Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: GigabitEthernet on December 21, 2021, 05:25:10 PM

Title: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: GigabitEthernet on December 21, 2021, 05:25:10 PM
Before I start, this is not a complaint and it is something I don't much care about but I am curious as to the reasons behind it.

My stats are as follows:

(https://i.imgur.com/Yf6wJ6k.png)

I was expecting to see a download speed of around 70Mbps but the most I seem to be able to get is about 60, can anyone explain why this might be?

I'm on TalkTalk.
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: broadstairs on December 21, 2021, 06:29:30 PM
I'm no longer on TalkTalk but I found my line capped around 60000kbps.

Stuart
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: Reformed on December 21, 2021, 08:52:21 PM
How are you measuring it?
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: meritez on December 21, 2021, 09:12:08 PM
Your sync looks similar to mine, Talktalk seem to leave me on a 4db profile:
Code: [Select]
Sync Status In Sync
Downstream Speed (MBPS) 76.0
Upstream Speed (MBPS) 20.0

What's your upstream sync at?
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: GigabitEthernet on January 04, 2022, 04:43:11 PM
Sorry for the delay. Used a variety of speed test sites wired into the router. And 60Mbps is about the maximum.

Sync speed is now 79999 so the maximum and I am still capped at 60.

Any ideas why?
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: GigabitEthernet on January 04, 2022, 04:43:44 PM
Your sync looks similar to mine, Talktalk seem to leave me on a 4db profile:
Code: [Select]
Sync Status In Sync
Downstream Speed (MBPS) 76.0
Upstream Speed (MBPS) 20.0

What's your upstream sync at?

20Mbps and download is now 79Mbps (sync speed), what speed can you achieve?
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: GigabitEthernet on January 04, 2022, 05:01:28 PM
Okay update, now been able to get up to 67Mbps but this still seems like it's capped? Any idea, should be able to get into the 70s no?
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: meritez on January 04, 2022, 08:31:51 PM
20Mbps and download is now 79Mbps (sync speed), what speed can you achieve?

I can achieve the full 80/20, though Talktalk seems to cap me at 76/20.

I'm moving to a Gamma BTW SoGEA on the 11th as I'm sure Talktalk are stopping at a 4db profile when my line is capable of 3db.
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: Edinburgh_lad on January 04, 2022, 10:01:38 PM
Okay update, now been able to get up to 67Mbps but this still seems like it's capped? Any idea, should be able to get into the 70s no?

Does 3Mbps really matter that much?
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: meritez on January 04, 2022, 11:09:15 PM
Does 3Mbps really matter that much?

Think you are missing a 1, 13Mbps makes a difference.
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: GigabitEthernet on January 04, 2022, 11:38:02 PM
Does 3Mbps really matter that much?

13? No it doesnít but Iím more curious as to why this is
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: Edinburgh_lad on January 05, 2022, 12:06:04 AM
13? No it doesnít but Iím more curious as to why this is

Yes, apologies for the missing 1.

Anyway, have you tried different filters? With my ADSLNation filter I get a better connection rate (higher) than with Openreach's own MK3.
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: Weaver on January 05, 2022, 01:08:52 AM
When you test one filter against another, you have to do repeated tests to account for the natural changes in sync rate due to BTís DLM. See https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,15905.msg295889.html#msg295889
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: j0hn on January 05, 2022, 09:48:42 AM
Yes, apologies for the missing 1.

Anyway, have you tried different filters? With my ADSLNation filter I get a better connection rate (higher) than with Openreach's own MK3.

That would change the sync rate. They are already synced at the package maximum.

It's the throughput that is the issue. No filter is changing that.
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: GigabitEthernet on January 05, 2022, 11:32:15 PM
Yes sync is already maxed out. I just find it curious that I seem to be capped just under 70Mbps
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: chris3234 on January 13, 2022, 11:38:23 AM
Yes sync is already maxed out. I just find it curious that I seem to be capped just under 70Mbps
you will not ever get 100% of sync speed as download speeds it dosnt work like that at lest some oof it is used by the overheads in mx experence its around 5-10% so your only a few mb sort of full speed possible a bit more if you have ginp or interleaving enabled
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: tiffy on January 13, 2022, 12:58:57 PM
Have you ever established what your line DS BRAS profile is?

The normal way of checking this is via BTw performance checker:
https://speedtest.btwholesale.com/
Proceed to additional diagnostics and enter phone number after the speed test is performed.
(Note, speed test results are notoriously inaccurate on this checker but BRAS profile should be authentic)

Or via mouselike.org BRAS checker:
https://windows.mouselike.org/be/index.asp?DoAction=BrasChecker

However, from memory, these suggestions may not work on Talk-Talk provided VDSL service lines, perhaps other TT service users can advise further.
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: burakkucat on January 13, 2022, 03:41:05 PM
However, from memory, these suggestions may not work on Talk-Talk provided VDSL service lines, perhaps other TT service users can advise further.

Your memory is correct. Neither of those utilities will work for a circuit defined by a TT telephone number.
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: meritez on January 13, 2022, 04:26:28 PM
TalkTalk's on network speed tester is https://www.supportal-test.co.uk/
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on January 13, 2022, 04:37:07 PM
For reference, when synced at the full 79.995 Mb/s / 20.000 Mb/s you only get throughput of around 74Mb / 17Mb max.

I will agree you should be getting more than 60Mb though, which as someone else mentioned could very well be your line profile is wrong and up to Talk Talk to sort out.

I can achieve the full 80/20, though Talktalk seems to cap me at 76/20.

I'm moving to a Gamma BTW SoGEA on the 11th as I'm sure Talktalk are stopping at a 4db profile when my line is capable of 3db.

That's interesting as I've never seen above 74Mbit down.
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: j0hn on January 13, 2022, 05:23:33 PM
That's interesting as I've never seen above 74Mbit down.

I'm sure he means his sync doesn't go above 76Mb, because the DLM is stopping at 4dB instead of trying 3dB.

That's certainly not a Talktalk limitation (or a limitation any ISP can have) but possibly just his lines DLM history.

It's certainly possible to get above 74Mb/s throughput on FTTC though.
With fastpath on a full 80Mb sync the BT IP profile is usually 96.79% of the sync speed. That gives an IP profile of 77.43Mb.
You can get 77Mb/s throughput with that.
With Retransmission Low the IP profile is 96.69% of sync.

With either of those you should be able to manage throughput of 76mb/s.

Retransmission High gives IP profile between 91-92%.

There's been quite a few threads over the past couple years where users have been getting IP profiles around 88% but nobody ever knew the reason why.
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: tiffy on January 13, 2022, 05:44:51 PM
TalkTalk's on network speed tester is https://www.supportal-test.co.uk/

So, is there any way of finding what the DLM BRAS profiles are on TT provided VDSL-2 service which as far as I know use the OR/BTw FTTC infrastructure as per any other ISP, unlike their POTS/ADSL service where TT have a substantial LLU presence in most major exchanges?
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on January 13, 2022, 06:09:31 PM
With either of those you should be able to manage throughput of 76mb/s.

Retransmission Low gives IP profile between 91-92%.

There's been quite a few threads over the past couple years where users have been getting IP profiles around 88% but nobody ever knew the reason why.

It must be the latter as I turned off QoS recently on pfSense and its still capping out at 74MBit.  The same router pushes 500Mbit over 5G though obviously no PPP overheads there (at least not on pfSense, not sure how data works on mobile these days).

I do seem to recall pfSense performed worse than a direct connection to the modem on Windows though, haven't checked that in a while.
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: Reformed on January 13, 2022, 09:23:35 PM
Reminder that TalkTalk Retail doesn't use PPP, Ethernet all the way.
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: meritez on January 14, 2022, 12:24:19 AM
Reminder that TalkTalk Retail doesn't use PPP, Ethernet all the way.

You mean IPoE not PPPoE for FTTC?

Their system states this:
Code: [Select]
Authentication Types
Full Network - Full Network Authentication does not require a Username or Password in the Customer's router. Authentication is done purely by using the Network ID from the MSAN/DSLAM.

Network - Network Authentication requires a Username in the Customer's router, but does not require a Password. Instead the Network ID from the MSAN/DSLAM is used to authenticate the Customer.

Password - Password Authentication requires a Username and Password in the Customer's router.

NonManaged - Authentication details are held off the TalkTalk network. TalkTalk authenticate at a realm level (e.g. @3rdpartyISP.net) and the authentication is then passed onto the 3rd party.

I would guess the Full Network one is the IPoE one, the Password one must be a PPPoE connection, and NonManaged is TalkTalk Business Wholesale partners like Zen, Shell, Post Office etc?

What would Network be, PPPoE where the username is correct but the password does not matter?
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: Weaver on January 14, 2022, 07:22:04 AM
J0hn wrote:
> Retransmission Low gives IP profile between 91-92%.

@J0hn - shouldnít that be "High", not "Low" ?
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: j0hn on January 14, 2022, 01:45:45 PM
J0hn wrote:
> Retransmission Low gives IP profile between 91-92%.

@J0hn - shouldnít that be "High", not "Low" ?
Yes. Edited my post.
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: j0hn on January 14, 2022, 01:53:19 PM
You mean IPoE not PPPoE for FTTC?

IPoE/DHCP for FTTC (both VDSL2 & G.Fast) and FTTP. Only residential customers though.
IPoE being IP over Ethernet.

Their system states this:
Code: [Select]
Authentication Types
Full Network - Full Network Authentication does not require a Username or Password in the Customer's router. Authentication is done purely by using the Network ID from the MSAN/DSLAM.

Network - Network Authentication requires a Username in the Customer's router, but does not require a Password. Instead the Network ID from the MSAN/DSLAM is used to authenticate the Customer.

Password - Password Authentication requires a Username and Password in the Customer's router.

NonManaged - Authentication details are held off the TalkTalk network. TalkTalk authenticate at a realm level (e.g. @3rdpartyISP.net) and the authentication is then passed onto the 3rd party.

I would guess the Full Network one is the IPoE one, the Password one must be a PPPoE connection, and NonManaged is TalkTalk Business Wholesale partners like Zen, Shell, Post Office etc?

What would Network be, PPPoE where the username is correct but the password does not matter?

Pretty much yes.
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: burakkucat on January 14, 2022, 03:20:18 PM
Reminder that TalkTalk Retail doesn't use PPP, Ethernet all the way.

You mean IPoE not PPPoE for FTTC?

That is my understanding of what Reformed has typed and, as a user of a TalkTalk consumer/domestic/retail (call it what you like) service delivered over the Openreach FTTC infrastructure, that is the case.
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: burakkucat on January 14, 2022, 06:06:33 PM
Irrelevant, off-topic, posts have been removed.
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: GigabitEthernet on January 14, 2022, 06:31:21 PM
Difficult to say if I am on re-transmission high as my TalkTalk router doesn't tell me that but even on that I should be able to achieve just over 70 which is still 10 more than I can actually achieve now?
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: GigabitEthernet on January 14, 2022, 07:38:29 PM
So I did a bit of Googling and somebody suggested turning the router off for half an hour.

Did that and I am now getting above 70, so it looks like something was stuck.
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: GigabitEthernet on January 14, 2022, 07:40:00 PM
And am now syncing at 80000 rather than 79999, that won't be significant though.
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: RealAleMadrid on January 14, 2022, 07:54:10 PM
@GigabitEthernet  Not many get to the ultimate sync speed. Even adslmax would be pleased with that. ;D
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: g3uiss on January 14, 2022, 08:28:23 PM
@adslmax would never be happy  :lol:
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: GigabitEthernet on January 14, 2022, 09:42:44 PM
To be quite honest, I was quite happy with it at 60, just wondered if there was a technical reason. I was quite happy with 50 at home too.

Glad I've got to the bottom of it though, thanks all for your help.
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on January 14, 2022, 09:43:21 PM
@adslmax would never be happy  :lol:

Can we not drift into making fun of people with mental health problems please?!
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: kitz on January 15, 2022, 01:37:16 AM
Can we not drift into making fun of people with mental health problems please?!

What you may not be aware of is inappropriate posts that have since been removed.  If he hadnt made those posts then the ensuing comments may not have happened either.



Whatever way I am not a happy bunny regarding several of todays posts.  It's 2 way and to be perfectly frank both parties are as bad as each other when you start making personal comments in each other's threads to derail it.

This situation has been brewing for a while.  Moderation can be a hard task when you try to be impartial and other forum members may not be aware of the full circumstances surrounding moderation and what action has been taken.   It's not always helpful to suggest we do this or that, when you may not be aware of the full circumstances of any other events that may have happened.

We have always been sympathetic towards members with various mental health or learning disabilities, possibly more so than some of the other BB forums.  However that too requires mutual respect & recognition of what is and is not socially acceptable. Having mental health problem is not an excuse to do what you want.   It doesn't make for a pleasant atmosphere if one person(s) start using it as an excuse to stretch the limits when it comes to socially acceptable behaviour.  Mental health problems do not give you a do what you want card... nor does it mean you can take advantage of the good nature of other forum members.   
Title: Re: Download speed is lower than I would perhaps expect?
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on January 15, 2022, 10:22:07 AM
You are correct, I clearly missed those posts.  But as they were deleted that's even more reason to not to poke the bear, so to speak.

I very much appreciate the moderation style of this forum.  The fact we can drift off topic, casually chat and the threads simply get split (rather than the ban-hammer many forums use) makes it a pleasant place to visit every day.