Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ADSL Issues => Topic started by: markthomas on September 30, 2008, 09:08:49 PM
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I've been having problems (slow speed) since BT switched my ADSL across to their MAX service a year or so ago. I have spent many hours on the phone to their help desk over the course of the last 12 months and have even had a visit from a BT engineer, but the problems still persist. The engineer claimed that he had fixed the issue by disconnecting my phone extension sockets but this doesn't appear to be the case.
I am hoping that someone on this forum can help confirm whether I am stuck with this until BT upgrade their network or whether there is in fact some underlying technical issue which can be resolved.
When I was initially switched over to the MAX service my downstream connection speed was approx 1.8mb. I live in a rural location and to be honest whilst I suspect this may be bad news for most of you if I could achieve this speed today I would be quite happy!
The downstream connection speed seems to have reduced over time to the point that it is now 480k. My IP profile is 350k. To try and resolve the issue I have already done the following over the past few months:
Connected my router to the test connection in the master socket
Disconnected all phone extensions
Replaced router with Speedtouch 585V6 (from NetGear DG834G)
Replaced ADSL filter with XF-1E
Here are the current connection stats from the Speedtouch 585:
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 480
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 1.32 / 4.68
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11.5 / 12.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 31.5 / 61.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 18.0 / 15.5
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB /
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 8
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 0
I know my line attenuation is high which is probably the main cause of the issue but would you expect better than my current sync speed? I was hoping for at least 1mb if not higher.
Since switching to the Speedtouch I have also tried using the DMT tool to decrease the SN Margin. However this resulted in severe line instability so I had to switch it back.
I am currently paying for BT option 3 which seems a little pointless if I can barely get a 512k service. I don't know if switching ISP's would help, phoning the help desk doesn't seem to get me anywhere.
Any help would be much appreciated.
Thanks.
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Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but your line attenuation of 61dB is likely to be the problem. :'(
That indicates that you are on a very long line which are much more subsceptical to SNR Margin fluctuations, which will be the cause of your stability issues.
The fact that your SNRM is now at 15.5dB indicates that you are on the highest Max profile in order to stablise the line with a target SNR of 15dB. The default max profile is 6dB (which is what your line will first have been when you got maxed), and this has the unfortunate side effect of vastly reducing the maximum speed at which you are able to connect at. Each step up decreases the maximum speed.
~ How unstable is your line right now?
I'm not sure from those stats, how long the line has been up for and how many errors it tends to rack up.
~ What speed connection was your line on before being maxed and how stable was it back then?
A 61dB line should sync higher than you are seeing, but there are some lines that just cant cope.
There is a point at which Max doesnt work so well on some long lines, and some ISPs will transfer these lines back to a fixed rate product in order to try and achieve some stability.
Unfortunately BT isnt one of the ISPs that will transfer their customers back to a "fixed rate line", since BTw are gradually doing away with this service.
However, there is something available on Max dsl which may help stabilise your line and thats asking if BT can ask BTw to transfer you over to something called "BT IPStream Max - Capped Rate Profile". This option is available in profile 500, 1000 & 2000 which are the equivalent of the old fixed rate products of 512kb, 1Mb & 2Mb. Obviously your line wouldnt handle the "Max Premium - Capped Rate Profile 2000" but it may possibly cope with Capped Rate Profile 1000 (61dB is a bit border line) and BT may be prepared to try you on it.
If not then Profile 500 should work fine... and at least that would five you a steady 512kb connection which is more than you currently have.
Your ISP may not have heard of the Capped rate Product, but it should be available for them to order via the BTw system.
Before doing all that though - it may be worth while grabbing a copy of routerstats and use it to monitor your SNRM. There may be a pattern that emerges that could point to a cause of the times when your SNRM dips - which could be something like heating/lighting or other type of Electromagnetic Interference.
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Thanks for all your advice... I had a feeling that the attenuation was going to be the main issue.
The router had only been up for a few minutes when I grabbed the stats, however the connection is quite stable albeit very slow. i will re-post the stats tonight when I get home as it will have been up for 24 hours.
Prior to being MAX'd I was on a 2mb service which was fairly reliable, I used to get random disconnects but probably only once every month or two. When I was initially put onto the MAX service the connection was totally unreliable, however moving the router to the master socket seemed to improve things.
I suspect you are right in that my line is just not suited to the MAX service. I will run router stats and do some monitoring as you suggest. I am a little confused by SRNM and what would be classed as a reasonable figure on a line with an attenuation of 61db. Is a lower SNRM better? Could you provide a little more information on how this works?
One other thing I forgot to mention is that when I was using the DG834G it used to initially sync at 1.8mb after a reboot, but would then drop to 480k after approx. 10 mins. Does this indicate any other problem with my line or configuration at the Exchange?
Once again thanks for all your advice. I just want to make sure there is nothing else I can change on my router/telephone connection before going back to my ISP (again).
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Once your attenuation sits at 60db or more then max can become tetchy, given the fact you had 2mb running semi reliably sounds as if the snr was initaly good as officialy the threshold for 2mb is 43db loss though if the snr is at 20-30 then you can start adding on some db's although 61 I would have thought is pushing it
snr with fixed speed reads as better the higher the no. target is >9db, any less then your prone to drop outs particualy at around 6db or less, with max it's snrm so the figures read differently so as close to 6 the better. sounds as if a regreade to a 1 )or 2 again if you want) mb service would be youbest reliable option
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>> Prior to being MAX'd I was on a 2mb service which was fairly reliable,
In that case it may be worth asking your ISP if they could trial you on the "Max Premium - Capped Rate Profile 2000" product. TBH you would have to push very hard for this stating that you previously had a 2Mb fixed rate product that works fine and you would like that service restored.
I say push hard because anything over 43dB attenuation is supposed to struggle on the fixed 2Mb rate and BTWholesale have rules which they strictly adhere to.
>> by SRNM and what would be classed as a reasonable figure on a line with an attenuation of 61db.
Very hard to say - all lines are different. Quality of the copper line, local interference, how the line is routed and if it passes anything that may introduce EMI, how many other users are using their connections (crosstalk)... also allow that different routers may report the attenuation differently.
As a rough guide I've produced a maximum adsl speed calculator (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/max_speed_calc.php). Its based on average lines with a Target SNRM of 6dB.
Its not gospel, but its possibly recognised within the adsl community as about being the most accurate for average lines, but I must stress it is only a guide.
Also bear in mind it calculates for rate adaptive technology.. and that fixed rate technology works slightly differently.
>> Is a lower SNRM better? Could you provide a little more information on how this works?
Higher SNR Margin is better. Also note that I also talk about Target SNR and whilst the 2 are related they are different things. Fixed rate adsl doesnt utilise a Target SNR. - See Line Stats - Attenuation and SNR (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/linestats.htm).
>> was using the DG834G it used to initially sync at 1.8mb after a reboot, but would then drop to 480k after approx. 10 mins.
hmmmm - not sure perhaps local interference affecting it (eg monitor etc)... but could also be a large amount of errors racking up when the line was in use caused the line to become more unstable. The router goes through several alarm states before it will actually loose sync, depending on the severity of the issues at each stage.
Also its normal to see SNRM lower in the evenings when more people are at home using their connections.
If a subsequent resync picked back up at 1.8Mb, I say that it is a fair bet that symptom is a "local issue" (internal wiring/router/EMI) rather than anything at the exchange end.
[edit]
Ezzers reply wasnt there when I started mine - but Ive posted anyhow.
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Thanks for all your advice, I really appreciate it.
Just for your info here are the stats from my router tonight, I assume that the number of errors is acceptable? The connection is very stable.
Uptime: 1 day, 0:40:51
Modulation: G.992.1 Annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 480
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 13.20 / 42.27
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11.5 / 12.5
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 31.5 / 61.0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 18.0 / 14.0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB /
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 2 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 48 / 42
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 2 / 2
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 2 / 2
I will talk to BT about switching back to a fixed service and see how I get on...
Thanks.
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your error are fine, between 1-5 mins then on rate adaptive up to 1000 hec/crc errors, 14000rs. fixed speed or without interleaving 60-100 crc/hec errors over the same time is the acceptable level unless all the errors come in clumps/bursts
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Thats actually very stable..
In fact I would normally expect to see way more FEC errors than that.
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Well I have just spent 1hr 25 mins going round in circles inside the BT Broadband phone system...
I spoke to 2 different people on the "options team" who stated that I could be switched back to a fixed product but then subsequently managed to lose my call to someone who didn't have a clue what I was calling about!
Anyway the 3rd person on the "options team" has said that I can be switched back to a 2mb service and is going to call me back at 2pm tomorrow.
I'll let you know what they say...
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Good luck and fingers crossed.
Like I say - be prepared at one point if they say they cant do fixed lines anymore since they only provide on Maxdsl, and just in case be ready to respond with the phrase "BT IPStream Max - Capped Rate Profile 2000"
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Just an update on what is happening with my ADSL max problems...
Having spent many hours on the telephone to BT broadband and being told by several people that I could be transferred back to a fixed rate product I failed to actually get to speak to anyone who could action it. I have now obtained a MAC key from BT and I'm in the process of transferring to another ISP who offer both MAX and fixed rate products. I even had to complain to get the MAC key as it had now arrived within 5 days!
The new ISP has recommended that I try their MAX product first, they will quickly transfer me to the fixed rate product if it proves unsuccessful. Their reason for this is that their line tests show that they can provide a 3-4mb service (I am highly doubtful of this). I am now waiting for the switch over to see what happens.
One thing I have noticed is that the mapping engine on Samknows.com shows some pretty weird statistics for my local area. It suggests that I am 1920m from the exchange and can get a 1.5mb service, however other properties which are 2300m from the same exchange can get a 3mb connection! Can anyone explain this?
Thanks,
Mark.
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They maybe able to provide faster speeds than BT, depending on the ISP i suppose?
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Thats a shame - about the same time I mentioned the Maxcapped profile to you - I also mentioned it to someone else the same day.. and hes now afaik happy syncing on a higher and stable capped rate line.
>> It suggests that I am 1920m from the exchange
Thats straight line distance... BTw cables hardly ever go straight line - they are more likely to follow roads. - line checker (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/adslchecker.php).
The maximum rates come from the BTw data base.. and are usually based on the average sync speed in your area.
>> their line tests show that they can provide a 3-4mb service
Which ISP? AFAIK nearly all of them access the BTw database for their information.
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The new ISP is UKOnline, they still sell a fixed rate 2mb product as well up to 8mb MAX. I assumed that the information on samknows.com wasn't straight line but the actual line length.
Your line checker states 1.9k direct and 3k by road. The main problem is that there is a big hill between me and the exchange and the road (and cables I assume) go round it!
I'll just wait and see what happens with UKOnline... I have no idea where they got the 3-4mb figure from. I have no doubt I will end up switching to the fixed rate product at some point.
Thanks,
Mark.
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The new ISP is UKOnline, they still sell a fixed rate 2mb product as well up to 8mb MAX. I assumed that the information on samknows.com wasn't straight line but the actual line length.
Your line checker states 1.9k direct and 3k by road. The main problem is that there is a big hill between me and the exchange and the road (and cables I assume) go round it!
I'll just wait and see what happens with UKOnline... I have no idea where they got the 3-4mb figure from. I have no doubt I will end up switching to the fixed rate product at some point.
Thanks,
Mark.
Correct me if I am wrong Kitz, but don't UK Online use ADSL2+?
If so this is most likely how they are promising faster speeds!
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My exchange is not LLU and does not have ADSL2+ so I wouldn't have thought so... I'm not expecting 3-4mb, 1-2mb would be much better than my current connection!
Mark.
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Correct me if I am wrong Kitz, but don't UK Online use ADSL2+?
If so this is most likely how they are promising faster speeds!
They do indeed and it could account for a little more speed,
however not at 61dB. adsl2+ means a higher attenuation and higher frequencies are used so whilst there may be a little bit, I wouldnt expect too much.
The biggest freedom with UKO is that that are one of the few (only) ISPs in the UK that do something called SRA (Seamless Rate Adaption) if your router supports it. So theres no messing about rebooting trying to pick up a higher sync speed or profile etc.. and of course no IP profile, that could hold back a variable long line.
I'm still not sure about how adsl2+ would perform on that line though. If worst comes to worse then if they are offering a fixed rate profile on adsl1 if it doesnt work out then go for it.
The other bonus is that their CS (or at least the ones that Ive spoken to) do seem pretty knowledgeable.
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TBH Mark - with your attenuation I would estimate your line to be nearer the 4km region.
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Well my ADSL connection was switched over to UKOnline today. After reconfiguring my router it initially connected just over 2mb. It held this speed for at least 5 mins, however when I checked it an hour later it was back down to 768k.
I quickly spoke to the UKOnline tech support (who I have to say are a world apart from BT) and they said to wait for 10 days whilst the MAX service stabilises. If the problem still persists after the 10 days then I need to call them back so that they can progress it. Sounds fair enough to me...
I am not sure how this normally works but would you expect to see the downstream connection speed on the router change over the 10 days or would you expect this to remain constant and only the IP profile would change?
Thanks,
Mark.
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>> My exchange is not LLU
>> it initially connected just over 2mb. It held this speed for at least 5 mins, however when I checked it an hour later it was back down to 768k.
Unfortunately the same technology behind it as BT, but the consolation is UKO CS do seem a lot more knowledgable than frontline BT.
>> they said to wait for 10 days whilst the MAX service stabilises.
Thats correct - your line could be going through a new 10 day training period - during which time the ISP cant do anything much. The only thing that is at the back of my mind is that this was a bog standard IPStream >> IpStream migration which will have occured remotely. Did you happen to notice by any chance what time of day (or was it overnight) that the migration occured.
Some new stats may be useful too. - ideally the first sync up with UKO would have been the most telling.
If you can recall them, and if your SNRM was 6dB (default) then you are going through a brand new training period.
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I can't remember the original stats (apart from the downstream connection speed). Here are the current ones:
Uptime: 1 day, 19:20:10
Modulation: G.992.1 annex A
Bandwidth (Up/Down) [kbps/kbps]: 448 / 736
Data Transferred (Sent/Received) [MB/MB]: 15,02 / 207,74
Output Power (Up/Down) [dBm]: 11,5 / 14,0
Line Attenuation (Up/Down) [dB]: 31,5 / 61,0
SN Margin (Up/Down) [dB]: 17,0 / 19,0
Vendor ID (Local/Remote): TMMB / ALCB
Loss of Framing (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Signal (Local/Remote): 1 / 0
Loss of Power (Local/Remote): 0 / 0
Loss of Link (Remote): 0
Error Seconds (Local/Remote): 16 / 0
FEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 22.583
CRC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 68
HEC Errors (Up/Down): 0 / 56
I have not rebooted the router since I reconfigured it (as instructed by UKO).
Whilst my current SN margin is 19db I have been monitoring tonight with routerstats and it seems a little erratic. It has varied between 9db and 20db. I have attached a graph which show the dips. Would you expect this during the training period or could it be some sort of interference? I have read that it will fluctuate at night but I am not sure what amount is considered "normal".
Thanks,
Mark.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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Good heavens, that's really quite weird. It's nothing to do with the 'training period'. It looks as though some source of major electrical interference is being switched on and off at roughly ten-minute intervals. Is there anything in your house which follows that pattern?
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I'm glad it's not just me that thinks this is a bit strange :)
There is nothing I can think of that would cause this. It doesn't seem to tie in with the central heating/thermostat but that is due to switch off any minute so I will see what happens over the next hour. Could it be something in a neighbour's house or is more likely to be in my own?
I am going to try and borrow a portable AM radio with a digital tuner over the weekend to see if that helps me track it down...
Mark.
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Is the interference evident all the time throughout the day?
It definitely looks like something cycling on and off. It may be a fridge/freezer?
And yes the source may be from a neighbours property.
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Well, it has been doing it right through the night! I also thought about the fridge/freezer but eliminated this last night. Am I right in thinking that if I see the SN margin drop it would suddenly rise again if I powered off the faulty device?
I am beginning to think it might be in a neighbours house.
Mark.
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Am I right in thinking that if I see the SN margin drop it would suddenly rise again if I powered off the faulty device?
Yes, that's basically it.
Have a read of this page (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/rein.htm) which may help with tracking it down.
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I quickly spoke to the UKOnline tech support (who I have to say are a world apart from BT) and they said to wait for 10 days whilst the MAX service stabilises. If the problem still persists after the 10 days then I need to call them back so that they can progress it. Sounds fair enough to me...
Hi - apart from your noise/interference issues I thought you were switching for to a 'fixed rate' service in an attempt to improve things? I didn't think there was a 10 day training for a traditional fixed package???
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Youre correct - there isnt...
I may be wrong, but I'm sure UKO said they would try him on Max first just to give it a go, but if it didnt work out they would be prepared move the line over to fixed.
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Kitz - yes that is correct. UKO have initially switched me over to their MAX product. If it isn't successful then they will migrate me to their fixed rate 2mb product.
We have been away over this last weekend so I have not made much progress in tracking down the source of the interference. I have just checked routerstats again and it is still dropping every 10-15 mins. I now have a portable AM radio so I will give this a go later. It does sound like a fridge or a freezer could be the culprit but I don't think it's mine.
If I am unable to track down the source would it help if I plugged the router into a mains conditioner?
Thanks,
Mark.
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Just spoke to UKO tech support and their diagnostics have now shown a fault on the line. They also saw the changes in the downstream noise margin. They have now raised a fault with BT wholesale to get the line fault fixed.
Mark.
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Nice one
- good luck - let us know how it goes.
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UKO tech support just called this morning to say that BT wholesale had rejected the fault as the line is still within the 10 day stabilisation period :(. They also said that they could not find any fault on the line! UKO did say that this might be true as their system always detects a fault when a line is within the 10 day period.
BT confirmed that the BRAS profile is due to be set in 12 hours time, UKO have asked me to wait a couple more days to see if the noise margin settles down (and speed increases). If not then they will raise another fault with BT. Based on the recent comments in this thread I don't think much will change when the 10 day period is over, I'll just have to wait and see...
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TBH I cant see the speed increasing.. The 10 day training period is all about setting something called the Maximum Stable Rate (MSR) + FTR. Things that can occur during this 10 day period such as increasing the target SNR or switching on Interleaving can also (and do) happen during the whole of the time youre on Max.
The 10 days is also to give the DLM chance to increase the Target SNR and switch on Interleaving if necessary in order to stabilise the line at the beginning.
Theres more information How DSLMax works (http://www.kitz.co.uk/adsl/maxdsl2.htm) if youre interested.
It is true that they cant report a line fault during this period, to give the line the best chance to settle.
However, the huge fluctuations that you saw in your SNRM graphs arent normal and they do indicate some sort of REIN, are you still seeing the same thing?
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Kitz, thanks for the explanation. I also agree that nothing is likely to change when the 10 day period is over, apart from the fact that BT will hopefully start to investigate :).
Yes I am still seeing exactly the same SN margin fluctuations. Just checked routerstats it is was at a steady 21.5db for 14 mins then dropped down to 9.5db for about 12 mins then increased back to 19.5db. It does this 24hrs a day. I have pretty much ruled out everything I can think of in my own property and have also tried an AM radio without much success (not entirely sure I know what to listen for...).
I am going to wait a few days to make sure that the 10 day period is well and truly over and I will go back to UKO. Hopefully I can get them to request that a specialist REIN engineer visit.
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I have a bit of an update...
I read a thread in another forum regarding REIN where an openreach engineer described how he often drives around the local area near a suspected REIN fault in his van with the radio tuned to 612AM. I tried this tonight and think I may have located the source.
I waited for the SN margin to drop and then went for a drive in the car. As I got near the entrance to our housing development I noticed a significant change in the background noise on the radio. I kept driving and the noise disappeared. I turned around and drove back to the source and realised I was parked outside a pumping station! I went home and started routerstats by which time the SN margin was back to normal. I asked my wife to watch the laptop whilst I drove back to the pumping station and phoned home from my mobile. As soon as my wife saw the SN margin drop I could hear the same background noise start on the radio, the noise even sounds like a pump. The noise got quieter the further I drove away from the pumping station. At least it's starting to make sense now... running 24 hours a day and starting up periodically!
Only problem now is what BT can do about a pumping station generating REIN. Not quite as easy to fix as a fridge/freezer :D. I guess I may have to go back to the fixed rate service which is less susceptible to the interference.
Mark.
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Pumping stations have been mentioned before in the past as a source of noise.
Have you asked if your neighbours are also being affected... the more of you that stand together on this the better.
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I know my next door neighbour has ADSL and I'm planning to speak to him tonight. I will ask him if I can run routertstats against his router to see if he is experiencing the same problems.
Do you know if anyone has been able to resolve an issue with a pumping station causing REIN? I am not sure whether it could be a fault with the pumping station or whether it is normal for it to produce this level of interference.
Mark.
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Ezzer is our "resident BT specialist" when it comes to REIN problems, so if he sees this he may have some suggestions.
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Thanks Kitz...
One thing I have wondered (Ezzer may be able to answer this..) is whether the noise is picked up directly by the telephone line or my mains supply as it passes near the source. If it is the latter then would an AV quality mains conditioner connected to my router and telephone eliminate the noise on the telephone line? This would assume that it's the ADSL router/telephone than is transferring the noise from the mains supply into the telephone line. Not sure, just guessing really, but if there is anything I can do to eleminate the noise then I would be willing to try it.
Mark.
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AFAIK the noise is picked up on the telephone line itself.
The interference attenuates the adsl signal as it passes past the offending source of noise, which is why the SNRM takes a dip.
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Ok thanks for the explanation.... my 10 day stabilisation period is now over so I'm going to speak to UKO tech support tonight to get another fault assigned to BT.
Mark.
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UkOnline have just called to say BT have now accepted that there are excessive noise fluctuations on my line and are sending an engineer Tuesday AM :). They are planning to check the line from the exchange all the way back to my house.
I'll let you know what happens...
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UkOnline have just called to say BT have now accepted that there are excessive noise fluctuations on my line and are sending an engineer Tuesday AM :). They are planning to check the line from the exchange all the way back to my house.
I'll let you know what happens...
:thumbs:
Good luck with engineer and keep us posted :)
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I need to get a BT engineer to check my line too. Far too much noise on it!
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Well the BT engineer visited this morning and confirmed everything we already know... I have massive fluctuations in my SN margin being caused by REIN. I have to say he was more than a little impressed with the investigation I had already done (thanks to all of you... :thumbs:).
He checked the line from the cab to my house and the internal wiring and said that my line was actually very good (physically at least). With the attenuation and noise margin you get at initial sync the BT test software showed that my line was capable of up to 3mb ;D. Shortly after initial sync at 2mb the line drops and then re-syncs at 800k and the noise margin fluctuates from 22db down 9-12db and back up continuously as shown the previous graphs I have posted.
He fitted an NTE5 faceplate and re-connected all my extension wiring (disconnected by the last BT engineer) and everything is still the same.
The engineer is now going to escalate the problem so that a REIN specialist picks it up. He said there is a specialist in my area who is very good at finding the source so hopefully he will pay a visit in the near future.
I'll keep you all posted. Once again thanks for all your help so far.
Mark.
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That sounds good Mark. I hope that the REIN specialist gets to the bottom of it. :)
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The engineer is now going to escalate the problem so that a REIN specialist picks it up. He said there is a specialist in my area who is very good at finding the source
Good news - just out of curiosity - which part of the country are you in?
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I live in Somerset...
Mark.
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okies thanks for that. :)
I was just wondering, since theres relatively few REIN specialists in the UK.. one of whom frequents this forum
- and I was only being nosey really, to see if you were in his area, but youre not.
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Just when things were going so well I have had an update from UKO tech support...
BT have updated the call simply to say there is nothing more they can do and the speed I am experiencing is all my line is capable of. I can either accept this or have my contract ceased. They have told UKO that they won't accept any further faults for my line.
Having had an engineer visit my house only yesterday to confirm that I have excessive REIN on my line (as clearly shown by routerstats) and that a specialist needs to visit to detect the source I simply cannot believe their attitude. UKO are now trying to phone them back to ask them to escalate the fault to the right team but aren't confident that they will.
I really don't know where to go with this... I could ask UKO to switch me to their 2mb fixed rate product, but BT's attitude has made me so angry that I am more determined now to get the REIN issue resolved.
Ezzer - if you are reading this I really need your help!
Mark.
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Woops missed the comments from the 31st, soz.
I'm just wondering how the last job an engineer was closed, the reason for this is thta any fault will have a "clear code" which states what and where the fault was. Theres a huge list, there was a briefing sent out with the broadband clear codes, the REIN ones were missed off so many arn't aware of them. With the right code the the job details as I understand gets highlighted to the REIN group who will raise a new job and get it pinned to the local REIN guys. The last couple of ones I had I go due to the engineers calling our control so they could intervene and pin me the job manualy as they wern't aware of the clear codes. Otherwise it comes down to what the ISP wants to do based on the job notes. I'm thinking the're not familiar with REIN as it's an unusual fault.
Your locating the noise apparently comming from the pumping station seems quite likely to be the source, What you've done to locate it and tie it up with your drops of service is spot on. unfortunately if thats the case then there's nothing bt can do directly. I'm not sure what exactly happens here but I assume the REIN SFI desk would ger in touch with offcom as they have the power to act against any unauthorised or interfering forms of radio emmission. If I had this fault then it's a case of my identifing as best I can that the source is causing an issue with your dsl, then the Ofcom guy has kit which can directonaly locate noise soruces across a wide range of frequencys and they have the power to interceed. I think this covered only by ofcom as otherwise we could have all sorts of bodies running round demanding all sorts of kit is shut down.
REIN can come from a single source as a point, or broadcast it back down the mains so all the local wiring is acting like an antennea. on the flip side all or part of the telephony can act as a reciving antennea from the cableing up to and including the router. and some times it's a case of one particular set up by fluke being in tune with the noise so one person in a locality suffers where as the others nearby much less so.
The only other things would be a change in e-side cable (never had a REIN cured by this) chnage in d-side (same result here) and an rf3 filter fitted, very occasionaly helps, (hence I have a test nte5 where I've built in an rf3 via a 8pole/double throw switch as a quick way of checking).
I would say keep herranging your isp to raise a REIN issue so those channels can be followed, otherwise I know you can contact ofcom your self with radio interference issues although I'm not sure how they will react in the case of a broadband fault and may refer you back to your ISP. There was somehting that came up localy, nothing to do with dsl but a chap was sure that his key fob wouldn't lock the vehicles within 50m of his house after a bt aerial cable was recently installed nearby, he got ofcom to send one of thier specialists over who located the source as the trickle heater in his motor home. Apparently he got a £314 bill for the call out from ofcom
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Thanks Ezzer...
I am more than happy to accept that BT may not be able to do anything to correct the fault causing the REIN. All that I am interested in at this stage is identifying it. I 'm quite happy to deal with the owner of the faulty equipment (Wessex Water if it's the pumping station) myself if needed and then escalate to Ofcom if I cannot get it resolved. However I don't really want to go to Wessex Water without further investigation from BT, after all it could be one of the houses next to it.
I have no idea how the BT engineer closed the call but when UKO call me back I will query that with them. It's really annoying, particularly when the engineer was chatting to me yesterday about the local REIN specialist and how only a few weeks ago he found a CCTV device taking out ADSL to six houses just 10 miles from where I live. I just need someone to arrange for this chap to pay me a visit... all I seem to have managed to get is a threat to cease my ADSL contract and the refusal of any further faults! The fact that my router initially syncs at 2mb and then disconnects and re-syncs at 800k as soon as the REIN kicks in should at least tell them something is wrong.
Thanks for your advice, if you can think of anything else I should tell UKO to try and get this to the right team please let me know.
Mark.
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Ezzer... just thought of another question...
Based on what you have said about how REIN can be broadcast is it worth me plugging my router into a mains conditioner? I have asked this already in this thread and the consensus of opinion was that this wouldn't help... I suspect this correct but could you just confirm? I would need to buy/hire such a device but I would be willing to try it if you thought it might workaround the issue.
Thanks,
Mark.
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I belive the REIN team are part of the BOU which is within BT wholesale. The ISP needs to get wholesale to raise a fault specifialy as REIN. The only problem with broadband faults is by the time the engineer gets the job the note are usualy non existant or gobbledigook, and we don't get to see any engineers notes from a previous fault. We all end up having to contantly talk to each other about jobs wev'e been on more so than pstn faults to give each other a heads up.
The kit we use is an ordinary portable MW radio as well as the normal van radio as I get close to site, and something called a 444b which in effect is a radio which listens to everything from 1khz-1mhz. the one I got hasn't a directional aerial and can be useless in a lot of cases because I pick up radio5 across most of the county from a couple of transmitters which drowns out any REIN in the back round (although it did the trick when I had the fault Supercooper had a string on).
Otherwise it's case of tieing the noise with the change in stats. I fell into REIN out of curiousity. A customer told me, "Don't know what you can do unless bt kit you with an air rifle. Whenever the security light switches on at the show home over there I loose broadband." I heard about using a radio, tuned in the van radio and parked up by the show home and stuck a bit of paper on the end of my measuring rod we use for checking the height of cables. covered the pir and low and behold Buzzzzzzzz. sure enough sync dropped at the same time. Mind you there's plenty of times when I've picked up a distinct noise, located and switched off the source only for the problem to still be there. So picking up a distinct noise dosn't mean its the problem.
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Ezzer... just thought of another question...
Based on what you have said about how REIN can be broadcast is it worth me plugging my router into a mains conditioner? I have asked this already in this thread and the consensus of opinion was that this wouldn't help... I suspect this correct but could you just confirm? I would need to buy/hire such a device but I would be willing to try it if you thought it might workaround the issue.
Thanks,
Mark.
I'd doubt it although any thing is possible so I won't say 100% not. I have had success if it's interference fed back via mains by moving nearby plug adaptors eithe to a new position relative to the router or just by moving it at 90 degrees to the original position.
Had one just over a month ago. Turned out it was the customers router which generated the REIN. problem was everyone who tryed testing could,t get sync either. I moved the 4 way power adaptor at 90 degrees and my modem sync'ed. Later a colleage asked "How the hell are you supposed to spot that ?". The first time I had one like that it was pure fluke.
It's made me think about how emf works. when you consider how wer'e bathed in emf all around us and how broadband works and the extreme performance thats extracted out of it It's amazing it works as well as it does
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It's made me think about how emf works. when you consider how wer'e bathed in emf all around us and how broadband works and the extreme performance thats extracted out of it It's amazing it works as well as it does
I must admit - me too. Particularly when a 60dB line only receives 1 millionth of the original signal strength that was sent out from the dslam. :o
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Mind you there's plenty of times when I've picked up a distinct noise, located and switched off the source only for the problem to still be there. So picking up a distinct noise dosn't mean its the problem.
What a wonderfully rewarding job you must have :no:
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It's great when you can pinpoint exactly what the problem is and sort it. ;D
Definately not when you and up walking away wondering if what ever the problem is is going to reappear after you've gone because it wasn;t doing the effect while your there. End up tweaking thinks in a hope you may have made things unvenerable to the problem >:(
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Just has another call from UKO and it seems that today's fiasco was all caused by a bit of an oversight by the agent acting for BT Wholesale...
UKO tech support escalated the issue again and discovered that in actual fact a separate case had been initiated for another engineer visit. UKO have no visibility of the case so don't know if it's for a REIN specialist but it sounds hopeful. The engineer is coming tomorrow. Apparently I don't need to be home but I might be here just in case.
UKO tech support are going to update me as soon as they hear back from BT Wholesale.
This is turning into something more like Eastenders than an ADSL fault... ;D
Mark.
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Well the BT engineer has visited, he wasn't the REIN specialist (they call them PTO's) but has pinpointed the source.
It is the pumping station as we suspected :). I showed him the stats from routerstats and also how my line syncs at 2mb/12db, disconnects when the REIN kicks in and then re-syncs at 800k.
When the SN margin dropped he went off in his van and said he could hear the noise as soon as he turned out of my road into the road where the pumping station is. He waited outside the pumping station and could even hear the pump winding down as my SN margin increased. Whilst he was there a lady came out of a house opposite the pumping station to return some equipment that another BT engineer had left on a previous visit. He asked her about her broadband and she said it was constantly disconnecting! He now suspects that all 30 houses in our development are being affected in some way.
He explained that pumping stations are connected to the phone system for remote monitoring. It is possible that this is how the interference is entering the phone system. He is now escalating the call to the REIN desk so that they can deal with Wessex Water. He is not expecting it to be fixed quickly but something should get done.
A big thank you to everyone who has contributed to this thread... I have learn't loads about ADSL these past couple of weeks. I will continue to update the thread with any updates and I'll be sure to post my stats once it's sorted ;D
Thanks,
Mark.
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That sounds quite plausible Mark. Good news. :)
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Thanks for the update.. in a way its good news that others are also seeing it too and means the more chance of it being escalated.
Please keep us informed how its going
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small update...
When I initially discovered the source on my car radio I did drop an email to Wessex Water, not really expecting much to happen. By coincidence they replied this afternoon stating that they were going to investigate and have independently asked BT to check the telephone line to the pumping station. All good news...
Mark.
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looking good :)
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I decided to canvas the local area on Thursday night just to let people know about the potential issue with the pumping station. I had a feeling that there were probably a number of people suffering and struggling to the get the problem diagnosed by their ISP or BTw.
So far I have been contacted by 8 houses out of 32 all with similar or worse symptoms to my own. I have no idea how many out of the 32 have ADSL but I suspect that some people aren't necessarily aware that they are being affected. I guess it depends on their expectations and perception of broadband. One of the houses that has contacted me also informed me that the local electricity board had stated in the past that the pumping station was the likely cause of some long term problems with our mains supply (light flicker, power cuts). I hadn't mentioned this previously as I had not linked the two things together.
I also had an update from UKOnline. A BT Proficiency Testing Officer is now coming on Tuesday. Hopefully he will confirm the source and then deal with Wessex Water if it is the pumping station at fault.
I'll let you know what happens after the PTO has been here next week.
Mark.
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>> with similar or worse symptoms to my own.
interesting.
Yes please do keep us informed. Good luck.
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I have still not heard anything from BT but I think they were near the pumping station yesterday doing some work. Wessex Water have been in contact with me to say that they think the source of the interference is due to a new pump they installed. They are still doing their investigation and I have not heard that they have done any remedial work yet but I have also heard reports that they were at the pumping station yesterday.
It seems as though some work has been done (by either BT or Wessex water) as the SN margin fluctuation has improved significantly. My line now initially syncs at 2.3mb / 12.5db but I am still seeing periodic drops by approx 3db and then back up to 11/12db. I am not sure what level of SN margin fluctuation is considered "normal"... is 3-4db too much? My sync then gradually reduced to 1.5mb.
Can anyone advise on what level of fluctuation is normal? I have attached a graph from routerstats which shows the fluctuation I am seeing now, my sync is still 2.3mb as I have also just rebooted the router.
Thanks,
Mark.
[attachment deleted by admin]
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There is obviously still some fluctuation there - but that is well within normal parameters for your length of line.
That sort of fluctuation may not even be due to the pumping station and may just be 'general household stuff'. IIRC your previous fluctuations were 10dB+ which was high.
2-3dB is perfectly acceptable. :)
If it keeps like that - then hopefully within a few weeks your Target SNR will drop and you will then be able to get higher sync speeds.
- In fact over time it may even drop down to the default (6dB).
If I were you I'd monitor it for a while longer, but looking from that graph now, Its does look like some work has been completed and its soooo much better than it was before.
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Thanks for the advice... yeah it is much better :)
I guess I was just a little concerned why the sync speed dropped from 2.3mb down to 1.5. I wasn't running routerstats at the time so I don't know exactly why it happened. I am going to leave it running now for a few days and see what happens.
My IP Profile is still at 750k, I guess this will take a few days to sort itself out...
Mark.
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What is interesting about that graph is the "step" nature of the change, does that continue over longer periods?
It's almost as if there's a background level and then something cuts in (pumps?) for a few minutes causing increased interference.
If the interference stays lower your target SNRM will hopefully change and your speed increase, but that will take some time.
FWIW my own SNR graph from routerstats looks completely different. Little wiggles over a short period but a day-by-day pattern of interference ramping up around dark and reducing late at night with a minimum (best margin) from about 9am to tea-time. No sudden steps at all, though I do get occasional very short bursts of interference that can cause a resync (or 2 or 3); there's something nasty in my neighbourhood but it's not sustained.
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I think the fact that I am still seeing the "steps" in the graph suggests that the pumping station is still causing interference, but as Kitz has pointed out the +/- 2-3db I am now seeing is much better than the +/- 10-12db I had before!
I really need to wait until I hear from BT or Wessex Water to find out what exactly was done yesterday and whether there is still more work to be done.
Thanks,
Mark.
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Should point out that if BT Openreach locate an interference source from a 3rd party then the're not exactly allowed to tell you. It's more a case of "located the source of the problem and it's in hand/being investigated/followed up" (or what ever)
Which bears the question in the fact that under the data protection act your in your rights to see all the notes a company like bt would have on your account which of course will include the notes from any engineers who've worked on your line ?
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under the data protection act your in your rights to see all the notes a company like bt would have on your account which of course will include the notes from any engineers who've worked on your line ?
No, you misunderstand the DPA. It's about personal information not technical data not related to you personally.
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Our notes do appear on customer records which are avalable regardless wether they're technical or not. It's due to the fact as an engineer I could have access to your line, your property with all the security implications that entails including any potential comment someone might make on any records which you have the right to see.
This is in part why if you see an engineer working nearby and you have a problem on yours were not permiteted to work on your line as a specific fault unless we have an actual reported fault pinned to us regardless if you poped up and said can you just have a look and sort so and so out (unless it was a case of something being a danger to the public)
It's not a case of being jobworth but a case of accountability. Who has had access to where your lines have run. If we get spotted say up a pole with a dp totaly unrealted to anyjobs pinned to us then we had better have a damm good proveable explanation.
Thats also why if any one either enters a note or even looks at your account details within the bt group then it always leaves a footprint. Say for instance if I was working of a pc and inadvertently mistyped a number and went into a sensitive account by accident, I would have to call bt security and explain myself pretty quick as the would know.
It's the first thing that got drummed into me when I started with bt and it's taken hellishly seriously which I find very reassuring
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I'm not too worried about BT telling me the source of the interference... just what they did yesterday (if anything). It's entirely possible that the improvements are down to something which Wessex Water has done and not BT. I won't really know until Monday when I get an update from both companies.
Line still sync'd at 2.3mb :) however BRAS profile still at 750k :(. I have read in another thread that rebooting the router a few times will help force the BRAS profile to correct itself. Is this true or am I best off leaving it along for a few days...
Thanks,
Mark.
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I would leave it to convince the dlm everything is stable, then it's more likely to start changing the settings
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I have read in another thread that rebooting the router a few times will help force the BRAS profile to correct itself
It will probably have the opposite effect, be seen as an error and force the target SNR higher!
A regular, say daily, reboot to take advantage of improving conditions by a higher sync speed is all you need, and ONLY if things are getting better (otherwise just leave it alone).
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OK thanks for the advice... I was planning to leave it alone and let it sort itself out.
Mark.
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Just confirming what the others say - leave it alone as much as possible in this particular instance. (There are times when we do recommend a reboot but the trick is knowing when it works best for what lines).
An occasional reboot should be fine, but the less you mess with it right now the sooner it should recover .
An IP profile increase like yours should recover pretty soon :)
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Checked it this morning and the sync had dropped from 2.3mb to 1.6mb. Not sure what happened, routerstats showed the SN margin dropping to 0 and then back up to 12db at 6:30am.
Do I just leave it at 1.6mb?
Mark.
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>> routerstats showed the SN margin dropping to 0
:'( :'(
What happened one big dip? or gradual decline.
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One big dip... just a sudden drop to 0 and then back up to 12db. It re-sync'd at 1.6mb at the same time.
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That's not real (well it sort of is), it's just Routerstats not getting a sample during the re-sync. ;)
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Yeah I agree.... I have a feeling that the SN margin drop was caused by the re-sync (not sure what caused that though...).
As I am still seeing constant +/-3db fluctuations in the SN margin if re-syncs whilst the SN margin is lower then it connects at 1.6mb, if it re-syncs when it's normal (12-13db) then it connects at 2.3mb. I have just waited for the SN margin to go back to normal and re-sync'd in the DMT tool and it's reconnected at 2.3mb again.
I'm hoping that there is still more work to be done by Wessex Water to correct the REIN being generated by the pumping station, should find out when I speak to them tomorrow.
Mark.
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Had an update from BT today via UKOnline. They have stated that the issue is not yet resolved and they are continuing to work with Wessex Water to fix it. The target date for resolution is now tomorrow.
IP Profile now 1250 so things looking up ;D. Sync still dropping from 2.1mb to 1.6mb for some reason, I'll wait until it's all sorted and see if this is still happening.
Mark.
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Lets hope theres some more news tomorrow.
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Not heard anything from BT or Wessex water yet...
However I did get another re-sync at 6:25am this morning which dropped the sync speed down to 1.6mb. Here is what router stats reported:
Tue 18 Nov 2008 06:23:24, Noise Margin= 12.0, Sync Speed= 2176, 0 days, 11:36:09
Tue 18 Nov 2008 06:23:39, Noise Margin= 7.5, Sync Speed= 2176, 0 days, 11:36:24
Tue 18 Nov 2008 06:23:54, Noise Margin= -8.4294, Sync Speed= 2176, 0 days, 11:36:39
Tue 18 Nov 2008 06:24:09, Noise Margin= , Sync Speed= , 3 401
Tue 18 Nov 2008 06:24:24, Noise Margin= , Sync Speed= , 3 401
Tue 18 Nov 2008 06:24:39, Noise Margin= 13.0, Sync Speed= 1600, 0 days, 0:00:07
I'm trying to work out whether it was a massive change in the noise margin which caused the re-sync or whether the data being reported is just a result of the line dropping for some other reason. Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
Thanks,
Mark.
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Tue 18 Nov 2008 06:23:54, Noise Margin= -8.4294, Sync Speed= 2176, 0 days, 11:36:39
Tue 18 Nov 2008 06:24:09, Noise Margin= , Sync Speed= , 3 401
Thats the strange one really, because your sync speed has increased.
If the drop out was followed by a lower sync speed, then it would normally be the case that your SNRM has decreased to the point whereby you router 'has been forced' to resync to get a more stable speed.
Its very rare to see an auto resync to get a higher speed.
So either the router/routerstats or massive noise spikes all over the show. Whats the SRNM like in between?
Those resyncs are going to be playing havoc with the DLM :/
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I'm not sure the sync speed increased... I thought it decreased! It was sync'd at 2176, disconnected and then re-sync'd at 1600, unless I'm reading the data wrong. I have a feeling that whatever has caused this is completely separate to the other noise issues being caused by the pumping station. It happened again this morning just after we got up and again tonight when we came home from work. Sounds like I might have something else in the house causing REIN :(.
I had an update from BT and Wessex Water today about the pumping station. BT has implemented some form of filtering to reduce to affects of the REIN being generated by the pumping station. These improvements are now allowing me to sync at 2mb, although the REIN from the pumping station is still clearly visible in routerstats it is reduced.
Wessex Water have not started the work on the pumping station yet. It sounds like there is quite a bit of work to do which may take 4-6 weeks to complete.
Mark.
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Sorry if I've misinterpreted. I was looking at the bit I'd highlighted/quoted in my post above.. which seems to show s sync of 2176 and then a resync a bit later at 3401, which does seem to be an increase in speed. ???
At least you know they are still working on a solution.
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I switched back to my Netgear 834G V3 last night and it didn't resync this morning or tonight as it has done for the past couple of days. Early days but it's looking better.
IP Profile now 1750k ;D. Much better than the 350k I used to have. Hopefully it will go up to 2000k at some point, although I am sync'd at 2208kbps at the moment I and I think I need 2272kbps.
Mark.
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you do :/
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Came home from work tonight and spotted some more workmen at the pumping station... checked routerstats tonight and it looks like Wessex Water may have fixed the issue already! See attached graph. Much better than the ones I have posted previously :).
I will wait until they contact me before I celebrate too much but it certainly looks promising. I'm now holding a 2mb sync with a 1750 kbps profile.
Thank you so much for all your help.
Mark.
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Thats good news mark and things now look much more stable.
Is it still holding up?
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I have had a few random resyncs, the longest it has stay connected is 3 days. The pumping station interference also returned for a few days so I don't think they have completely finished the repair work yet.
I have not heard from Wessex Water so I think they are still working on it.
Mark.
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>> The pumping station interference also returned for a few days so I don't think they have completely finished the repair work yet.
:(
Better than it was, but still not right :'(. Is there anyone you can chase to find the current situation?
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Hi Kitz,
Yes I have direct contact details for the operations manager at Wessex Water. To be honest they are being really good about it in the circumstances and I'm more than happy to leave them to it for the time being. He has already told me that he expected it to take 4-6 weeks so it may not be fixed until the end of the year. It sounds like they have quite a bit of work to do...
I will give him a call in a couple of weeks if I don't hear anything from him just to see how things are going. At least I am managing to keep my BRAS profile at either 1250 or 1750kbps, I know many people would be annoyed about this but when you have been used to 350k it's a vast improvement. I haven't seen 200kb+ downloads before in the 4 years that I have lived here :).
Mark.
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okies thanks for the update.. fair enough if they said 4-6 weeks. :)