Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Technology => Topic started by: Ash888 on April 06, 2009, 12:54:32 PM
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guys iv been looking around for info on bt's adsl2 service or wbc.
basically last year i came across this, and on sites like samknows and of course on here. bt's 21cn and wbc are both set to be enabled in my area from the 31st march 2009, which was last tuesday. im currently with bt and as my contract was nearing the end i thought i would see if they are offering this service or il go elsewhere to get the same speed i am getting already for cheaper.
after being passed around, finally someone told me that it would upgrade automatically on my line from tuesday and after checking my line, he said i could get speeds of upto 9mb, i believe bt are only offering up to 10 at the moment with adsl2 until they enable more exchanged. they offered me discount on my current package option 3 aswell, so i waited and its now almost been a week with no change at all to my line stats.
i called back, and they told me it would be active from the 6th or 7th, as that is when the new contract will start.
i checked this site again today, and there is now a green light next to bt 21cn with speed on 9mb. last week it was red and unavailable. so there must be something going on.
i was wondering if someone can tell me more about this, as im worried that i might have just tied myself down to another contract and not getting what i was told.
are bt currently offering an adsl2 service to customers?
your help would be most appreciated.
thanks
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Re contracts, you are probably covered by Distance Selling Regulations which means there is a 'cooling off' period.
Have a look at this,
http://www.oft.gov.uk/advice_and_resources/resource_base/legal/distance-selling-regulations/
but you must act quickly.
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There arent many ISPs that are actually using WBC at the moment.
Although I have seen a few BT lines showing the higher sync speed, its seldom you see anyone actually getting the higher speeds.
AFAIK they dont actually offer it as a package. They were doing some 'trials' a few months back when some users volunteered to go on the service, and only the trialists were put on the higher speeds... and afaik for the time being at least they aren't accepting any more whilst they iron out a few problems.
IIRC the only ISPs that are offering adsl2+ via WBC now are
The entanet ISPs
Andrews and Arnold.
Plusnet (Trialist only - but any user on a WBC exchange can request to go on the trial)
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thanks guys
really helpful info, i guess it was a bit too good to be true, but i guess il take it up with them.
i live less than 2km from the exchange, so out of the 'upto 8mb' im getting 6.5, with sync at 7.6 on router.
so i was expecting any changes to be noticeable in the stats.
il let you guys know what happens.
thanks again.
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update:
my line stats have updated, so bt do offer adsl2.
im getting 10.6 and uploads of around 700.
router stats showing sync at 13408 and 855 upload.
so all good at the moment.
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>> router stats showing sync at 13408 and 855 upload.
Excellent - thanks for letting me know. They presumably must have re-opened their trials and put you on it :thumbs:
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Added - Just been doing a search on the BT site and came across this page (http://www.broadband.bt.com/superfastbroadband/) if anyone else is interested.
In the next few months, BT will be rolling out ADSL2+ to new and existing BT Total Broadband customers! ADSL2+ is even faster broadband providing download speeds of up to 20Mb
/snip/
Up to 20Mb will be available in the coming months. Your local telephone exchange needs to be upgraded for you to get up to 20Mb. Hundreds of exchanges have already been upgraded and we are currently carrying out trials to make sure we provide a high-quality faster broadband service as soon as possible!
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yeh sounds good, i think they are keeping it at around 10mb for now, until more exchanges have been upgraded.
like i said before, i live just around the corner from the exchange, so luckily i get a good connection and usually some of the highest speeds that they offer.
let you know how it goes over the next few days.
thanks for your input.
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yw.
Please do let us know how it goes.
im getting 10.6 and uploads of around 700.
router stats showing sync at 13408 and 855 upload.
Thats probably about right - a sync of 13408 will give you an IP profile (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/IPprofile.htm) of 11000, so your actual throughput speed will likely be a bit under that.
What operating system do you use? You may get a little more by tweaking your MTU (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/tweak2.htm) - or rather RWIN if you have XP.
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thanks kitz
im using vista, and iv been using the belkin n1 router for that past 1 1/2 - 2 years.
il check out the link.
also, iv noticed my noise stats have decreased, might be temporary but upload has a big drop.
downstream used to be around 6 anyway, but now iv seen it as low as 5,
upstream went from a steady 19 to 6 aswell.
you think it will just take a few days for the line to settle?
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>> im using vista,
The bigger speed increases are normally made by tweaking your RWIN - unfortunately Vista doesnt allow RWIN tweaking.
Theres a little bit about RWIN in vista here (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/vistaTCPtweaks.htm), but it may not be worth it. If you were on XP it could well be.
>> iv noticed my noise stats have decreased, might be temporary but upload has a big drop.
If you mean the SNRM has change between you being on max and adsl2+, then this is perfectly normal.
Expect your SNRM to decrease by about 3db on average for each 800 kbps of increased speed. (3dB = anything from 400 to 1200 kbps of speed depending on your bit loading).
To complicate things further if you were able to sync at around the full 7/8Mb previously when on Max, its possible that powercut back may have been employed by the DSLAM, which will have reduced your signal strength in turn lowering your SNR. Now you are on adsl2+, all lines should now run at full power.
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i had a look, my mtu in router is set at 1432 default, so i changed my pc mtu to the same, is that right? and would i do this on all computers connected and would it be beneficial on the ps3 aswell?
i used to tweak settings in xp but never looked into vista since i got it as the connection was good enough.
i read alot of the info on the site, so i was aware of some changes to the stats which are expected when changing from adsl to adsl2.
heres my router stats below as of now, sometime the noise value fluctuates.
i also just noticed that the interleaving is no longer there, read about that on here aswell.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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>> my mtu in router is set at 1432 default, so i changed my pc mtu to the same, is that right?
Possibly in that case it may be best changing the router MTU rather than having to mess with all the PCs.
The router MTU should never be lower than the PCs, or else it can become a blackhole and can cause dropped packets - particularly if the remote server has ICMP turned off. (Such as M$, hotmal, ebuyer and some other secure sites).
MTU/RWIN tweaking can be beneficial on XP, but due to the different way Vista handles the TCP/IP stack its not really worth messing about unless you have obvious problems through blackholing. I went back to XP on my machines, but when I had Vista on I did notice speeds were slower over LAN traffic, so just disabled auto-tuning.
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Re your stats.
They kind of look ok, just a bit lower speeds than I'd anticipate for a good 27dB line.
Normal recommendation is check internal wiring and filters. Test from test socket behind the nte5a if you have one.
I also notice your output power from the dsam is at 23.3 dBm - not something you'd normally see,
Usual is somewhere around 19-20dBm... but its not something I would complain about as more power output gives a stronger signal. :)
Noise Margin fluctuations during the day is normal - its usually worse in the evenings.
Re interleaving, your line will currently be going through a training period. Presumably as with many ISPs on Max, at first Interleaving is off.. but the DLM will automatically turn it on if it would be beneficial to the line.
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im in a new build flat, so i dont have a test socket, im currently using a line in the bedroom but when i plugged it in the living room socket, it was the same.
i guess there is nothing i can do about the line stats, so il keep an eye on them and see if anything happens over the next 2 weeks.
based on your max speed adsl test, i should be able to get up to 15mb, as bt told they have only just started rolling out so they will most probably increase it later. but i cant complain with what im getting anyway.
with regards to the mtu: im not too familiar with it, what would i set the router mtu as? or how can i go about finding out?
i did a ping test in cmd with the -f -l mtu. after i set pc to 1432, only 1404 gave me 0% loss, something about 28mb header?
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just to update...i was getting 10666 on speed tests before last friday, all of a sudden the line rate dropped to around 12000 and the speed dropped by 1mb too 9666.
i left it over the weekend to see if it went back at all but it didnt.
today i checked and its back up to 10666, i guess its due to the line settling.
im happy with the speeds, but i decided to check o2 and be broadband again today, as i was considering them before i renewed with bt.
and they are now offerend LLU service in my area which i am now gutted about as i can not cancel my contract.
i had a feeling that 02 and be would be enabled on my exchange at the same time that bt upgraded to adsl2. they did but only confirmed it on the 15th april. which is a shame because i really wanted to jump to BE.
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Its not unusual for the line speeds to vary - they always will as its dependant upon your SNR. My own SNR has dropped quite a bit over the past few weeks.
Something that I have noticed on my own line is that it is often worse during school holidays etc where it will stay lower... this could be due to the fact that the neighbours are home more using their electrical stuff.. or it could be that more users are online during the holidays therefore this will increase something called crosstalk which cant really be avoided.
Be/O2 upgrading exchanges are completely independent of any 21CN roll outs, its entirely up to the LLU ISP as and when they fit their equipment in what exchanges.
Be/o2 seem to do a 'batch' in certain areas, whilst 21CN seem to be going on their own rules.. probably the largest first, although from what Ive seen it is in general being done first in those exchanges which were the first to be adsl enabled rather than location.
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another thing i forgot to mention, my line rate drops overnight, during the day it is over 13000 usually around 13495. but in the morning when i check at around 7-9am it goes down to 12000 usually a whole 1000 drop from whatever the rate was during the day.
but when i restart the router in the morning, it goes back above the 13000 mark. any ideas? this never used to happen before on normal adsl line, it was always fixed at 8616.
i think i should be over the stabilization period...line was active on the 7th.
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Ash, that's pretty normal.
On your 8meg service you were well within the limits so always got the same (top) speed.
With ADSL2+ your line gets the best it can, which is not the full 24mbps. A major factor affecting speed is external electrical interference which is commonly worse in the evening, significant overnight and lowest in the morning. So, if your router resyncs for any reason it will typically get a better speed in the morning than evening/night.
It's probably best to resync it mid-evening (9pm ish) then just leave it and hope it stays stably connected. If it doesn't there may be a problem.
If I resync my ADSL2+ line mid-evening it stays connected for weeks (at around 21mbps - currently 20.8 ). If I connect in the morning it may last a few days at 22meg or so, but more likely than not disconnects early one evening and resyncs slower.
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thanks HP
its a bit frustrating thats all, im just trying to make sure im getting the best speed i can get...i spoke to bt last week and they did confirm that they are offering upto 20mb with adsl2. and he was putting it down to an old line coming to my area which is the problem as to why im getting around 10 instead of nearer 20mb.
im 1.9km from the exchage and with normal adsl i was getting 6.3 out of 8. around 75% now im getting 10 out of 20 actually less than half as its uaully around 9.
its great that your getting 20mb, are you with bt? and how far are you from your exchange.
my old flat is 3km away in the opposite direction from the exchange and where i live...when i do a line test on that it says 17mb.
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I'm about 1km from the exchange but my line is about 50% longer than that.
Not BT, and they don't even have a date of any sort for my exchange related to 21CN or ADSL2+.
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A 27db line in good condition (check all your wiring etc) as a guide would be expected to get somewhere around 16.5 Mbps tops.
Because of the line length its highly unlikely to get the full 20Mb im afraid.
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Thanks for all your help guys, well after a few more weeks, i managed to get BT to let me go and im switching to BE next week, so fingers crossed i wont have any problems.
BT had always been stable for me, but the adsl2 line was fluctuating too much, i was syncing at 13000 and getting download speeds of 5.3?!
i had to reboot the router to get 9.6mb back.
and my upload would go from 855 to 448 and back again with the upstream noise margin at 23!
the other thing is, BE are estimating my line at 8mb, even though i am getting more. im not too bothered about this, as i think i will stay on about the same, obviously hoping for more but not getting my hopes up.
my line attenuation is really bugging me though, i dont think it should be that high. theres not a lot i can do if its an old or poor quality line but does any one know who i can contact to get them to check it out? without any ridiculous fees. in terms of wiring in my flat, all sockets give me the same result, and there is no master or test socket behind any of them.
il let you know how BE is when im active.
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Hi
quote : and there is no master or test socket behind any of them.
You should have one master socket. if its the older type then you should be able to identify it ,it has a capacitor in it . see this link
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm "No NTE5 Master Socket?" section .
Regards Jeff
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ah, i found it, it was in one of the cupboards, with all the other junction boxes, for satellite feeds etc.
after connecting the router to the test socket are removing wires 3 and 4. the downstream sync went up to 15300 and the attenuation dropped from 27 to 26.5.
but the throughput was still at 9.6mb. that was yesterday and my upload jumps between 448 and 855 everyday, usually overnight. and the upload noise also goes from around 7 to 24.
this morning, the sync is fine 15300 down and 855 up. noise is also fine. and the throughput is up to 12.5 which i suppose is right for a 15000 sync.
i should be syncing at 17/18000 iv seen people with 27db on those syncs.
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Hi
quote from KitZ
A 27db line in good condition (check all your wiring etc) as a guide would be expected to get somewhere around 16.5 Mbps tops.
NOTE good condition .You are doing well
i should be syncing at 17/18000 iv seen people with 27db on those syncs.
I think you are a little optimistic .That May happen with exceptionally quiet Lines and perhaps tweaking lower SNR .Don't forget it is dependent not only on Attenuation but on SNR margin BTW what is yours?
throughput is up to 12.5 that seems a little low your profile should be about 14Mbps
Regards Jeff
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thanks jeff, i dont mean to come across as greedy, im not, but i just get the feeling that theres a problem with my line.
this morning im getting different results again.
sync has dropped again to around 12000, throughput at 10.1mb.
noise margin has been constantly fluctuating since moving from adsl max, where it was constant at 6/7
adsl2 varies through the day from as low as 5 to as high as 12. right now its on 12.5 along with the drop in sync. normally between 7/8 though.
im currently getting out of BT and migrating to BE this week, should be wednesday. so im going see what happens when im active with BE.
as you say i can then tweak snr and see what i get. but hopefully BE can get the settings right from the start.
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Hi
Good luck with your change over . :)
Regards jeff
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Ash888,
I have a similar problem to you on my line, although I am not on ADSL.
My line is very noisy, and therefore although I could probably easily sync at 8128kbps I only manage about 7200kbps with a stable and steady connection.
Although your attenuation is 27dB (mine is 30dB), as Kitz says, it doesn't mean that it isn't noise free, not many lines are, except the very very short ones.
The reason you aren't seeing the speeds you expect could be due to some noise when you last synced up, it could be the SNR Margin - which in your case relates to BTs DLM.
If you could post your complete line stats, SNR Margin, sync, etc, we will take a look at them for you :D
Hopefully you will be able to tweak your line more when you get onto Be*, but it doesn't mean that you will get the speeds estimated, as they are just estimated :D
Let us know how it goes :)
Regards
Jamie
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thanks guys i will definitely report back on my experience with BE once im live.
for now my stats are showing:
data rate(down/up) 14362 / 855
noise margin(down/up) 11.6 / 6.6
power (down/up) 21.3 / 12.4
attenuation(down/up) 27.0 / 12.8
i had a play around with the test socket after the sync dropped this morning. and it would only go upto 14000 and not in the 15000's as it was before.
and the noise was still at around 12 and has stayed up there.
1 thing i notices. the adsl filter i am using is an old BT one which i got when i was probably on 5mb. i got the new ones wit the home hub and more with the BE box, (those filters are the same) i tried the newer ones but they sync at 13000 where as the older one syncd at 14000. the noise remained the same with all filters, no improvement with newer ones.
i understand the issue of noisy lines, well so far the BE customer service has been excellent and other people having been having similar issues which have been resolved.
they will send out a bt engineer to look at the line if they cant resolve it with a few tweaks.
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>> i should be syncing at 17/18000 iv seen people with 27db on those syncs.
My calculations are based on the default SNR Margin of 6dB. Each 3dB of SNR is worth anything between 400-1200 kbps of speed depending on your bit loading.
Quite a few people tweak their lines taking their SNRM down, this will obviously impact on the speed they can attain.. but it will likely affect stability of the line.
If your line is fluctuating by 7dB, then it is not recommended that you tweak the SNRM lower as you will get frequent disconnects.
Would be best investigating to see if you can find out what is causing the fluctuations in SNRM.
>> noise was still at around 12 and has stayed up there
Be gives you more flexibility for changing your Target SNR Settings.. be aware that SNR, SNR Margin and Target SNR (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats.htm#SNR), whilst related are not the same thing.
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guys, iv been activated on BE ahead of schedule, went live tonight.
it seems as though the issues i mentioned have been ironed out themselves or by BE, lets hope they stay this way.
this is what im getting now with the BEbox. as long as it stays like this im happy.
Uptime: 0 days, 1:54:44
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,317 / 17,512
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 18.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 12.5 / 25.5
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 6.5 / 6.0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 1 / 546,385
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 1 / 10
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 13 / 5
as you can see attenuation down to 25.5, noise has gone to 6 which is BE's standard settings. and im gettins a sync of 17000.
i wont tweak settings until after the line settles but i probably wont need to.
now i just have to get used to the new router.
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Those stats are about right for your Attenuation ;D
I would say leave it all as it is as there don't seem to be any issues there and your speeds are as they should be :) Error rates are all ok and if the SNR Margin behaves you should have a very sturdy and stable connection :D
As for the router, I believe you can use your own router on Be*, not sure of the settings though - do know that you have to wait something like an hour so a different router can connect?
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thanks JID,
i think i know how to set up the belkin to work with BE but the bebox seems to be faster and offered more information which i need while i monitor the line over the first few days.
i wanted to make a point of the errors and loss stats, i have not have to come across these before as the belkin didnt show any of this. so i dont know what they mean or represent, could someone clarify for me please.
on a couple of occasions the router has reset it self and restarted, it actually just happened now while i was typing this msg. when this happens i loose 1mb from sync and speed. usually the noise raises aswell but it hasnt just yet.
Uptime: 0 days, 0:03:08
DSL Type: G.992.5 annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 1,321 / 16,353
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [kB/kB]: 0.00 / 0.00
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 12.0 / 18.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 13.0 / 26.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 6.5 / 6.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / BDCM
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 48 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 16 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 54 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 2,837
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 1,114 / 0
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it seems as though the issues i mentioned have been ironed out themselves or by BE, lets hope they stay this way.
this is what im getting now with the BEbox. as long as it stays like this im happy.
Looking good. :) :fingers:
wanted to make a point of the errors and loss stats, i have not have to come across these before as the belkin didnt show any of this. so i dont know what they mean or represent, could someone clarify for me please.
[/url]
The main site carries an explanation of the different types of errors you may see - Explanation of errors (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats_errors.htm).
Generally speaking divide the amount of errors by the amount of time the router has been up for. Its fairly normal for a errors to slowly rack up over a day... and sometimes its experience and getting a 'feel for things' and how your line performs.
Lots of errors together arent good and these will trigger off some of the more serious alarm states.
FECs show that the line is interleaved and error correction is working as it should, so nothing much to be too concerned about with those.
Be aware though that Be*'s MSANs continue to record the upstream error count for CRC/HEC errors and these seldom if ever get reset.
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Those stats are looking pretty good :D
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thanks guys, appears to be sorted now, no losses no disconnections, i think it was BT doing some work outside in the morning.
i tried out the test socket for the 1st time with BEbox yesterday, i was syncing at 18000, i cant run cables from the front door to my room but im not loosing much from my extension so im not too bothered, il try BE speed configuration in a weeks time once i know my line is stable over that period, i should be able to get 18000 then.
Thumbs up for BE.
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kitz
can DMT tool be used to change any settings on the thomson 585v7?
from what i have read, its read-only.
is there a way around this yet?
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>> from what i have read, its read-only
It is indeed Im afraid.
Thompson bowed to pressure from a certain UK ISP and totally removed the ability to be able to do so.
Even from within the CLI there isn't anywhere the target SNR can now be amended from. I spent one evening to see if I could perhaps find a way to do so.. but nada. Many many more have also spent long hours seeing if its possible but so far Thompson seem to have locked this down pretty well.
There is of couple of lines of thought that I did have last year...
1) Broadcom chipsets should all have some sort of shell access as they use BusyBox linux.
- Unfortunately, unlike other broadcom based routers... no-one as yet has been able to access any of the thompson/ST busybox commands and Thompson seem to keep that hidden away too.
2). Since these routers are based on busybox (same as with linux)... this brings about a major point which no-one seems to have taken Thompson up on yet.
Busybox (http://www.busybox.net/about.html) is open source and therefore anyone using it is supposed to also distribute the source under the GPL.
~ Netgear do for their broadcom based routers (which is why there are such things as DG Team and Uber Firmware)... and allow some sort of shell access.
~ The D-links that use the broadcom chipsets allow shell access, and make their code available.
~ BT Voyager series that use the broadcom chipsets all allow shell access... but more interestingly BT got taken to task approx 4 years ago because they didnt make publicly available their source... and ever since have had to make the source available to those who request it.
~ BT also got their wrists slapped again 2 years ago for GPL violation on the HomeHubs. linky (http://www.zdnetasia.com/news/software/0,39044164,61984520,00.htm).
.. so this begs the question how have Thompson got away with it?
...... and even better - the homehub is based on which router.. surely not speedtouch?
.......... oh..... and guess which ISP it is, that is rumoured to have got Thompson to lock down their routers so that users can no longer access these commands.
:-X
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lol
thanks for the information.
i was thinking of switching to a netgear, bet i didnt have the best experience with the one i had many years ago, but alot of people are raving on about them now.
the reason i wanted to change snr was my connection becomes unstable at 3db with fastpath. 3db on interleaved is fine, iv now actually been put on 'fastpath inp 2' which as you probably know, isnt fastpath its just a difference depth of interleaved. at 6db fastpath works fine.
i just wanted to tweak from 6db downwards until i find a stable point with fastpath.
i asked BE themselves but they say they can only set to specific 3, 6, 9 and 15.
apparently my line suffers from random impulse noise, at night. 3db with fastpath ran perfect when i first switched, then after the first night i had signal loss, it didnt really recover after that which resyncs during the day.
they say theres no point in getting an engineer to take a look, as its random they might not find anything and then id have to pay 150.
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>> i was thinking of switching to a netgear,
Some of the netgears have broadcom chipsets - which are the ones that are raved about. - specifically the DG834GT and the DG834Gv4. The earlier DG834s used AR7 chipsets... so make sure you get the right one.
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i managed to get hold of a sky router from my cousin, who has joined o2 now. so he didnt need it.
its the dg834gt.
im having a few issues flashing it thought, im using vista, i read that there are a few issues flashing with vista.
tried computability mode, and administrator.
the wizard comes up, i click next,
i can see my network port, click next,
then it messes up...i can see the previous screen in the background in the wizard, but the next screen is over the top.
so it has the firmware version etc and 4 fields, the top 2 have data in them, the bottom 2 are empty.
if i click back, the next screen comes over the top, asking to select device but there is no device in the field.
if i click next from the previous screen it takes me to the upgrade screen, if i click upgrade i cant click anything else and there is no progress on the bar.
i dont have an xp computer, trying to find somone who has, everyone got vista now.
also, i have the router in recovery mode.
any ideas.
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This page (http://www.kitz.co.uk/routers/skyDG834GT_flash.htm) may help.
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Hi Ash888,
Do you have any friends with an Apple Mac ?
You can usually avoid difficulties using either Firefox or Safari.
Terminal would also let you telnet into the router.
Kind regards,
Walter
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It doesnt always behave too well with vista, but should work as long as you are running as Admin and make sure the required files are run in capatability mode.
Its also important that no other network devices are attached to the PC or router.
A problem can also occur with some of the Vista drivers, so if it wont on yours ideally it should be done on an XP machine.. or even try from another Vista machine that has a different network card.
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thanks kitz, looks like il have to find an xp computer from somewhere. as iv tried all those things.
i had a spare HDD lying around so i swapped it with my main vista drive, and installed xp, when it restarted i get an error,
error loading operating system.
at this point im thinking how many black cats have walked in front of me today, as nothing im trying is working. lol
i read its something to do with the master boot record, but i didnt go further into this as i dont want to mess anything up when i put my vista drive back in.
is the mbr on the drive itself or the MB.
the drive used to be for my music and video files but i replaced with a larger 1, so there was no operating system on it before i guess thats why there is no mbr?
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The master boot record (MBR) is the first sector on the hard disk. When you installed XP it should have written its own boot code to the MBR in order to boot the OS, but it looks as though this didn't succeed for some reason.
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what can i do to fix this?
i dont have a floppy drive, so cant boot from there using dos program.
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At a guess I would say that the installer didn't mark the disk partition as bootable, and perhaps that's something which can be specified during the installation, but not being a Windows user I really don't know.
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its ok guys i managed to sort it and flash the router.
just to let you know...
booted xp from cd, and let all the files load...
choose R to get into repair console mode.
choose the HDD eg.1/2 etc.
then type: FIXMBR
you get a warning message
type: Y to continue.
then go back and install xp and it worked.
then managed to flash the router. and install dg team firmware.
thanks for your help guys.
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nstall xp and it worked.
then managed to flash the router. and install dg team firmware.
thanks for your help guys.
Youre welcome... glad that it worked :)
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sorry 1 more thing, do you know how to get the router stats from the netgear.
i can see the sync and uptime etc, but does it show error and loss stats?
telnet is a bit long, iv done it once, wandering if there is an easier way.
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With the DGTeam firmware you should be able to get the extra information from the web interface. Under the Maintenance section select Diagnostics, then click the 'Display' button for the option "Display detailed ADSL driver informations".
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ah thanks thats brilliant.
so many options didnt know where to look.
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guys, how come the netgear is able to hold a sync at low snr?
can a router really make that difference, i thought it was down to the actual line from the exchange to your home.
the bebox was giving a slightly higher sync but was not able to hold fastpath at 3db.
also, is there a reason why speed test done from a ps3 are faster than the ones i do on my pc? it can be a difference of 500 - 1000 more.
although the pings are higher.
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guys, how come the netgear is able to hold a sync at low snr?
This has always been seen as one of the strengths of Netgear routers. The process of establishing a connection and holding onto it is very complicated - the complete ADSL signal is made up of many separate frequencies (called bins) and different numbers of bits of data assigned to each bin, depending on how much noise there is on each. Then, as signal conditions change over time, bits of data are swapped between bins as some of them get more noisy and some get less noisy. Eventually a point may be reached when there aren't enough usable bins to sustain the present connection speed with an acceptable error rate, and then the router re-syncs.
It just happens that Netgear routers seem to do all this rather well.
also, is there a reason why speed test done from a ps3 are faster than the ones i do on my pc?
This may be an MTU issue. See this (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/tweak2.htm) and the associated pages.
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well what ever its doing i hope it continues.
thanks for the explanation aswell.
as for the ps3, iv left the ps3 mtu as auto, and vista is 1500 as default i think.
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actually 1 more issue...lol
when playing on ps3 online with cod5. other players have serious lag problems when i am the host.
now i cant choose to be host or not, but when ever all players are in the lobby i always get picked to be the host.
i know its only me, as i asked me mates to invite me into a game after they had joined, that way a host would have already been chosen, this worked fine.
but the host left in the next game and guess who became the new host... :angel:
iv contacted BE about it, they just told me to make sure i havent got any downloads on the line as that can slow things down. but when ever i use the ps3 i make sure everything else is off. he also suggested someone ping my ip to see if there were latency issues - which i havent been able to do.
upload noise is at 3 - 4.
i had ping response off, but have enabled it now and it still the same.
netgear stats as follows.
Status: ShowtimeRetrain Reason: 8000
Channel: FAST, Upstream rate = 1403 Kbps, Downstream rate = 20581 Kbps
Link Power State: L0
Mode: ADSL2+
Channel: Fast
Trellis: U:ON /D:ON
Line Status: No Defect
Training Status: Showtime
Down Up
SNR (dB): 2.9 3.6
Attn(dB): 26.0 14.3
Pwr(dBm): 18.4 12.4
Max(Kbps): 23410 1399
Rate (Kbps): 20581 1403
G.dmt framing
K: 226(0) 40
R: 0 0
S: 1 1
D: 1 1
ADSL2 framing
MSGc: 51 16
B: 225 39
M: 1 1
T: 3 3
R: 0 0
S: 0.3795 0.9785
L: 4764 327
D: 1 1
Counters
SF: 1609579 1632085
SFErr: 4273 301
RS: 0 0
RSCorr: 0 0
RSUnCorr: 0 0
HEC: 1548 194
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 1267568391 300509320
Data Cells: 6582275 5781385
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 15864
ES: 2743 252
SES: 6 1
UAS: 44 147
AS: 26115
INP: 0.00 0.00
PER: 16.22 16.14
delay: 0.09 0.24
OR: 28.10 10.90
Bitswap: 4980 98
Total time = 7 hours 16 min 17 sec
SF = 1609579
CRC = 4273
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 2743
Latest 1 day time = 7 hours 16 min 17 sec
SF = 1609579
CRC = 4273
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 2743
Latest 15 minutes time = 1 min 17 sec
SF = 4760
CRC = 5
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 5
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 55454
CRC = 107
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 72
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
SF = 0
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 0
15 minutes interval [-30 min to -15 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 55454
CRC = 132
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 96
15 minutes interval [-45 min to -30 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 55454
CRC = 156
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 104
15 minutes interval [-60 min to -45 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 55515
CRC = 159
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 109
Showtime Drop Reason: 8000
Last Retrain Reason: 8000
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Looking at your stats, youve had a few CRC's and errored seconds.
CRC (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/error_correction.htm#CRC)s are when data packets have been dropped due to the signal being weak. During this period, things will be a bit slower as the datapacket has to be re-transmitted.
However the errors arent particularly high and overall shouldnt really be that noticeable.
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Ive tried some tracerts and pinging you and your latency from here is pretty damn good.
Although, one thing that has just occurred to me... of late Be have had some issues with latency on some of their peering... afaik they fixed most of them... but I wonder if you go through one of the affected peer points when you host.
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thanks Kitz, il get onto BE and see if this is the case.
il let you know what happens.
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You should be able to tell yourself by doing a tracert to the other persons IP.
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i ran f8lure test over night and i thought id show you the results. alot of red so i guess there is something wrong.
on top of that there has just been some thunder and lightening and heavy rain this morning from about 4am.
nothing was using the connection overnight, all devices were shutdown so just the router was on as normal.
also, i just remembered that it cant really be the low snr as it used to be fine at 3db with interleaved.
so i guess the problem is with fastpath...
or it could just be cod5
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Attached below my f8lure graph over the same period for comparison.
After looking at yours it doesn't really look like what you would see if it was one of the Be gateway/peering points having problems.
>> also, i just remembered that it cant really be the low snr as it used to be fine at 3db with interleaved.
>> so i guess the problem is with fastpath...
It really would be worth while setting up routerstats to monitor your SNR margin and your errors.
By any chance do you have a high error count this am?
When your SNR gets too low often a line is able to handle it find on interleaved, as Forward Error Correction (FECs) are able to correct a large amount of errors.
If you switch off interleaving on a line that has a lot of FECs, then theres a strong possibility that that the FEC count will then become a CRC count.. CRCs are when the data has to be retransmitted because the data packet is corrupted because of noise.
If this is the case on your line, then you have 2 options:
1) Apply interleaving which will automatically be able to repair the packets without having to be re-transmitted... but this carries a small over-head of increased latency times.
2) Increase the Target SNR to the next stage, which gives your line a bit more lee-way so your signal part of the SNR is a bit stronger... the downside of this though is that your sync speed will be lower.
It may be worthwhile increasing your target SNR for a short while through the Be control panel to see if this does increase your stability.
You can then decide if you wish a lower sync speed with better latency or vice versa.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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when im on interleaved at 6db i get a graph like yours. FEC errors are usually quite high as i recall on the thomson.
ps3 was on for a couple of hours, i was trying cod again, but no joy,
played fifa 09 and it was fine.
the graph while im playing looks fine with no packet loss as shown bellow. from 8 till now.
the red line after 8am was when i became host and was experiencing the same problems, i then stopped and switched to fifa.
see what you make of that. also the red line packet loss only appear when the ps3 is off. could this be down to settings on the my pc?
it happens even if my pc isnt on...
error look like this
Total time = 22 hours 23 min 27 sec
SF = 4964435
CRC = 41891
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 16292
Latest 1 day time = 22 hours 23 min 27 sec
SF = 4964435
CRC = 41891
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 16292
Latest 15 minutes time = 8 min 27 sec
SF = 31281
CRC = 106
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 85
Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 55454
CRC = 149
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 125
Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
SF = 0
CRC = 0
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 0
15 minutes interval [-30 min to -15 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 55515
CRC = 537
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 315
15 minutes interval [-45 min to -30 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 55454
CRC = 640
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 335
15 minutes interval [-60 min to -45 min] time = 15 min 0 sec
SF = 55454
CRC = 462
LOS = 0
LOF = 0
ES = 257
Showtime Drop Reason: 8000
Last Retrain Reason: 8000
i am going to increase the snr, but i am only able to adjust the downstream snr via the dgteam fw. isnt it mainly the upstream snr which is concerning us?
[attachment deleted by admin]
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iv changed snr so down snr will stay at around 4db,
when set at 3db it usually drops to 2.8db where as upstream stays at 3.4 - 3.6
they dont fluctuate but gradually move up or down over the course of the day.
im running routerstats il post back results later for you to analyse.
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had all kinds of things happen over the past few hours.
after adjusting the snr to 4db the f8lure graph began to look normal again, i was still looking at how to solve the ps3 problem.
i made a few changes in the router settings and that cause packet loss on the graph aswell, but then it just went crazy.
after looking on the BE member centre, it said there is maintenance work being carried out today and they confirmed that it was effecting my area. even though it said until 18:00 it was done in a few minutes and the graph showed the line settling again.
i was monitoring the noise using routerstats, and found that my noise was slowly dropping from 4 down to 3 again. so i pushed it up again and it started coming down again.
at this point i was in the middle of all that red in the graph, so i thought there was a problem at my end and switched back to standard 6db.
so my line is showing more stability again but i just tried the ps3 again and the problem is still there.
i guess its a problem with fastpath now, but my connection was working fine with everything else. its a shame if i have to change it just for this game.
to be honest thats mainly my brothers game, so i dont mind if it doesnt work, but then he cant really do anything else.
i will run router stats overnight, to see what effects snr.
more on the graph: it continues from the last 1 i posted.
shows from when i increased downstream snr
then maintenance working being done
then the line was switched to 6db fastpath.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Were you running Router Stats when you got those results in the f8lure graph?
That would help diagnose this one more easily.
That would allow us to eliminate your connection, as that looks to me more like a spurt of noise caused CRCs which affected throughput and latency.
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yeh i was running it at the time. but as i said it doesnt show too much change.
the drops were when i increased noise margin and the router needed to resync.
but as i said all the packet loss in that short time was due to network maintenance, which is show at '14:31:50' until i reset to standard 6db - its been fine since then
its just the ps3 game iv got a problem with.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Try User Defining CRC errors as a graph (SF Errors)
- On the Router Search Text Tab within the Settings of RouterStats
- Highlight the "Down SF errors"
- Then Click User Def 1
- Then Type CRC then OK.
That will give us an idea to CRC behaviour as that SNR graph is very good indeed.
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i dont seem to be able to do that...in the router search text it only has the basic netgear stats, tx, rx etc.
noise was stable again over night. i stupidly forgot to reset my router noise margin to default, so it was at 8db instead of 6db. but i sorted that now.
f8lure graph looked alot healthier, no red until i just adjusted the router settings this morning.
the ps3 is doing my head in thought, i just cant put my finger on it.
i would just use the thomson again, but that doesnt have dmz, i have to port forward about 8 ports for each game.
also, thomson wont hold sync at 3db with fastpath like the netgear does.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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The f8lure graphs monitors latency between your router/PC and Toms server.
It would be usual to see latency increase if any other traffic is passing through the router.
Total time = 22 hours 23 min 27 sec
CRC = 41891
ES = 16292
approx = 31 CRCs per min & 12 ES per min.
On its own and if it was spread evenly then the router should be able to cope.. but if the noise is in bursts over a shorter time period then a cluster of noise bursts caused by the SNRM being too low could well be your problem.
By giving yourself a bit more target SNR this could improve things a fair bit.
>> the ps3 is doing my head in thought, i just cant put my finger on it.
Just a thought.. the ps3 itself isnt perhaps generating some background EMI type noise?
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i dont think the ps3 is generating background noise, its only 1 game and only 1 aspect of that game where i have a problem...when i host, everyone else lags.
i tried hosting a private party with my mates, and it was fine.
i just had a drop in connection for some reason? this kind of thing never happens especially as i have increased the snr.
maybe it is something to do with crc but if bursts were causing the problem then would that show a reaction in the snr via routerstats.
or would the bursts just show a drop like any other disconnection.
iv currently got spi firewall running on the netgear, can i disable it? NAT is still enabled - but then i have the ps3 ip in DMZ so it shouldnt make a difference right?
BE have been looking into my pings and there are no problems with latency either. as you also tried for me Kitz.
i also tried ping and traceroute while i was host, and results were the same, although webpages were taking a little longer to load.
im beginning to think its the netgear, as the bebox was fine. thats why im considering going back and just disabling the firewall to get around the dmz.
but i wont be able to hold fastpath at 3db.
do you know if the thomson 585v7 supports dmz without the be firmware?
iv also seen telnet commands for CONE and DMZ
when i did the dmz telnet on the bebox i got nat 3 on the ps3 and upnp unavailable.
f8lure graph was looking good up until this morning, connection was fine but showed a spike of reds between 7 - 7:30. then at 8 i had the drop.
do you think that the adsl nation faceplates or iplate will make a difference to noise?
im thinking its probably better for people with less stable lines than mine, i dont know if i would see much benefit.
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RESULT!
i have been playing cod online as host without problems or other people lagging.
it was a long day, which started with a lot of disconnection, i switched to the bebox so that i could take a look at the crc errors, i kept getting disconnected as soon as the router reconnected. in the end i just turned it off and left the line free for an hour.
when i came back to it, i connected the netgear again, and reset it and setup the connection again and disabled the SPI firewall.
i kept everything else default so ps3 wasnt put in dmz.
i left the pc on for a while to monitor errors or to see if the disconnections were still happening. but it was fine so i put the ps3 on.
tested the connection upnp available and NAT 2 as normal.
then called my brother to sit there an call me when he became host.
as usual i got picked to host straight away and it was fine. played for hour or so and hosted a few games and the problem seems to have gone.
i think it was mainly down to the SPI firewall. as it was checking every thing that was trying to connect to me.
il leave it at 6db with fastpath until i know im not getting any more disconnections and then see how low i can push the snr.
thanks for your help.
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I'm glad that you seem to have found what it was.. thanks for reporting back... and let us know if it continues :)
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online gaming has been fine since then so im glad that is out of the way.
but im still getting heavy packet loss at around the same time on most days.
i have been lowering the snr from 6db to find a optimal point so far i have gone down to 5.1. but when i get heavy packet loss it seems to push snr up towards the 6db mark.
check out my f8lure graphs. i wish i had known about this before i would have tested it when i was with bt to see if its always been like this.
im not 100% but it may be down to a small leak from an upstairs apartment in my flat. im on the ground floor, and i can some times hear water drops in the wall. this is the same wall with the extension im using for my router. im just wandering if thats having an effect on noise or even directly on the cable itself if it is anywhere near water.
i could open up the socket and have a look behind but iv been lazy.
[attachment deleted by admin]
[attachment deleted by admin]
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also...is it alright to have a difference in up and down snr.
usually the difference can be about 1db, but most of the time it is the same.
right now down snr is 4.4 and up is at 7.
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HI
quote but when i get heavy packet loss it seems to push snr up towards the 6db mark.
when SNR goes up it shows less noise on line . normally a good thing . The only time increased SNR is bad is when it is forced (target SNR increase )
quote . also...is it alright to have a difference in up and down snr.
More often than not the up stream is different to the down stream usually upstream is higher (edit : because of the lower frequencies used ). Remember the SNR displayed is the SNR margin (elbow room)
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats.htm good explanations on this link .
Regards Jeff
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thanks mate.
well its happened again. around 7am. im trying to think what it could be like any interference etc. i get back from the gym just after 7. so nothing has been in use and my computers are off. just router on. i wander if someone jumped on my wireless???
[attachment deleted by admin]
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If the packet loss was due to noise, youd expect it to be worse when the SNR Margin was lower.
SNR Margin fluctuates all the time.. its usually worse in the evenings.
If your packet loss increased when the SNRM went up.. then its most likely to be a co-incidence and not related.
Low SNR can cause packet loss.. not the other way round.