Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: happy37 on January 12, 2009, 11:20:43 AM
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Hello everyone
Am on the 1mb fixed ADSL service with Virgin Media at the moment and all is well.
However, I will be switching over to the Max service on Thursday this week and would like to know what speeds I can expect with my line stats:-
I'm more than happy with my fixed service, yet, as I said, I have also switched to using a Netgear DG834GSP router.
What do you think?
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 1152 kbps 288 kbps
Line Attenuation 53 db 15.5 db
Noise Margin 12 db 25 db
What speeds can I expect with these stats, and is there any room for improvement?
The downstream Noise Margin changes at various times of the day, and I have seen it go upto 21db...should this not be static, and is all this changing up and down normal?
My phone and other bits and pieces are set up as follows:-
1. Cordless phone - plugged into filter.
2. Fax machine - plugged into filter (rarely used though, and it's only switched on when needed)
3. Sky box - filtered as per the above.
4. Router - plugged straight into phone socket via the cord using a plugin lead/socket...no filter used. (Should I be using a filter here or not?)
I have also noticed that there is a Block Terminal Connector by the front foor of the property - am I able to open this or not to see if this is all wired OK, or is this BT property and only they can check?
http://kitz.co.uk/adsl/btsockets.htm
Have also checked round the house at the weekend and checked the BT sockets to see how they are.
As I don’t have a BT Master socket, it's just one of the ordinary type ones and it was put in by a BT engineer mate of mine, so I know that one's OK.
However, I opened up the socket that the fax machine is connected to and found that wire 3 was connected. I snipped that one out carefully.
All the other sockets are newly wired, so they are all okay.
Please feel free to add any other information that you think may be relevant.
Thanks for your help - look forward to your response.
Regards
happy37
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Hi and welcome
With a good 53dB atten line you are looking at a maximum sync speed of around 4Mbps - see max speed calculator (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/max_speed_calc.php).
However, the maximum speed calc is based on a 6dB Target SNR, and your current Noise Margin of 12dB doesnt really have 'too much play'.
The downstream Noise Margin changes at various times of the day, and I have seen it go upto 21db...should this not be static, and is all this changing up and down normal?
A variation of 9dB Noise margin isnt unusual on longer lines, but when it comes to dslMax you will find that this can affect your max sync speed. If it varies that much then its an indication of a noisy line and possibly picking up some interference somewhere.
Bit of light reading time I'm afraid - with a variation of that much then it will be useful for you to know and understand the difference between SNR (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats.htm#SNR), SNR Margin (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats.htm#SNR_Margin) and Target SNR (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats.htm#target_SNR)... and just how they can and will affect your line.
Router - plugged straight into phone socket via the cord using a plugin lead/socket...no filter used. (Should I be using a filter here or not?)
Yes, the adsl filter helps terminate the adsl signals and stop reflections back down the line.
Its also often worth double filtering fax machines if you have a spare - plug a filter into a filter- this is a trick known to help many lines that have a fax machine.
Block Terminal Connector by the front foor of the property - am I able to open this or not to see if this is all wired OK, or is this BT property and only they can check?
Yes its ok to open it and have a look, however dont touch/move any of the wires - particularly the A+B that comes from the drop wire.
As I don’t have a BT Master socket, it's just one of the ordinary type ones and it was put in by a BT engineer mate of mine,
There should still be one socket somewhere that is designated the master, but these are often harder to distinguish if you dont have an NTE5. The master socket will be the one that has the ring capacitor (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/btsockets.htm).
I opened up the socket that the fax machine is connected to and found that wire 3 was connected. I snipped that one out carefully.
Good stuff - check and remove others if necessary - even if newly wired there's the possibility that the ring wire could still be connected to one of them.
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kitz
Thanks for your reply - I have made a point of what you have said and will follow up on that...i.e. plugging the router back in via a filter, and also maybe trying to double filter the fax machine.
Having said that, if I decide to not go down that route again, should I not just ask my BT engineer friend to install a NTE-5 filtered faceplate instead?
Please provide links so that I can see what these look like - what are the benefits of having a faceplate?
(I know that I won't have to plug filters into every socket where something is connected, yet what else?)
As I don’t have a BT Master socket, it's just one of the ordinary type ones and it was put in by a BT engineer mate of mine,
There should still be one socket somewhere that is designated the master, but these are often harder to distinguish if you don’t have an NTE5. The master socket will be the one that has the ring capacitor.
As per the above, I think that I will get him to check that out - can you not fit a filtered faceplate even though a Master socket is not fitted?
I will either check all of the other sockets myself or get him to look for me (hopefully before Thursday), and I will report back as to how things go.
Thanks for your help - if you have anything else to add, please feel free to do so.
Regards
happy37
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The older style LJUs can only be converted to an NTE-5 box by BT Openreach Engineer and BT takes an extremely dim view (and charge) if you've attempted to DIY.
They will know because only BT can supply the proper BT logo ones.
There is a way that you can legally do it yourself and thats by following the instructions on the bottom of this page (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm)
However, since you have a friend who is a BT engineer, he may be able to get hold of a BT NTE-5 and fit it for you. ;)
Once the NTE-5 is installed you can then add adsl filtered NTE5 faceplates yourself.
Please provide links so that I can see what these look like - what are the benefits of having a faceplate?
The adsl filtered faceplates are the best way to improve your line as it filters the 2 different frequency signals at source.
Theres more info and pictures of NTe5 faceplates on this page
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm
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The older style LJUs can only be converted to an NTE-5 box by BT Openreach Engineer and BT takes an extremely dim view (and charge) if you've attempted to DIY.
They will know because only BT can supply the proper BT logo ones.
Funny you say that - I haven't attempted to DIY at all...I'll probably get my mate to do so for me ;)
Please let me know also - if the ADSL/voice signals are filtered “at source” by fitting a NTE-5 BT socket - am I right in thinking that once that is done, then I won't have to use any filters at all in the house for fax/Sky/PC etc...please advise?
Thanks and regards
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Please let me know also - if the ADSL/voice signals are filtered “at source” by fitting a NTE-5 BT socket - am I right in thinking that once that is done, then I won't have to use any filters at all in the house for fax/Sky/PC etc...please advise?
That's correct, although extra filters won't do any harm, and it sometimes helps to have an extra filter for the Sky box (often a source of interference problems).
[Edit] I misread the question - see HPSauce comment below.
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Eric
Thanks for that!!! - will pop back in due course to let you all know how it goes.....
Regards
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if the ADSL/voice signals are filtered “at source” by fitting a NTE-5 BT socket
No, they are not. :o
To do this you need to fit a filtered faceplate to the NTE5A in place of the user-removeable lower section and reattach any extension wiring to the appropriate terminations on the back of faceplate.
There are different designs, some providing unfiltered and filtered extension capabilities. All that I have seen have 2 external sockets on the front - RJ11 for broadband and BT-style for (filtered) phone.
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You're quite right HP, I misread the question. If an NTE5 with a filtered faceplate is fitted, then my answer above would be correct.
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Those figures for line attenuation and SNR are very similar to mine. I get max synch of about 4500kbps with it usually being rock solid at 3776kbps so I get a BT profile of 3Mb. It may not be as fast as Billy Whizz (if you ever read the Beano!) but it is a much better service than I had on 1Mb fixed last a few years ago.
I had similar concerns to yours at that time about whether I would see a real benefit moving from a fixed line but I think it is well worth it. Once you get up to 3Mb or so then marginal increases/decreases in speed don't seem to me to make a lot of difference for just general surfing use (I'm not a game player so have no speed worries of that sort!) Good luck with it all on Thurs - and don't forget it will take a few days to settle down and find its own happy level :)
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Hi
Synch speed is just one part of the service I am connecting at about 6000Kbps with a 5000Kbps profile but my downloads are rarely better than 1000Kbps between now and 11PM.(tiscali) you may be luckier . :)
regards Jeff
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Those figures for line attenuation and SNR are very similar to mine. I get max synch of about 4500kbps with it usually being rock solid at 3776kbps so I get a BT profile of 3Mb. It may not be as fast as Billy Whizz (if you ever read the Beano!) but it is a much better service than I had on 1Mb fixed last a few years ago.
I had similar concerns to yours at that time about whether I would see a real benefit moving from a fixed line but I think it is well worth it. Once you get up to 3Mb or so then marginal increases/decreases in speed don't seem to me to make a lot of difference for just general surfing use (I'm not a game player so have no speed worries of that sort!) Good luck with it all on Thurs - and don't forget it will take a few days to settle down and find its own happy level :)
jazz
I like your way of saying about Billy Whizz!!! - are you stats still similar to mine now that you've upgraded to Max, or have you found that they are stable...i.e. the fluctuations in downstream noise margin and so on??? Have the stats settled or not?
Let me know - I think that can see and understand why I've got these concerns though. I think and hope that I will be fine as like you, I don't get time to play games online or offline for that matter!!!
but...
for general use, emails and downloads, it'll be fine.
On a last note, though, at the end of your post, you say that it will take a few days to settle down and find its own happy level :) :-
How did you manage to work through the 10 day period with regards to the line settling? I would like to know as to how you dealt with switching the router on and off (I've been advised to make new, frequent connections to the Net). Did you do this by just plugging the router on and off at the mains or via the router login pages?
Thanks for your help - if you have anything else to add, please feel free to do so.
Regards
happy37
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(I've been advised to make new, frequent connections to the Net).
I'm generally in the camp of 'leave it alone' and it will find its own level... and wouldnt recommend doing so too often as this can have an adverse re-action and fool the DLM into thinking that its through instability/loss of sync if you do it too often. Once a day is fine.. The DLM system in theory should be able cope with many more, but experience has shown that the DLM often has a mind of its own and doesnt necessarily follow the theory. :/
Because your SNRM fluctuates quite a lot, then its likely that a sync in the morning will give you higher speeds, but come evening when the SNRM drops, the line will drop and eventually the DLM will increase your target SNR to compensate. If this starts happening then because of bRAS/IP profiles then youre unlikely to get the actual throughput speeds of the higher sync anyhow as it may take a few days to catch up.
Depending upon as and when your SNRM drops you may be better just letting the router resync at the lower level and leaving it be, unless its an unusually large drop in speed.
Going onto Maxdsl wont stop the SNR fluctuations, in fact your connection on max will be more affected than on a fixed speed product.
IMHO if you are feeling a bit geeky then you would be far better off grabbing a copy of the excellent routerstats (http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm) and using it to monitor your SNR Margin. You may even find a pattern of times is recorded as to when your SNRM starts to drop which in many instances has helped people track down where some sorts of interference is coming from which causes the SRNM to dip.
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(I've been advised to make new, frequent connections to the Net).
I'm generally in the camp of 'leave it alone' and it will find its own level... and wouldnt recommend doing so too often as this can have an adverse re-action and fool the DLM into thinking that its through instability/loss of sync if you do it too often. Once a day is fine.. The DLM system in theory should be able cope with many more, but experience has shown that the DLM often has a mind of its own and doesnt necessarily follow the theory. :/
Because your SNRM fluctuates quite a lot, then its likely that a sync in the morning will give you higher speeds, but come evening when the SNRM drops, the line will drop and eventually the DLM will increase your target SNR to compensate. If this starts happening then because of bRAS/IP profiles then youre unlikely to get the actual throughput speeds of the higher sync anyhow as it may take a few days to catch up.
Depending upon as and when your SNRM drops you may be better just letting the router resync at the lower level and leaving it be, unless its an unusually large drop in speed.
Going onto Maxdsl wont stop the SNR fluctuations, in fact your connection on max will be more affected than on a fixed speed product.
IMHO if you are feeling a bit geeky then you would be far better off grabbing a copy of the excellent routerstats (http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm) and using it to monitor your SNR Margin. You may even find a pattern of times is recorded as to when your SNRM starts to drop which in many instances has helped people track down where some sorts of interference is coming from which causes the SRNM to dip.
kitz
Good morning - thanks for your really helpful reply - I think that I will leave the router alone for the first 10 days to do its own thing and only connect/disconnect via the router connect/disconnect options once a day, if that even (or do you advise just switching on and off from the mains instead?)
However, one of the most useful things is what you've mentioned at the end of your post regarding “routerstats” - I downloaded a copy of that as soon as I read your reply, and I will start to monitor my SNR Margin from Thursday when the new Max connection kicks in. The only query I have is whether I should run the program on its default settings, or do I have to configure it in some manner to use it with my Net connection?
Please advise - thanks again...
Regards
happy37
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The only query I have is whether I should run the program on its default settings, or do I have to configure it in some manner to use it with my Net connection?
You need to do a little configuration - at the very least you will have to enter your login details for the router. Routerstats comes with pretty comprehensive online help; just click the Help button when you run the program.
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Eric
Thanks for letting me know - will have a look in due course..... ;)
Regards
happy37
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@happy37
You also sent your reply to my posting on this site as a PM so I've replied to that by personal message too.
The general guidance is not to mess about too much - the system will tend to find its own level and too much interference/help on your part may be counterproductive. If you allow the system to settle down and then come back on here after the 10 day training period if you feel there are problems that people may be able to help you with that may be a better route in the long run. :)
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@happy37
You also sent your reply to my posting on this site as a PM so I've replied to that by personal message too.
The general guidance is not to mess about too much - the system will tend to find its own level and too much interference/help on your part may be counterproductive. If you allow the system to settle down and then come back on here after the 10 day training period if you feel there are problems that people may be able to help you with that may be a better route in the long run. :)
jazz
Thanks for this reply - have also replied to your PM.....
I will now pop back on here after the 10 day period with my stats so that people will see what they're like and also to see if things can go better.....thanks once again, much appreciated.
Watch this space.....
Regards
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kitz, jazz and all others that replied.....
Here's an update:-
I was told that everything would be up and running today between 8am and 8.30pm tonight, and hey presto, I checked earlier and it already was!!! :) ;) ;D :D
Here are my current line stats (with another 2 questions, though...duh!!!)
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3200 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 55 db 15.5 db
Noise Margin 6 db 13 db
As you can all see, the downstream attenuation has gone up from 53db to 55db (is this a good or bad thing?), and the upstream attenuation has not changed from being 15.5db, yet the upstream noise margin has changed from 25db to 15db. Please can someone explain or interpret these stats for me in plain English?
I have also noticed that the downstream noise margin goes as low as 3db, 2db and even 1db? - can I get this any higher or improve it, or is the connection just in the testing phases at the moment?
Is this the max that my line can handle, or is there any room for further improvement?
Please correct me if I'm wrong, yet don't you all think that the connection/sync speed is strange for Max IP BRAS speed profiles?
The last thing that I would like to know and have a definite opinion on is this:-
I am connecting via an phone extension in my room to the phoneline...would you all say that it's worth my trying to run an extension cable with a modem connector and plug that into the “Master” (with a yellow ring capacitor) - not Master as such, socket downstairs near the front entrance of the property, and then plug the router into that? I will plug the other BT end into the BT phone socket with a microfilter?
If you all agree that I should try the above to see if I get better speeds/a better IP profile, what's the best way to do this without upsetting the connection so that it will register as a line fault at the exchange? Please can someone explain that for me in plain English?
Or, enough said, should I leave all alone to see how things go from here?
I really do appreciate all of the time and effort that everyone has taken to explain things to me as I am a complete newbie to moving to a Max package, and I would really like to know how to make the best of things with my phoneline and current stats.
Thanks once again for everything...I look forward to all of your responses in due course.
Regards
happy37
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Hello happy37,
I'm not a frequent visitor here but I do a lot of similar work in the Surrey Hills Jungle.
Your line performance figures are certainly not brilliant and the very low varying noise margins are a significant concern.
Some "defensive engineering" seems important for you to be able to maintain a stable, reasonable speed, conection.
1. I would definirely get a filtered face plate on a standard master socket - either the old NTE5 + ADSL Nation filtered face plate or the newer BT Openreach faceplate - see the picture at the bottom of Step 3
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/tools/phone-socket-identification.html
2. I would connect the broadband router directly to the master socket and use Homeplugs** to distribute the ethernet signal around the house on the mains wiring. That might also allow you to turn off wireless networking - I know this might be heresy to some, but any way to reduce RFI (Radio Frequency Interference) in your circumstances is a wise precaution.
** Herewith a link to a homeplug supplier to explain the device but this is not a particular recommendation. There are many manufacturers of these devices including Netgear. Given that the broadband speed is comparitively low, there is little point in buying very expensive high speed home plugs which are more sensitive on long electrical cables.
http://www.solwise.co.uk/net-powerline-pl-85pe.htm
I hope this helps,
Walter
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Walter
Thanks for letting me know...will bear these points in mind if and when the time comes to change things around.
However, are you or anyone else able to advise on my point:-
I am connecting via an phone extension in my room to the phoneline...would you all say that it's worth my trying to run an extension cable with a modem connector and plug that into the “Master” (with a yellow ring capacitor) - not Master as such, socket downstairs near the front entrance of the property, and then plug the router into that? I will plug the other BT end into the BT phone socket with a microfilter?
If you all agree that I should try the above to see if I get better speeds/a better IP profile, what's the best way to do this without upsetting the connection so that it will register as a line fault at the exchange? Please can someone explain that for me in plain English?
Thanks again.
Regards
happy37
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Hello happy37,
2. I would connect the broadband router directly to the master socket and use Homeplugs** to distribute the ethernet signal around the house on the mains wiring. That might also allow you to turn off wireless networking - I know this might be heresy to some, but any way to reduce RFI (Radio Frequency Interference) in your circumstances is a wise precaution.
** Herewith a link to a homeplug supplier to explain the device but this is not a particular recommendation. There are many manufacturers of these devices including Netgear. Given that the broadband speed is comparitively low, there is little point in buying very expensive high speed home plugs which are more sensitive on long electrical cables.
http://www.solwise.co.uk/net-powerline-pl-85pe.htm
I hope this helps,
Walter
Hi
I would like to pass on my recent experience using home plugs. I very recently fitted an ADSL Nation faceplate downstairs in the kitchen and plugged my router directly into the ADSL socket and used home plugs ( I have had them for several years so not a new purchase) to send the signal to my PC upstairs in the spare bedroom. I was very happy, because after fitting the faceplate and using this method I found I had increased my synchronisation by 3000mbps. Several weeks later I changed my mind on the layout and hard wired from the faceplate (there is an outlet on it) to the router in the spare bedroom and found I synchronised at another 3000 to 4000mbps higher. If I were you, if it is not too difficult, I would hard wire (using exactly the same specification wiring that BT uses but in white) from the the faceplate to the router next to your PC. Using this method, you will have eliminated all interference to your ADSL signal in your home and will with a bit of luck have the cleanest unfiltered ADSL signal that is possible for your line length. In your case, it might be possible to obtain a better more stable SNR with a chance of higher synchronisation speeds.
For your information, I was with PIPEX one year ago and I was getting around 4 meg download. Since moving to TalkTalk and carrying out the rewire plus going to ADSL2+ and and paying a little extra (£4) for the speed boost and changing my profile to 2FSNR6, I have now have a synchronisation of over 19000mbps with a consistent download of 16meg.
I can if you wish I can list the items I used to do this and the items are not to dear. By the way, using phone line extensions are NOT the best way of sending ADSL signals around your house. They are ok for voice, but nothing else. It is not essential but in my opinion it is best to do this before the 10 day training period has finished.
I hope this helps.
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The general guidance is not to mess about too much - the system will tend to find its own level and too much interference/help on your part may be counterproductive. If you allow the system to settle down and then come back on here after the 10 day training period if you feel there are problems that people may be able to help you with that may be a better route in the long run. :)
This is the best advice to follow until you've been connected for 10 days. What the stats are saying now won't necessarily be what they say in 11 days time ;)
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GunRunner and Oranged
Thanks for sharing your thoughts - think that I will leave all things well alone to see what pans out at the end of 10 or 11 days time.....
Do you know whether I will be able to access certain stats like the amount of errors and so on from my Virgin supplied Netgear DG834GSP router version 3 please?
Thanks
Regards
happy37
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GunRunner and Oranged
Thanks for sharing your thoughts - think that I will leave all things well alone to see what pans out at the end of 10 or 11 days time.....
Do you know whether I will be able to access certain stats like the amount of errors and so on from my Virgin supplied Netgear DG834GSP router version 3 please?
Thanks
Regards
happy37
I would say yes, I have a Netgear DG834G v4 and with the DGTeam firmware loaded and with this router firmware combination, you have a good chance at synchronising at lower SNR margins with a lower chance of drop outs and getting better results. I would suggest getting everything up and running first then progressing in easy stages if everything is new to you.
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GunRunner
I would suggest getting everything up and running first then progressing in easy stages if everything is new to you.
I think you're right - all of this is new to me (making the step from a fixed package to a Max one), so I think I will watch, wait and learn as the days tick on.
Please feel free to add anything else if you so widh - thanks for your advice...much appreciated.
Regards
happy37
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happy37
Sent you a PM!
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hello again Happy37,
Here's one I prepared earlier ! I thought you might like to see an example of line rate adjustments.
This connection was very bad until a BT Filtered Master socket was fitted on 19th December.
You'll see we were very happy up to early on 29th December but then something happend after that which caused a drop which sadly has remained ever since. However it's still a lot better that it was at the beginning.
Good luck !
Walter
[attachment deleted by admin]
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walter
Thanks for this - all of this is new to me (making the step from a fixed package to a Max one), so I think I will watch, wait and learn as the days tick on.
I will come back and post my stats after the 10 days are over to see if they are any better in comparison to the first day ones.
Please feel free to add anything else if you so wish - thanks for your advice...much appreciated.
Regards
happy37
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Hi there, Happy37,
Please don't anybody think I'm contradicting other advice (e.g. GunRuinner and Walter) here, as I know their experience reflects that of many others. However, it's worth mentioning there are exceptions. I have a similar line length to yours (55dB attenuation), so I have to struggle a bit to get about 4Mbps but, when I tried it, I gained no measurable benefit from connecting to the master socket. So my router is happily connected in a convenient distant extension. It may be worth experimenting first if you can, before splashing out cash on extra hardware.
Unfortunately, each 'experiment' that you try carries a huge risk of having BT's DLM flag your line as 'unstable', which will cause it to assign you a punitive noise margin which will recude your speed. This effect would probably be worse during the ten-day period, but the same risk still applies even after the 10 days are over and I don't think there's any way around it. If you do decide to experminent after the ten days then, at the very least, make sure you don't reconnect anywhere near ten times within an hour. I experimented a little too much one day last August, and am still suffering the consequences. :'(
If you do upset BT's DLM, and get a punitive noise margin then, depending upon how Geeky you are (no offence to Geeks) , with some routers you can get around the punishment by subseuqently tweaking the noise margin - there's plenty of info elsewhere on the forum, and it worked well for me. Alternatively you can try pleading with your ISP (who have to ask BT) to ease back the noise margin, but they (BT and/or the ISP) may not always choose to co-operate - mine (Demon) were hopeless. It's best, really, if you can avoid it in the first place.
- SLM
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SLM
Thanks for your reply - what you have said is really helpful to know.....I have made a note of your points, and indeed I will make sure that I will not reconnect 10 times within 1 hour!!!
I intend to reboot my router on Sunday morning, then on Wednesday morning, and then finally on Staurday morning of the following week.....do you think that this will be okay?
Please advise - thanks!!!
Regards
happy37
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sevenlayermuddle
Excellent advice about messing around with the line. I found the best thing was to switch off the router, carry out all the wiring and then reconnect. By doing that only once, you are not giving false information to the equipment in the exchange. By the way, for anyone who has the opportunity of going to the LLU provider TalkTalk, I would seriously consider doing it, because once you are with them, you join their company forum as opposed to just a user forum and they will try different profiles (in consultation with you) for you to get the best out of your line. When I say try different profiles, they do it within minutes of your request as one of the ladies (EmmaL) does it whilst you are online with them.
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Hi happy37 again.
Wise words from SLM !
Squeezing the last drop of ADSL blood out of the creaking copper is definitely more of an art than a science !
I'd suggest leaving the modem alone unless it locks up and therefore requires re-booting.
Unfortunately you'll see from my example above that the 10 day period isn't the end of the story; without any BT Universal Service Obligation there is absolutely nothing an end user can do, except perhaps spending a fortune ceasing the service and then reapplying.
(There's also very limited ability for the ISP as well.)
Rgds,
Walter
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One more comment,
I wrote my last in parallel with Gunrunner's.
Local Loop Unbundling (assuming your exchange is enabled) is slightly different although it still relies on BT Openreach for any repairs to the actual line.
I believe O2 / Be will also attempt adjustments for you. I'm going to stop now as we're straying off-topic !
Kind regards,
Walter
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To all that replied.....
Thanks for sharing your thoughts and for all of kind words of advice - think that I will leave all things well alone to see what pans out at the end of 10 or 11 days time.....then I will pop back and post my new (hopefully better stats).....watch this space..........
Thanks again and regards
happy37
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Thanks for your reply - what you have said is really helpful to know.....I have made a note of your points, and indeed I will make sure that I will not reconnect 10 times within 1 hour!!!
I intend to reboot my router on Sunday morning, then on Wednesday morning, and then finally on Staurday morning of the following week.....do you think that this will be okay?
Hi again,
I quoted the 'ten times in an hour' as I've seen that as an 'example of instability' in various BT documents and I suspect it's a sure fire way to upset things, but DLM does appear to be a law unto itself and IMHO you can take nothing for granted. DLM also takes account of line error rates, for example, as well as the number of times you reconnect.
My own experience was that during my first year or two on DSL Max the occasional reconnect, say a couple of times in a week, caused no problems. Then one day I stupidly reconnected ten or twenty times in a few hours whilst trying out different combos of sockets and filters, and paid the price. DLM appears to have been much more sensitive ever since.
As long as you're sensible (and I wasn't), you probably don't have to worry toooooo much.
Good luck,
SLM
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SLM
Thanks again for popping back with this advice...will pop back in due course to let everyone know how it all goes..........
Regards
happy37
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Glad to see you are successfully connected happy37. I think you are well advised by all the messages you have got here. It can be quite tempting to keep getting better speeds - and you ought to get the best speed and stability you reasonably can - but if what you are receiving suits your purpose why risk causing problems to yourself? For your routine browsing and emails a steady connection is important to you and as far as speed goes, once you get above 2Mb you won't necessarily see much real effect on your actual web experience for the kind of things you are doing. :)
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One final thing that some of you might be interested in seeing.
The pictures below are on an installation out in the sticks over 6 km from the exchange using a Thompson TG585v7 router / modem.
This is the best modem I've found for noisy long lines.
K R
Walter
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Hello everyone
Am now back with a performance related query:-
Bearing in mind my setup (taken from my original post), which is basically as below:-
My phone and other bits and pieces are set up as follows:-
1. Cordless phone - plugged into filter.
2. Fax machine - plugged into filter (rarely used though, and it's only switched on when needed)
3. Sky box - NOT filtered, yet plugged in...reason being that we don't want children in the house pressing the Red button on Sky remotes leading to expensive phone bills. I made a mistake on my initial post by saying that the Sky box was filtered and it isn't. Should I add a filter here even though the phone lead is NOT plugged in?
4. Router - plugged into a filter and then into the phone socket.
I have also noticed that there is a Block Terminal Connector by the front door of the property
From reading on here, I don't know if it's an RF2 or RF3, yet I will get my BT mate to look at it when he pops over to check everything out.....however, more to my point, there are also other extensions in the house that don't have anything plugged into them (no filters or telephony equipment):-
Corridor - Master socket...old BT style, I will check tonight to see what type it is and will let you know.
Kitchen - unused socket
Outside office - 2 totally unused sockets.
What I want to know is, with this entire layout, is there any way at all that I can streamline my ADSL Max connection so that I can try and squeeze the best performance out of it? Can I not hard-waire from the Master socket direct to my router, or something along these lines?
All advice in plain English please!!! - thanks.
I don't think that I've missed any other sockets out...please feel free to add all info that will be useful to me. Also have to add that a lot of this wiring is all fed into a BT RedCare alarm box which is connected inside an airing cupboard...most connected sockets are fed from that. Apart from ripping up carpets again and so on, what's a neat way of working around this?
Thanks once again to all - really is much appreciated!!!
Regards
happy37
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General advice is to put a filter on the Sky box
-
Filter the Sky box.
(they are infamous for messing up broadband) >:D
Ideally, if you have spare filters, double-filter devices in the following priority:
1. Sky box
2. DECT phone
3. Fax
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jazz and HPsauce
Sky box - NOT filtered, yet plugged in
Apologies, I'm beginning to misread my own posts!!!...duh!!!
By the above, I mean to say that there is a filter plugged into this socket for the Sky box, yet the box itself is NOT plugged into the phone connector side of the filter, reason being:-
that we don't want children in the house pressing the Red button on Sky remotes leading to expensive phone bills.
Should I plug the box back into the phone socket as I don't want the box dailling out to Sky at all!!!
What would double filtering do? - I double filtered the fax machine previously, and I think that it makes things worse for me as my downstream SNR margin dropped, yet when I went back to 1 filter, all was OK?
Please advise? - any other comments about the rest of my setup, please? Ezzer, for example?
Regards
happy37
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Bearing in mind my setup (taken from my original post), which is basically as below:-
My phone and other bits and pieces are set up as follows:-
1. Cordless phone - plugged into filter.
2. Fax machine - plugged into filter (rarely used though, and it's only switched on when needed)
3. Sky box - NOT filtered, yet plugged in...reason being that we don't want children in the house pressing the Red button on Sky remotes leading to expensive phone bills. I made a mistake on my initial post by saying that the Sky box was filtered and it isn't. Should I add a filter here even though the phone lead is NOT plugged in?
4. Router - plugged into a filter and then into the phone socket.
Apart from the Sky box (which doesn't need a filter) are these all plugged into one linebox in the one room ? If so what is the layout re. doublers or extension leads ?
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Oranged
Thanks for your reply - here goes:-
they are all in different rooms and locations in the house, and are all fed off hard-wired phone extension sockets which are all filtered (apart from the sky box which is not plugged into the phone line)
Any ideas please?
Thanks
-
Hi happy37,
The house wiring you've described is one of the best descriptions of a birdsnest I've seen for a long time !
Apart from the filtering, which is vital, there's a very good chance that the entire circuit is picking up noise from all over the house.
(E.g. don't leave a DECT phone transmitter or any other wireless devices too close to any phone wiring.)
If at all possible the incoming line should go direct to a Master NTE5 integral filtered socket and your modem should be connected directly to that. All your other house phone wiring is then also filtered at this point so you may not need any other filters, but by all means experiment.
The attached diagram is one I drew for somebody else but if you substitute your "Block Terminal Connector" for the one marked "External BT Junction Box" in my diagram you should end up with the most reliable solution with the least changes to the wiring. Incidentally if the house has a lot of redundant wiring it would be an excellent idea to remove it.
I hope I've managed to keep the English simple !
Kind regards,
walter
[attachment deleted by admin]
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there are also other extensions in the house that don't have anything plugged into them (no filters or telephony equipment):-
Corridor - Master socket...old BT style, I will check tonight to see what type it is and will let you know.
Kitchen - unused socket
Outside office - 2 totally unused sockets.
So in addition to these unused extensions how many in total have got and where are they, because this number of extensions fed from one main linebox could affect broadband performance if the wiring to all is not 100%.
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oranged
In total, I think that there are 7 extension sockets all fed thorugh each other as well as the BT RedCare alarm box box that I mentioned earlier - in other words, the wiring is a complete mess!!!
I now don't really want to go round ripping up carpets and so on....the 7 in total are all of the ones as I mentioned...the 3 that are connected and filtered, the Sky one (unused (not plugged in, not filtered) and the other 3 that are completely unused.
The wiring to all, I'm sure, is not 100% - can I bypass the wiring in any way possible, or at least, get my BT engineer friend to see what he can come up with?
walter - I will see if I can get my BT engineer friend to try thing out using your diagram with the least changes to the wiring.
Please feel free to add any more suggestions.
Thanks again - much appreciated.
Regards
happy37
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With a Redcare connection.....I presume this is live and being used.....then you really need a BT-type engineer to look at the whole cabling system and decide if any changes are necessary.
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Oranged
It's not a RedCare connection (to an alarm as such)....it's just the empty box being used to hold the cables in place, yet, maybe you're right, I really should get someone from BT to look at all of it, cue, hopefully, where I can get my mate to have a look at in due cousre.
Should I leave it until the 10 day stabilisation period is over?
Thanks again.
Regards
-
Should I leave it until the 10 day stabilisation period is over?
Personally I would wait, check the performance after the 10 day period then make a decision about the cabling system.
Remember, If it ain't broke, don't start trying to mend it
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Oranged
Thanks again...will wait and see till the end of the 10 day period.
Once it's over, will review my options regarding the cabling and so on.
Will keep you all posted ;) :)
Thanks everyone for all your help so far - very much appreciated.
Regards
happy37
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Hello everyone
Am back again as I think that I've got a problem already, unless someone else says so!!!:-
I am no expert yet at all of this, but I think that I've already got the dreaded stuck BRAS profile? ??? :-\
I did the BT speedtest at 6pm...the result was:-
IP Profile = 2000kbps
I am synced at 3284kbps.
Result/throughput was 1784kbps.
Please advise urgently as to how I can cure this:-
Do I reboot now or in the morning, and I have talked to Virgin and they said that this result is/was good for my line, and 2 Meg is all that I can expect from my line??? Any other thoughts?
Thanks!!! - all advice appreciated.
Regards
happy37
PS - new test result taken at 21.10pm tonight...pic attached.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Hi (un)happy37,
You can try telling Virgin but I suspect they will just tell you to wait for the 10 day period.
Rebooting is unlikely to achieve anything but is also unlikely to do much harm.
I realise this contradicts the advice by others but in my opinion it would be well worth sorting the phone wiring out immediately as discussed earlier in the hope that there will be some improvement in time for the logic to adjust your performance.
Good luck,
walter
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walter
Thanks for your reply - two points:-
1. I will reboot early in the morning, yet should I move the PC and router and connect to the Master socket in the morning and continue monitoring from there instead?
2. Should I get my wiring looked at even though the 10 day period is still ongoing...if yes, will this affect things or not?
Please advise...thanks!!!
happy37
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Hi again,
I would move the router now to the master socket, which will cause a reboot when you reconnect.
Either moving the PC or geting hold of some home plugs (or just a long temporary ethernet cable) could follow in the morning.
If your BT friend is available over the week end I'd suggest that also.
I must point out that this is my best endeavour solution but there are so many variables still that there's no guarantee this method is going to improve matters.
Kind regards,
Walter
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walter
If I left things as they are for now and let things pan out for the 10 days or so, and then change things round during a quiet period (when I'm off from work, for example)...I will ask my BT mate to come round and have a look at things for me.
If he then changes the wiring layout for me, will things get better after this is done, even though the 10 day period will be over and long gone?
Please advise.
Thanks again.
Regards
-
Happy37,
A rate adaptive solution is supposed to continuously monitor and adjust parameters to fit the line conditions so you could wait.
However:-
1. You've heard from another contributor that he made a number of rapid changes and says he's still at a lower speed.
2. There is little doubt that wiring improvements are possible and almost certainly wouldn't make matters worse.
For the above reasons I suggest immediate action is preferable if possible, but if not, I expect you can live with the speeds you've reported.
You'll realise that you are performing better than many I'm dealing with.
It is however your decision !
Kind regards,
Walter
-
Hi
quote "IP Profile = 2000kbps
I am synced at 3284kbps.
Result/throughput was 1784kbps.
Please advise urgently as to how I can cure this:-
Do I reboot now or in the morning, and I have talked to Virgin and they said that this result is/was good for my line, and 2 Meg is all that I can expect from my line??? Any other thoughts? "
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------
I would have thought that your profile should be at least 2500. BUT until you 10 days are up you will not get any help from ISP. As for them saying your line only supports 2MEG that is just them covering up and hoping you go away.
regards Jeff
edit
I would take the advice given by Kitz to leave well alone until the training period is over .
Then I would look at all the stats and work out the appropriate action .No doubt help would be available from this forum :)
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walter, jeffbb and others
Here goes the latest:-
I shut everything down...moved the PC, router etc... next to the master socket, plugged everything inand rebooted.
I am writing this from next to the master socket in the main hallway...my stats now are:-
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3360 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 55 db 15.5 db
Noise Margin 6 db 21 db
So, what do you all think now? - leave things as they are plugged in for the rest of the 10 day period and continue to monitor???
Shall wait and see until things finish and pan out, then will decide whether to get the wiring checked and so on.....
Please comment.....
Thanks again...
Regards
happy37
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leave things as they are plugged in for the rest of the 10 day period and continue to monitor???
Spot on. ;D
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>> So, what do you all think now? - leave things as they are plugged in for the rest of the 10 day period and continue to monitor???
Looking ok - all be it a little slower than the average max, but not that far out.
This could be due to the wiring layout, or it could well be because of 'an evening sync'
I'd leave it connected for now - the main thing is I want to see if it will hold that speed and if its stable. Ideally I want to make sure that sync speed doesnt change for at least a day.
However, If your friend is only available to come and look at it say at the weekend then thats fine.
But make sure you Power the router down first. Unplug it from the main and make sure you dont plug it in again or its switched back on until after he's done everything. I really dont want it resyncing too many times in one day during the training period.
Bit concerned about the 'stuck profile'... although saying that - your sync speed isnt one of those that normally gets stuck for long.. and more of the type that clears in a few days ... so fingers crossed it will soon catch up.
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kitz
Good morning - thanks for your reply.....
Am now going to leave all well alone and connected.
Current stats:- (6am)
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3392 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 55 db 15.5 db
Noise Margin 2 db 21 db
Comparing to late last night, what do you think?
I will let my BT mate know that I have moved everything downstairs to the test socket, and he'll come and look in due course.
I'd leave it connected for now - the main thing is I want to see if it will hold that speed and if its stable. Ideally I want to make sure that sync speed doesnt change for at least a day.
Will see how it goes during the day...will post more stats later in the day/evening.....
Please comment - thanks again...much appreciated.
Regards
happy37
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Hi all
Latest BT Speedtester result taken at 08.35am:-
Test1 comprises of Best Effort Test: -provides background information.
Your DSL connection rate: 3456 kbps(DOWN-STREAM), 448 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is - 2500 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was - 2362 kbps
Things are getting better, are they not?
Thanks...regards
happy37
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Hi Happy37,
Your 2dB downstream noise margin @ 06:00 is rather low compared to 6 dB yesterday and suggests the wiring changes could help.
(Was there anything special electrical going on this morning ?)
It's interesting that at 08:35 the sync rate has increased since 06:00. Your bRAS of 2,500 is probably about right for your line conditions.
It's wise to leave well alone now until your wireman is available.
Kind regards,
Walter
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walter
Thanks for your reply - will leave things alone as they are for now(am monitroing via Routerstats as we speak)
Will post back if things change or get better - hopefully.....
Thanks again.
Regards
happy37
-
@ 6am
>> Connection Speed 3392 kbps 448 kbps
@ 8:40 am
> Your DSL connection rate: 3456 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
Why the change in sync speed? Is this anything youve done? (although I do notice the SNRM was low at 6am)
-
@ 6am
>> Connection Speed 3392 kbps 448 kbps
@ 8:40 am
> Your DSL connection rate: 3456 kbps(DOWN-STREAM)
Why the change in sync speed? Is this anything youve done? (although I do notice the SNRM was low at 6am)
Kitz
Thanks for your reply - in case you missed it, am now plugged into the Master socket...what do you think?
Regards
-
sorry did miss that :-[
- as mentioned your sync speeds are about average - to good for your line length.
There may be a bit more but atm things are looking fine so I would leave things now to see how it goes over the training phase.
-
kitz
sorry did miss that :-[
No harm done!!! ;) - will see how things go from here.....is it worth a reboot in the morning, or shall I leave things all alone and continue to monitor???
Thanks and regards
happy37
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Now that your able to plug in the test socket of the nte and see a difference in results the next thing to try is reconnect the face plate with the internal wiring but before you do, note which wires are connected to the no.3 idc which is the bell wire and disconnect them
(typicaly its the orange wire with white rings but not always wired up as such hence take a note/photo of whats connected before disconnecting them)
Then with the bell wires disconnected see what result you get. if it goes back to the poorer result then the problem is part/all of the internal wiring so its eitehr palying with the internal wiring or fitting a full adsl face plate so your extention wiring will work ok for normal telephony but the nte will be the only place where you pick up a dsl signal.
If the result is still the better result then the issue is caused by the bell wiring, in which case you have 2 options.
1 leave the bell wires dissconected, in order for your phones to ring on an incomming call then they will need to be connected via a microfilter (some phones can ring without bell wire/microfilter)
2 fit either an I plate or as you know a bt engineer get the up to date front plate which comes with the nte's with the Openreach logo as this has a suppressor which sorts the inteference with the bell wire for dsl yet all the internal wiring still behaves as normal for voice telephony.
I take it from your comments the term redcare was just used to describe the style of junction box and not actualy a redcare marked box. Red care is hard wired to the back of the nte if one is fitted so the end user can remove the face plate off the nte without setting the alarm off and getting a little visit :police: :police: If any one does have a box marked redcare then don;t touch the cable that feed in/out of the redcare box as you'll need either the alarm people or a bt engineer to deactivate the "chirps" before hand.
I remember last year trying to sort what was what after and end user cut away a load of wiring thinking it was defunct only to loose a load of their phone lines. "This ones a redcare!" "But we havn't got red care" " this ones definately a red care" "Ahh thats why the police keep turning up." ???
Walter, good to note on your diagram you pointed out the use of a full adsl face plate on the nte as the extention wiring was using the spare wires back down the same lead-in cable which feeds the nte. eay point to miss but if wired with a normal face plate then having the dsl signal comming back within the same cable can cause "Relfections" so causing problems on the error count and snr.
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Ezzer
Thanks for your comments - do u think that an I-PLate will help in my case or not? (lots of phone extensions?)
Otherwise, the bell wire cable(s) have alrady been snipped out of 1 BT box that I found it in, and all the others only had wires connected to numbers 2 and 5 and nothing else.
Barring the fact that I don't know want to mess about at all with all of the wiring that's already in place, what's the best way to get the best signal?
1. An I-Plate?
2. Which NTE-5 socket will help - and if we get one fitted ( as it's an LJU Master type socket that is there, not an NTE that's for sure), can we plug the router into the Master socket and then run a phone or CAT5 or 6 cable to the router which will originally be in my room upstairs? Will the signal be as good in this manner as opposed to plugging into the master socket directly?
3. Any other method that you think will be best - apologies for all of these different suggestions, yet moving from a fixed package to a Max one is totally new to me, yet I think that I'm learning fast from all of the excellent help, tips and advice that I've had so far on here in the last couple of days, so please bear with me.
Thanks again - please advise and do all keep up the excellent work...much appreciated.
Regards
happy37
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If the bell wires have been disconnected with no improvement then the I-plate will make no difference.
I would say ask your bt friend to replace the lju master socket with an nte5 as this allows diagnostics to be done so much more easly and gives you the option of fitting a full dsl face plate so the internal wiring is no longer an issue from the point of view of dsl (he might have this face plate or get one off a dsl colleague :-X)
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Ezzer
Thanks again - If I get the NTE-5 fitted with a full dsl face plate, and still continue to use my normal upstairs room extension with a microfilter, will this work OK without upsetting the telephony side of things ( as well as not having to mess about at all with the internal wiring I hope???)
Also, the line seems to have re-synced:-
Please check the latest stats and pic:-
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3648 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 56 db 15.5 db
Noise Margin 6 db 21 db
More comments welcome...
Thanks and regards
[attachment deleted by admin]
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The full dsl face plate for the nte is like a fancy over blown microfilter. It seperates the dsl completely fron all your internal wiring so all your extentions still work ok as thay have before for normal voice telephony and you no longer need microfolters every where.
But this plate means the only place you get a dsl signal is at the master socket.
To get connection to a pc elsewere in to the house your options with this plate would be.
1 a data extention kit. I havn't seen these listed on sale any where although openreach dsl engineers carry them in 5,10 and 30m kits. one end plugs into the dsl output on the face plate and the cable is cleated up to where your router is and a dedicated socket fitted at the other end so your dsl lead from your router can plug straight in. The cable is similar to normal 6 wire telephony cable but it has extra twists on each pair of wires to reduce the possiblity of pick up from other data sources.
2 a long dsl lead (the one between your router an current microfilter) which can reach from the nte to where your router is.
3 plug the router in by the nte and use a wireless facility to get the signal from the router to your pc.
4 again plug the router in the nte and use a long ethernet cable to go from the router to the pc.
If you can option 3 is usualy the most practical. options 1&2 might be suseptible to any localised noise issues. before going to the trouble of properly fitting a data extention kit. I try it loose to make sure the dsl signal is still ok where the router is required. and 30m may sound a lot but once a cable is fitted correctly aroung skirting boards,door frames etc it's quickly used up. I've easly used 80m of internal cable for the fitting of one extention. (the data extention kit has an internal grade cable and is not suitable for extreior use.
Option4 is a compromise between 1&2 and option3. once the router has a good dsl signal. noise issues along the ethernet cable is unlikely although still possible. but it has the polava of trying to fit the cable. this is the difficult time consuming bit of internal wiring, connecting at the socket is easy. securing the cable ???
(with data extention kits and ethernet cables avoid using staples. first you need the right type of staple gun otherwise your guaranteed to put a staple through the cable at some point , easly done with a bt type gun. also the staples can squeeze down on the cable causing a noise pickup point on the cable at each spot where a staple has been fitted. I'm fortunate I can set mine so it stops short of this. I got to admit I personaly always go for staples first if i can because its neater and quicker and if done right the cable blends into the wood work. although I regeted this once. i did a lovely job if fitting an extention and was quite proud of it. In the kitchen plugged my phone in to test it " This number is defined a.........." A chippy and his apprentice were working in the property and had just sawn through the skirting board in the hall way straight though the cable i'd just put in as they though it was part of the skiting >:(
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Hi Ezzer,
I've used home plugs quite successfully which also have the benefit of connecting up to three PCs or any number via routers.
They are an excellent tool to test if using the mastersocket direct will improve performance.
However they aren't cheap at between GBP 50 to 60 per pair. One such supplier is:-
http://www.solwise.co.uk/net-powerline-pl-85pe.htm
Longer RJ11 faceplate / filter to modem cables are available e.g. at:-
http://www.adslnation.com/phpapps/catalog/index.php?cPath=21
Kind regards,
Walter
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Thanks Walter, I always keep forgetting about the over mains connection method. probably as I don't often see them around. as you say there is a price to shell out initally but from what I can see it's gives you the hand option of using something thats already extensively fitted around the house, namely the electrical network so gets around thw arkward and sometimes unsightly attaching new internal wiring. and the convenience of plugging into any handy power socket.
Just had a thought in that it's handy for people in short, mid term, rented accomodation as thay can take this all with them to the next home.
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Ezzer and walter
Thanks for your replies...I have been talkng to another gentleman that works at BT and I asked him about getting hold of the NTE-5 and a full dsl face plate?
He said that this will be OK - I also asked whether it will be possible for a phone extension cable to be routed from the Master NTE5/NTE 2005 as he said...to the PC upstairs and then I could plug the router into that? Is he correct?
1. Will this option be OK? - apart from that, if we go down this route, will microfilters still have to be used everywhere else in the house or not?
2. At the end of the cable that is routed upstairs to the PC/router, can an ordinary BT socket be used, or does it have to be one of the ADSL Nation XTF-68 OR XTF-85 sockets?
Please advise regarding using this method.....thanks again, much appreciated.
Regards
happy37
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Hi happy37,
Given your history there are strong reasons for keeping the modem connected directly to an integral filter faceplate on your NTE5 master socket.
As discussed elsewhere on this forum the broadband signal you recieve is microscopic and can so easily get noise injected into it. As Ezzer has also suggested it's much better to run an Ethernet cable from your modem up to the PC, or use the home plug solution to do the same.
You can use wireless but I'd rather avoid those complications. You can also use a long RJ 11 cable as Ezzer has described but again it's weakening the signal.
When you use an integral filter faceplate all the filtering is done there so you don't have to put any other filters around the house.
I hope this helps.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Walter
Thanks again...points noted accordingly...however, is it not possible to run a hardwired phone cable connected from the LJU Master as we have at the moment in the hallway and then site the integral filter faceplate and new NTE 5 Master socket where it would be more conveniently located near the router (in the same room, for example?)
Once and if this can be done, can't we install the NTE 5/integral filter socket there and plug the router into that?
If not, then I think the “Ethernet cable from your modem up to the PC” looks more favourable for me to get my BT mate to put into place.
Please advise...thanks again and regards
happy37
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Hi happy37,
Provided you follow the wiring architecture we have specified you can do anything you like.
However, if you are looking to obtain the best possible modem performance, the best "defensive engineering" solution is to put the modem as close as you can to where the phone line enters the house, using the filtered master NTE5 socket. If you really want to keep all the kit upstairs then perhaps a solution would be to re-wire the external house line directly into the room you want with the filtered master socket there. Then connect the phone part of the filtered master socket into the nearest existing phone socket.
The problem seems to be that nobody has yet any real idea of where your horrible maze of wires go and how many wires are connected and how many are actually redundant. Adding even more cables to this mess certainly won't improve matters ! It would be a very good idea to make a circuit diagram of all your phone wiring which, although time-consuming, is not as difficult as it sounds. Your BT friends will have a tone generator and a tone tracer (sniffer) device so you can separate a section of the wiring and inject the tone; you then crawl around the house onserving which sockets and cables have the tone on them.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Walter
Forgot to add that there is also a 2nd PC that I want to connect to the router...I forgot all about that!!!!! ???
Willb speak to my mate at length as to what the best solution is or might be in my case....will keep yuo all posted.
Thanls again.
Regards
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Hi happy37,
I hope you have now realised that it's important to specify precisely what your total system requirements are as, after letting us know later of your (unused) red alert connector box, you now discover that you have two computers. Two computers are an even greater reason to strive for the maximum throughput on your broadband service.
You are also wise to let your BT contractor select the optimum configuration for your situation.
From this distance I suggest re-siting the master socket in your computer room or possibly using homeplugs such as:-
http://www.netgear.com/Products/PowerlineNetworking/PowerlineEthernetAdapters.aspx
are likely to be the best and most reliable options. Note I suggest using the lowest speed devices for their more robust performance (and usually lower cost), as they are all much faster than your broadband connection can ever be.
I think that I have now exhausted my store of advice for your situation !
Kind regards,
Walter
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Walter
Apologies for all of this messing around...I am confused ????? ???
What I will do is to thoroughly talk through my setup with my BT mate before proceeding further.
I will definitely keep you posted.
Thanks for all your helpful posts so far...much appreciated.
Regards
happy37
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hello everyone
A quick update - I spoke to my BT mate earlier today and he is coming round on Friday to sort things out for me (fingers crossed).....will keep you all posted ;)
Regards
happy37
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:)
let us know how it goes
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kitz and others
Will do indeed.
Regards
happy37
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kitz and others
Please can you have a look at the screenshot attached which I have taken tonight from just before 17.40pm to now (19.05pm). What do you think of the downstream SNR, bearing in mind that this does dip to a low level in the evenings? Is the graph as per normal in your opinion(s)? - what does it indicate to you all?
Also, my current stats are:-
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 2560 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 55 db 15.5 db
Noise Margin 12 db 22 db
Will the sync/connection speed change/improve, bearing in mind that the WAN/LAN's uptime is or has been:-
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 33589 42647 0 63 684 14:02:04
LAN 10M/100M 51659 42058 0 780 93 14:02:41
WLAN 11M/54M 0 0 0 0 0 00:00:00
Should I reboot the router tonight to get a better sync speed, or tomorrow AM, or even leave things alone to take their course?
Look forward to your helpful responses.
Thanks again.
Regards
happy37
PS - Am still connected to the master socket and have not changed the setup in any way at all...
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Hi Happy37,
I would leave well alone, assuming you've not yet discussed / implemented your wiring changes?
Remember no star wiring and straight off the Master Socket integral filter faceplate.
Given your descriptions of your possible wiring birds nest, there seems little point in spending much effort beforehand.
If you must play then perhaps you should do a BT Speed test as described here, recording all the figures provided:-
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/btwspeedtest.htm
and then another from say the TBB site just as second check:-
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest.html
These are the achieved data throughput speeds and might elicit comments from Kitz et al.
Andrew Ferguson's estimator suggests that your sync speed might go as high as 3275 kbps for your reported line attenuation and noise margin as ilustrated below, but probably only when you've optimised the wiring. See :-
http://www2.farina1.com/adsl/default.aspx
Kind regards,
Walter
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Walter
Thanks for your reply - the wiring changs wiill be put in place on Friday evening this week.
Otherwise, you've convinced me to leave things well alone.....thanks again, will definitely keep you posted on progress. :)
Regards
happy37
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Hello everyone...
I am back with an update to my situation:-
My mate from BT came round as I said on Saturday last week and had a look at the wiring in my house.
What he has done is this:-
He replaced the alarm cable that was coming into the house into the little RF box with BT cable, and then he rewired the LJU Master socket in the hallway to be an extension socket. He then replaced my socket in my room next to the router with a new Openreach branded NTE-5 Master socket so that I could have the best possible connection to the PC/router.
PS - I have also had an I-Plate sent through yesterday by Virgin Media to see if that helps, but I don't think it has as the sync speed has not changed at all. Shall I leave it plugged into the socket, or should I take it out?
Here are my current stats:- (bearing in mind that I switched everything off last night and have plugged it all in again this morning)
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 2176 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 54 db 15.5 db
Noise Margin 12 db 22 db
I have also just done a speedtest via the BT Speedtester site and the results are in the attached pic.
So, what do you all think now?
Is this the best for my line? - I still think that I can get more out of it, yet the fact that the sync speed shows 2176 up to 23**kbps from the last few days suggests to me that, either this is the max for my line, or that things could go better, but are things stuck with regards to my BRAS profile, or is it too early to tell at the moment?
I will be monitoring this over the next few days to see how it goes - any comments, thoughts and suggestions will be greatly appreciated. Many thanks for all of your help so far with this, it's very much appreciated and I have learnt a lot more about ADSL and its caveats that I didn't know before :)
Look forward to all responses - I am also monitoring the downstream SNR margin using Routerstats 4.7g and it's on a constant 12 at the moment, so, if need be, I will post back pics later.
Regards
happy37
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If I understand you correctly, the socket in the hall is directly connected to the incoming telephone pair, and a directly wired connection goes from there to the NTE5 in your room. That's not ideal unless the socket in the hall is unused, in which case it's just acting as a junction box. If it's used for a telephone then make sure that a good quality filter is used there.
Are there any other extensions connected to the faceplate of the new NTE5? If not, then the i-plate will make no difference at all - it only filters the ring wire of extensions connected to it.
Your current stats are not brilliant, but as your target noise margin seems to be 12 dB you probably won't get much more out of it unless the target can be reduced. I would let it settle for a few days and see how it goes.
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If I understand you correctly, the socket in the hall is directly connected to the incoming telephone pair, and a directly wired connection goes from there to the NTE5 in your room. That's not ideal unless the socket in the hall is unused, in which case it's just acting as a junction box. If it's used for a telephone then make sure that a good quality filter is used there.
Eric
You got it right - this socket is unused, there is nothing attached to it.
There aren't any other extensions attached to the new NTE-5 Master socket. I have just been speaking to Virgin tech support and the guy that I spoke to changed the MTU setting in the router to 1400. I have since rebooted and the sync speed has gone up a bit more to 2272kbps instead of 2176kbps.
I will let this settle for a few days to see how it goes - anything else that I can get done to improve things, please?
Can I get the ISP to lower may noise margin any more, and what should I get this lowered to, please?
Anything else that you can suggest as well, please?
Thanks again - much appreciated.
Regards
happy37
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Hi Happy37,
I think I remember from a few pages back that you said there were old office extensions outside somewhere.
Are you and the BT guy absolutely sure you have disconnected ALL redundant cabling fed from both the internal house wiring and the incoming drop wire ?
Kind regards,
Walter
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Hi Walter
Thanks for your reply - yes, indeed, these were actually newly wired by the same BT man, but these have now been diconnected as they are not being used at all.
Any other thoughts?
Thanks again.
Regards
happy37
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Hi happy,
> the guy that I spoke to changed the MTU setting in the router to 1400
This was unfortunately an ISP tech support person talking gibberish to impress or dismiss. The MTU thing is completely irrelevant to your issue, and the sync rate simply changed because of DLM or because of changes in line conditions and it changed because it had an opportunity to do so when your rebooted or disconnected/reconnected the router.
Unless there's something odd about Virgin (AOL being cited as "odd") the MTU size thing will make your connection's true user data throughput slightly slower on sizeable downloads but your router won't show you this, you'd have to measure it with software as file size/time. Sometimes a reduction of MTU can fix specific problems but unless there's evidence of a specific problem, or you have a weird ISP, then the right value if you're using PPPoA should always be 1478 to optimize performance, or if that can't be used 1430. Possibly a low value might be needed for a VPN, or to fix a problem with some particular server you're communicating with that is on a funny network, or again for a weird ISP, but otherwise for PPPoA choosing the optimum of 1478 gives a slight improvement in throughput of the order of 1%, but the second choice of 1430 is hardly much inferior. Netgear routers seem to come with a default of 1458 even if using PPPoA, which seems to me to be the worst choice possible, and IMHO 1500 is a bad choice too. (Those with more expertise please do feel free to differ.)
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I'm worried by that 12dB margin as most people in my neigbourhood have a similar attenuation, but those that have allowed me to take a peek sit happily on 9dB. It may be the case that 12dB is just the right figure for your line, but its also possible that it's been caused by excessive reconnections as a result of all these changes you've made. If that's the case, there's a possibility it will raise again by another 3dB to 15 if you keep on experimenting. And there's absolutely no guarantee that your ISP will ever be able to get it reduced, even if they try.
Others may disagree but I fear that with such a tiny DSL signal, there's no magic formula to follow as the slightest spurious things can have an effect. Sometimes, things that in theory ought to help a little, actually make things a little worse. And vice versa. Those of us old enough to remember 1960s VHF TV broadcasts may recall how, no matter how much effort you put into locating the aerial, the only way to get ITV might be to persuade your grandmother to stand just behind the TV with an empty teapot in her hand. DSL's not going to be quite that sensitive, but comparisons do exist.
In my own case, I live with a dreadful rat's nest of wiring with 8 unused extensions, some star wired, because I know from trial and error that disconnecting it all made no measurable difference (though I do emphasise that'll be extremely unusual). And, without trying to make you too jealous, my attenuation is same as your - 55dB, but I reconnected this morning at 4448kbps with 9dB margin. My closest neihgbour also reports 55dB attenuation but has no extension wiring at all, yet despite several efforts from me to improve things, he rarely does better than 2000 and 9dB margin. You're getting >2000 with 12dB margin, which puts you somewhere beteen the two.
You've obviously put a lot of energy into optimising things, and I'm thinking maybe you need to think about 'quiting whilst ahead', at least for a few weeks, in case your noise margin suddenly jumps to 15dB which would lose you quite a bit of speed. Or do you actually have any plans for specific applications for which your current speeds won't be adequate?
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I agree and would have thought that unless your SNR is incredibly variable through the day (which you can check), or your router is rubbish (could need a firmware update or simply a different router model), that 12dB is likely too be a bit high and if it could be reduced then that would be the way to go.
As sevenlayermuddle points out
> its also possible that it's been caused by excessive reconnections as a result of all these changes you've made.
which is extremely likely, as I myself have got viciously punished in this way and it's a situation that is pretty hard to get out of. Don't make to many reboots/changes/unpluggings in one day or in one hour (or something?).
> If that's the case, there's a possibility it will raise again by another 3dB to 15 if you keep on experimenting. And there's absolutely no guarantee that your ISP will ever be able to get it reduced, even if they try.
Agreed. It may drift back down on its own, slowly, as long as you leave things alone for a long while which may or may not mean a couple of days or couple of weeks (others on this site might have a better idea about the timescales) and may or may not require continuous uptime.
> You've obviously put a lot of energy into optimising things, and I'm thinking maybe you need to think about 'quiting whilst ahead', at least for a few weeks, in case your noise margin suddenly jumps to 15dB which would lose you quite a bit of speed.
I think that's very good advice. Maybe do absolutely nothing for a week or two (and try and make sure the router doesn't get disrupted by an power outage, so consider using a UPS if the mains is dodgy [but filter the output]). Check that your phone isn't making the SNR drop wildly when you make a call.
I certainly don't agree with sevenlayermuddle that you need to quit whist ahead, in the sense that you've got nowhere else to go, just maybe insert a delay to let DLM become sane again. I've made some significant progress with fighting mains noise, anti-RFI, no wireless routers, mains filtering, ferrites everywhere, shielded phoneline cable for phones, no extensions, faceplate microfilters battle for the crown, short unshielded twisted pair for router-to-wallsocket, and comparing router models and updating firmware releases. As sevenlayermuddle points out, at that attenuation it is in some circumstance possible to get way higher performance if a war on noise sources is waged and the right router+ufilter choices are made.
The Alcatel/Thomson speedtouch is always worth a look and the Netgear DG834v3 and poss v1 (not DG834G/GT anything else as we don't want wireless entering the equation) are musts, but only with very very latest firmware, and possibly DG834v4 worth checking out.
To put things in perspective my favourite line is showing 61 db [!!] downstream attenuation (or 59 or 63.5 depending on which router you ask) and today's SNR is ~12dB±1dB this afternoon, although the sun has now set and its raining, and this figure will droop slightly. But at this SNR margin on a line 7dB worse than yours I get a sync rate of 1858, or 1984 with a ~11dB snr and last november had a four day period of sync at 2272 with 6dB SNR margin before I ruined things by too much testing in one hour or in one day. My sync rate seems to be slowly creeping back up, but this after vicious shouting at an ISP who seemed completely bewildered by IPStream Max and the whole world of wonders that is BT Wholesale/Openreach, and which may have unstuck things.
So there is hope, some of us survive on half the signal voltage you enjoy! :-)
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Agreed. It may drift back down on its own, slowly, as long as you leave things alone for a long while which may or may not mean a couple of days or couple of weeks (others on this site might have a better idea about the timescales) and may or may not require continuous uptime.
Rumours vary. I've seen at least one convincing report that continuos sync is not necessary, though I'll bet it does no harm. As for timescale, I suspect you'd be thinking in terms of months, maybe many months, maybe even never. Really, it is worth being afraid of.
I certainly don't agree with sevenlayermuddle that you need to quit whist ahead, in the sense that you've got nowhere else to go
I protest, you can't be disagreeing with me because I insist on agreeing with you... :)
I think it may well be possible to get more out if Happy37's line. But unless there's an actual need for the extra speed, and if DLM already has the line under scrutiny, well - maybe I'd be tempted not to rock the boat any more, at least for a few weeks. That's all I meant.
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SLM and Weaver
Many thanks for your very interesting points of view - I will digest what you have mentioned and will come back to go through what you've said in due course.
Having said that, where do you both live? - in case you want to have a look at things further for me, if you live anywhere near Bromley, Kent, then either of you might be able to help me further.
Also, I don't know about both of you, yet I keep on hearing about Virgin Media's “upgrade” to SMPF/ADSL 2+, which I am supposed to be getting, or not as the case may be. Are either of you with Virgin?
Otherwise, I will pop back later with my thougts on both of your replies and any further queries.
Thanks again, it's much appreciated.
Rgds
happy37
PS - what about looking at things on my PC remotely via broadband and Remote Desktop, or something similar?
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hi happy
Ref MTU have a look at this it might help .
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/tweak2.htm
regards Jeff
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Having said that, where do you both live? - in case you want to have a look at things further for me, if you live anywhere near Bromley, Kent, then either of you might be able to help me further.
I livea good 100 miles from you, so I'm off the hook. To be honest though, even if I were the best person to help (I'm not) and even if you were my nearest neighbour, you'd have to bribe me with an awful lot of beer as I know from experience how easy it is to suddenly reallise how many hours have gone by on this kind of thing. It's such good fun, you see, as you're finding out.
My ISP's demon. There were once very good, though I don't particularly recommend them these days. BTW - with demon, traffic other than port 80 (web browsing) seems to get throttled back to about 200kbps during daytimes which, once again, calls into question whether all my efforts to get from 2000kbps to 4000kbps were time well spent. :)
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SLM and Weaver
So, what do you both suggest that I do now, and in what order?
Regards
happy37
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hi happy
Ref MTU have a look at this it might help .
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/tweak2.htm
regards Jeff
With the very greatest of respect for both kitz and Jeff and all the other commentators who've put a lot of research into this, I'd strongly recommend being extremely skeptical about the figures quoted in that article. Note that kitz in the article gives a link to a second article on MTU problems first, which contains good advice, but unless you have evidence of a problem, leave well alone or come back and ask before tweaking.
Some of the contributors may have strange ISPs or different operating systems to yours. Testing is notoriously difficult IMO unless you're doing so over a network that you can control, and without checking that you can saturate your connection (see kitz articles on IP Profile which limits data rates to be permanently sub-optimal for many) I would urge you not to tweak or follow the detailed recommendations.
kitz has written about pathological cases where black hole routers and firewalling of ICMP cause problems, and the point here is to decide whether you've got some bad _reliability_ problem, or not, and if not then forget about MTU. If you have got a horrid case of networking evil such as kitz has diagnosed for other sufferers, then you need a new router or ISP or operating system or all three, not a tweak IMHO.
If you were to want to try some performance testing, say restrict testing to the bt wholesale speedtester, then at least you would have a controlled environment, but otherwise I believe that you would find it very difficult to get a repeatable setup or conclusions that could be generalised reliably.
Again, unless you have a specific problem, such as being with a weird ISP such as AOL or you encounter a weird webserver, the basic mathematics of protocol overhead with PPPoA mean that MTU=1478 is the most efficient use of ATM unless I'm very badly mistaken with my mental arithmetic (but please do feel free to correct me, those with more experience of PPPoA) and 1430 the second best choice in odd case, with some special tunnelling setups that I can imagine. Outside of PPPoA or in LLU-land there might be some cases I've not heard of.
I've read comments of "1458 works", which are vague and extremely unsurprising. We expect any choice of 1500 or some lower figure to "work" unless there are some very special circumstances. And performance measurements are going to be very dangerously misleading. My suggestion is simply the one that is bound to be most economical assuming the common conditions mentioned by minimising protocol overhead and that's all, just a performance tweak that is very small. Excel tells me that mtu=1500 is 1.67% worse than mtu=1478, 1430 is only 0.12% worse, whereas mtu=1458 is 1.41% worse than 1478, 1400 is 2.3% worse and 1390 is 3.08% worse while other figures you hear bandied around are worse still.
Far far more important is actually having path mtu discovery that works, and other issues such as having a modern o/s (for example Vista tramples on WinXp in this respect) are what really counts. Newer technologies like the auto-tuning receive window scaling in Vista, support for ECN, the new ctcp congestion control algorithm that is present in Vista but is not turned on by default but should be (default=ctcp in MS server 2008) and algorithmic improvements in general are what count. Note that in Vista such tweaking actually does nothing and is ignored as tuning is automatic so you would be wasting your time. I believe Mac OSX offers similar high performance TCP features. So pick a modern o/s, is my top tip.
Furthe reading :
winxp and SP3 - http://adilhindistan.blogspot.com/2007/10/path-maximum-transmission-unit-pmtu.html
Vista advances http://blogs.msdn.com/wndp/archive/2006/05/05/Winhec-blog-tcpip-2.aspx
Mac OS X http://www.apple.com/macosx/technology/unix.html
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> Having said that, where do you both live? - in case you want to have a look at things further for me, if you live anywhere near Bromley, Kent, then either of you might be able to help me further.
:-) According to multimap.co.uk - I'm 621 miles away from you, definitely not quite as far away as I could be, but easier to reach by Remote Assistance than by car or plane.
> PS - what about looking at things on my PC remotely via broadband and Remote Desktop, or something similar?
If you want to follow that up, PM me. But I'm a professional consultant and charge a lot unfortunately, so best to get a few freebies out of me, kitz et al and those who've seen more horrors than I have. :-) And today's my day off! :=)
I'd want to review things and re-read the earlier posts first as I and notorious for skimming through things carelessly.
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I disagree with sevenlayermuddle that I'm disagreeing with her/him. :-) Oh, ...
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> you'd be thinking in terms of months, maybe many months, maybe even never. Really, it is worth being afraid of.
my experience is of (a) days, or (b) very small number of weeks per 3dB or (c) infinity as you might need a kick delivered to BTW.
And absolutely, it is a bad thing and one to be feared. So good to let things cool for a while.
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I'd seriously recommend also re-reading the first couple of kitz' posts in this thread as a recap, especially as there's been a lot of water under the bridge.
As for ADSL2+ this would be for Virgin LLU customers would it not?
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SLM and Weaver
So, what do you both suggest that I do now, and in what order?
Regards
happy37
SLM and Weaver
So, what do you both suggest that I do now, and in what order?
If I were in you shoes, my inclination would be to sit back and do nothing but enjoy and indulge in your existing high-speed broadband for a few weeks or longer to let the dust settle on DLM, and meanwhile decide for yourself whether it already meets all of your needs, or whether there's any actual need to try and get more out of it.
Then again, if you do decide to carry any tweaking the line in the hope of improving DSL characteristics then I can't blame you as I perfectly understand the temptation to do so. I'm afraid I personally can't really offer any further guidance on it, other than to live in fear of getting another increase to your target margin. I stand by my assertion that it can many months to get reduced, and sometimes it may never get reduced, but nobody knows for sure as BTw seem to keep the algoritm a closely guarded secret. But that apart, there's seems to be no shortage of contributors on this thread so I don't think you're goint to run out of advice. :) :) :)
I've not mentioned MTU tweaking as it won't affect your connection characteristics (SNR, attenuation and connection speed), which is all I've tried to comment on. MTU tweaking is a whole new ball game that I've never explored, so I'm not volunteering any advice at all I'm afraid.
Best,
SLM
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As for ADSL2+ this would be for Virgin LLU customers would it not?
Yes, you are indeed quite right, it is.
I have also sent you a PM.
Rgds
happy37
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SLM
Then again, if you do decide to carry any tweaking the line in the hope of improving DSL characteristics then I can't blame you as I perfectly understand the temptation to do so.
I want to get the best possible speed from my line.
Also...
I am actually hoping for at least 3 to 4 megs from my line, yet, to actually go about getting up to that mark is proving to be quite a bit of a struggle, unless I change ISPs of course, or get a different router?
Which one do you all definitely recommend - I want to use wired, not wireless.
I have a Netgear DG834GSP Virgin supplied model - shall I change to something else that is tweakable with reagrds to SNR and so on?
Can I flash this Netgear DG834GSP Virgin supplied model with better firmware, or is this model “locked” to Virgin only?
I don't really want to flash this Netgear one in case I can't go back to the firmware that's loaded on it, yet I will definitely consider getting a better Netgear router with all of your recommendations!!!
Please advise - all responses welcome.
Rgds
happy37
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Anyone please help???
Will getting another, better router make any difference to my sync speeds and downstream noise margins?
Thanks.
Regards
happy37
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I'm afraid there's no complete way to answer that question. A tweakable router will give you the possibility to change the target noise margin and possibly get a higher connection speed, but this might also destabilise your connection and get the target noise margin raised further. I would echo 7LM's advice and leave it alone for a bit to see how it settles down. If you keep on fiddling with it you will very probably end up with a higher margin and a lower speed.
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Eric
Thanks for that bit of advice...have left it alone for now as I am not tweaking things any further. However, if I do decide to get a better router, which one do you, kitz et al recommend that I could get in due course, please?
Any links so that I can see what it looks like and does will be very helpful.
Regards
happy37
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If I do decide to get a better router, which one do you, kitz et al recommend that I could get in due course, please?
Any links so that I can see what it looks like and does will be very helpful.
Regards
happy37
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> a better router, which one do you, kitz et al recommend that I could get in due course, please?
A Netgear DG834v3 or a Speedtouch are hard to beat IMO on long lines. (The jury is still out on the DG834v4 here.)
I know that some people have had various amounts of pain with the Netgear TI AR7 devices, but since I never have on any of the dozens of ADSL connections I have looked at over different parts of the country it suspect seems to be dependant on ISP (LLU exotics?) or DSLAM mfrs. Up to date firmware is crucial with the DG834v1/v2/v3.
I've tested a couple of dozen DG834v3 and v2 devices long term in different parts of the country. I've used the v4 briefly at two sites and seems very good on a strong line, not tested properly on a bad line. The speedtouch is very admirable, but the configuration of it is a life's work, and I haven't given it proper testing on a horrible line although I hear good things about it.
One other issue that clouds the waters is the posible synergy between chipsets with the DSLAM. Two exchanges near me are TI-based. I'll take a look at a few others further away. It may be though that long-line virtues of the Netgear TI AR7 devices that I've trumpeted are entirely based on sites where there is a TI exchange or where the line is really good or where it's a fixed-rate low profile line as there are (still) quite a few fixed 500kbps-only exchanges around here too (Exchange Activate).
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Thanks again for your reply - I have already mentioned that:-
I have a Netgear DG834GSP Version 3 Virgin supplied model - shall I change to something else that is tweakable with reagrds to SNR and so on?
Can I flash this Netgear DG834GSP Virgin supplied model with better firmware, or is this model “locked” to Virgin only?
I don't really want to flash this Netgear one in case I can't go back to the firmware that's loaded on it, yet I will definitely consider getting a better Netgear router with all of your recommendations!!!
Please advise - all responses welcome.
Rgds
happy37
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Just to keep stirring the mix, a lot of people (me included) find the DG834GT with the DGTeam firmware to be an excellent combination. Other Broadcom-based routers such as the D-Link DSL2740B (with the latest firmware) are also excellent performers, but the downside of many of them is that any tweaking changes only last as long as the next re-boot.
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Eric
Thanks for your reply - I am actually thinking of the Netgear DG834 v4 - what do you think its pros and cons are?
Thanks
happy37
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Hi
I have a Netgear DG834 v4 .I have had it connected for about a month. The only time I have lost connection is when I have shut it down ,I am using routestats to minitor and tweak snr (only seems to tweak 3db off target). Its now been up 5 days .I am NO WAY an expert but it seems ok . My line attenuation is 33db so its not very testing .I don't know wether you have checked your MTU but its easy as per the link I gave you . It may show that 1500 is the optimum if it does'nt then its up to you to decide wether to change or not .Doing that check won 't hurt anything .
Regards Jeff
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I have a couple of DG834v4's and as mentioned earlier have tested one for a week or so on an excellent line (outstanding line unfortunately) so that wasn't much of a test.
I have only tested one very very briefly on a dreadful line, and the results were scary, which actually means nothing other than what it says, that is "I was scared", because the line attenuation it reported was an all time record low for that line and a whole 4-5dB worse than a DG834v1 on the same line. (See earlier thread on topic of differing attenuation figures) But that doesn't mean that it actually _is_ bad, and the jury is very much out on that one.
So I can't recommend a DG834v4 simply because I haven't had enough time to play with one yet.
It may be that a lot depends on modem-DSLAM mfr synergy as I said earlier, and in that case I would be putting the v4 at a possible disadvantage as the v3 would retain its TI-to-TI DSLAM synergy on this exchange. We should perhaps start a thread asking people which DSLAM mfr they have.
Since DG834 models can be had on ebay for a tenner then there's not a lot of risk in just picking one up for test purposes. (Again warning - DO NOT SWAP ROUTERS a lot, not too many times in one hour or in one day [?] nor alternate between days as I'm not sure that is DLM-safe either)
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I'm skimming this post since Ive been very busy and I still have a lot of catch-up to do... but from a quick glance I just wanted to comment on MTU/RWIN because Ive just made a post elsewhere about it.
MTU tweaking can be an art. Putting in a wrong value can make things worse. If youre a n00b at is best sticking to the section in the main box at http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/tweak2.htm
If you use the MTU/RWIN calculator on that page then you should be fine with those since those are all safe values.
Finally though MTU problems cause throughput issues and dont affect actual sync speed.
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DG834Gv4 seem to have a pretty good reputation - same chipset as the much favoured DG834GT for stability.
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Kitz wrote:
> DG834Gv4 seem to have a pretty good reputation - same chipset as the much favoured DG834GT for stability.
I have two new DG834v4 units (non-wireless). I paid a visit this morning to a new one that has been up and running for a fortnight on a brand new line which is very short and has outstandingly good numbers - flat out 8128/448 IPStream Max (the SOHO standard flavour, not Premium Max).
After the ten day training period is now over, and after a reboot this morning to allow it to change its plan if needed we see
Connection Speed 8128 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 12.0 db 5.0 db
Noise Margin 15.3 db 24.0 db
Measured this morning, bone dry for days, brilliant sunshine, with adsl nation xte-2005 faceplate, no extensions, wired phone plugged in on hook. So perfectly fine performance, but not much of a test for the v4. Will get around to testing my other v4 properly by putting it onto one of my horrendous lines.
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Hello everyone.....
Another update to this situation...am still running things with my Netgear DG834 v3 router for now, however, I have ordered the Netgear router DG834 v4 from a site on the Net. Once delivered, I will set that one up instead of my current router. I am interested in doing what I can to get MORE or the MAX possible out of my line as I don't think that 2.2 Meg is my limit, hence this experimenting now with the new v4 router. And I have also been told by Virgin that I will be moved onto their new SMPF/LLU ADSL 2+ platform soon...I don't know when exactly, yet this upgrade “promises some improvements” to the speeds in general, so watch this space..........
However, I don't want to flash the DG Team firmware just yet as it will be a brand new router and I will be checking and playing with things for a while after I get it to see if it makes things better for me than the v3 one that I have at the moment.
Do you all think that I will be able to use the router “out of the box” with the DMT Tool version 8.xx?
By “out of the box”, I mean that I want to use the new router as it is fresh out if the box with DMT Tool to see if my line stats will be better, and also to see if the downstream noise margin improves over a day or two, or more with some experiments with settings on my part?
If yes, then I will move on from there to seek more help and advice from everyone here as to how I will be able to make things better or not with the new DG834 v4 router (with the new line stats, attenuation, SNR and so on).
Will keep you all posted - any more advice, please feel free to let me know.
Thanks and regards
happy37
PS - my current line stats at 19.05pm tonight (02/02/2009) from my DG834 v3 router are:-
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 2112 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 53 db 15.5 db
Noise Margin 11 db 22 db
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Hi happy
Sorry Ive been really busy over the past few days so missed a lot of in between posts - but
>> have also been told by Virgin that I will be moved onto their new SMPF/LLU ADSL 2+ platform soon...
dont get your hopes up too that it will improve things - your physical line is still going to be the same and once in the 50dB region adsl2+ doesnt make that much difference.
Check out the maximum speed calculator (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/max_speed_calc.php)
In fact some longer lines are actually better and more stable using adsl1 than adsl2+.. and its why sky and some other LLU providers often put some of their customers with longer lines on adsl1 even if the dslam is adsl2+ configured.
Dont be too surprised if your attenuation goes higher on adsl2+
>> Do you all think that I will be able to use the router “out of the box” with the DMT Tool version 8.xx?
Yes it should
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kitz
Thanks for your reply -
dont get your hopes up too that it will improve things - your physical line is still going to be the same and once in the 50dB region adsl2+ doesnt make that much difference.
I didn't know this initially - I have checked one of the graphs in another post on the forums which shows what my line is capable of with how much attenuation:-
See here:- (post number 9 on this page with the graph)
http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=3828.0
Dont be too surprised if your attenuation goes higher on adsl2+
Will see what happens when the time comes in due course.....this might work, or it might not make things any better :-\
Regarding DMT Tool version 8.xx, are there any guides/links available as to how I should set the new DG834 v4 router up to use with the program? Should I run the program at it's default settings as I want to see if my line stats will be better, and also to see if the downstream noise margin improves over a day or two, or more with some experiments with settings on my part?
In other words, I want to see if I can get a lower SNR margin with a higher sync rate without losing sync, or affecting the line/BRAS rate too much...hope that makes sense?
Thanks again for your help.
Will keep you all posted - any more advice, please feel free to let me know.
Thanks and regards
happy37
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The shape of that graph very closely follows the figures that you get from the sites maximum speed calculator (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/max_speed_calc.php) which also follows this graph
(https://forum.kitz.co.uk/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.internode.on.net%2Fmedia%2Fimages%2Finternode-adsl2-dist07.jpg&hash=da22c91d7e19e304485fb7f9955fcb22f9aa8a03)
As you can see all 3 of them show not much benefit for lines over 50dB.
Re DMT - I dont have a DG834Gv4, but it is very similar to the DG834GT which I do have...
which worked with DMT out of the box with standard firmware.
You do have to remember to put the router into debug mode first though.. and also the tweak doesnt 'stick' on the standard firmware.
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kitz
Thanks for letting me know, however, I know about the command about having to put the router into debug mode first.
and also the tweak doesnt 'stick' on the standard firmware.
Meaning what exactly, please?
BTW, the new v4 router has turned up today...have noticed that there is an additional DSL LED light indicator on this particular model that is not on previous models/versions?
Why is this only on v4?
Thanks again and regards
happy37
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Hello everyone...
I have now connected the new router and have made some adjustments with the DMT Tool version 8.
Please see attached screenshot - all comments welcome...can more improvements be made to my line, and what do you think in general of the stats which I think have now gone up and not down with this new router???
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 2400 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 58.0 db 31.5 db
Noise Margin 7.8 db 18.0 db
Thanks again for all the help - much appreciated.
Will leave things connected overnight and will post a new graph in the morning with further stats.
Rgds
happy37
PS - Are there any other settings that I can tick/untick on the main screen or in the settings in DMT Tool so that I can get a better result?
Please let me know.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Anyone please help?
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You might be able to improve a bit if you can get the SNRM lower, though that's often restricted at the DSLAM.
BUT exactly what settings have you "tweaked" with DMT to achieve that?
I'd also be looking at trying the DGTeam firmware.
Two reasons for that:
1. Improved drivers on the ADSL side
2. Tweaks can be made to "stick"
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HPsauce
Thanks for your reply - although I think that you can't see the screen on the side of DMT Tool with the error count stats and sliders etc...what I did last night was to drag down the percentage slider for the SNR margin down by 3 notches (or should that be up???) to get a better speed?
Also, are there any other settings that I can tick/untick on the main screen or in the settings in DMT Tool so that I can get a better result? - please let me know.
What can I do with the DGTeam firmware that I can't do with the standard Netgear firmware?
Any links, please for this firmware so that I can use it with this Netgear v4 router?
Thanks again.
Rgds
happy37
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what I did last night was to drag down the percentage slider for the SNR margin down by 3 notches
So was that to 70%? (seems consistent with the SNRM change)
Probably worth trying 50% then Apply/Resync then post the results here. Should get nearer 6dB.
Now would probably be a good time (mid-morning) but don't do it again today unless there are problems.
Leave the other options alone.
PS. The DGTeam web site has been down for a few days, maybe Kitz knows why?
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HPsauce
I think that I moved it down to nearer the bottom of the scale where it says 10%, so I think that it would have been set at 30% instead?
So, are you saying that I should set the slider at 50%?
Now would probably be a good time (mid-morning) but don't do it again today unless there are problems.
I am at work at the moment, so shall I try and change things later tonight, or would it be better to do so first thing tomorrow AM when things are quiet on the Net?
Please provide any links to the DG Team firmware site for the version 4 firmware for the DG834 router.
Thanks again.
Rgds
happy37
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Hmmmmm. If you're not sure I can't really say.
The last "normal" stats you posted showed an 11dB noise margin, suggesting that your target SNRM may be 12 (but it could be 15) - it depends how soon after a resync that was.
But 50% would be reasonably safe to try.
Timing is not when the Internet is quiet but when background electrical interference is at a minimum.
This is normally NOT in the evening but is often during daylight hours.
However, if you've monitored your SNRM with Routerstats you may know when your line conditions are best (SNRM at its HIGHEST).
In my case it's usually after everyone has had breakfast and headed for work but before the mid-late morning switch-on for elevenses/lunch. But it will depend what's in your area.
The DGTeam web site WAS at http://dgteam.ilbello.com
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Thanks again - I remember for sure that I moved the slider down towards the bottom of the scale instead of upwards.
I will move this to the 50% mark and will post back with a new screenshot and stats in due course.
Timing is not when the Internet is quiet but when background electrical interference is at a minimum.
For me, I have found that this is at a minimum at around 5am in the mornings when I only sometimes switch my PC on, or even use it when I have left it on overnight.
So, will do as you've suggested and will revert in due course.....
Thanks again - much appreciated.
Please feel free to add anything else that you think that might be useful for me to know.
Rgds
happy37
PS - I have downloaded the DG Team firmware for the v4 router (so that I can see what is involved).....I would like to know which file(s) I should use when the time comes for me to flash the router?
There are 3 files that I downloaded - 1 is a ZIP file, and the 2 others have a tar.bz2 filename extension?
So, how do I use these files? - all 3, or another combination?
Thanks again.
Rgds
happy37
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I have downloaded the DG Team firmware for the v4 router (so that I can see what is involved).....I would like to know which file(s) I should use when the time comes for me to flash the router?
There are 3 files that I downloaded - 1 is a ZIP file, and the 2 others have a tar.bz2 filename extension?
So, how do I use these files? - all 3, or another combination?
Thanks again.
Rgds
happy37
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So, how do I use these files?
They all contain the same thing, in different formats.
e.g. look inside the ZIP and you'll see a .img file. you need to extract that to a convenient place on your PC.
Then log into your router and run the Router Upgrade, pointing it at the extracted .img file.
It just takes a couple of minutes.
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Thanks for letting me know - eg - I downloaded the files from Mirrror 2 from the DG Team website.
The ZIP file has got 2 .img files inside it, as well as the 2 others which have a tar.bz2 filename extension.
Will I be OK in using the ZIP file, but why has it got 2 .img files, and not only 1?
Rgds
happy37
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but why has it got 2 .img files, and not only 1?
Sorry, no idea, what are they?
I can't access the DGTeam site at present due to what looks like a configuration error on their server which is effectively locking out a large range of IP addresses in which I am.
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Hi HP
One is called DG834V4_V5.01.12_DGTeam_0849_023o.img, and the other is DG834V4_V5.01.12_DGTeam_0849_023b.img?
Which one should be used, and why?
I have also checked another mirror site and the ZIP file from there also contains 2 files, and not 1?
Any ideas, please?
Thanks
Rgds
happy37
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You'll need to read the info on the web site to confirm which is for use in the UK.
Or someone else knowledgeable can do it, I can't at present.
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Try the 023o version; it's the more advanced, but either should work fine.
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Eric and HPsauce
Many thanks for letting me know, however here are some stats from DMT Tool version 8:-
Please have a look and interpret them for me - thanks!!!
Counters Down Up
SF: 3185 3125
SFErr: 1 0
RS: 108302 53125
RSCorr: 20 0
RSUnCorr: 18 0
HEC: 1 0
OCD: 0 0
LCD: 0 0
Total Cells: 306660
Data Cells: 393
Drop Cells: 0
Bit Errors: 0 0
ES: 440 0
SES: 2 0
UAS: 238 0
AS: 54
INP: 1.25 1.00
PER: 1.88 1.85
delay: 8.62 8.50
OR: 29.68 30.11
Bitswap: 0 0
Total time = 11hours 48min 14sec
SF = 2474042 CRC = 933
LOS = 0 LOF = 0 ES = 440
Latest 1 day time = 11hours 48min 14sec
SF = 2474042 CRC = 933
LOS = 0 LOF = 0 ES = 440
Previous 1 day time = 0sec
SF = 0 CRC = 0
LOS = 0 LOF = 0 ES = 0
Rgds
happy37
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Anyone please help?
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Nothing scary at a first glance.
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HPsauce
Many thanks - anyone else got anything detailed to add. please?
Thanks
happy37
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Nope - as HP says looks ok.
The RS errors seems to have been racking up in the past 11 hours... I notice youve got some Errored Seconds, SES' and UAS. Therefore wouldnt really ever recommend that line without interleaving as that will be helping to keep the line stable... but thats about it.
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kitz et al
Thanks for taking a look at the stats.....here's what I've managed to do last night:-
I flashed the Netgear v4 router with the DGTeam firmware version 0849 from Mirror 2 at http://www.4shared.com/dir/9746794/978bcf21/DG834_G_-V4.html ;)
I let the flash program do its doing, shut down the PC and router and rebooted everything, and lo and behold, the router came up fine with the DGTeam logo at the top, so all is running fine there at the moment.
Next, I went into the Advanced ADSL Settings and moved the SNRM slider down from 100% to 2%, applied/saved my settings and shut everyting down overnight. (just wanted to see how these settings work, anyone got any recommendations?)
This morning, I powered up the router, connected it to the phone line and got a sync rate of 2720kbps, and the SNR was showing as 6.5db.
I have left the connection plugged in so to see if it will attain the same sync rate all day, or will it have dropped by the time I get home from work tonight at around 4.45pm?
I would like to know whether there are any more settings within the DGTeam firmware that I could use to get more out of my line - what do you all think that I would be able to get if I tweaked settings further, please?
Thanks again for all the advice and suggestions - these have helped me a lot and I was actually not too sure about doing any of the above myself, yet I have found that with a lot of help and suggestions and my own reading around the site, I think that I've managed to do quite well.....
Now, hopefully onwards and upwards (to get the best that I can out of my line, with everyone's help...)
Thanks again - much appreciated.....all responses welcome.
Rgds
happy37
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sync rate of 2720kbps, and the SNR was showing as 6.5db.
any more settings within the DGTeam firmware that I could use to get more out of my line
Good result. :)
There are unlikely to be any other settings of interest or relevance on your service, certainly not at this stage.
VERY IMPORTANT
You must keep an eye on each and every resync from now on. If the target SNR changes (which it may well do) you could end up resyncing at a dangerously low margin causing repeated errors & resyncs, which will push the margin back up again.
I would suggest changing the % to a higher value, in daily steps of say 10%, until it results in a figure just above 6dB.
Don't resync several times in succession or more than once or twice a day.
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HPsauce
Thanks for your reply - oops, just seen your edited post...apart from what you mention, what else would you suggest that I do now?
Thanks again.
Rgds
happy37
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Just keep a close eye on it and make sure your % is always set optimally not aggressively.
It doesn't take much for the DSLAM to ratchet the target up.. :(
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HPsauce
Agreed - will do.....if there's any change, will pop back and let you all know.
Thanks and regards
happy37
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Hi all
Popping back with a related question to ADSL Max services:-
Seeing that I am syncing at 2720kbps at the moment with a max possible speed of 2 Meg (and maybe more if my line can handle it), what doesn't make sense to me is the fact that 2 weeks ago, before I switched to the Max service, I checked my ADSL availability via BT Wholesale's ADSL checker and it stated an ADSL Max service potential of 3 Megs or greater.
I did the same thing last week and it (and other checkers) stated 1 Meg ???
So, what's going on? - can anyone shed any light in this as Virgin have also just told me today that my line is only capable of 1 Meg? 1 Meg was what I was getting on their fixed service - surely, if I am syncing at 2720kbps at the moment, then am I right in saying that my line is indeed capable of more?
Who do I believe? - my own thinking, or that of Virgin, BT Wholesale and the other myriad of “ADSL checkers” that are on the Internet?
If anyone can shed any light in this, I'd be extremely grateful.
Thanks again for the help.
All replies welcome - regards
happy37
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Believe what you find. The others are just estimates.
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HP
Thought that you'd say this - I am only confident in my results.....I will attempt with everyone's help on here to do the best possible to get what I can out of my line.
Thanks again.....will keep you posted with more stats and graphs over the course of the weekend.
Will be grateful for your and other peoples' input regarding those.
Rgds
happy37
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Hello everyone...
Please see attached a Routerstats graph taken tonight from 4.40pm to 6pm - any comments, please?
Thanks
happy37
[attachment deleted by admin]
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It's a poor-quality image, but looks like it's stable at 2.??meg.
(Edit - irrelevant comment removed)
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HP
Thanks again...please see a different image...is this one any clearer?
That suggests you're in "noise on" mode whenever it was.
Meaning what exactly? - aplogies, I am still a noob when it comes to learning about ADSL Max, so I am still not totally “au fait” with all of the terms that are used on here.
Thanks again for your help.
Rgds
happy37
[attachment deleted by admin]
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That suggests you're in "noise on" mode whenever it was.
Sorry, just ignore that, I was thinking of someone else's problem.
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Hello again
I am tweaking my connection with a new Netgear router, the DG834 v4 and I am also using the DGTeam firmware - version 5.01.12 - DGTeam Rev. 0849.
The slider in the DGTeam firmware is currently set at 10%, and my connection has been live for more than 3 days now...see below:-
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 212629 280051 0 95 1075 77:31:21
LAN 10M/100M 455098 425077 0 1232 257 77:31:53
WLAN 11M/54M 0 0 0 0 0 00:00:00
My current stats are:-
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 2304 kbps 448 kbps
Line Attenuation 59.0 db 31.5 db
Noise Margin 10.7 db 19.0 db
Please also see attached a Routerstats graph taken this morning from 08.25am to 09.45am - any comments, please?
PS - I will also be moving over to the adsl 2+ product which Virgin are offering at the moment via the C&W network and LLU. This will happen on 19/02/2009 - I will pop back and post how it goes, as well as new stats and graphs.
Thanks again - all comments welcome.
Rgds
happy37
[attachment deleted by admin]
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I think you can imagine the comments.... you're very lucky to have a graph that stable with a line as long as that. Your telephone line is obviously very clean, and this is helping you get a healthy 2Mb connection.
Although having just seen the number of pages in this topic, I'm sure all that's been said already!
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Chris
Many thanks for your comments - waht do you think that my speeds will be like on the ADSL 2+ C&W LLU product from the 19th, please?
Any estimates?
Thanks again...
Rgds
happy37
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- waht do you think that my speeds will be like on the ADSL 2+ C&W LLU product
The same. ADSL2+ is hardly any faster on long lines like yours and can be more sensitive to interference.
They may be a bit faster initially as you'll probably start on a 6dB margin, but that may not stay stable.
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HP
Thanks for your comments - will post back in due course with stats and graphs once I get activated on the 19th.
Anyone else like to comment, please?
Rgds
happy37
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Hi happy37,
I agree with HPsauce's comments. I know of a new O2 ADSL2+ user on a line of over 4 km who managed to get throughput speeds of 1447 kbps down and 846 kbps up.
I.e. the download was about the same he had before but the upload doubled. Don't expect miracles !
Kind regards,
Walter
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Hi Walter
Thanks for your comments - will keep you posted as to how it all goes.....
Comments noted, by the way...
Rgds
happy37
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Hello everyone.....
Here's an update:-
I have been moved over onto a new Cable & Wireless LLU product/connection by Virgin using their new SMPF platform.
Here's a sample of my new stats:- (taken now at around 01.05am)
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3059 kbps 795 kbps
Line Attenuation 59.0 db 34.0 db
Noise Margin 3.5 db 6.1 db
Please comment on these - any more room for improvement, or this the max that my line can go?
I also attach a DMT Tools graph for your perusal...all comments and advice welcome.
Thanks again and regards
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Hi happy37,
You will note that you are doing reasonably well for your line length if you put your attenuation figure into Kitz's estimator:-
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/max_speed_calc.php
The noise margin is a bit low but then we've discussed master socket positioning ad nausiam.
You could report on your actual throughput speed using:-
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/speedtest.html
which hopefully would give you about 2,500 kbps.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Hi Walter
Thanks for letting me know - are ther any caveats if I think that I can squeeze any more kbs from my line, or have I reached the “end of the line” (pun intended), so to speak?
PS - I am using a master socket now to connect my router to.
Please let me know.
Regards
happy37
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Hi Happy37,
You haven't yet shown us any recent sets of throughput speed tests at different times of the day so we can't see if there are any time-related peaks or troughs.
You could continue (Very Careful) tweaking experiments with different modems and firmware but at some cost.
You could also rewire the house putting the master socket immediatly at the point the drop wire enters it.
The experts can comment upon your DMT data but we can't defeat the laws of physics.
However I suggest you're probably at the point where there will only be small improvements possible.
Kind regrds,
Walter
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Hi Walter and others:-
Here's a speedtest result taken just now:-
http://www.speedtest.net/result/415719147.png
Any comments, please?
By the way, what site or sites do you all recommend for testing an LLU connection?
Thanks and regards
happy37
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Over 80% of your sync speed (as last reported). That's fine. ;D
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Hi HP
Thanks for this - that's good to know that it's performing well ;D
Any thoughts on speedtesters for LLU connections, please?
Can I get more out of my line now?
Thanks
Regards
happy37
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>> Any thoughts on speedtesters for LLU connections, please?
Im not quite sure what you mean by that?
Same as with any other line - if you are in the UK then choose a speedtester hosted on a fast UK server - such as the one at Thinkbroadband.
>> Can I get more out of my line now?
Based on a 60dB attenuation line - a throughput speed of 2500 looks pretty damn good to me. :)
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Kitz
Thanks for your reply:-
Based on a 60dB attenuation line - a throughput speed of 2500 looks pretty damn good to me. :)
How about this result, then? (taken at 19.20pm tonight)
http://www.speedtest.net/result/416245321.png
Thanks for the advice about the speedtesters by the way, it's just that I thought that there's a difference between in using one for IPStream connections and for those people that are on LLU connections. So, that matter is cleared up then.
All replies welcome...thanks again.
Regards
happy37
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I thought that there's a difference between in using one for IPStream connections and for those people that are on LLU connections.
Well there is a BT speed tester that gives more information and is useful for diagnosing problems - when you're on a BT line. ;)
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Hi Happy37,
It would be good to follow Kitz's suggestion.
if you are in the UK then choose a speedtester hosted on a fast UK server - such as the one at Thinkbroadband.
See their article at
http://www.thinkbroadband.com/news/i/3779.html
If you register and record your speeds on different occasions you can obtain that list and graphs whenever you want to.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Walter
Hello again and thanks for this advice - I already use this site's speed tester and do check the graphs and data from time to time to see how things are going.
By the way, can someone confirm for me what the latest firmware version is for the Netgear DG834 v4 router, please?
I am currently using version 0849.
Thanks and regards
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Hi Happy37,
To answer your question in a generic way for all Netgear users go to:-
http://kb.netgear.com/app/products/list/p3/161
where all downloadable firmware versions for all countries are provided.
Kind regards,
Walter
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Walter
Thanks for your reply - should have actually mentioned that I am using the DGTeam firmware version 0849, and not the standard Netgear firmware.
So, I take it that version 0849 is the latest stable release of the DGTeam firmware, although there is a 0850 version available as well?
Please let me know.
Will keep you posted with further stats and speedtests in due course.
Regards
happy37
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I thought that there's a difference between in using one for IPStream connections and for those people that are on LLU connections.
Well there is a BT speed tester that gives more information and is useful for diagnosing problems - when you're on a BT line. ;)
If it works as it seems broken today.
http://speedtester.bt.com/
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Hi
http://speedtester.bt.com/
working OK now :)
Regards Jeff
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Hi all
Here's a graph of my downstream noise margin, taken from 18.30pm to just now at 19.50pm.
Any comments/observations, please?
Thanks and regards
happy37
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Looks less variable than mine over the same period.
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Looks less variable than mine over the same period.
Hi HP
How's you? - thanks for your comment...means what in layman terms exactly, please?
Looking good, bad, worse, or could it simply be better?
Current stats are:-
System Up Time 15:39:44
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 102077 136648 0 165 2683 15:38:51
LAN 10M/100M 150173 114351 0 2845 228 15:39:35
WLAN 11M/54M 0 0 0 0 0 00:00:00
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3059 kbps 760 kbps
Line Attenuation 59.5 db 34.5 db
Noise Margin 3.2 db 6.0 db
Pls let me know - thanks!!!
Regards
happy37
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happy - I suggest you have a read through the following page then you will understand yourself whats going on.
http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats.htm
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Well, I tend to think that it is what it is, depending on whatever is generating interference.
You've got a very long line and are pushing the limits (though not as much as me, but I've got good insurance!) and it's not varying too much.
You're getting above average performance but whether it stays stable long-term who knows. That sample looks reasonable and as far as anyone would normally go.
How far it's worth pushing depends on your ISP - remind us...
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02 iirc
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Well, I tend to think that it is what it is, depending on whatever is generating interference.
You've got a very long line and are pushing the limits (though not as much as me, but I've got good insurance!) and it's not varying too much.
You're getting above average performance but whether it stays stable long-term who knows. That sample looks reasonable and as far as anyone would normally go.
How far it's worth pushing depends on your ISP - remind us...
02 iirc
It's actually Virgin Media, and unless I've mentioned this already, I am now on an LLU connection with them. This is on the Cable and Wireless ADSL 2+ LLU network using an SMPF platform.
So, what do you all think...can I push things further or not?
Regards
happy37
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Hi all
Here's one of my latest speedtest results:-
http://speed.io/pics/1795/2063/speed.io.png
Any comments, please?
Thanks...
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Hi Happy37,
Apart from your clock being on Summertime already, your download speed is reasonable and your ADSL2+ upload speed is slightly better than if it were a BT connection.
Relax and be Happy !
Kind regards,
Walter
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Hello everyone
Am popping back to ask your opinion:-
As you all know, my setup is as per the previous posts, and all has been running well until now.
I have a new Master socket into which my new Netgear DG834 v4 router is plugged.
My speeds in March were:-
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 3379 kbps 731 kbps
Line Attenuation 59.0 db 34.0 db
Noise Margin 1.5 db 5.8 db
Lst night, they were:-
System Up Time 04:13:52
Port Status TxPkts RxPkts Collisions Tx B/s Rx B/s Up Time
WAN PPPoA 61389 75884 0 322 4242 04:12:59
LAN 10M/100M 79426 64992 0 4400 442 04:13:43
WLAN 11M/54M 0 0 0 0 0 00:00:00
ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
Connection Speed 2719 kbps 687 kbps
Line Attenuation 60.5 db 34.5 db
Noise Margin 4.1 db 5.6 db
I am on the Virgin upto 8mb ADSL Max product via LLU/SMPF on the C&W network.
I spoke to Virgin about this, and they said that they will do some tests at their end to determine why my speeds have gone down?
They also advised me to get another new router and try that??
Bearing in mind that I have already still got the previous Virgin supplied Netgear DG834GSP version 3 router with the T1-AR7 chipset which I swapped for the current DG834 v4 router (Broadcom chipset) with DG Team firmware 0849.
My question is this:-
Should I now get yet another new router to try out or not? Was thinking of the Netgear DG834GT router...will this be any better, and what firmware should I use with it? Any links please?
What do you all you peeps think (especially any Openreach ones that visit here???)
Are Virgin talking bu**sh*t, and what can I now do to improve things? - I have ordered some new filters this morning to see if these will make things better.
All your thoughts and comments are most welcome.
Rgds
happy37
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I don't really think that there's any issue here. In your figures from last night, you were just about holding on to your connection with a very low noise margin. Since then there has been a re-sync, and it connected with your target noise margin, resulting in a lower speed. With an attenuation of 60 dB, I'm afraid that your present speed is about what is to be expected.
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Hi Eric
Thanks for your reply - so how does that explain that I don't get the higher speeds that I've had before?
What can be done to get those sort of speeds now?
Thanks again.
Rgds
happy37
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I presume that you've already done everything you can to optimise your own wiring setup. Beyond that, there's not much you can do, unless there's a line fault or a source of high interference to be dealt with, neither of which seem to apply in your case. I think you've squeezed as much as you can out of your line, and will have to accept that performance is likely to vary a bit from time to time.
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I presume that you've already done everything you can to optimise your own wiring setup. Beyond that, there's not much you can do, unless there's a line fault or a source of high interference to be dealt with, neither of which seem to apply in your case. I think you've squeezed as much as you can out of your line, and will have to accept that performance is likely to vary a bit from time to time.
Eric
Thanks for your reply - have noted your comments, yet will replace the filters that I currently have with new ones as I am sure that this issue showed itself after I put these current filters on the line.
By the way, how can I check for a line fault or a source of high interference? - what do I need to look/check for, and how do I go about getting these resolved, please?
Many thanks once again - still learning...!!!
Rgds
happy37
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happy - you could start with a quiet line test, think you need to dial 14707 (someone jump in if I've got it wrong, can't remember ottomh), and follow the instructions (option 2 i think)...go from there...
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The number is 17070
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cheers eric, haven't had to use it for a while, so a bit rusty ;D