Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: feliscatusx2 on March 16, 2007, 09:22:18 PM
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Just read your post on PUG re RIN.
Very informative.
I still cannot find out whether an ADSLMaxed line is required to use RIN. I'm still on ADSL 2Mb PAYG, and will probably stay there until the local BT exchange treats itself to some new cables. So would I be wasting my time trying RIN?
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Hiya
No, you don't have to be on a Max line to use RIN.
RIN is simply a different way of routing your traffic to the Internet, i.e. it doesn't actually pass through any of the the ISP's own network. It doesn't matter what speed connection you have.
Don't fancy dipping your toe in the Max waters then?
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The info was a bit muxed up and not really formatted, it was more something Id done fairly quickly because there were a lot of rumours going around how it worked.
When I get chance I'll try put something else together in a more readable format with a nice diagram.
*adds something else to my to do list :D
>> So would I be wasting my time trying RIN
Nope not at all, the only downside is loss of static IP.
About an hour ago I was downloading from usenet well in excess of 750 KB/sec at peak, which is maxing my line out.
No ellacoyas for even slight shaping.
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Thanks, I may give it a go.
I'm holding off Max for now because of 49 Db attenuation. If Max does not work well and I then request a return to 2Mb fixed, I am likely to end up with a lower speed because of that attenuation.
So for the present I will assume that BT have not noticed that I get 1.9+Mb and keep very quiet. Hopefully the exchange will be recabled before too long.
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Can anyone try this RIN thing or does it depend on your ISP?
If so, how do you configure things?
BTW, what does RIN stand for?
Thanks, Terry.
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feliscatus - I understand now why you're reluctant to try max - it's a risk to take and you're right, BT would be highly unlikely to let you drop back down to 2Mb fixed if need be.
Canon - RIN stands for Retail Internet Network - it's basically BT Retail that are re-selling their broadband capacity that they in turn have bought from BT Wholesale. Because of the economies of scale, BT Retail seem to have more capacity per user than some smaller ISPs.
BT sell this capacity in 100Mbps chunks, but not really, everyone gets lumped together with the BT users as far as I understand it. So therefore a small ISP who would traditionally have 2 x 155Mbps pipes can buy say 300Mbps of capacity from BT Retail on RIN, and put their users onto it. Now, because that's part of a MUCH larger network, those users are much more of a drop in the ocean compared to what they would be on the ISPs own pipes.
I'm not explaining it very well, but basically because of the fact that contention works so much better when it's scaled up to massive customer numbers, the BT retail network performs a lot better than a lot of small ISPs could manage.
I don't think Metronet are trialling RIN at the moment, but with the PAYG model they operate it would definitely suit it, much like PlusNet are trialling it with their PAYG customers. I'll ask for you :)
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>> everyone gets lumped together with the BT users as far as I understand it.
Youre running straight off MSiP and the colossus backbone out on to the internet - no "pipes" at all. Hence why I can tracert you via the RAS.
Ive seen too many people still think "pipes" rather than blocks of usage which is what prompted me to write that post in the first place.
From what I can suss BTw does all the charging from the RAS RADIUS logs.. and the ISP gets billed for what their customers use (in blocks). Although there must also be something monitoring traffic volume by ISP realm as it leaves colossus. Theres no lighting of pipes etc.. and when an ISP goes over their block - they have no option other than to pay for another chunk. Ive described it basically as PAYG for ISPs.
There are 2 types of RIN - standard and CBC... aside from iirc no max on standard - the major difference that I can see is that CBC RIN has:-
An option for BT Central Plus with Capacity Charging is to support the interfacing of
customer equipment located on a Broadband PoP site for use with BT Central Plus. This
equipment will be under the control of the Customer. This will allow the Customer to
develop amongst other things, feature rich services for their End Users and control their
bandwidth demands.
Any ellacoyaing would have to be done on each and every PoP in the UK, which means purchase of a lot of ellacoyas. hmmm how many are ellacoyas were BT meant to have bought a year or so ago? ;)
Since PN dont have any where near that amount of ellacoyas then there isnt any way they can do, without becoming very integrated with BTr profiles. PN is billed for their own usage and things (for now at least) are being kept separate then it could be a while before PN customers on RIN see any shaping.
I dont forsee many other ISPs hopping on to the RIN network just yet either - Too many heavy peaktime users and it would cripple them because of the *have to purchase blocks*. They are either going to need a minimum of 22 ellacoyas? or pure PAYG traffic to make it work.
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I don't think Metronet are trialling RIN at the moment, but with the PAYG model they operate it would definitely suit it, much like PlusNet are trialling it with their PAYG customers. I'll ask for you :)
From what I can figure there may a slight hitch with MN going on RIN
†You can continue using your service beyond the Usage Ceiling, but speed restrictions will be applied to some peak-time (4pm – midnight) usage – read the Metronet Broadband Network guide for more information.
PAYGo Option 1 - Price ceiling (max cost per month) £22.74 :-X >:D
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This is currently only being offered to PlusNet PAYG customers. The justification behind this is that MetroNet customer are rate limited during peak times if they surpass their "usage ceiling" which isn't something we're currently capable of doing on the RIN Network. Such rate limitations do not occur on the PlusNet PAYG product hence why MetroNet customers are currently excluded from the trail.
HTH.
James
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OK so I'm now on RIN, as of about 6 minutes ago.
Seems no different, speeds about the same, so I may as well stick with it until it all goes pear shaped.
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OK so I'm now on RIN, as of about 6 minutes ago.
Seems no different, speeds about the same, so I may as well stick with it until it all goes pear shaped.
lol yeah not that much difference for me either speedwise for http ftp... but usenet is a bit better although because you were on PAYG then you probably wont notice that either.
Latency is definitely better though because of the BT routing, and no central pipes to pass through, and you go out on the nearest PoP.
So say for eg if I trace chris - then the route is
me >> Manchester RAS >> chris.
Whereas before it would have been
me >> Manchester RAS >> Ilford PoP >> Plusnet Network in London Docklands >> Ilford PoP >> Manchester RAS >> chris.
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What's interesting is that RIN seems to bypass the bRAS / Stable Rate limitations.
James
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What's interesting is that RIN seems to bypass the bRAS / Stable Rate limitations.
James
Really? Thats quite interesting.
How did you find this out, any more info on this James please.
I have seen BT customers being limited by profiles.
Ive love to test this theory, but my profile is 7150 so dont think theres much chance of ever exceeding that. :D
Just done a speedtest though for the hell of it and got
Download Speed: 7057 kbps (882.1 KB/sec transfer rate)
edited to show screen grab 902.5 KB/Sec
(yeah I know overheads).
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Now you're just showing off :P
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... and making some of us rather jealous. :'(
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I don't know for a fact, but I've seen a couple of instances of customers running speedtests giving results higgher than the profile being shown by BT as well as that being applied at our end.
James
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Now you're just showing off :P
Naw... if I wanted to do that - I'd show you the speedtest result I got shortly after I'd been maxed. I got a couple of weird ones around that time
May have been a fluke though because according to the rules - it just aint possible... and is pushing the boundaries of max
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I don't know for a fact, but I've seen a couple of instances of customers running speedtests giving results higgher than the profile being shown by BT as well as that being applied at our end.
James
Thanks for that info james - interesting :)