Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: MollyCoddle on November 27, 2008, 08:59:24 PM
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I have a real problem with my ISP. Their lack of knowledge or possibly clever tactics has led me to try to explain to them, what I need from them. They use BTw ADSLmax
I believe my bRAS profile is not adapting and I need BTw to restart my MSR!!!
My Router tells me:-
USRobotics Sureconnect
Mode: G.DMT
Type: Interleave
Line Coding: Trellis Off
Status: No Defect
Total ES: 62
Total SES: 0
Total UAS: 19
Downstream Upstream
SNR Margin (dB): 8.4 24.0
Attenuation (dB): 44.5 27.0
Output Power (dBm): 11.9 19.7
Attainable Rate (Kbps): 4672 1120
Rate (Kbps): 4192 448
K (number of bytes in DMT frame): 132 15
R (number of check bytes in RS code word): 12 16
S (RS code word size in DMT frame): 1 8
D (interleaver depth): 16 2
Super Frames: 2116040 2116038
Super Frame Errors: 88 8
RS Words: 143890784 17986323
RS Correctable Errors: 906839 50
RS Uncorrectable Errors: 657 N/A
HEC Errors: 78 0
OCD Errors: 0 0
LCD Errors: 0 0
ES Errors 0 0
BT's speedtester tells me:-
Your DSL connection rate 4192 kbps(DOWN-STREAM) 488 kbps(UP-STREAM)
IP profile for your line is 2000 kbps
Actual IP throughput achieved during the test was 1825 kbps
My router is directly connected to the MasterBox using a ADSLNation XTE
Help with my phrasing would be appreciated
Am I right in saying that my profile is stuck at 2000 kbps as my sync speed is 4192 kbps I need an IP profile reset from BTw?
Thanks in advance
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No, you are wrong. For a start profile changes take 3 to 7 days to work through.
You have some other problems as indicated by the low Output Power and low speed for attenuation.
Local wiring problems would be typical; do you have any extensions wired to your faceplate?
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That output power is very low.. it would be interesting to see some stats immediately after a resync.
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Looking at it again I wonder if the router is reporting upstream/downstream power the wrong way round?
Still the wrong sync speed though...........
How long have you been syncing at that sort of speed?
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Thanks for your help
I do not mind being wrong - I knew nothing about ADSL 3 days ago - steep learning curve hey!!!,
so I do not know how long I have sycronised at this speed. All I know is that for the last 5 weeks I have been experiencing 'observable' speed reduction on my applications and downloads, about a factor of 10 decrease in speed.
Thats why I invested in a XTE and moved all my connections to the NTE solely.
No extension wiring, all I have now is my USRobotics 'ADSL 4-Port Router Model 9105' and my BT DECT plugged into the ADSL Nation XTE I installed a few days ago.
I turned my router off for 30s and powered up at 9:00am UK time today, here are the results from the jury with DOWNSTREAM always first column :-
Mode: G.DMT
Type: Interleave
Line Coding: Trellis Off
Status: No Defect
Total ES: 0
Total SES: 0
Total UAS: 13
Downstream Upstream
SNR Margin (dB): 15.4 25.0
Attenuation (dB): 44.5 27.0
Output Power (dBm): 11.9 19.7
Attainable Rate (Kbps): 4704 1124
Rate (Kbps): 4224 448
K (number of bytes in DMT frame): 133 15
R (number of check bytes in RS code word): 12 16
S (RS code word size in DMT frame): 1 8
D (interleaver depth): 16 2
Super Frames: 9703 9701
Super Frame Errors: 0 0
RS Words: 659852 82458
RS Correctable Errors: 24 0
RS Uncorrectable Errors: 0 N/A
HEC Errors: 0 0
OCD Errors: 0 0
LCD Errors: 0 0
ES Errors 0 0
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Hmmmm.
The Downstream SN margin being over 15 is a bad sign. It should be nearer 6 after a reboot.
But that might (does) explain the sync speed being low - it should be over 5.5meg.
If you've been like that for weeks then anything could have been going on.
Initially I'd suggest monitoring things over a few days. Leave the router on and restart it once a day (ideally in the morning) and note the following 2 or 3 times a day:
Downstream sync speed and SN Margin
IP Profile as reported by BT Speed Tester (this takes several days to change)
Also, double-filter your DECT phone - i.e. plug it into a filter then plug that filter into the filtered faceplate.
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Thanks for the additional info, I think that helps clarify a few things about what may have been going on.
It seems like previously things were unstable, and Im hoping that by changing what you have done has now made the line more stable.
The figures after the resync would seem to confirm that it is the router firmware that is displaying the output power the wrong way round. - Power output can sometimes drop after a while if your SNRMargin goes too high above your Target SNR, which is why I wanted to see a resync to see what your Target SNR is.
As HP has already said your Target SNR is 15dB, which is a sign that over the past few weeks youve been experiencing very unstable line conditions, disconnections and ties in with the speed reductions.
What we need now is a period of stability on that line and hopefully your Target SNR will reduce, which will in turn allow the router to sync at higher speeds.
I can now perhaps see why your ISP are a bit reluctant to get involved right now - if they requested BTw to reduce anything, based on the past instability the answer would probably be No.
As HP said, that line needs a little bit more monitoring to see if things have improved particularly in the evenings.
I know where HP is coming from with the restart once a day, but on this occasion I'm going to suggest leaving it connected for a few days - or at least making sure that you make a note of what your sync speed and SNRM is before you do the resync as I want to make sure that the router is holding that 4224 sync.
Unfortunately it doesnt look like the router records your uptime... and if it is auto resyncing in the evenings... doing a resync in the mornings could upset that.
I dont know how adept you are with PCs and Im not sure if routerstats (http://www.vwlowen.co.uk/internet/files.htm) will work with your router, - with a bit of messing you may be able to get it working with the full version.
If you can it will take away a lot of the hard work of the monitoring your line.
Also keep checking the BTw IPprofile, Im hoping that it will soon change.
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Note to self
USR 9105 uses BCM6345 chipset - may work with DMTv8
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but on this occasion I'm going to suggest leaving it connected for a few days - or at least making sure that you make a note of what your sync speed and SNRM is before you do the resync as I want to make sure that the router is holding that 4224 sync.
Excellent point, I did think about that but didn't have time to write a lot and explain. 8)
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nps HP, your suggestions and points are normally very good ones and your input is much appreciated :)
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@ kitz and HPsauce; thanks both for your input and help.
I will gather both router and BT test data 3 times a day for 5 days, I will also assess whether Routerstats will work with USR 9105 and give you feedback on that. I intuit that it will be better not to re-sync the router during this period.
Post back to you then, unless further posts on this thread need answering.
Good forum this.
MC
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Hi,
If your IP Profile stays at 2000 (assuming you don't have any low sync events) then it looks to me as if your profile is 'stuck'. I've seen quite a few of these 'stuck' profiles - often they occur when moving to Max from a fixed product.
If it stays at 2000 then I would ask your ISP if you have a 'stuck radius profile' - my ISP (Freeola/Entanet) resolves these problems almost immediately so yours should be able to manage it.
Let us know how you get on...
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@ b4dger, thanks but evryone I have spoken to at my ISP know less than I do about ADSL (see the bottom ISP rating on this site).
In addition to my recent post about Noise, here is what I have thus far. My throughput has improved quite a bit in this time, yet I expect 5.5Mb with my attenuation IF THE LINE WAS OK!!!.
The following is reported as it appears on my router, I mention this as there is some doubt about the orientation of some data.
I would be grateful for your knowledgeable feedback.
Sorry, the format changes after saving the post and after modifying
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Date of test 28-11-08 28-11-08
time of test 16:08 20:11
Router uptime (approx) 7 hrs 11 hrs
Total ES: 13 53
Total SES: 0 0
Total UAS: 13 13
Downstream Upstream Downstream Upstream
SNR Margin (dB): 14.1 25.0 8.6 25.0
Attenuation (dB): 44.5 27.0 44.5 27.0
Output Power (dBm): 11.9 19.7 11.9 19.7
Attainable Rate (Kbps): 4704 1124 4704 1124
Rate (Kbps): 4224 448 4224 448
Super Frames: 1506929 1506927 2363990 2363988
Super Frame Errors: 12 0 64 0
RS Words: 102471190 12808879 160751363 20093898
RS Correctable Errors: 3882 0 1384494 0
RS Uncorrectable Errors: 97 N/A 478 N/A
HEC Errors: 10 0 50 0
OCD Errors: 0 0 2 0
LCD Errors: 0 0 0 0
ES Errors 0 0 0 0
BT Best Effort Test
Your DSL conn rate: 4224 kbps 448 kbps 4224 kbps 448 kbps
IP profile - 3500 kbps 3500 kbps
Actual IP throughput - 3258 kbps 3024 kbps
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Date of test 29-11-08 29-11-08 29-11-08
time of test 10:56 15:34 19:07
Router uptime (approx) 1 day 1.5 hrs 1 day 6 hrs 1 day 10 hrs
Total ES: 128 159 202
Total SES: 0 0 0
Total UAS: 13 13 13
Downstream Upstream Downstream Upstream Downstream Upstream
SNR Margin (dB): 12.9 25.0 11.8 25.0 9.1 25.0
Attenuation (dB): 44.5 27.0 44.5 27.0 44.5 27.0
Output Power (dBm): 11.9 19.7 11.9 19.7 11.9 19.7
Attainable Rate (Kbps): 4704 1124 4704 1124 4704 1124
Rate (Kbps): 4224 448 4224 448 4224 448
Super Frames: 5278105 5278103 6474744 6474742 7226709 7226707
Super Frame Errors: 152 0 187 0 241 0
RS Words: 358911148 44863875 440282635 55035307 491416258 61427009
RS Correctable Errors: 3828655 0 3833383 0 4446571 2
RS Uncorrectable Errors: 1342 N/A 1620 N/A 2116 N/A
HEC Errors: 121 0 149 0 196 0
OCD Errors: 7 0 8 0 13 0
LCD Errors: 0 0 0 0 0 0
ES Errors 0 0 0 0 0 0
BT Best Effort Test
Your DSL conn rate: 4224 kbps 448 kbps 4224 kbps 448 kbps 4224 kbps 448 kbps
IP profile - 3500 kbps 3500 kbps 3500 kbps
Actual IP throughput - 3213 kbps 3261 kbps 3166 kbps
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Date of test 30-11-08 30-11-08
time of test 10:30 20:00
Router uptime (approx) 2 days 1 hrs 2 days 10hrs
Total ES: 668 53
Total SES: 1 0
Total UAS: 13 13
Downstream Upstream Downstream Upstream
SNR Margin (dB): 12.6 25.0 8.4 25.0
Attenuation (dB): 44.5 27.0 44.5 27.0
Output Power (dBm): 11.9 19.7 11.9 19.7
Attainable Rate (Kbps): 4704 1124 4704 1124
Rate (Kbps): 4224 448 4224 448
Super Frames: 10487930 10487928 12507343 12507341
Super Frame Errors: 1116 0 1243 0
RS Words: 713179253 89147388 850499385 106312398
RS Correctable Errors: 37943939 2 42443350 2
RS Uncorrectable Errors: 4486 N/A 5362 N/A
HEC Errors: 898 0 1003 0
OCD Errors: 19 0 25 0
LCD Errors: 0 0 0 0
ES Errors 0 0 0 0
BT Best Effort Test
Your DSL conn rate: 4224 kbps 448 kbps 4224 kbps 448 kbps
IP profile - 3500 kbps 3500 kbps
Actual IP throughput - 3267 kbps 3028 kbps
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So your IP profile has gone up as it should, from 2000 to 3500. ;)
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Yes, however the SNR (RX) gets GRADUALLY very bad, see http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=3689.0 (http://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php?topic=3689.0)
From my attenuation of 44.5, I beleieve I can get 5.5Mb, should I be able to solve this noise riddle.
A few things are apparent to me, I would be grateful for feedback:-
1. From the RouterStats chart of RX SNR it looks like its the routers measure of the analogue noise on the RX channel, I wonder why the TX SNR is as flat as a pancake. If the router was measuring analogue, the extent of the RX SNR drop off would have some correlated change on the TX SNR, it does not, therefore I do not see it as RFI.
2. I can boost my O/P power ( to talk louder to my friend across the music in the echo-y room). I assume DMT can change this in my router to allow this power change to stick through power cycling. Or I can get a different router.
3. I have heard chat about a BT RFI choke that is more ADSL friendly, any ideas how I go about obtaining one to trial?, or does anyone know of a suitable electronic part I can try from RS or Maplins?. I intend no disrespect to anyone on this board or to anyones profession, however my experience has led me to realise its no good asking the standard BT/ISP service contacts for this.
4. 17070 has a "QUICK CLEANSE" option, is this a high current burst that blows HR/minor earth faults?.
I would be grateful for Ezzers input on the last two.
Thanks again, MC
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From my attenuation of 44.5, I beleieve I can get 5.5Mb, should I be able to solve this noise riddle.
Well thereabouts depending on local conditions, it's not exact.
And you're actually quite close at over 4meg sync rate.
Your target SNR is probably at 12dB at present causing something of a reduction.
Interference, if that's what it is, is presumably of a frequency such that it's hitting the (higher) downstream frequencies more than upstream. I think this is normal/common.
And no you can't boost output power. Even if you did it would only affect upstream which isn't the issue.
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Glad to see your IP Profile isn't stuck.
As your Target SNR looks like it's 15db it will reduce your sync to attempt to stabilise the line (as others have said).
This 'should' reduce automatically over time if your line is stable - but sometimes needs to be manually adjusted if the line can take it.
I've had a quick scan through the other posts so may have missed it - but have you tried running directly from the 'test' socket behind the removable faceplate if you have a modern master socket (NTE5)? This will show you if your internal wiring is affecting things...
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adsl uses various different frequencies. Downstream uses higher frequencies than upstream and the 2 are kept separate to avoid crosstalk. The type of modulation used in adsl ensures that if noise is encountered at a particular downstream frequency then it will at least attempt to transmit some data on different channels (bit swapping). However there becomes a point when some channels are way too noisy and the router has to 'shut them down'. This shows as a reduction in the overall SNRM and/or lower sync speed.
The above is a simplified explanation, but gives the gist of it.
You cant really boost your output power as such* since this is negiotated between the router and dslam, mostly controlled by the dslam. If you output power was too high then it would drown out neighbouring lines and cause cross-talk for them.
But you are kind of on the right track because With DMT youre changing your Target Noise to a accept a lower SNR figure, which will allow you to sync at a higher rate.
Some routers do allow you to over-ride the target SNR. Using the DMT tool is the easiest way of doing so.
Ive not personally heard of a specialised BT RFI choke - theres something called RF filters that BT will install on some lines if you live near a radio transmitter. But be aware RF2s have a drastic affect on adsl, and RF3's will/can lower your sync speed since adsl and AM radio use some of the same frequencies.
The other thing I think they may be talking about is the I-Plate? This stops interference on the bell wire, but you can sort that yourself for a cost of £0 and a little bit of time by removing the ring wire (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/socket.htm) yourself.
Some other users have also tried RF filters of the type you can get from Maplins, its not something Ive actually experimented with so I cant comment on that Im afraid.
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@ kitz, HPsauce and b4dger,
Thanks for your feedback, and I am sorry for point 2 in my last post, I was half way to work when I realised I had posted too early in the morning. O/P-I/P mix up in my brain ---- doh.
To answer some of the points you kind souls have raised.
I am running off the ADSL Nation faceplate with no other wiring, do I still trial directly off the NTE backplate??
I will not post any further data, as it seems you have enough, unless you suggest the NTE backplate.
My strategy will be to give it a few more days then play with the DMT tool. If I find that the USR needs re-DMT'g after a power cycle, then I will order a new router. Changing my ISP soon may provide a suitable router change also.
Any thoughts on "4. 17070 has a "QUICK CLEANSE" option, is this a high current burst that blows HR/minor earth faults?."
I am determined to get more throughput >:D.
Thanks again, MC
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>> If I find that the USR needs re-DMT'g after a power cycle,
Im not certain on this - but afaik it uses a similar chipset as the Voyager 2100 series and share a similar CLI - which doesnt retain DMT settings during a reboot.
I think I mentioned in another of your threads I wasnt sure if DMT tool would work on it or not and I was only guessing because of the chipset it uses.
It depends though on how USR have actually implemented their firmware, so it will have to be a case of try it and see Im afraid.
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If you are sure there are no extensions connected then you shouldn't need to use the 'test' socket.
Before any tweaking I would monitor things and see if your line is stable.
Your first post showed you had previously had a low sync - but hopefully that was a one-off?!
Personally I would wait to see if your line proves to be stable - after a few weeks (or more!) if you are lucky then your Target SNR may get reduced automatically. If not, you could ask your ISP to arrange for your target to be lowered. But you should only do this if you are happy your line is stable.
If you don't have any luck with this, and you still 'feel the need', then I would look at tweaking your target via your router.
EDIT:
Reading your thread subject "What to ask poor ISP for?" - the answer could well be a 'MAC' ::)
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@ b4dger, thanks, I will take your advice of waiting a few weeks now I have a throughput of >3Mb.
My low sync must have been going on for about 5 weeks, it came at a time I was taking a forced break and not able to analyse things. I am positive there is no extension wiring.
Hopefully I will get an auto reduction, as far as asking my ISP for anything, I am afraid my system can't take that many tranx. I have already committed to getting a MAC in the middle of January. I am currently researching a new ISP and have learned the hard way that you get what you pay for.
In the mean time, now I have found this site, I will continue my steep learning curve.
Thanx All