Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => ISPs => Topic started by: Weaver on July 12, 2022, 02:24:37 PM
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See article at https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2022/07/isp-andrews-and-arnold-plan-cityfibre-based-fttp-broadband.html
Note that the article is inaccurate in saying that AA only uses BT / BTW as a carrier; AA also has made use of the wholesaler TalkTalk Business’ network too for a long time now. And before that AA used both BT and BE.
It would be great if AA could in this way offer an affordable symmetric gigabit FTTP link for domestic users and small-medium businesses rather than the horrifically expensive resold BT dedicated link FTTP services that they offer at the moment.
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I'd love AAISP to use CityFibre, I was actually thinking that would be my preferred backup connection to replace their L2TP, as its somewhat unreliable when Three 5G is having a bad day.
A really basic 100/100 service for example would be appealing.
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So from that article, it seems certain that it’s going ahead. For some reason I don’t understand the mention of limitations (or restrictions) in CityFibre’s reach when it comes to Scotland - very confusing. There was a mention of ‘England’ which could either be correct for some reason, or could be a simple mistake; and I wonder what happened to Wales? (Is Wales just part of England, Henry VIII-style ? Nowadays we so often see stuffy text referring to EnglandandWales over and over.)
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Did you read the comments?
Honestly, it’s not that there’s no love for Scotland! There is plenty!
But the National Access product which we are taking presently only gives us reach in England. We do feel this might change, in time, but cannot promise anything. 100% not a slight; we’d obviously love to be able to deliver services north of the border, and do hope to be able to do so in time.
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Yes, I noticed that, but didn’t entirely understand it. Why is the CityFibre deal’s availability England-only currently, when another poster said that there is already a CityFibre presence in the Central Belt, iirc? Perhaps it’s just badly worded and it’s down to CityFibre expanding their range, nothing to do with AA.
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Seemed pretty clear to me, CityFibres service National Access for some reason is England only at the moment. Which is quite ironic given that I'd associate National to mean whole UK.
I wonder if there is something specific to do with Devolution that means regulatory wise they have to broker deals differently in Wales, Scotland and Northern Ireland?
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Agreed, this use of ‘nation’ is surprising, as you say, and the raison d’ être of the deal is odd, unless you have found the answer.
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Cityfibre seem to have a strange layout in their network.
Manchester seems to be missed off their 'Fibre Cities' section.
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I wonder how quick they can get their first customers connected, as I may have the ability to go with CF sometime this year.
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Looks like CF will be dead last here, Virgin were laying ducting and preparing to install cabinets before OR had finished my neighbourhood.
Its a shame as I would have gotten Zen with them but now presumably wont be able to change for 2 years.
Not that 900/100 is slow mind you, but symmetrical would make remote backups a lot more practical.
I wont be getting Virgin purely as I don't like how they convert to COAX outside the property and part of my plan is to cut down the number of paths for lightening to get in, not to add a new one. When my modem got fried years ago, it didn't hit the phone line, it was only near it.
That said, backup fibre itself is somewhat unappealing compared to how cheap 5G backup costs. So its kinda more likely I would migrate Zen over to CF then see if I can get Broadband Essentials on the OR fibre, as that's the only thing cheaper than Three 5G.
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Well if you have VM working in your area you are one of a lucky few as I dont think they started their main Docsis to FTTP rollout yet?
Openreach I expect will be several years behind CF in my area as they will likely wait for CF to finish, then about 6 months later add it to their planned list like a vulture.
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I'm under the VM expansion, they never did this section of the estate, though nothing official just physically seeing them doing the work.
BIDB still says unknown for VM despite lots of works on there.
CF have tons of work to the far north and east of me but nothing local.
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And it's live:
https://www.aa.net.uk/broadband/home1-cityfibre-services/
1 month term!
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And it's live:
https://www.aa.net.uk/broadband/home1-cityfibre-services/
1 month term!
Interesting. City fibre are busy here in Norwich at the moment, though I've failed to get to speak to anyone about whether they could use the BT duct from the street into our courtyard. Otherwise it's a big job, taking up a big brickweave driveway to access 7 houses.
Is this a PPPoE service also then? (seems so from the note on the page about needing a PPPoE router).
The committed rates of 75/35Mbps seem a bit on the paltry side.
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Yes it appears to be a PPPoE service, on VLAN 911. I was thinking that they might drop the need for PPPoE but apparently not. Indeed, they may as well not have any committed rates :D.
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Yes it appears to be a PPPoE service, on VLAN 911. I was thinking that they might drop the need for PPPoE but apparently not. Indeed, they may as well not have any committed rates :D.
Do AAISP offer any plain IP services? Given PPP allows L2TP and Broadband to terminate on the same equipment, I guess they're going for the simplistic approach.
The price of their Gigabit with 10T quota package is actually pretty good here, makes the 160M look really expensive in comparison.
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Indeed, they may as well not have any committed rates :D.
Though I see AAISP are perhaps pessimistic in this respect as for BT it's 195Mbps, when competitors are offering laws-of-physics-busting 450-700Mbps guarantees.
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Though I see AAISP are perhaps pessimistic in this respect as for BT it's 195Mbps, when competitors are offering laws-of-physics-busting 450-700Mbps guarantees.
They're assuming only one customer per PON is on Gigabit I presume, with everyone else on a very basic service. Though how contention fairs further up the chain I do not know.
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They're assuming only one customer per PON is on Gigabit I presume, with everyone else on a very basic service. Though how contention fairs further up the chain I do not know.
It's interesting though that the guarantee is so much lower than for BTW. Is number of users per PON known for Cityfibre? Or is it because many more Cityfibre customers will likely take the 1G service as the incremental cost is so low?
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It's interesting though that the guarantee is so much lower than for BTW. Is number of users per PON known for Cityfibre? Or is it because many more Cityfibre customers will likely take the 1G service as the incremental cost is so low?
Good question, I mean given Cityfibre are supposed to be using XGS-PON as standard now for new areas and upgrading other areas at some point, it seems odd for them to have less guaranteed bandwidth.
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Pricing less than I expected, basically just a £7 premium over obsolete copper DSL. Even more interesting the 160m option can be had for cheaper than copper DSL. Those not in FTTP areas starting to really hurt now.
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Good question, I mean given Cityfibre are supposed to be using XGS-PON as standard now for new areas and upgrading other areas at some point, it seems odd for them to have less guaranteed bandwidth.
I guess that sort of assumes the 10G doesn't get contented later. I suspect they have many 10G fibres all terminating into one 10G backhaul. It makes it easier for them to fix congestion later as they can just add another one or more 10G backhaul fibres of course, but contention may end up a similar ratio as it would be on 32 properties sharing 1Gig GPON, just now you have 320 properties aggregated together sharing one 10G fibre a bit further in, with congestion happening in an easier to fix place on the net work.
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A&A are just being realistic with the guarantee: most customers will still go on GPON for now, the April 2023 date is when all new network build will be XGSPON, it'll be way longer converting already built. The fibre shared between 32 premises goes into a CityFibre Fibre Exchange and from there CityFibre collect together the A&A customers on that FEX, merge them with others across England and send them to A&A through some 10 gigabit NNIs.
A&A will be expecting no visible congestion between the CityFibre FEX and their own network and will buy more NNIs from CityFibre as needed: even if it weren't standard for them it'll be in the contracts to not let them congest.
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A&A are just being realistic with the guarantee: most customers will still go on GPON for now, the April 2023 date is when all new network build will be XGSPON, it'll be way longer converting already built. The fibre shared between 32 premises goes into a CityFibre Fibre Exchange and from there CityFibre collect together the A&A customers on that FEX, merge them with others across England and send them to A&A through some 10 gigabit NNIs.
A&A will be expecting no visible congestion between the CityFibre FEX and their own network and will buy more NNIs from CityFibre as needed: even if it weren't standard for them it'll be in the contracts to not let them congest.
It still doesn't explain the difference between the guarantees for CF vs BTW - 195 vs 70 is quite a difference. Do Openreach actually stand behind a 195 number and so A&A just pass that on? Or is this the difference between the more symmetrical CF offering and BTWs asymmetrical arrangement?
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It's interesting though that the guarantee is so much lower than for BTW. Is number of users per PON known for Cityfibre? Or is it because many more Cityfibre customers will likely take the 1G service as the incremental cost is so low?
BTW (that's BT Wholesale) don't necessarily guarantee 195, 450 or 700 (or any figure the provider quotes you).
BT guarantee 450 or 700Mb/s depending on your exchange. They do that off their own backs. They have absolutely no way to enforce it. If your speed falls below their guarantee all they can do is ask their supplier (BTW and Openreach) to look in to it and failing that they pay you compensation or let you leave your contract.
Openreach guarantee providers 110Mb/s downstream on the 160, 330, 550 and 1000/115 products.
So when BT guarantee 700Mb/s to a customer they themselves are guaranteed 110Mb/s from Openreach.
Only the 2 higher upload business tiers from Openreach (500/165 and 1000/220) have a higher guarantee of 220Mb/s.
AAISP are likely giving a higher guarantee on Openreach vs Cityfibre because they trust they can meet it.
They have next to zero experience of Cityfibre. You may find their CF guarantee increases over time.
Number of users per PON is the same on both networks.
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Openreach guarantee providers 110Mb/s downstream on the 160, 330, 550 and 1000/115 products.
Hypothetically, is there enough capacity to provide everyone 110Mb/s concurrently? IIRC there are up to ~30 customers sharing 2.4Gb/s.
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Yes it appears to be a PPPoE service, on VLAN 911.
The VLAN might not be required. Giganet no longer require it[1]. Of course, PPPoE is still required.
[1] https://www.giganet.uk/faq/how-to-use-my-own-router/
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Hypothetically, is there enough capacity to provide everyone 110Mb/s concurrently? IIRC there are up to ~30 customers sharing 2.4Gb/s.
No they can't, you are right there. They are just providing a guarantee based on real world experience rather than theoretical minimums. If there is a case where a GPON is so full of customers on higher speed packages they are seeing considerable congestion, I suspect they may just split the 32 and half the number on the GPON, well that is my assumption, not sure if there is any insider info we can learn from anyone here. :)