Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Technology => Topic started by: coolsnakeman on July 16, 2009, 09:36:12 PM
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Hey guys,
First time posting so here it goes. I don't usually ask questions on forums as i am very technically minded and usually have the answer but this time around it looks like i have been beaten. I currently have sky broadband as my SP. I had logged a ticket with them in regards to a slow connection. Please see my router stats below and remember i am 1.7Km line distance from the exchange including the corners:
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 8096 kbps 768 kbps
Line Attenuation 47.0 db 28.5 db
Noise Margin 6.9 db 14.0 db
I ain't checked that since the LL5 engineer and those noise margins have actually dropped from 9db to 6db. Now as i currently do technical support for BB myself i know that sky put what is called DLM onto there customers line's those of which are LLU which gives this a 10 day training period almost like BT's IP profiling in the first 10 days but slightly different. I was in my test socket for just over a month while sky where trying to work out what was wrong with this connection and why the attenuation was so high on such a short line as for this line you should expect 12.5Mb or higher and sky offers up to 16Mb on the package i am on. Now i had the following done:
Spare router with a filter, RJ11 cable and power pack tested for 24 hours and still the same
Tie Pair shift and still the same
LL5 engineer who fitted an NTE2000 and also fixed some joints at the exchange
Now the LL5 engineer had found i have aliminium cabling from the exchange to the cabinet and copper wire from there to my premises. Because of this sky are unable to do anything further for me and the engineer advised there was no spare copper wire or something to that affect. Now i am underground cabling so the LL5 engineer was unable to dig up the ground without permission. I have been getting negative feedback from my colleagues in work and even someone that works for BT BB technical that BT will not budge to change that aluminium cause it cost to much money unless i am able to really convince them it is service effecting to my phone line (slight hiss on the phone line but not severe). So basically what i am looking for is advise on if anyone has EVER been successfully in convincing BT to change this cabling without having to go to Ofcom or a local MP with a partition. My exchange is due to go FTTC in quarter 1 of 2010 so that should be exciting so i could end of having to wait till then.
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Hi coolsnakeman and welcome.
>> i have aliminium cabling from the exchange to the cabinet and copper wire from there to my premises.
I'm afraid this is bad news for you and theres quite a lot of lines in the UK that still have some sort of aluminium on the line which adds extra resistance and a higher attenuation reading. Sometimes you may be lucky and their may be a spair copper pair or one that is slightly better.. but if the aluminium run is before the cab then youre often a bit out of luck :/
>> really convince them it is service effecting to my phone line
Usually this is due to moisture ingression on the joint which often occurs when aluminium is on the line.
In the UK theres nothing to actually set the standards as to what speed you should get for the line length and the only guidelines are those laid out in irrc SINET (http://www1.btwebworld.com/sinet/) - SIN 351. As long as the line is able to meet those standards for voice then its considered acceptable.
Its been a long hard struggle for many to get anything above 500kbps and to aim for 2Mb (as walter will verify).
Its true that the cost of replacing would be very high and this is the reason they dont/wont. I havent ever heard of anyone getting it replaced without forming some sort of campaign. There was an area near here that had TPON and it took about 4 years and campaigning by several hundred people on the estate that were affected before BT installed a copper overlay. I was told the cost once of this and iirc it was something like £80,000 for only a short run.
>> My exchange is due to go FTTC in quarter 1 of 2010
I know this isnt much help to you but... If you have an FTTC date then at least that is something and far more than lots of other aluminium lines do and there is a glimmer of hope for the future.
Sorry that I cant give you any more positive news :(
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Awk well not to worry it was to be expected anyhow so i kinda set myself up so i wasn't to disappointed. It just can be fairly frustrating considering that if that part of the line was replaced for copper i would more than likely achieve the 16Mb that sky are offering. The only thing i am worried about is the fact that this is causing a considerably amount of throughput issues for me as there is a large amount of errors building on my line due to this aliminium so it is possible that this could cause future drop outs. I wasn't 100% sure on the FTTC so i think i will go back to samknows and check it again. I will continue to complain to BT and see if i can maybe squeeze something out of them (doubt it) but its worth a go. I will keep ya's posted and let ya know if i have started a campaign as i haven't gotten around to asking my neigbours if they are suffering the same issue.
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Sometimes you may be lucky and their may be a spair copper pair or one that is slightly better..
I think the engineer had actually mentioned there was no spair copper pair. Just checked samknows and the exchange at the minute is only enabled for WBC but samknows doesn't seem to mention FTTC. Was suppose to be migrated for 21CN for my PSTN in quarter 1 of this year but that seems to have been delayed.
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There are a few ways an engineer can tell whats avalable to a cab cable wise.
"the prints" which are both at the exchange and the laptop I can see what cables are listed to the cab from the exchange (e-side) and from the cab to the dp; typicaly the block at the pole or underground distribution point (d-side). some cabs have more than one cable and thus may be of a different material in parts, diameter wires.
"S.E.A.M." an on line method of looking at the pre measured line loss fo any e-side cable (taken off a load of us in openreach, thanks Offcom >:()
Or We can call the dsl helpdesk so they can look up seam for us and give us another range if the line loss is better.
Physicaly clipping on a pair on a different cable and measuring it either with a dsl signal or using the hawk.
the cost of running new/replacement cable is a lot. E-side cables are usualy quite large, so adding to the cost, and the're perssurised with the relaven monitoring equipment on them. saying that things do happen. I'm eagarly awaiting the completion of 4.5km of 0.63 copper 100pair cable to be completed to one cab in this area. Don't know what the cost is but it must be huge. Although its intended to remove something called a gerfeller and tranfer those lines to a normal telephony service (gefellers are very rear now) hopefully it' going to give me an option of swapping e-sides for a lot of people via that route at a hamlet with particular problems due to the current line loss. and if I was planning FTTC for east anglia I certainly know the first place i would put down for it
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Something tells me you work for openreach loll So thats where you get all your knowledge from. Its just a shame the way openreach engineers don't have alot of say on what goes on in regards to the line plants because of LLU. I can remember speaking to the PSTN engineer that installed my phone line and he was basically telling me all about not charging customers for replacing sockets in the house that are beyond the test point. He kind of got himself into trouble for that lol. He also mentioned there was days where you where able to not charge the customer and openreach had more freedom to do things. Well perhaps if those days where still there that OR engineer that checked my exchange would of happily went and got an LN engineer to sort out a change in cabling from the exchange to the cab. I have yet again sent another e-mail to BT's complaints department in regards to this so i am awaiting a response. Also have a fault open on my line but off course the line is TOK as i could of told them it would. I have been reading some of your posts in some of the other topics and i must say you know your stuff. I would let you fix my broadband any day if you lived in belfast that is lol.
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heh Ezzer is our 'resident REIN specialist' :)
... and possibly a tad too modest to say that he knows a wee bit more about the workings of adsl than the average openreach engineer.
.......... so I'll say it instead ;D
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and whilst on that subject it should be stressed that lack of knowledge its not always the fault of the engineers themselves.
The segregation of the many different BT departments means that they often dont know what goes on outside their own sector.
Strict time-slot allocations dont always make it easy for them either... because if they havent finished a job within the slot then they have to leave.
When I last visited an exchange there were a few different BT type bods 'allocated' to my visit. Both the Openreach Frames and Field engineers happily tagged along too when I spent time with the BTWholesale guy in charge of the dslams/msans.. as this wasnt normally an area in which they would be involved in so they were interested too.
Even the BTw guy didnt know certain info about backhaul provision and the BTw backbone.. and its often a case of gleaning information from different people, departments and resources in order to be able to slot the whole lot in place.
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Oooooo we have a resident rein engineer very interesting lol. I feel sorry for rein engineers though because they do have such a hard job when it comes to finding the REIN. Yeah i know what you mean about the slot times. Sky pay openreach for 2 hours to complete there job and sometimes that in itself can be very difficult and frustrating for our customer as if the engineer runs out of time they need to call us back to book another engineer. Since LLU there have been alot of restrictions put in place which i am sure you's would feel it was for the worse rather than the best.
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Well just an update now to see i am bricking it as i have just gone ahead and booked an engineer for this friday coming between 1-6pm. I do have that noise on my line and i guess i have the right to have that investigated. I have tested my phone on its own at the test socket and the background noise is still there even with a spare phone. I was actually able to slightly hear another conversation on the spare phone and could also hear an echo of the cars driving past outside my apartment. I went onto the phone again tonight to littlewoods and when the girl answered the phone i was an echo this appears to be only when the phone is first answered then it settles down and the noise then appears on the line. Any ideas as to what this could be i would suspect the aluminium is contributing to this.
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Good luck.
>> i would suspect the aluminium is contributing to this.
Aluminium is more susceptible to moisture ingression, which often is a cause of the additional noise.
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Unlss the design of telephones has changed, there is a small amount of feedback from the phone microphone into the earpiece so you can adjust the volume of your voice.
That might explain the echo coolsnakeman was hearing?
To avoid that problem when I'm doing a quiet line test, I try to put my fingers over the microphone and then keep them very still.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Cheers kitz and walter. I have a feeling the engineer is going to TOK and i am going to be hit with a nasty bill. I was informed by complaints to contact faults about this so i have to start somewhere. If my needs are not met then its back to complaints to claim the money back. May not be to easy to do but i will try my best. Cheers again guys for your knowledge and i will keep you updated.
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I have decided not to go ahead with the engineer for tomorrow cause the chances are i will be charged and nothing will be done so i have created a new plan. Originally i was going to go to virgin media but i have called them to find out i can't get virgin media cause i live in a new build so that is out the window. So i have cancelled with sky and requested a Mac code and i am going to go with BT and complain to them about slow speeds. Hopefully because i have broadband with BT they will actually push to get the cabling changed for me as i was advised by the girl from BT retail they would probably do more. Plus i have a friend that works for BT broadband higher tech support so that will come in handy for an engineer ;D
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May be an idea to mention to the engineer when he comes that you are a bit concerned about the charges.. and make sure you stress that you have done everything you can yourself to try an eliminate problems with your internal wiring and tested from the master socket etc.
Then offer Tea & Biccies.. I believe that a bacon butty trick has also been sucessfully used a few times too ;)
I'm nor sure if its worth mentioning possible moisture/aluminium... some engineers like it if you know a bit and open up.. others may see it that youre being a bit smart and trying to tell them their job :/
Good Luck.
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Wooooooah just seen this.
Hopefully because i have broadband with BT they will actually push to get the cabling changed for me as i was advised by the girl from BT retail they would probably do more.
That is false.. in fact if OFCOM hears of it, then who ever said it could be in serious trouble.
BT Broadband is a completely separate section of BT.. all the different departments are chinese walled.
BT Openreach who are in charge of 'the final mile' have nothing to do with BT Retail (BT Broadband) and BTB are NOT allowed to imply that they do.
As Ezzer will confirm, most often the engineer doesnt even have any idea who the ISP or Telco is, he just gets issued a job to investigate.
BT Openreach are not allowed.. nor do they give special preference to BT Broadband customers.
Who ever said that to you.. it was probably just a ploy to get you to sign up.. and its not true.
Youd stand more chance with one of the better ISPs than BTB because at least they have an understanding of how adsl works.. and will push BTw harder. Once you get with BTB, you may find that their support is not perhaps able to do what was promised.
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I have an advantage point though since i have a friend that works for BTB tech and has done "favours" for 1 of my other friends in the past when he was on BTB. I would love to go virgin media but i just don't have the option for this so i am stuck with ADSL broadband. I know they are 2 seperate companies and actually fight against each other cause lets face it they are all about the money but i need to do something. My SP was sky and they didn't have that much of an understanding about my issues as they practically told me there was nothing they could do ONLY because the openreach engineer called them that day he was out on the 14/7/09 to find out what they wanted him to do. Openreach engineer did say there wasn't anything else more he could do but i am taking that as "there is nothing more i can do until instructed on what to do by the SP" as he can not just go ahead and start pulling cables up and replacing them then charging the SP for the job. Sky off course take than onboard literally as there isn't anything else more that can be done and instructed the engineer to close the fault down. I am going to attempt this strategy with BT to start off with and see where it gets me cause i have more of a fighting chance with ofcom if they refused to fix this with them being my BB SP now. Activation date for BT is the 7th of august got Mac code of sky within 24 hours. It also disappoints me that sky couldn't help me out with this cause i worked for there higher tech support myself and even there escalations team who are meant to "push" BT to fix things and i done everything for the customer to get them fixed. Even stuck with 1 customer for 6 months to get her fixed. Worse thing about that customer was all BT needed to do was change the RAS mapping which they said they done about 6 times and they actually didn't cause i got it sorted with them in 5 minutes. That customer also had about 5 SFI engineers sent out. Would surprise you what goes on behind the scenes.
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Where did you get the information from that suggests your line is 1.7 km in length?
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Compliance Alert
AsKitz has correctly said we have to srictly support all isp's identicaly dosn't matter if it BT retail, bt broadband, virgin media, joe bloggs telecoms (Kitz telecoms :-X)
None can recive preferential treatment, infact all the engineers effectively look at each job as trying to get the end user the best possible service.Who their sp is becomes imaterial.
Besides I couldn't trat and end user one way then at a later date differently just because their with another provider; I'ld feel like a clown if i did that
And If ofcomgot tohear of such a comment..... :police: :flamer: :police:
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Where did you get the information from that suggests your line is 1.7 km in length?
I work for my own SP so i had benifits of only looking at my line and also line distance. Just for the records i NEVER made any changes to my own line i always called sky technical to do this *sky have spiders everywhere hence the reason i am saying that* lol. Well Ez sky just didn't really seem interested in fixing this for me which from there perspective i kinda understand cause putting the shoe on the other foot if you could avoid paying a large amount of money to replace a cable would you not do it?
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P.S BT retail in belfast do not have a clue and don't think what they are saying before they say it. Now the strategy i have has been in the back of my mind since i have found out about that cabling so that agent did not say anything to encourage my decission although i do agree with you both ofcom would go through the roof if they found out a comment like that was said. I backed out of the engineer today because i can't afford to pay almost £200 to BT because an engineer decided i wasn't worth the change of cabling because its only really me and not 100 ppl if you get what i mean. The thing about it is that engineer is sent on a job to find noise on my line *which he would not have found* and not sent to change my cabling from the exchange to the cab. Now what kitz was saying earlier about being open with the engineer, i have no problem with doing that at all and sharing my technical knowledge with him but the thing that i would of been afraid of is him taking offense by it thinking i was telling him how to do his job even though i would not have meant it to come across that way. The first engineer that came out that was sent by sky i actually left a note for him to check certain things like the d-side and e-side cabling and to also check the speed from the PCP. I asked him to run an APTS test from my premises but i don't know if he done that or not i would think he would have to actually get the speed and calculate the error build aswell. Well everyone keep there fingers cross i finally come out of this with a conclusion ???
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How long have you had the Sky service on your current phone line? Have you noticed any past fluctuations in attenuation?
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I have been with sky BB since june. Attenuation goes from 47Db to 50Db depending on how high you raise the speed. If the line is changed from ADSL to ADSL2+ then that is when the attenuation goes up to 50Db and the noise margins dropped below 7Db for downstream. Latest stats are below and this is me on ADSL:
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 7840 kbps 768 kbps
Line Attenuation 47.0 db 28.5 db
Noise Margin 6.4 db 14.0 db
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The attenuation rise between ADSL and ADSL2+ is perfectly normal - the higher frequencies used in ADSL2+ simply attenuate more than lower ones, resulting in a net higher attenuation figure.
If a line with 47-50 dB attenuation was accurately representative of it's physical length I'd personally be very happy with the connection speed you have.
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That attenuation is only high because of the aluminium from the exchange to the cab. If i had a full copper line that attenuation for my line length would be in and around 20Db. That speed all looks very pretty for that attenuation and i see your point but it is causing hell for my throughput. I was connected to the same exchange in my previous property on a longer line about 2.5Km but it was a full copper line which resulted in 16Mb and an attenuation of 18Db. line length could have been recorded incorrectly though so i may have been closer than i thought. All these issues are a result of 1.6Km of aluminium cabling thats what this all boils down to.
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Go live with BT total broadband on the 12 august so 10 days after that being 22 august i will be on BT's back to get this cabling sorted out. It should be fun >:D
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heh good luck ... after all they did promise you didnt they? >:D
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Off course they did and they will have wished they never did muwhahaha >:D
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:lol: :lol:
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Just thought i would put up my latest stats before sky goes bye bye:
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 7840 kbps 768 kbps
Line Attenuation 47.0 db 28.5 db
Noise Margin 6.2 db 14.0 db
As you can see from my previous stats the downstream SNR is going between 6.1Db and 6.4Db which is average for BT but below average for sky as sky's average SNR is 7Db. Upstream SNR is sweet though it has stayed with the 14Db. Tell me something kitz this is something i have wondered but the upstream attenuation is calculated from the master socket back to the exchange is that correct? Those stats make me sick cause i know with my line length being so short that attenuation should be in its 20's or possibly lower. Why do i have to have 1970's cabling :'(
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Don't suppose you know what version of the DMT tool i need to download for a Sagem F@ST™2404???
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Just plugged in my BT home hub and my speed is connecting slower than the sagem got. I only plugged it in and already i have errors. Check my stats:
Connection Information
Line state Connected
Connection time 0 days, 00:14:44
Downstream 6,712 Kbps
Upstream 1,012 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation G.992.5 Annex A
Latency type Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up) 6.0 dB / 5.5 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 48.9 dB / 27.2 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 10.2 dBm / 1.5 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 403 / 0
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 2 / 0
HEC Errors (Down/Up) 19 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote) 1 / 0
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Hi Coolsnakeman,
Unless that's a typo, your upstream power is very low !
Kind regards,
Walter
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Could be because i just only plugged the router in. Def not a typo it was copied and pasted. Ok just checked the stats after 21 hours this is what we got:
Connection Information
Line state Connected
Connection time 0 days, 21:02:45
Downstream 7,788 Kbps
Upstream 1,040 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation G.992.5 Annex A
Latency type Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up) 2.1 dB / 5.7 dB <<<<<<<<<< This is VERY close to dropping on me if these SNR's stay the same.
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 48.8 dB / 27.2 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 10.1 dBm / 1.5 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 7401 / 19
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 14205 / 20
HEC Errors (Down/Up) 124733 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote) 1509 / 12
Been doing speed tests and have a look at the results over the past 2 days and tell me what you think:
19:20Pm- 19/8/09
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 6712 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 1011 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 7150 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 4347 kbps
18:20Pm - 20/8/09
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 7788 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 1039 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 5500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 3280 kbps
Haven't managed to get a test done before 5pm but i will on sunday ???
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Speed has drastically reduced and Ip profile is now ADSL3500 :lol: Also been suffering disconnections. BT engineer due to call out this wednesday between 1-6pm so i need all the luck in the book and hope this cabling can be changed. I am syncing below my access speed so i have that to argue against BT if they tried to pull the wool over my eyes. Current stats below:
onnection Information
Line state Connected
Connection time 1 days, 02:23:13
Downstream 5,368 Kbps
Upstream 774 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation G.992.5 Annex A
Latency type Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up) 15.8 dB / 9.1 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 48.8 dB / 27.2 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 8.4 dBm / 1.1 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 5517 / 0
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 290 / 0
HEC Errors (Down/Up) 2275 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote) 215 / 0
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Downstream output power looks low too.
I may be totally wrong, but I seem to recall something about output power and the HomeHubs?
Your lower throughput speed could very well be likely due to a high level of CRC errors... which will slow you down a bit.
Your last results SNR shows at 15dB.. which probably indicates a higher SNR. This in turn will be costing you quite a bit of sync speed.
>> BT engineer due to call out this wednesday between 1-6pm
Best of luck and hope he can change it.. after BT have promised to be able to do better than sky ;)
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Just had another drop in the connection again. Looked at how long the router has been connected for and before the drop it said 7 hours so it has dropped out while i have been at work. As you can see another decrease in my speed so DLM is probably going to reduce my profile again with all these drop outs. Yeah i need the luck and i am well under my access speed so if nothing is done this time then i am e-mailing ofcom :P Latest stats after the drop:
Connection Information
Line state Connected
Connection time 0 days, 00:06:21
Downstream 4,614 Kbps
Upstream 929 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation G.992.3 Annex A
Latency type Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up) 14.7 dB / 6.2 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 44.3 dB / 27.2 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 7.0 dBm / 1.4 dBm<<<<<<<<This is very low but as you said could be router.
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 13 / 11
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 0 / 7
HEC Errors (Down/Up) 7 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote) 0 / 7
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>> Latest stats after the drop:
Downstream 4,614 Kbps
:(
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Yeah i know it sucks. Just waiting on the engineer now to call round 8)
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Well engineer called run an APTS test and got NO errors on his laptop now why doesn't that surprise me. I have tested this with another router plus in the test socket with all non ADSL equipment disconnected and the SFI advised that it could be my own equipment causing these errors :lol:. Just to satisfy him i advised i would check the errors in the router wirelessly while leaving my ethernet cables disconnected but guess what there is still errors on the connection. Engineer also advised that the aluminium isn't from the exchange to the cab it is actually going from the exchange to what i think a junction box then splits apparently to the cab where it is copper from there on in :no:. I questioned him about this and asked what the chances where of me getting this replaced (even offered a cup of tea) and he advised that there was no chance and that i would have to wait until FTTC :'(. I am not letting this go only because i am bored and want to annoy BT so i have went back to them again advising i have tested this the way the SFI required and it is still half the speed that i began with and the errors are still bad. I have been advised to keep an eye on it for 24 hours and BT are going to call again tomorrow night. One other thing the engineer did mention was there was work done a few years ago on the springfield road so the cabling could be laid differently i was pretty peed at this thinking "why didn't you go check". Engineer didn't even check at the DP downstairs where the line comes in either which was annoying aswell. It almost looked as if he was being pretty lazy and didn't really want to check anywhere else but my property. I was shocked though at the APTS test as it came up my line distance as about 3Km. Was advised by the engineer that is just calculating that from the stats so it won't be accurate. Any suggestions on this kitz all info to hit these guys with would be helpful cause after all i ain't even getting my access speed any longer.
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Hi CSM,
Just to fill in a bit of detail you'll see at http://winterbournestoke-thedigitaldivide.blogspot.com/
that they have 3,361 m of aluminium cable which BT estimate would cost £180,000 to replace and they can't justify those costs for a small village.
I am sure they would like to replace those cables as aluminium goes brittle and is an absolute nightmare if ever a joint has to be opened. Remember a typical rural cable could be 100 pairs which equate to 400 wires in 200 crimp connections. Poke about in the birdsnest with a tone tracer to find the pair you want, and you stand a very good chance of disturbing countless other pairs and not knowing which ones are broken until all the customers have complained. Each time a complaint is dealt with, the joint has to be opened up again, and you stand a good chance .............. etc. etc.
However I believe E side cables tend not to be opened too often, it's usually the D side ones which require changes and a lot of that cable is copper. (@ Ezzer please comment)
The other reason for BT's lack of enthusiasm for investigating noisy cables is that a typical line has an average of around 40 joints; Murphy says you won't be lucky enough to be able to trace the faulty joint accurately the first time.
It is however worth chasing BT to do a lift and shift or a tie pair modification. Our long line actually became stable after BT had done so, but only after all the other less arduous items had been eliminated.
On another point BT are quite capable of giving you a line length estimate, although their measurements will vary if the combination of copper and aluminium aren't known precisely.
As an example our VERY long line http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=5546.0 was measured by BT for Zen at 6913 metres. I've just used the SCC map distance measuring system which gave me a road distance of 7060 metres which seems remarkably accurate, although the actual cable distance will be longer than the road distance due to the joints and length of the tails on the poles etc.
Kind regards,
Walter
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As i said to the SFI i can be a very hard man to convince lol. Well i have tested the connection without the ethernet cables connected to eliminate any REIN from my PC or xbox360 and here you go have a look at those stats and tell me there isn't something wrong with this lol:
Connection Information
Line state Connected
Connection time 0 days, 21:01:00
Downstream 4,515 Kbps
Upstream 888 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation G.992.3 Annex A
Latency type Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up) 15.5 dB / 7.6 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 44.3 dB / 27.2 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 7.1 dBm / 1.3 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 824 / 11
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 187 / 0
HEC Errors (Down/Up) 1758 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote) 142 / 0
Now as the SFI advised that anything over 100 errors on FEC or even HEC can tend to be an issue just going to get worse. What i don't understand is why was the engineer not able to see these errors on his APTS test with the voyager 105 and i have seen these errors on 2 different routers even at the test socket. Another question would be why has my speed dropped from the 8Mb i was originally getting to 4Mb. It has gotten worse that is why and it is only going to get worse. I understand that BT won't change aluminium cabling and very rarely go near E-side cabling but what i don't understand is what makes them think they can charge you all this money and get you a crap service that doesn't even achieve 80% of the speed it should be achieving because of cabling that was laid 40 years ago. This is the 21st century not the 19th lol. I don't give up that easy and i will be applying more pressure to BT if this is not sorted out. I am hoping this will be a repeat SFI and will go to interventions. On that note a lift and shift won't do any good cause i had a TP modification when i was with sky BB and that made no difference cause the cabling is still the same.
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Router left on now for 3 days and i have had a drop again and a drop in the speed again. BT have been on the phone and guess what they are going to do a lift and shift. Mentioned to them once again about the aluminium and it was just shrugged off. Errors building as per usual. Latest stats:
Connection Information
Line state Connected
Connection time 1 days, 01:35:12
Downstream 4,443 Kbps <<<<<<<<<<<<decrease in speed
Upstream 888 Kbps
ADSL Settings
VPI/VCI 0/38
Type PPPoA
Modulation G.992.3 Annex A
Latency type Interleaved
Noise margin (Down/Up) 15.7 dB / 7.2 dB
Line attenuation (Down/Up) 44.2 dB / 27.1 dB
Output power (Down/Up) 7.1 dBm / 1.3 dBm
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote) 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Down/Up) 808 / 0
CRC Errors (Down/Up) 158 / 0
HEC Errors (Down/Up) 1244 / 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote) 116 / 0
Seems to be dropping every 2 days or so.
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Latest update. Sent yet another e-mail to BT last night almost demanding they send an engineer to the E-side and get the cabling changed to copper. Received a phone call and to my surprise they are tasking an SFI to the E-side to check the cabling. Fingers crossed it gets replaced ;D
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Awk well wishful thinking. Had my 3rd SFI sent out and i have pretty much been set straight BT are NOT going to replace this cable for me (guy lives up the road from me a bit and getting crap speeds aswell). Even found out they have already laid the fibre optic down the manholes up my way about 4 weeks ago for the FTTC however the SFI advised this was only for business's at the minute. Also found out i am further away from the exchange than i expected. Spoke with my friend that works at BT he advises i am 3.8Km which would be about right for that attenuation. So ran out of look even though at my current speed which is just under 5Mb i am still gathering errors.
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Gentlefolk,
Given:-
1. That I have been trying to PAY BT openreach to install a shorter route of about 400 m of 100 pr catenary to replace a lousy loop of 1.2 km for over two years. (The retail cost is about £3,000 for the cable)
2. general disquiet at http://winterbournestoke-thedigitaldivide.blogspot.com/ have 3,361 m of aluminium which BT say would cost £180,000 and they won't replace it. One reason for the excessive costs is that much of BT's cabling is just burried in the ground, which "saved" some money, and not in ducts so the entire length has to be re-excavated.
I just don't see BT replacing ANY aluminium that isn't in ducts and would expect that once it causes so much grief the only practical solution is to do the sensible thing and install FTTH.
Kind regards,
Walter
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I have to agree with Walter. In many cases where aluminium was used, it was done to cut costs in the first place. BT have no incentive to replace it and no penalty if they don't. The only thing that just might get the damn stuff replaced is if there is a telephony problem.
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Well they have made it pretty clear to me they have no intention on replacing the cabling due to cost. What makes me more angry is that they have already now laid the FTTC but god knows when they is going to be jumpered to the exchange itself. If they say this is only laid for now for business's then when does it go to residential. They are testing the balmoral exchange at the minute for the FTTC with 200 residential customers i think not to sure but it just seems we are so far away from getting this fitted in.