Kitz Forum
Chat => Tech Chat => Topic started by: jelv on January 11, 2022, 05:37:50 PM
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[Moderator note: This post and those that follow have been split-off from Weaver's "Placement of NTU and related FTTP gubbins (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,26687.msg447351.html)" topic.]
I have a APC Back-UPS CS 350 that just has my modem, NAS box and cordless phone base station. It runs for way longer than 15-30 minutes.
I recently bought a replacement battery for it - £18.99 - I don't consider that expensive.
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I have a APC Back-UPS CS 350 that just has my modem, NAS box and cordless phone base station. It runs for way longer than 15-30 minutes.
I recently bought a replacement battery for it - £18.99 - I don't consider that expensive.
That's strange as the official runtime graph suggests it should only do around 30 minutes on a 50W load.
Also look at the rating, its a 116A/h battery so if it was outputting only 12V it could run for most of a day at 50W.
Its also highly recommended to use a true sine wave unit on modern PSUs as modified sine waves can interfere with the power factor correction.
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I was curious when you said 116Ah, and price was quoted as £18.99 (a lot of battery for that price!).
I just checked spec in detail ,the UPS states 116 power-volt-hours, so assume Wh, the battery says 7Ah.
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I have never had a UPS unit I purchased run even close to advertised run time, maybe I am unlucky on defective/aged batteries I dont know.
Personally I think mobile is enough for emergencies in populated areas, if a populated area does not have indoor coverage then there should be a legal prod towards mobile providers to get that sorted. That leaves areas like properties in the middle of nowhere, which I guess BBU would be a need. I have a cheap UPS in my living room, it advertises 45 minutes run time for 10w load, which probably means in reality 10-15 minutes.
EE are finally doing some mast work after lots of prodding as their 5G coverage is outdoor only for me where I live under 1 mile from the city centre. Its an issue unless the phone is rooted to force it to 4G as it keeps jumping from 4G to 5G and back indoors causes loss of connectivity.
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I was curious when you said 116Ah, and price was quoted as £18.99 (a lot of battery for that price!).
I just checked spec in detail ,the UPS states 116 power-volt-hours, so assume Wh, the battery says 7Ah.
Darn spec sheets, I obviously missed that. It did puzzle me that the difference seemed a lot bigger than it should be.
Personally I think mobile is enough for emergencies in populated areas
My mum wouldn't even know how to connect to WiFi, never mind how to turn on tethering on her phone, nor the cost of doing so. So everything has to be automated and work should I not be around to fix it. Granted not an issue during the pandemic as I never leave the house.
But as the router is run off a normal UPS due to having a 12v 5A PSU, the run time would be rather short anyway. Thus why I'd rather like a beefier 12v UPS, although then there's the darn switch that HAS to run off a normal UPS so its not an easy problem to solve with my setup.
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Confusing, this UPS thread is now being discussed in two places, I will continue here :)
What about a Eaton 3S mini, will do 12v and 19v, replaces the PSU for the device:
https://www.eaton.com/content/dam/eaton/products/backup-power-ups-surge-it-power-distribution/backup-power-ups/eaton-3s-mini-emea/eaton-pqed-dpq-3s-mini-datasheet-low-en-us.pdf.pdf
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That looks a great unit. I have commissioned Eaton AC UPS's on many occasions and found the devices great.
Do you know cost ? :-\
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https://www.box.co.uk/3SM36B-Eaton-3S-Mini-UPS_3934648.html
~£40
Video review at bottom.
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Very nice, could be a rather larger battery than my powerinspired unit?
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For reference, the ones I were talking about before https://amzn.to/3Gr885J and I also stumbled onto this (https://norbain.com/p/power-connectivity/psus/1224vdc/dantech-electronic-engineering/12v-5a-dc-or-24v-2-5a-dc-power-supply-with-ups-and-monitoring) which is quite interesting.
Honestly the huge problem for me is disposing of used batteries, the nearest recycling center is a bus journey away and is not designed for foot traffic at all.
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After a bit of research I decided on one of these:
https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Back-UPS-850VA-230V-USB-Type-C-and-A-charging-ports-8-BS-1363-outlets-2-surge-/P-BE850G2-UK
The power draw when batteries are fully charged in between 2-3W, as there is a relay inside that connects power in to power out, so there is minimal efficiency issues when there is power (just the standby charging @ 2-3W). If power fails, the UPS will provide the mains power on battery, and with a light load will be very inefficient. Hopefully this will not happen too often, so I'm assuming my overhead using this UPS is 3W, which works out at less than £5 per year using 100% renewable energy from my supplier.
It has a couple of USB sockets that are also on UPS, so could be useful for anyone who has a pi etc?
HTH!
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I avoided those kind of units as they're all stepped-wave rather than pure sine wave and I'd read that can be bad for any PSU that has power factor correction, which is most modern switching PSUs.
Then again I'd read good reports about CyberPower UPS and the one I have on my gaming PC the USB ports stopped working and the power LED failed. The one on the NAS threw a fit when the power went out under high-load as it couldn't handle the sudden load change. To be fair, I never intended to get it near peak load and I moved the PC off it that pushed it. But its still bad that it "should" have handled the load but immediately triggered overload and shut down.
Also the weird thing is at high load it says "low battery" (over USB, on the unit itself it says nothing is wrong) but at low load it says its fine, when it shouldn't have a difference as its in power save mode that doesn't use the battery.
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I avoided those kind of units as they're all stepped-wave rather than pure sine wave and I'd read that can be bad for any PSU that has power factor correction, which is most modern switching PSUs.
According to website, its designed for "Battery Backup & Surge Protector for Electronics and Computers", so I'm assuming will have been tested with modern PSUs. Also has a 'Equipment Protection Policy' up to £50k for equipment plugged in that gets damaged, subject to T&C. APC is reputable brand. Based on all of that, I feel confident enough it wont damage devices plugged in.
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Because of concerns about the quality of waveform output, I’ve put the output of my UPS through two different mains filters, one Tacima, one Belkin (~£40 ! :o ) before the input to the three modems. I’m thinking about using those powerinspired Lion small UPSes (the new H model) with each of the modems, but that’s going to cost me ~£150 :o so I’ll have to save up. (Telly died before xmas so Janet shelled out sizeable amount of cash in January sales, so no spending atm.)
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According to website, its designed for "Battery Backup & Surge Protector for Electronics and Computers", so I'm assuming will have been tested with modern PSUs. Also has a 'Equipment Protection Policy' up to £50k for equipment plugged in that gets damaged, subject to T&C. APC is reputable brand. Based on all of that, I feel confident enough it wont damage devices plugged in.
Its a tricky one, I read around and lots of people said APC is overpriced junk but obviously that proves nothing. But there are constantly lots of "reputable" brands that suck, they get a positive reputation then ride it all the way to the bank while cutting costs (thinking Duracell as one off the top of my head).
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Hi all,
I bought an APC BV1000I last year, see https://www.amazon.co.uk/APC-Schneider-Electric-Easy-UPS-Uninterruptible/dp/B07KZ9LTG7
It has IEC socket outputs on it, so I use extension leads to convert them to UK 13A sockets.
It says that it does 17 minutes of battery backup at 120W load, but since I have only my router, DECT base station, and Grandstream HT812 ATA on it, then I should get a lot more than 17 minutes out of it.
We had a time last year when mains power was going on and off, and it proved its worth by keeping the DECT phones and router going, so WiFi and phone calls were maintained.
Now I have ATA and another DECT base station on it, then it is working well for those also.
Over £100 price, but since it does surge protection and Automatic Voltage Regulation (AVR) against brownouts as well then I am very happy with it.
Cheers,
Tony
[Moderator edited to simplify the above link.]
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It does seem quite short, but that’s about the same runtime (very roughly) as I used to get in practice from my APC UPS.
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It does seem quite short, but that’s about the same runtime (very roughly) as I used to get in practice from my APC UPS.
It does Weaver, and I have definitely have over 1 hour out of it during a power cut since I bought it last year.
My router takes 10.4W maximum, so if only that was on it then I should get about 204 minutes, i.e about 3 hours.
Cheers,
Tony
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Remember that UPS are inefficient running on battery at low load, say 10w on a 1000w UPS is 1% load, and efficiency probably less than 50%, so my estimate would be upto 1.5 hours :)
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In my experience marketed usage time on UPS is a fairy tale. As a rule of thumb I drop 50% off and may be approaching reality.
UPS market in the UK right now is horrible, I originally thought it was part of the global silicon crisis, but people have been posting on TPU in america they can buy a 900w cyberpower pure sinewave for $150, so it seems either the UK retailers are scalping or the UK has a supply problem.
On the battery life. So 600w capacity, 17 mins run time at just under 25% load, max charge.
In my experience the higher the load the less efficient (probably at very low loads as well like craig siad), and also run time at below 50% charge is much worse than above 50% charge. The run time seems lower than usual, but is ok if its accurate.
Does it have a usb port to allow monitoring via software? Thats my only issue with this model you got as otherwise for UK pricing the value is good.
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UPS market in the UK right now is horrible, I originally thought it was part of the global silicon crisis, but people have been posting on TPU in america they can buy a 900w cyberpower pure sinewave for $150, so it seems either the UK retailers are scalping or the UK has a supply problem.
I seem to recall the UK has stricter BS standards (a good thing) than the equivalent US standards for approval of mains connected equipment, so cost/time/hassle for manufactures would be far greater for UK specific products. And possibly cheaper to produce a 110v UPS vs 220v, in terms of components?
The APC I use is:
https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Back-UPS-850VA-230V-USB-Type-C-and-A-charging-ports-8-Schuko-CEE-7-outlets-2-surge-/P-BE850G2-UK
This has USB port for monitoring.
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Most APC’s that use poweshoot software allow for a runtime calibration. That’s fairly accurate in my experience.
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I seem to recall the UK has stricter BS standards (a good thing) than the equivalent US standards for approval of mains connected equipment, so cost/time/hassle for manufactures would be far greater for UK specific products. And possibly cheaper to produce a 110v UPS vs 220v, in terms of components?
The APC I use is:
https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/products/APC-Back-UPS-850VA-230V-USB-Type-C-and-A-charging-ports-8-Schuko-CEE-7-outlets-2-surge-/P-BE850G2-UK
This has USB port for monitoring.
Thanks shame its an extra £50, I have one lined up for my UPS (also circa £150 but has onscreen LED as well). Cyberpower branded. Probably would trust APC more as I have used a stepped sinewave APC before which worked fine.
When my older APC battery died I ditched the entire UPS, wish I kept it now and just got new battery.
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Thanks shame its an extra £50
I wouldn't buy direct from APC, can be got for £50 cheaper:
https://www.comms-express.com/products/apc-be850g2-uk-back-ups-850va/
LCD display can be useful though, to check mains voltage, runtime etc. Re pure sinewave, my understanding is this is only required for an induction load, eg a induction transformer, motor, etc. Any modern switch mode PSU will be fine on a stepped wave. This must be the case because they specifically say they are suitable for computers and electronic equipment.
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I am not bothered about pure sinewave, just want to be able to auto shut down the NAS when battery is below certain level which requires the ability to monitor it.
Thanks for the link I will check it out later today. :)
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I wouldn't buy direct from APC, can be got for £50 cheaper:
https://www.comms-express.com/products/apc-be850g2-uk-back-ups-850va/
LCD display can be useful though, to check mains voltage, runtime etc. Re pure sinewave, my understanding is this is only required for an induction load, eg a induction transformer, motor, etc. Any modern switch mode PSU will be fine on a stepped wave. This must be the case because they specifically say they are suitable for computers and electronic equipment.
I read that modern switch mode PSUs (particularly PCs) its bad to use anything but pure sine wave as stepped wave doesn't play nice with their power factor correction.
There seems to be a lot argument about if that is true or not, personally I figured just not worth taking the risk.
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I read that modern switch mode PSUs (particularly PCs) its bad to use anything but pure sine wave as stepped wave doesn't play nice with their power factor correction.
If that was the case the UPS manufacturers wouldn't be able to advertise that they are compatible, eg from APC website
"Battery backup and surge protection for computer systems, home networking, external storage, gaming, home servers and other electronics"
https://www.apc.com/shop/uk/en/categories/power/uninterruptible-power-supply-ups-/computer-and-peripheral/N-a4lk5l
From Eaton website:
"The Eaton 3S Gen2 range offers affordable and reliable UPS for home and small business. This offline UPS provides surge and power protection for internet gateways, desktop computers, and other critical electronics."
https://www.eaton.com/gb/en-gb/catalog/backup-power-ups-surge-it-power-distribution/eaton-3s-gen2-ups.html
I'm sure these consumer UPS are fine connected to modern electronic devices, but I probably would use it with one of these with a line transformer :)
http://www.righto.com/2019/11/understanding-and-repairing-power.html
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I read that modern switch mode PSUs (particularly PCs) its bad to use anything but pure sine wave as stepped wave doesn't play nice with their power factor correction.
There seems to be a lot argument about if that is true or not, personally I figured just not worth taking the risk.
My stepped sinewave APC was fine on my PFC PSU in my PC.
Bear in mind the marketing materials for pure sinewave show a very large stepped sinewave that doesnt accurately represent stepped sinewave products, at least not the one's typically purchased for computer use.
As a side note I discovered the UPS I brought for my modem could work on my NAS, its 360w, I thought was much lower, but I am still keen on replacing it as it has no monitoring or line interactive capability.
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That's true, I think both PSUs and modified sine wave UPS have likely improved to mitigate the issue. There's just so much conflicting information and urban legends. ;)
I've seen some claims that it causes coil whine too, which seems utter BS as coil whine happens in the secondary side due to the high switching frequencies, I can't see how the low frequency AC would make any difference to that as it will have already passed through smoothing capacitors and low frequency wont make them whine.
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Yep there was no oddity on or off the battery, off battery the power is not stepped anyway, is from the mains passed through with only corrections for the voltage regulation. The stepped is on battery, the UPS did make a buzzing noise on battery (which neither of my cyberpower units do), but there was no noises or oddities from the PC or anything else attached to it. In addition APC units do automated battery run tests so every so often it switches to battery for about 5 seconds automatically as well never a problem at all.
Of course one SKU been fine doesnt mean every other SKU will be, so I suppose its a little gamble buying from a different family of products, but I think the evidence would be over the internet if people had issues with these units on PFC PC's.