Kitz Forum
Broadband Related => Broadband Technology => Topic started by: snadge on November 23, 2021, 10:55:01 AM
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Hi Guys and Gals :)
I have found new computers with 2.5Gbps Ethernet ports, can anybody explain this strange speed? (usually factors of 10/100/1000/10,000) - As I learned on my other thread that BT uses 2.5Gbps on the backhaul for every 32 customers on FTTP, now I saw a program that said they can now use different 'wavelengths' sent at the same time (multiplexed), where each 'wavelength' could be used for each customer. Am I right in thinking they already use that technology just to get the 2.5Gbps bandwidth? - just I wondered if these 2.5Gbps NIC's were put in place ready for when the time comes that different wavelengths are used and we may be able to draw 2Gbps each?
again this is just me thinking out loud, and not saying anything in concrete.
It is probably just for those who get slightly over 1Gbit, in which a faster than 1Gbit NIC & Router is needed, as I've seen some in London offering 1100Mbps down and 100Mbps up..?
I thought it was pretty smart on BT's side to choose that magic 900 number - due to most devices with LAN's now are 1Gbit, and achieve 94-95% of the bandwidth after overheads - so 940Mbps MAX on a 1Gbit NIC -well done BT, when you have other FTTP ISPs selling services that require 2.5Gbps/10Gbps NICs and Routers. 2.5Gbit NIC must be cheaper to make than 10Gbit NIC.
cheers
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No, there are two new(ish) standards for ethernet over copper at 2.5 and 5 Gbps. These work iirc over existing cabling over modest lengths, I think, again, can’t remember. This has been an opportunity for mfrs such as Cisco to make WAPs with 2.5 Gbps or 5Gbps copper ports on them instead of requiring bonded dual 1Gbps links as they were doing. This is because some of the high end business WAPs have become embarrassingly fast, with for example dual radios (like my old ZyXEL).
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As I learned on my other thread that BT uses 2.5Gbps on the backhaul for every 32 customers on FTTP, now I saw a program that said they can now use different 'wavelengths' sent at the same time (multiplexed), where each 'wavelength' could be used for each customer. Am I right in thinking they already use that technology just to get the 2.5Gbps bandwidth? - just I wondered if these 2.5Gbps NIC's were put in place ready for when the time comes that different wavelengths are used and we may be able to draw 2Gbps each?
GPON has 2.5Gb/s down and 1.25Gb/s up shared between everyone on a splitter. That's a single OLT port, shared between up to 32 customers (Openreach usually cap this at 30 customers).
Openreach can also run XGS-PON over the same fibre.
XGS-PON is 10Gb/s down and 10Gb/s up.
So in the future Openreach can run the 2 different PON technologies on the same fibre.
That means they could sell a single customer 10Gb/s symmetrical without it affecting the GPON bandwidth of the other 29 users.
There's very very little XGS-PON live on the Openreach network. Only a few lines from a single trial.
That's somewhat different/unrelated to 2.5Gb/s NIC's.
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NBASE-T technology supports rates greater than 1 Gb/s that are needed by advanced wireless technologies such as 802.11ac.
The introduction of protocols that provide higher data transmission rates is often associated with new categories of cabling, however NBASE-T specifies two new data transmission rates of 2.5 Gb/s
and 5 Gb/s that will take advantage of much of the installed base of Category 5e and Category 6 cabling at lengths of up to 100m.
https://archive.nbaset.ethernetalliance.org/wp-content/uploads/2016/08/NBT_CablingWhitePaper_082916.pdf
So basically, it was about solving the problem of NOT having to upgrade cabling to get higher speeds.
There are also other issues such as 10Gbit transceivers need a lot more power so can't be made into USB devices, not a problem for NBASE-T.
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Hello.
The 2.5 Gb is the speed that hits your ONT.
The OLT on the other side of the fibre knows which service level you've purchased so throttles your download and upload to the correct level.
Your ONT receives all the downstream traffic for everyone on the split but cannot decrypt the traffic intended for others and will discard anything not addressed to you anyway.
The OLT will only send a maximum of the 1G you're subscribed to in data addressed to your ONT per second.
The ONTs receive permission from the OLT to send data upstream, so the OLT will give your ONT enough time on the upstream to send 115 Mb/s and no more.
The capacity is split between all the GPON devices in timeslots. Time Division Multiplexed Access.
The OLTs have both 10G and 1G optical connections to service providers. No copper for anything besides a management port.
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On the strange Ethernet speeds the copper carries RF, radio frequencies, just as ADSL and VDSL do. The older cabling isn't certified to handle 10 Gbit over 100 meters due to the bigger RF spectrum / broader frequency range needed to carry the data. VDSL went up to 17 MHz, G.fast 106. 10 Gbit needs 500 MHz with crosstalk mitigation that existing cable didn't have.
2.5G fits into 4 pairs at 100 MHz - the rated capacity of Cat 5e.
5G fits into the 4 pairs at 200 MHz - the rated capacity of Cat 6.
If you have a look at WiFi speeds you'll note that the 2.5G and 5G speeds seem a good match for access points, and you'd be right. They are a big driver alongside datacentre, however I'm seeing a ton of use of SFP+ NICS and switch ports so a combination of top of the rack aggregation, some of it over DACS or fibre when more than gigabit is required seems to be the sweet spot.
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I think its market segmentation, they dont want people using consumer boards in datacentres and the like, so try to not match as many features as possible.
2.5 is probably enough for people to be happy on gigabit internet services, NAS connectivity etc. Consumer use cases.
Kind of like why we use m.2 instead of u.2 for NVME drives.
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I think also 10Gb was very expensive, so 2.5Gb and 5Gb was brought in as a cheaper option (but not by much), I doubt it has very little, if anything to do with broadband speeds. My server board actually has 2.5Gbe, but I'm using a 10Gb SFP+ card and fibre back to the switch.
I run my network here between my main PC's at 10Gb, using good quality CAT5E that I installed over the last 19 years. On good quality cable it should work up to about 30 meters or so, longest length I've run it over was 25 meters, plus 3 patch cables, so getting on for 28 meters. This was the two sockets in my office, linked at the patch panel.
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I think also 10Gb was very expensive, so 2.5Gb and 5Gb was brought in as a cheaper option (but not by much)
I wouldn't say not by much.
Typical retail price for a 2.5Gbit card is about £20, typical price for 10Gbit is £97.
Yes you can find them cheaper used or by looking hard, but you also have to consider most of those are PCI 2.0 x8 cards when anyone with a GPU need PCIe 3.0 x4 or x1 to avoid throttling their GPU slot.
Also an 8 port 2.5Gbit unmanaged switch costs around £160, an 8 port unmanaged 10Gbit costs £310.
So upgrading all 8 clients to 2.5Gbit including the switch costs £10 more than the 10Gbit switch alone.
2.5Gbit total £320
10Gbit total £1086
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Funny enough I feel still happy with a 1gbit LAN. If 2.5gbit was only slightly more expensive I would upgrade but those switch prices are too unattractive for me, even 1gbit NAS access is ok for me.
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Yes, it's all interesting stuff, I'm liking what's possible coming in the future with all the new tech mentioned in the previous posts (and learning it all I enjoy!), and what i saw with the multi-coloured 'wavelength spread' over the EMI as 'one per user' - or it's its probably old news and been drawn into gathering the spec we get now instead! The one I was watching was about the tech that may be being used in the undersea cable, that was 100,000Gbps or something like that - it may have been used for that only, but it was a great watch! I can't remember the name. I've seen a ton of videos!
but I feel a bit for Weaver who has to wait Five bloody years for FTTP in his current situation, doesn't he fall under B4RN? - I feel his/hers/their pain, 3 bonded lines for 2.5Mbps! it does make you realise how lucky you/we are, because I'm also single, on my own, so all the bandwidth is mine, and I understand that most of you have families on Wi-Fi (mobiles & IoT) and gaming on LAN, and so when the bandwidth hits the router it is shared amongst them too, so I know some of you on this forum could even have working connections even at fairly average speed brought to a halt!!! I've seen it happen at BOTH my sisters & many others. I fixed one, only to 3-4Mbps ADSL from 256Kbps on Talk Talk by removing the ring wire (a long time ago, and a long cable from the exchange, 5km or over I'm sure). The other sister i sorted by telling her she needs to up her bandwidth from 4Mbps using ADSL and get on Plusnet VDSL 40/10 (which she did and sorted it all).
Yes it makes one think!
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Clarification, it’s 7.5 / 1.2 Mbps. (Upstream combined figure should be better than that even, but some speed testers only report 0.9 Mbps combined, which is to do with out-of-order packet delivery or apparent jitter, or something. Can’t understand it, as the Firebricks are fundamentally broken, since the FB6000 units at AA’s end achieve highly efficient downstream combined figures, it’s just upstream ie my FB2900, not AAs’.)
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Clarification, it’s 7.5 / 1.2 Mbps. (Upstream combined figure should be better than that even, but some speed testers only report 0.9 Mbps combined, which is to do with out-of-order packet delivery or apparent jitter, or something. Can’t understand it, as the Firebricks are fundamentally broken, since the FB6000 units at AA’s end achieve highly efficient downstream combined figures, it’s just upstream ie my FB2900, not AAs’.)
Well, from what I know from HDMI signalling, it could be due to the sheer length of the pair, causing 'out-of-time' packets (possibly even in the legs somewhere along the route, made worse), or most likely dropped (also) and a high CRC count has given? am I right?
Am I also right in saying is it the Firebrick alone that handles the 'load-balancing' too?
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There are Firebricks at both ends, my end and at AA. They handle the bonding, where all IP traffic, even one single active TCP connection’s traffic is split up so that it’s triple speed; and my Firebrick handle’s the upstream, AA’s handle the downstream. Some people use the term load-balancing to mean a situation where you have to have multiple users or multiple TCP connections active to see the benefit.
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There are Firebricks at both ends, my end and at AA. They handle the bonding, where all IP traffic, even one single active TCP connection’s traffic is split up so that it’s triple speed; and my Firebrick handle’s the upstream, AA’s handle the downstream. Some people use the term load-balancing to mean a situation where you have to have multiple users or multiple TCP connections active to see the benefit.
Makes sense at such speeds if TCP is used in that manner for much lower speeds
- load-balancing would be like one of our fellow Kitzens 'triple header' (2x900 + 1x500 = 2300Mbps on Openreach) - ha in fact I've just made a connect, he probably KNEW that it was a 2500Mbps on the backhaul, and probably was first on his pod and decided to suck it dry haha - brill
a punch in the gut to you, sorry :-\
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Funny enough I feel still happy with a 1gbit LAN. If 2.5gbit was only slightly more expensive I would upgrade but those switch prices are too unattractive for me, even 1gbit NAS access is ok for me.
Having a 2.5 gbit link to my NAS has changed my usage to be honest. Lightroom libraries are a lot quicker to work with and full size images load a lot quicker. It's also usable as a location for some Steam games now whereas before it was a bit ropey for that.
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Having a 2.5 gbit link to my NAS has changed my usage to be honest. Lightroom libraries are a lot quicker to work with and full size images load a lot quicker. It's also usable as a location for some Steam games now whereas before it was a bit ropey for that.
For me its being able to use the AI upscaler straight off the NAS drive, remux using MKVmerge without having to remote into my NAS to get a good speed, generally I just move around large files a lot and even the HDDs can hit 220MB/s. Also I can move my Steam library between my laptop and desktop if I don't feel like waiting for games to download.
The NAS is connected over 10Gbit though, so that no single client will make it unresponsive. For example, I removed the HDD out of my mums PC so she would save all files directly to the drive in the NAS so I can easily backup everything important from a single location (neither of us could remember to backup her files otherwise). If it was only Gigabit that wouldn't be practical as it would stall her access to the SSD while I was moving files around the HDDs. This way if were accessing different drives on the NAS, its unlikely to slow each other down.
Also once I have FTTP, that alone will be able to max out Gigabit. I wouldn't want a download to the NAS to exhaust all bandwidth so that accessing it would slow the download. I already sometimes pull files to the NAS at 600Mbit from 5G.
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For me its being able to use the AI upscaler straight off the NAS drive, remux using MKVmerge without having to remote into my NAS to get a good speed, generally I just move around large files a lot and even the HDDs can hit 220MB/s. Also I can move my Steam library between my laptop and desktop if I don't feel like waiting for games to download.
The NAS is connected over 10Gbit though, so that no single client will make it unresponsive. For example, I removed the HDD out of my mums PC so she would save all files directly to the drive in the NAS so I can easily backup everything important from a single location (neither of us could remember to backup her files otherwise). If it was only Gigabit that wouldn't be practical as it would stall her access to the SSD while I was moving files around the HDDs. This way if were accessing different drives on the NAS, its unlikely to slow each other down.
Also once I have FTTP, that alone will be able to max out Gigabit. I wouldn't want a download to the NAS to exhaust all bandwidth so that accessing it would slow the download. I already sometimes pull files to the NAS at 600Mbit from 5G.
yeah, I'll get it tested via file transfer from G/bit PC to 5.0ghz + 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi, (bonded apparently), sounds like you're into similar stuff as me. questions hehe:
1) Is the Ai upscaler (for 1080p-to-4K I'm guessing) in real-time? and if so what unit is it?
2) why do you need to remux in MKVverge? do you rip your own 4K discs?
3) the USB on the SMartHub is fast too and I used it as a NAS temporarily with an external HDD plugged in - but I don't really need a NAS with DLNA and PLEX - funny because I always wanted one - but my TV's tech has erased that need.
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I think the reason its fine for me, is I dont use NAS as my primary storage, its for backups and archives. Thats it.
I still have TBs of storage in my pc.
If its been frequently accessed especially by multiple people I can for sure understand the desire for 2.5gbit (or even higher) access speeds.
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yeah, I'll get it tested via file transfer from G/bit PC to 5.0ghz + 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi, (bonded apparently), sounds like you're into similar stuff as me. questions hehe:
1) Is the Ai upscaler (for 1080p-to-4K I'm guessing) in real-time? and if so what unit is it?
2) why do you need to remux in MKVverge? do you rip your own 4K discs?
3) the USB on the SMartHub is fast too and I used it as a NAS temporarily with an external HDD plugged in - but I don't really need a NAS with DLNA and PLEX - funny because I always wanted one - but my TV's tech has erased that need.
1) No, but my ShieldTV can do that albeit they seem to have broken it so it causes stutter in the video which doesn't play nice with my TVs motion interpolation which I ALWAYS use. I can't stand 24fps, it hurts my eyes. In this case I'm referring to Topaz Video Enhance AI where especially if you're scrubbing to find a scene rather than the whole file, IO speed is relevant. Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEJVo2o6BOM
2) Sometimes yes, though I obtain files "from other places" where I will remove all audio tracks other than the best quality one and often the subtitles, because anything taking up space you don't need adds up over hundreds of files. Also after using Topaz Video Enhance you have to remux the audio back in.
3) Plex is awesome, its the only way I can watch a series and remember which episode I am on. I'm quality oriented so will use Bluray wherever possible, but remembering which disk I was on is a PITA. However I can't rip all my Bluray to the NAS as I'd need about twice the storage, and there's already over £1000 of HDDs in there. Then you have the backup drives.
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I think the reason its fine for me, is I dont use NAS as my primary storage, its for backups and archives. Thats it.
I still have TBs of storage in my pc.
If its been frequently accessed especially by multiple people I can for sure understand the desire for 2.5gbit (or even higher) access speeds.
agreed!
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1) No, but my ShieldTV can do that albeit they seem to have broken it so it causes stutter in the video which doesn't play nice with my TVs motion interpolation which I ALWAYS use. I can't stand 24fps, it hurts my eyes. In this case I'm referring to Topaz Video Enhance AI where especially if you're scrubbing to find a scene rather than the whole file, IO speed is relevant. Example: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eEJVo2o6BOM
2) Sometimes yes, though I obtain files "from other places" where I will remove all audio tracks other than the best quality one and often the subtitles, because anything taking up space you don't need adds up over hundreds of files. Also after using Topaz Video Enhance you have to remux the audio back in.
3) Plex is awesome, its the only way I can watch a series and remember which episode I am on. I'm quality oriented so will use Bluray wherever possible, but remembering which disk I was on is a PITA. However I can't rip all my Bluray to the NAS as I'd need about twice the storage, and there's already over £1000 of HDDs in there. Then you have the backup drives.
very interesting learning about Topaz Video Enhance AI , cheers.
I too get REMUXES off "friends"' - you can't beat them can you, 1:1 4K picture quality on a DV OLED. I used to mess about with MKVmerge back in my old transcoding days, I miss it, but my system whilst still a good spec is over 10 years old & transcoding just to DVD (SD) on this is 25 minutes+ (Intel i5 'Quad-Core' SandyBridge @ 4.6Ghz / 14GB DDR3 @ 1600Mhz / 1TB SSD Samsung 850 EVO system drive / 1GB GTX650 GPU / 3 x 2TB Internal HDDs / Noctua super cooler) - it does the trick for my use.
But I'm saving up extra, to upgrade the "guts" so i can get the new Intel 'big.LITTLE' chip, that has high-performance and low-performance cores (copied partially from smartphone chips made by ARM) and parts/specs such as DDR5 RAM, PCie4 NVMe SSD, 90+Gold PSU) so it has much lower energy use in low power mode, as my energy bills with one radiator on for about 1 hour per day, washer on once a fortnight, shower 3 x a week, is hitting £70-90 a month (its the GAS gone up 25% & electric 12% from the 1st November), single man too! and I work for most of the week too! all plugs in the house are OFF at the wall when I go out, so Im looking to buy low power devices from now on, the other day my bill was £4.50 for ONE DAY! - before anyone says..I've checked and according to all sites BRITISH GAS is still the cheapest for my area.
Plex is brilliant especially pulling all the data to go with the videos, its like Netflix isn't it but better! - personally, I've started going straight to DLNA as it seems to play more codecs than the PLEX app on the LG TV.
I too am coming to the peak of my storage lol... gunna have to get a big external drive on my SmartHub2 that'll do me.
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before anyone says..I've checked and according to all sites BRITISH GAS is still the cheapest for my area.
You're not going to find anyone cheaper at the moment, some may be on cheaper rates but they are not available to new customers, basically ALL utilities companies are selling electric and gas at a loss, the wholesale price is far more than what we are paying. It's only the Ofgem price cap, which is fixed until around April that's stopping them putting the costs up, hence why so many have gone bust recently, Bulb being the latest to go, with 1.7 million customers (https://www.moneysavingexpert.com/news/2021/11/energy-supplier-bulb-enters-special-administration---what-it-mea/).
PS. I'm up to 244TB of spinning storage, almost a quarter of a Petabyte
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PS. I'm up to 244TB of spinning storage, almost a quarter of a Petabyte
Yikes, and I thought my paltry 47.3TiB was a lot. I literally don't have the space (or the inclination to backup) more than that.
When I upgrade, it will have to be with larger capacity HDDs because the are only 4 bays in my NAS. That's always fun of course, the last time it took about three days to copy the contents from one drive to another because the capacity is outpacing the speed increases so much. Most people turn to RAID to compensate for that, but that's a whole other set of problems.
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I was recently checking out potential upgrades to AX on openwrt devices out of curiosity, and was looking at newer Archer devices, surprisingly not even their highest end has 2.5Gbps LAN ports. Consumer market seems to be dragging its feet.
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That or OpenWRT-compatible devices are dragging their feet. Consumer market may be very different given the vast majority of consumers have no interest in OpenWRT.
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Yikes, and I thought my paltry 47.3TiB was a lot. I literally don't have the space (or the inclination to backup) more than that.
When I upgrade, it will have to be with larger capacity HDDs because the are only 4 bays in my NAS. That's always fun of course, the last time it took about three days to copy the contents from one drive to another because the capacity is outpacing the speed increases so much. Most people turn to RAID to compensate for that, but that's a whole other set of problems.
Most of it's not backup, its taken up with Chia and Chive plots. I use Stablebit drive pool to duplicate the most important stuff locally, and I have a Synology NAS with about 12TB at my brothers, that's my off site back using Synology Drive.
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I was recently checking out potential upgrades to AX on openwrt devices out of curiosity, and was looking at newer Archer devices, surprisingly not even their highest end has 2.5Gbps LAN ports. Consumer market seems to be dragging its feet.
More annoying is a LOT of them still only have WiFi 4 on 2.4Ghz which negates a lot of the benefit WiFi 6 will have going forward, being able to use TDMA alongside neighbouring APs. Although how useful that will be when the majority of devices connecting on 2.4Ghz will remain WiFi 4 or older I do not know, perhaps their reasoning.