Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Technology => Topic started by: toulouse on August 05, 2009, 01:11:19 PM
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Hi gang,
As some of you may recall, I joined the Plusnet ADSL2+ trial at the beginning of May. Initially for the first six or seven weeks I saw connection rates between 11920 and 12739. Something happened towards the end of June, which led to the involvement of much testing of my line by my ISP and also the involvement of 2 separate BT Openreach engineers. No problems found by either of them.
Now, reading through the support ticket, which is currently still open, I noticed that my MSR = 7392 and FTR = 5913. Would I be correct in thinking that these may well have been set when I first joined Plusnet some 2 years ago. Having read the info on this excellent site, those kind of figures suggest to me that they may well have been applicable to the service I was using prior to joining the current trial, i.e. Plusnets Up to 8Mb MaxDSL product.
Secondly, when moving to a potentially higher speed service (ADSL2+), would or should these figures be recalculated ?
TTFN
toulouse
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The MSR and FTR figures do seem to be a great deal lower than your current connection rates which would certainly suggest that they are based on your old line profile.
When you first switched to ADSL2+ did you go through the 10 day line training? It's during this period that the line data is collected and your MSR/FTR etc are calculated.
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@orainsear
It was during the first 6-7 weeks that I was achieving the kind of connection rate figures that I mentioned initially. Since that time, along with several other Plusnet users, my connection rates have been steadily going downhill.
I wonder if those figures for MSR and FTR have been recalculated. How could I find out ?
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Can you give a rough figure for the connection rates you are getting now?
As for help - I'd have thought that PlusNet technical support should be able to give you some answers. In addition it may also be worthwhile posting on their community forum to see if any other users have experienced anything similar.
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@orainsear
Yesterday my connection had been up for the previous 4 days at a rate of 8765. Due to overnight maintenance by BT I decided to shut everything down last night and restart afresh this morning. Today I've got 8355(d)/1096(u) with SNR of 14, and a minor, possibly insignificant change in my downstream attenuation from 35.0 yesterday to 35.5 today.
These figures are for the last few days. I've had a ticket running with Plusnet Support since this problem reared it's ugly head way back towards the end of June, and since then have had 2 BT Openreach engineer appointments, neither of which found anything wrong. I just don't get it.
TTFN
toulouse
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>> would or should these figures be recalculated ?
I was under the impression that they were when moving over to adsl2+
Do I recall that you had some weirdness with your speeds when you first went on the trial? Apologies if I recall wrongly
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@kitz
There was a minor problem concerning the profiles as reported by the BT Performance tester and the Plusnet Member Centre, but that was cleared after a couple of days on the trial. Well done for picking that up.
For the first 6 - 7 weeks I was seeing download syncs of in excess of 11920 up to 12739, then on 23/24 June it all went pear shaped and has been there ever since, and I'm now back to speeds of a little over 8M. There have been a LOT of people on the Plusnet forums reporting similar problems starting around the same time as mine. Am I right in thinking that you also have experienced reduced sync problems recently ?
Thanks for your response about my enquiry. Just a quick further question...would you say that those figures that I reported would indicate that they were recalculated when I switched to ADSL2+, bearing in mind that for the period 1 May - 23/24 June I had been connecting at something in excess of 11920 ?
TTFN
toulouse
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There have been a LOT of people on the Plusnet forums reporting similar problems starting around the same time as mine.
I wonder if they started to experience some problems during the trial and so throttled the speeds back somehow, or perhaps there were near end cross talk problems.
Did you notice any instability of your line at all?
A bit unlikely but perhaps it's all part of their testing procedures?
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Hi orainsear,
Well, they've certainly done something and it's upset a LOT of people on the trial.
Prior to the night of 23/24 June my line had been rock solid. I saw sync speeds from 11920 to 12739 during the 6 - 7 weeks before that evil night. Prior to joining the trial my line had always synched at 8128 / 448kbps, with no dropouts since July 2007.
There is now talk on their community forums about BT applying what they refer to as 'Banded Profiles', and I think I may well have become a victim of said evil doing. The Plusnet Support people have offered me the loan of an approved modem, but when I accepted that offer, everything has gone quiet. Also a suggestion was recently made by them to reduce my SNR figure, but again when I asked them to go ahead with that, everything has gone quiet. I'm wondering if they have more problems than they can actually deal with.
TTFN
toulouse
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IIRC there were quite a lot of problems during about that period.. experienced by several ISPs.. there hasnt been any real answer what was going wrong although there was some rumours about incompatible MSANs.
If toulouse was one of those caught up in this.. and his was one of those in the lower than anticpated syncs.. then that could well account for a lower than expected FTR. If this is the case then IMHO BT should be retraining those lines to get the proper FTR and MSR recorded.
>> I'm wondering if they have more problems than they can actually deal with.
You may be right... and why its classed as a trial.. I recall the days when max first came in and how max teething problems caused problems for most ISPs. I know that Plusnet CS was swamped with enquiries and things practically ground to a halt for several months :(
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Hmmmm looking at it cynically, could these 'banded profiles' be something akin to traffic shaping, except rather than throttling throughput they are capping connection rates.
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@orainsear
I'm not really sure. I submitted an additional question to my outstanding ticket 3 days ago, but am still awaiting a response. If I ever get a response, I'd be happy to let you know. But please, don't hold your breath.
From what I understand at the moment, there are I think 3 different 'banded profiles', one of which is referred to as 'Super Stable', and it is this little b*st*rd which I think they've put me (and maybe others) on. There's a lot of not very happy bunnies on the Plusnet trial at the moment.
TTFN
toulouse
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Hi
Many many years ago some wise old soldier told me NEVER volunteer for anything :no:
Regards Jeff
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Hmmmm looking at it cynically, could these 'banded profiles' be something akin to traffic shaping, except rather than throttling throughput they are capping connection rates.
The banded profiles are BTw's equivalent of Be*s profiles...
Only unlike Be where the user/ISP controls them.. with BTw its the DLM that does it.
I do believe though that in the future there is talk that the ISP will have much more control and be able to over-ride it themselves rather than having to go to BTw.
Also... and Im speaking very tentatively here, because it will depend on the interface and the ISP being able to build something into their portal..and if BTw/ISP decide to proceed... but it may be possible to allow user control. Dont hold your breath just yet though.
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Ahh I see! So what are the bands? I'm guessing 3 - 6 dB, 6 - 9 dB and 9 - 12 dB.
Being placed in the 'super stable' band would suggest that the line was previously experiencing instability.
Do you move down a band if your line maintains stability? Max DLM can still a be a bit of a mystery.... is this going to be any clearer ???
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@orainsear
I think the 'super stable' must be a target SNR of 15 (or more maybe). I'm currently on 15, but some of the others affected by this devious method of control have mentioned figures of in excess of 20.
I have to be honest and say that the line does seem pretty stable at the moment, but I want the kind of speed that I saw during the first 6-7 weeks, i.e. into the 12000s. Got an update to my ticket from Plusnet yesterday saying that they're trying to get BT to adjust the profile for me, but once again, time will tell.
TTFN
toulouse
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This is from a document I got last year for the planned profiles
WBC options for reducing fault costs
Broadband on 21CN extends this capability to deliver :
Faster profile changes and greater granularity
Proactive repair tools
Delivering more information/tools to customers for complex fault diagnosis
Selectable profiles – standard stable and super-stable (for video)
Seamless rate adaptation
See image below from the doc which shows the profile states.
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=4356.0;attach=1754;image)
It doesnt say exactly what the profiles will be but my assumptions are in brackets
1) Interleaving OFF - Normal profile (likely 6dB Target SNR)
2) Interleaving OFF - Stable profile (probably 9dB Target SNR?)
3) Interleaving OFF - SuperStable profile (probably 12dB SNR?)
4) Interleaving ON - Normal profile (likely 6dB Target SNR)
5) Interleaving ON - Stable profile (probably 9dB Target SNR + possible increased depth of interleaving?)
6) Interleaving ON - Super Stable (probably 12dB Target SNR + possible further increased depth of interleaving?)
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I think the 'super stable' must be a target SNR of 15 (or more maybe). I'm currently on 15, but some of the others affected by this devious method of control have mentioned figures of in excess of 20.
oooh eke very high! scrub my assumptions above then :/
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No, I don't think your assumptions are wrong, but there are obviously a few other things up the sleeves of BT.
Plusnet have been trying to get my profile altered by BT for the past few days. What can be taking so long ?
Do I understand that you don't get all this messing about with a LLU provider. I took a quick look at Be the other day, and they say that yes, they can provide me with a service, but it will be at 6Mbps. I assume that must be based on some stats that BT provide to them, and obviously doesn't take into account the fact that I've been connecting on Plusnet at a solid 8128/448 from July 2007, and more recently since going on the trial seen speeds of in excess of 12000.
I just do not know what the answer is to this situation, but something just ain't right about it.
TTFN
toulouse
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>> Plusnet have been trying to get my profile altered by BT for the past few days. What can be taking so long ?
Sorry not sure - perhaps they (PN) need kicking - James is usually about the best person to ask.... or it could be BT are being stubborn about changing profiles as they currently are with 20CN.
The stuff mentioned above is long term plans and not all are in place as yet.
>> you don't get all this messing about with a LLU provider.
Although most of the LLU ISPs still have some form of DLM, theres no IPprofiles and no waiting around for things to change. Certain LLU providers are more obliging than others to change their settings.
>> I assume that must be based on some stats that BT provide to them,
Yep... all the information comes from the BTw database.
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oooooooooo dearrrr. BT to adjust a profile or do a profile reset. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news but i have seen me spend almost half an hour on the phone to BT for one of our sky customers to get BT to reset the profile for me and it was one hell of a challenge. BT are very reluctant (if that is spelt right) to actually reset the profile. In order for them usually to do this they have to reset or bounce as sky would call it the line card. They act as if this is a very complicated job to do when it really isn't cause all they have to do is through a few commands into a system using putty and thats it done. You will be put back to a 10 day training period or 5 day training period but once its done then just leave the router plugged in and switched on and all should be fine. My fingers are crossed for you but i hope you have plenty of time on your hands :P
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Kitz said 'Yep...all the information comes from the BTw database.'
Now, call me a cynical old bugger, but I think it's fair to say that that information isn't necessarily always up to date, or am I wrong about this ?
TTFN
toulouse
P.S. the strange thing is when I had my latest BT engineer appointment he called the BT ADSL Help Desk and within minutes I was back to 12763/1199 with a target SNR of 6. So it is possible to get it done, but you may need an engineer to do it in a a timely manner.
Sadly, that only lasted for 2 days, and then the SNR was reset to 15 for some reason (Banded profile methinks)
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Aye the engineer calls up the helpdesk and asks them to reset the line card which resets your profile its just a shame that only lasted 2 days however you can't expected to have an engineer everytime this happens just to do that 1 thing. The records on BTW's systems are only an estimate so they are not always correct. I know from my own experience that your line is default to 256Kbps until your line is tested for ADSL broadband (this only applies to new installed lines) then after you have been tested the estimated speed gets recorded on the data base. Now bare in mind this can change as the years tick on as your line quality can decrease causing your speed to decrease. That is when you call your ISP and tell them to get an engineer out to do an uplift (basically change all cabling). Stick on at your SP PN about this and mention to them about requesting BT to reset your line card. If BT do actually do this which it will require a nice agent to spend about half an hour argueing with them then make sure you don't switch the router off for at least 10 days. If this doesn't do the trick then get back to your SP and request further investigation. The key to all this is being a pain in the ar** to your SP and keeping yourself updated on a regular basis as with that your SP will become more involved in your fault and some other poor customer will be ignored for a few days.