two new equivalents for maxdsl though
10:09 (ME) BT IPStream Max Capped Rate Profile 2000
10:09 (ME) and BT DataStream Max Capped Rate Profile 2000
10:11 (Virgin) I will request this for you and see what can be done about it.
10:15 (Virgin) The time frame is unsure at the moment as I will not know untill the request has been looked at and I have been informed about it. Once this has been done and I have a response I will give you a telephone call.
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Hi
Well at least this one seemed to listen :fingers:
Regards Jeff
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Nah he never even entered it into the system then he took the rest of the day off ahaha.
After 6 hours of waiting for a phone call I logged back on to try and get a rough time frame of the request and the new operator I was assigned said there wasn't even a record of a request on the system or on my account.
This new operator seems to be a little sympathetic to my cause so let's see what he says.
Virgin are basically telling me that they don't provide DataStream anymore and than the BT IPStream Max Capped Rate Profile 2000 profile probably wouldn't even make a difference..
Regarding the BT IPStream Max Capped Rate Profile 2000;
15:28 (Virgin) I dont think we can do it, I certainly have not heard of it but I will make a call and check.
15:28 (ME) It's in the BTw Max Customer Handbook
15:28 (ME) and is also mentioned in BT SIN 485 page 16
15:31 (Virgin) I'm sorry but we cant offer that. I have just checked.
15:31 (ME) Could I ask why or could we talk about some of the methods you mentioned that might fix my connection?
15:33 (Virgin) We only have certain BT Wholsale products available to us. Currently Max is the only one we use. We cant provision that type connection.
Update: After an hour we came a conclusion after I mentioned large amounts of incoming packets didn't seem like they were being received fast enough, I asked if a mix of reduced speed from peak times mixed with my extension that runs the filter from downstairs to up could be the cause, it didn't seem very logical as 2MB ran fine 24/7 and the 8MB runs perfect after midnight til early morning but we decided it would be worth me lugging all my stuff downstairs and plugging directly into the wall.
,
Update: I plugged into the Test Socket downstairs behind the lower plate of the main socket and my internet is actually WORSE!
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Since they have moved you over to IPStream Max.. theres no reason why they cant offer you BTw IPStream Max Capped Rate profile 2000.
Basicially its the same product that youre already on - but they simply request BTw to cap it at 2000 to improve stability. The BTw Max customer handbook is all about the Max product which they are claiming to use.
However.. from looking at your line... this doesnt appear to be a stability problem with BTw.. (and probably why they wont request it).. it seems far more likely that its problems within Virgins own Central pipes and their capacity. :/
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The trouble is they aren't going to admit that..
Events have taken a turn and I'm on the phone with them now.
Update: I basically gave up and couldn't be bothered with them anymore so my mother rang up and went all "complaints" against them, got her notepad out and started taking names.
Clearly the guy on the phone sat up straight and tried to solve my issues, he's filed a fault and passed it on to second line BT or something and ran literally every test he could from where he was sat.
If the second line people can't find a fault then they will pass it on to the third line and apparently someone will be sent out. It supposedly takes 7 to 10 days to complete the second line process and I will hear from them via email or phone. If it reaches the third line and someone is sent out and the fault appears to be my fault, IE a filter extension or something then I could be charged a call out fee.
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Update: I plugged into the Test Socket downstairs behind the lower plate of the main socket and my internet is actually WORSE!
Can you explain how it is worse; using the test socket should make things better because it removes your house wiring from the equation.
Also have you tried the f8lure ping test that kitz mentioned?
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I'm not actually sure if it's made it that much worse. After I switched into the test socket and reconnected I was using my ventrilo server based out of Amsterdam to watch my ping. This has been spiking between 50ms and 3000+ms for the last 2 hours. I think this is mainly because for some reason It's having to go quite a few hops to Amsterdam? Pings reported below are from WinMTR but Ventrilo reports them much higher.
I did try the f8lure ping tests but when the tests started it kept saying the destination was offline, no matter how many times I reconnected my connection to get a new IP.
I didn't forget to start a new test with my new IP as the focus so it definitely wasn't an error on my end. The only form of security I even use is Windows Firewall, I use no advanced software or hardware firewalls as they tend to get in my way with configuration and notifications when I'm trying to get something important done. Plus as I mentioned previously if I ever do have security issues with viruses and stuff I generally just format.
|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| WinMTR statistics |
| Host - % | Sent | Recv | Best | Avrg | Wrst | Last |
|------------------------------------------------|------|------|------|------|------|------|
| No response from host - 100 | 229 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
|bmly-core-1b-ge-016-0.network.virginmedia.net - 0 | 228 | 228 | 31 | 61 | 125 | 46 |
| bre-bb-b-as3-0.network.virginmedia.net - 0 | 228 | 228 | 31 | 71 | 266 | 47 |
| telc-ic-1-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net - 0 | 228 | 228 | 46 | 60 | 109 | 47 |
| ldn-b2-link.telia.net - 0 | 228 | 228 | 31 | 60 | 110 | 47 |
| ldn-bb1-link.telia.net - 0 | 228 | 228 | 32 | 68 | 235 | 46 |
| adm-bb1-link.telia.net - 0 | 228 | 228 | 46 | 71 | 140 | 47 |
| adm-b2-link.telia.net - 1 | 228 | 227 | 46 | 68 | 141 | 63 |
| adm-evo-i2-link.telia.net - 0 | 228 | 228 | 46 | 72 | 157 | 47 |
| leaseweb-ic-126777-adm-evo.c.telia.net - 0 | 228 | 228 | 62 | 81 | 157 | 62 |
| te1-1.sr1.esy.leaseweb.net - 0 | 228 | 228 | 62 | 84 | 281 | 63 |
| 85.17.59.205 - 1 | 228 | 227 | 62 | 80 | 141 | 63 |
|________________________________________________|______|______|______|______|______|______|
WinMTR - 0.8. Copyleft @2000-2002 Vasile Laurentiu Stanimir ( stanimir@cr.nivis.com )
Update: I just had some pretty odd packet loss not to mention my ADSL line just randomly lost connection and I had to unplug the cable from the back of my modem and plug it back in again to initialize the connection, is it possible they're already trying to sort out my line?
The trace also gets worse and even hits 7% packet loss at one point.
Also when my ADSL line initialized and Windows gives you the popup saying what speed it's connected at. Vista always used to say 7.6Mbps, XP usually says 7.4Mbps but just now after reconnecting It's dropped to 7.2Mbps?
|------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------|
| WinMTR statistics |
| Host - % | Sent | Recv | Best | Avrg | Wrst | Last |
|------------------------------------------------|------|------|------|------|------|------|
| No response from host - 100 | 477 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 | 0 |
|bmly-core-1b-ge-016-0.network.virginmedia.net - 2 | 477 | 468 | 31 | 55 | 125 | 47 |
| bre-bb-b-as3-0.network.virginmedia.net - 2 | 477 | 468 | 31 | 62 | 266 | 125 |
| telc-ic-1-as0-0.network.virginmedia.net - 2 | 477 | 468 | 31 | 55 | 109 | 47 |
| ldn-b2-link.telia.net - 2 | 477 | 468 | 31 | 55 | 110 | 47 |
| ldn-bb1-link.telia.net - 2 | 477 | 467 | 31 | 62 | 235 | 47 |
| adm-bb1-link.telia.net - 2 | 477 | 467 | 46 | 65 | 140 | 46 |
| adm-b2-link.telia.net - 3 | 477 | 465 | 46 | 62 | 141 | 47 |
| adm-evo-i2-link.telia.net - 3 | 477 | 465 | 46 | 65 | 250 | 47 |
| leaseweb-ic-126777-adm-evo.c.telia.net - 2 | 477 | 467 | 62 | 74 | 157 | 62 |
| te1-1.sr1.esy.leaseweb.net - 2 | 477 | 467 | 62 | 79 | 281 | 78 |
| 85.17.59.205 - 2 | 476 | 466 | 62 | 73 | 141 | 63 |
|________________________________________________|______|______|______|______|______|______|
WinMTR - 0.8. Copyleft @2000-2002 Vasile Laurentiu Stanimir ( stanimir@cr.nivis.com )
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Can you post a tracert from you to one of the Dutch game servers during a time when there is poor latency? In all likelihood Virgin is suffering congestion, however there was an issue a while back where Zen had a problem with latency to Dutch servers, particularly for WoW, and I think the problem was something to do with an issue with the France Telecom or Telia network.
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Dutch servers are usually fine, this is an error within this past 2 hours of the latest phone call with Virgin technical support. Ironically he said it sounds like my modem might be the problem and since then my ADSL line oddly lost sync and dropped to 7.2Mbps line rate. In the last 29 minutes of connection I've had 29 Losses of Signal, 29 Losses of Framing and 3 Losses of Link..
I hate the internet now ;d
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I pressume you mean that after reconnecting to the master socket that this made your latency worse... NOT your line stats?
Each time you connect to Virgin, there is a strong chance you will connect via a different Central Pipe (what Virgin call a BAM and the only ISP that calls them BAMs). As mentioned in one of my earlier posts reconnecting can sometimes mean that you will get on a better Central.. but on this instance you may have connected to one that was even busier than the previous one.... which would fully account for the increase in latency times.
You can check which of their BAMs you connect to from the 2nd hop of your tracerts.
>> I did try the f8lure ping tests
f8lure normally requires a static IP.. however if you sign up with somewhere like dyndns (http://www.dyndns.com/services/dns/dyndns/), then you should be able to use that to set up a test.
Ive just been able to set up a new f8lure test for a dyndns name... simply type in your dyndns address rather than your IP. eg username.chosen_dyndnsname.com.
It took about 5-10 mins for f8lure to update to the new account name but its now showing as live and graphing ok.
Dont forget because youre on a dynamic IP youll also need an update client running on your PC such as one of these (https://www.dyndns.com/support/clients/). Must admit I havent tried that particular one as Im on a static IP
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I made an A record on a domain I own and I've been assigning my IP to that and I've had no luck with f8lure working with it, even when I use my actual IP without a dns it doesn't seem to work, It's actually rather odd.
Also you're correct on what I meant before, after connecting back into the master socket I had terrible ping from the "BAM" I was on and I reconnected three times to get a different "BAM" and had no better luck which I guess would indicate a temporary problem somewhere else down the line.
I actually had to keep reconnecting the other weekend because the first two hops on all my tracerts kept timing out to east coast US servers.
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>> I made an A record on a domain I own and I've been assigning my IP to that and I've had no luck with f8lure working with it, even when I use my actual IP without a dns it doesn't seem to work, It's actually rather odd.
I just created an account at dyndns.. then used that when setting up the f8lure test by inputting kitz."chosenName".com
From the screen cap below you can see its been running fine since I set up the new test account at about 6pm earlier.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Also you're correct on what I meant before, after connecting back into the master socket I had terrible ping from the "BAM" I was on and I reconnected three times to get a different "BAM" and had no better luck which I guess would indicate a temporary problem somewhere else down the line.
Either that or all their BAMs are busy - just some more than others. :'(
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Well everything seems to be alot worse than it was now, as I previously said the last phone call to Virgin he passed my problems on as a fault to second line BT and he thinks the problem is either something local, on my line or my actual modem. Approx 10 minutes after the phone call my line lost sync and I had to reconnect my modem to reinitialise the ADSL line, at this point it reconnected with a lower line rate than usual and ever since then my internet has actually been horrible.
I haven't been able to run any BTw speed tests as all I get is what I pasted below in the snippet; Please note that I'm inputting my telephone number correctly and I've masked it for obvious reasons. BTw speed tests were working fine previously.
Performance Tester was not able to find all the network details required for telephone number:xxxxxxxxxxx.
Please check that it is the correct telephone number for your service, and if not try again. If you believe it is the correct number for your service then please raise this as a fault with your service provider.
My ping is now spiking 24/7 to everything, be it ventrilo, a game or even a tracert and the numbers coming back even ranged above 90,000ms yesterday.
He said it would take 7-10days for second line to even look at my fault so why did all this happen right after the call?
I can't get on 50% of websites I'm trying to and my actual download speed at 11pm is jumping from 50kb/s up to 700kb/s and back at stupidly fast intervals. It's like my internet is confused ;p
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Can you post your stats again?
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I don't know if this is useful or significant to this thread, but I have recently been experiencing some dreadful speed problems with Virgin adsl.
My speed normaly bobbles around betwen about 6.8 and 7.3 but from Tuesday of this week there has been every day a period between 1600 to 1800 hours during which my speed would drop to about 3.5. Before and after these periods I go back to about 7Mbs, which makes me think that I have not been capped or fuped ( I really quite a light user )
My routerstats do not alter at these times.
There is also an issue at these times with e-mails whereby when I open my Outlook Express I am constantly and repeatedly asked for my userid/password....a sure sign that there is a problem on the Virgin mail servers.
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As mentioned it would be useful if you could post your linestats again. Its not unusual to get slightly lower sync speeds in the evenings so it would be helpful for us to compare how much sync speed you have lost.
It is also very probably that the loss of sync has yet again pushed you onto another of their centrals. So its worthwhile attempting another sync again. The only thing that concerns me about this, is that with you having a modem rather than a router, is that if you have to perform a full sync rather than just reconnecing the PPP session.
Performing a full sync, makes the BTw DLM aware and doing too many in a short time span could fool it into thinking that there is a problem with your line.
As regards to the results from the BTw performance tester, I myself have seen a similar message in the past on my own line when I was on IPStream. The performance tester does get very busy at certain times of the day and can start giving back silly messages.
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Hi
quote is that with you having a modem rather than a router, is that if you have to perform a full sync rather than just reconnecing the PPP session.
which modem ? .
That was the good thing about the ST330 that would just reset PPP.
Regards Jeff
edit Needed it with Tisc--y :lol:
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>> That was the good thing about the ST330 that would just reset PPP.
ty jeff - couldnt remember - its been a while since I had my mitts on one.
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It appears the BTw speed tests were re-designed over the past few days, just the verification methods and stuff so I assume that's why I had trouble with it.
Latest speedtester.bt.com results from 1am GMT 07/09/2009;
Download speed achieved during the test was - 2010 Kbps
For your connection, the acceptable range of speeds is 600-7150 Kbps.
Additional Information:
Your DSL Connection Rate :7456 Kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 Kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP Profile for your line is - 6500 Kbps
I'm not sure what the problem is now but it's getting worse.
I used to only get ping spikes locally on games and applications, ie only the application would report I have huge ping but I'd be able to browse the web and download at ok speeds and my ping would be fine on ventrilo which made it seem odd. Since I plugged into the test socket and then back into the master socket my ping spikes have been global so to speak. If I have high ping on ventrilo then everything else reflects on this like slow web browsing and horrible download speeds. I'm not sure if it was swapping sockets that caused this as I rang Virgin a few minutes after and had my problems passed on as a fault to second line BT. About 10 minutes after that phone call I lost sync and it wasn't until a few hours after that, just past midnight, when I expected my internet to pick up and it didn't.
For the past 3 days I've been getting download speeds that don't exceed 60kb/s between midnight and 8am which are usually my best times. I've tried reconnecting so it changes what BAM I'm on and I tend to have to do that several times in a short period as I'll do a tracert to bbc.co.uk every time I connect to one and 1-3 hops will time out which results in the worst delays I've ever experienced.
There's still supposed to be another 3-5 days before BT and/or Virgin contact me regarding the fault so does anyone have any wise ideas that might help me get some use out of it while I wait?
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You might try getting yourself a second modem set up to BT W speedtest domain
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/btwspeedtest.htm
and plugging it in when you're getting poor performance, but not to swop them more than say twice in 1 hour.
You could also try http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/btwspeedtest.htm immediately after BT tests using your Virgin connection just to compare the two results.
Kind regards,
Walter
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>> IP Profile for your line is - 6500 Kbps
As mentioned above, that figure is an estimate of what speed you should get on your line on the BTw system.
The fact that your IP Profile is at 6500 indicates that all is well line side.
All your symptoms seem to indicate severe congestion.
With IPStream adsl (which is what weve now confirmed you are on), congestion through contention can occur at 2 places.
1) The exchange
2) The ISP central Pipes.
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.kitz.co.uk%2Fadsl%2Fimages%2Fcontention.gif&hash=a88ba6ea32bc9fa2cda7c26cf7487894938d6343)
Exchange
You can check your exchange status here (http://usertools.plus.net/exchanges/).
Although saying that, it should be pointed out that exchange contention usually causes just slow thoughput.
Some form of low-level QoS is performed on the MSANs and more modern DSLAMs so that latency doesnt seem to be affected.
Since maxdslI dont think Ive ever seen a case of Exchange contention causing low latency. Even way back to 2003 when our exchange kinda became famous for having extreme and severe contention and speeds right down to about 40kbps... not one of us had any problems with latency.
ISP Centrals
The only way you can check for this for sure is by using the old sytle BTw speedtest (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/btwspeedtest.htm). However it doesnt always allow access and Im not sure what impact the recent BTw tester changes will have had on it.
Virgin supplies broadband via several different methods.
- Cable - They took over the NTL cable..Normally OK although does see some local congestion from time to time. Most users are happy with this service and dont see too many problems.
- LLU - A relatively new venture for Virgin, they started moving some of their users on to this service from IPStream/DataStream due to severe congestion problems on their centrals.
- IPStream - Historically Virgin are well known to have contention & congestion problems on their centrals through oversubscription. This is when they dont purchase sufficient central pipes to keep up with the number of users that they have. Users on congested centrals report slow throughput and high latency. Virgin will deny point blank though that there are problems with their centrals even when it is obvious.. and historically they are known for not keeping up with supply and demand for IPStream... if you do searches most of Virgins complaints come from IPStream users reporting slow throughput.
Last Month.
Virgin Media recently ran an advertising campaign that some thought was a bit dubious about their claims, but it seems that many were taken in by the ads.
This caused a problem last month in that Virgin wasnt able to connect all of them in time due to delays... mostly not being able to post modems out in time.
See Virgin Media 'overwhelmed' by broadband customers fleeing BT (http://www.theregister.co.uk/2009/08/28/virgin_media_adsl_broadband_delays/).
So Virgin is now seeing lots of new users - thats lots of new people now sharing their Central Pipes.
Lead time to get more BTw Centrals installed is 90 working days.. If this is whats going on.. then it could be a bumpy ride for Virgin cutomers over the next few months if Virgin havent planned properly :/
If Virgin havent planned enough modems which can be got in days/weeks. Then what are the chances that 3 or 4 months ago they planned for sufficient centrals to be ordered to accommodate these new users . :'(
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Theres just one other thought that does occur... VM has a FUP were users who have used more than 'x' amount of bandwidth get their connection throttled. Is it possible that you may have tripped their Fair Usage Policy and are being traffic managed.
http://www.virgin.net/allyours/faqs/trafficManagementFAQ.html