Kitz Forum

Broadband Related => FTTC and FTTP Issues => Topic started by: snadge on November 14, 2021, 03:38:08 PM

Title: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 14, 2021, 03:38:08 PM
Hi all,

firstly, I got my BT FTTP 900 installed and sorted and it's brilliant, even when using Nord's VPNs I'm hitting 300-400Mbps, trying ExpressVPN next month. my LG B8 OLED TV with its 100BASE-T NIC could only manage 93Mbps - but on 5Ghz Wi-Fi it was getting 300Mbps.... mobile is about the same and between 750-910Mbps download on the PC via G/Bit LAN, ping is between 10ms and 18ms ...happy days :)

secondly, my experience: when the linesman first arrived (it was a very young lad from M.J. QUINNS, and said he had been on a 2-week training course for it, and this was his third month in on the job.), he said he wasn't going to do it, because it was going to be 'time-consuming' coming in through the back of the flat, and they are "paid per job" (3-4 per day) and running along where the copper is was no option he said, and it was left in place as he didn't want to 'waste time' removing it, I said just run it through the kitchen (as an external wall JB is there), along the ceiling and down and into the stud wall, behind which is the router and plugs!!??

- so he rang his boss, while i worryingly rang the BT connections dept. who spoke to him and suggested pulling the fibre from a pole facing my living room, which he did, and it turned out to be a better prospect for both of us regarding the speed of the job for him, the cables are now very close to all LAN devices etc, the ONT is behind the TV of course to hide it, had the nosey neighbour downstairs asking him a million questions, such as "why did no one come out to install his fibre?" (could see the guys face drop like he was sick of explaining it hehe) - he explained it's the 'last mile is copper' to him - to which he very surprisingly didn't moan about, BUT asked who it was for (nosey bugger) and he told him.  I wouldn't be surprised if I got a letter from Bernicia Housing saying there has been a complaint!

So this leads me to some questions I'm hoping my fellow Kitizens can help me with?

1) How do you turn off the 'BT Wi-Fi Hot Spot' as I don't want ANYONE using my connection, I'm not bothered about using theirs on the go, i never would have.

2) is there a better router than the HH2, I still have the Zyxel VMG8924-B10A I used on Plusnet. but don't know if it's better than the home hub 2?

3) I would like a router that has AC/N Wi-Fi, but also allows you to try out 3rd party firmware, so you can get extra features, I'm after one that will let you run your choice of VPN through it.

thanks in advance
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: tubaman on November 14, 2021, 05:13:27 PM
1. Opting out of BT WiFi is easy enough - https://www.bt.com/help/broadband/how-do-i-opt-out-of-bt-wi-fi-
However saying that it can be quite useful when out and about and it's on a separate isolated SSID from your own so isn't an issue. It also gives priority to your usage so won't slow your connection.
2. You can use the Zyxel on the connection and if you did you wouldn't need to worry about the BT WiFi as it can't transmit it (and you could still use it when out and about if desired). Whether it's any better than the HH2 on a fibre connection depends on what you mean by 'better'. It's certainly more configurable but the wireless speed and range may not be quite as good.
3. I'll leave others to answer that one.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 14, 2021, 05:29:52 PM
1. Opting out of BT WiFi is easy enough - https://www.bt.com/help/broadband/how-do-i-opt-out-of-bt-wi-fi-
However saying that it can be quite useful when out and about and it's on a separate isolated SSID from your own so isn't an issue. It also gives priority to your usage so won't slow your connection.
2. You can use the Zyxel on the connection and if you did you wouldn't need to worry about the BT WiFi as it can't transmit it (and you could still use it when out and about if desired). Whether it's any better than the HH2 on a fibre connection depends on what you mean by 'better'. It's certainly more configurable but the wireless speed and range may not be quite as good.
3. I'll leave others to answer that one.

thanks, i got no. 1 done thanks, and got 12 month free Xbox pass which is good if you're a hardcore gamer (I'm not but own an Xbox One X)
yeah wifi isn't really an issue to me as i use LAN - only my phone uses wifi - so really its just something that will work with this connection and can give me all sorts of options like Port Triggering and the ability to run your choice of VPN on it so all devices are covered by it

edit: it has to have wifi 5 (ac) at least anyway (5Ghz)

cheers
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: meritez on November 14, 2021, 08:12:26 PM
3: Routers that are capable of handling 900/100 with WiFi.

There are other options if you're looking for mesh WiFi, but those would be my recommendations to start with.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Geekofbroadband on November 14, 2021, 09:07:48 PM
Asus routers are pretty good with Merlins firmware, I would avoid Netgear routers (Correct me if I'm wrong) they have issues with BT's type of IPV6
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 15, 2021, 09:22:45 AM
thanks guys will take a look - as i say fast wifi speed is not much of a 'want', other than i need 5Ghz AC on it - not bothered about wifi speed - just a good 1Gbit router with 3rd party FW and VPN abilities, and some port triggering for opening and closing ports on demand and anything else that may help - more options/abilities - the better
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on November 15, 2021, 09:37:28 AM
Well "more options" I'd possibly be looking at the fastest hardware you can find for OpenWRT or go for a pfSense appliance.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: g3uiss on November 15, 2021, 10:04:28 AM
You get a lot of options with a Draytec! 2927 series is worth a look. The VPN capabilities are really good.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Bowdon on November 15, 2021, 11:21:38 AM
I've not been able to figure out how to turn off the BT Wifi in recent years as the instructions on that page doesn't make sense. There is no 'Your Package', and I can't Manage BT Wifi. It's only got a button called Learn.

An easy way to not use it though is to use a different router, as its the BT Wifi is built in to the router. It's very poor that they don't let us toggle the option on the router ourselves. But I've no doubt making it difficult was part of their plan.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: licquorice on November 15, 2021, 11:29:50 AM
The reason you can't just toggle it on the router is because it is a network function, not just a matter of turning it off on the BT hub. I.e if you opt out you also have to be opted out of accessing hotspots with your account whilst out and about.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on November 15, 2021, 11:30:46 AM
To be fair BT WiFi is a clever idea to roll out roaming WiFi to almost everywhere.

I used it for about a month (http://csdprojects.co.uk/ping/show/alexatkin#fon) when they worked with FON (so I had a separate WiFi AP to opt-in from a third party ISP), especially when I lost 90Mbit VDSL and had to put up with slow ADSL for a while.  I even had a DG834 configured with OpenWRT that automatically logged into the network, that I used at a friends house who (back then) didn't have Internet access.

Was disconcerted though when they changed how it worked from using a tunnel (so traffic was completely independent of your own so you weren't accountable if someone used it for something illegal, it was tunneled to BTs network so could be accountable to who was logged in) to just plain routing (they claimed it was still accountable, but I had my doubts).
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: licquorice on November 15, 2021, 11:33:31 AM
What leads you to believe it isn't still tunneled?
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on November 15, 2021, 11:36:16 AM
What leads you to believe it isn't still tunneled?

It might be on BT Broadband, but they stopped doing so on FON.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: licquorice on November 15, 2021, 11:40:32 AM
Wouldn't know about FON, but it is still tunneled on BT broadband.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: j0hn on November 15, 2021, 02:24:21 PM
It might be on BT Broadband, but they stopped doing so on FON.

There's zero security implications allowing other BT customers to use the BT WiFi from your Hub.
Anyone accessing BT WiFi from someone else's BT hub gets their own dedicated IP.

It also only uses free bandwidth that you aren't using.
Priority is always given to the customer who's hub it is.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 15, 2021, 02:31:05 PM
You get a lot of options with a Draytec! 2927 series is worth a look. The VPN capabilities are really good.
thanks and Alex Atkins UK for your suggestions, mulling them over and googling when i find time

thanks again
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on November 15, 2021, 03:38:25 PM
It seemed clear at the time, they were basically winding down the whole "be a part of FON on any ISP" scheme.  I can't even find mention of the Fonera on their site any more.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 22, 2021, 11:17:49 AM
well, something has happened with my connection and I'm getting only about 60% of the bandwidth (its congestion according to TBB metrics at 2.5-3.5) which is quoted as poor and worse than using wi-fi

the first few days it was fine 700-900Mbps, but could average about 850Mbps with low 10ms pings - now I'm getting 600-700Mbps (extremely rare its higher than that) with 20-30ms pings across all speed tests and servers.

I've seen loads of FTTP tests on speedtest.net with 5ms pings and 900Mbps on the head which is expected with full-fibre - at least 850Mbps if 900 is the cap? (yet router says 1000Mbps lol)

any advice from anyone>?
thanks in advance
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: j0hn on November 22, 2021, 12:30:50 PM
I've seen loads of FTTP tests on speedtest.net with 5ms pings

Your latency is related to where in the country you are  The further from London, the higher the base latency.
I can't get 5ms on my FTTP without breaking the law of physics.
Ignore the latency you see others getting.

Some BT FTTP customers will get 940Mb/s 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Others top out around 890Mb/s and have never seen above 900Mb/s.
That's down to differences in OLT/L2S config.

Quote
900Mbps on the head which is expected with full-fibre

That isn't too be expected. You asked that very question before ordering and were told what to expect.
It's a residential service with a guarantee of 450Mb/s.

Quote
at least 850Mbps if 900 is the cap? (yet router says 1000Mbps lol)

The cap is 1000Mb/s.
Overheads mean the theoretical maximum you should see is around 942Mb/s.
As I mentioned above some Openreach/BT Wholesale config can limit this to around 890Mb/s for some customers.
The router reports the link speed between the ONT and routers gigabit Ethernet ports.

To be accurate you need to run a speed test from your BT account with the Smart Hub 2 connected. This tests the speed to the Hub alone, ruling out all of your hardware.
If that reports higher than you are seeing them you have a hardware/config issue.
BT won't entertain any complaints about speeds above 450Mb/s anyway.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 22, 2021, 02:24:20 PM
Your latency is related to where in the country you are  The further from London, the higher the base latency.
I can't get 5ms on my FTTP without breaking the law of physics.
Ignore the latency you see others getting.

Some BT FTTP customers will get 940Mb/s 24 hours a day, 7 days a week.
Others top out around 890Mb/s and have never seen above 900Mb/s.
That's down to differences in OLT/L2S config.

That isn't too be expected. You asked that very question before ordering and were told what to expect.
It's a residential service with a guarantee of 450Mb/s.

The cap is 1000Mb/s.
Overheads mean the theoretical maximum you should see is around 942Mb/s.
As I mentioned above some Openreach/BT Wholesale config can limit this to around 890Mb/s for some customers.
The router reports the link speed between the ONT and routers gigabit Ethernet ports.

To be accurate you need to run a speed test from your BT account with the Smart Hub 2 connected. This tests the speed to the Hub alone, ruling out all of your hardware.
If that reports higher than you are seeing them you have a hardware/config issue.
BT won't entertain any complaints about speeds above 450Mb/s anyway.

thanks for your input J0hn,

but what I'm also worried about is the Metric Score from TBB, which was 2.5-3.5 which states "is worse than using Wi-Fi, and indicative of congestion". and the fact ALL my TBB and Speedtests.net always top out at 600-700 shows this may be the case, if BT wants to supply GIGABIT services then they should be doing so, not giving themselves enough bandwidth to handle it is a job half done IMO.

I mean MGALS of HALF of your entire bandwidth is a bit crap compared to VDSL where I got 64Mbps my MGALS was 51Mbps (around 12% less than my sync rate)- so VDSL had about 12% less (on my connection) as MGALS, but for FTTP its a whopping 50% ..a bit much, yes i knew and agreed, but everyone told me on the BT forum and other forums that BT's FTTP was great n getting full whack 24/7 - I thought this must be because its Full-Fibre, the only time delays are caused by NICs in microseconds. And was told they block nothing and they do... even when using D.o.H encrypted DNS to Cloudflare I get the 404...turn on a VPN and bobs yer uncle - Plusnet did not do this and I was told "no blocks, no limits etc" and that it would be just like Plusnet but with 900Mbps speed and low ping.

I notice you say some get 940Mbps 24/7, whilst others will get around 890-900Mbps... which is what I'm asking for... it's a gigabit service, so should be gigabit speeds IMO. As I said it was super fast (900 24/4) the first 4 days, now its 600-700 constantly...that's congestion, and if so it will only get worse. I still have my copper line too.

I also noticed that BT dropped their 600 and 300 packages to 500 and 150 at the same prices, surely a bandwidth choice!

will continue regular testing to see if it's getting slower or faster...

cheers
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: j0hn on November 22, 2021, 02:57:02 PM
Quote
I also noticed that BT dropped their 600 and 300 packages to 500 and 150 at the same prices, surely a bandwidth choice!

BT have never had a 600Mb package.
It's always been 550/75 but sold as 500Mb/s.

They removed the 300Mb package from sale.

Anyone who told you to expect full speed 24/7 is an idiot.
BT don't promise that for good reason.

If you want full speed gigabit 24/7 guaranteed then it will cost about 5-10 times what you pay right now.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: bogof on November 22, 2021, 03:33:05 PM
I mean MGALS of HALF of your entire bandwidth is a bit crap compared to VDSL where I got 64Mbps my MGALS was 51Mbps (around 12% less than my sync rate)- so VDSL had about 12% less (on my connection) as MGALS, but for FTTP its a whopping 50% ..a bit much, yes i knew and agreed, but everyone told me on the BT forum and other forums that BT's FTTP was great n getting full whack 24/7 - I thought this must be because its Full-Fibre, the only time delays are caused by NICs in microseconds. And was told they block nothing and they do... even when using D.o.H encrypted DNS to Cloudflare I get the 404...turn on a VPN and bobs yer uncle - Plusnet did not do this and I was told "no blocks, no limits etc" and that it would be just like Plusnet but with 900Mbps speed and low ping.

I notice you say some get 940Mbps 24/7, whilst others will get around 890-900Mbps... which is what I'm asking for... it's a gigabit service, so should be gigabit speeds IMO. As I said it was super fast (900 24/4) the first 4 days, now its 600-700 constantly...that's congestion, and if so it will only get worse. I still have my copper line too.
Well, there's up to 30 properties sharing a single 2.5G link, so something has to give.  Personally I find it hard to grumble about even 450mbit/sec for consumer-level pricing...

...but you should check whether what you are seeing is somehow router or computer related, as I'd be betting on that before I was betting on congestion somewhere upstream.  You can do that by using a reasonable spec PC or laptop via a linux boot disc / USB stick, and connecting directly via gigabit ethernet to the ONT (you'll need to set up a direct PPPoE connection between the test machine and your ISP).

There's all kinds of software out there that plays loose and fast with barely documented Windows networking options that they shouldn't go near.  One example is Hamachi VPN, which was silently changing settings on my machines, making it impossible to hit anything like line speed.

Another device that can be useful for speed testing is the AppleTV4k - that can hit gigabit line rates using the OOKLA speed test application.

Good luck!
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: meritez on November 22, 2021, 03:54:37 PM
well, something has happened with my connection and I'm getting only about 60% of the bandwidth (its congestion according to TBB metrics at 2.5-3.5) which is quoted as poor and worse than using wi-fi

the first few days it was fine 700-900Mbps, but could average about 850Mbps with low 10ms pings - now I'm getting 600-700Mbps (extremely rare its higher than that) with 20-30ms pings across all speed tests and servers.

I've seen loads of FTTP tests on speedtest.net with 5ms pings and 900Mbps on the head which is expected with full-fibre - at least 850Mbps if 900 is the cap? (yet router says 1000Mbps lol)

any advice from anyone>?
thanks in advance

Remove the HH2, use a decent router.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 22, 2021, 04:07:52 PM
Well, there's up to 30 properties sharing a single 2.5G link, so something has to give.  Personally I find it hard to grumble about even 450mbit/sec for consumer-level pricing...

...but you should check whether what you are seeing is somehow router or computer related, as I'd be betting on that before I was betting on congestion somewhere upstream.  You can do that by using a reasonable spec PC or laptop via a linux boot disc / USB stick, and connecting directly via gigabit ethernet to the ONT (you'll need to set up a direct PPPoE connection between the test machine and your ISP).

There's all kinds of software out there that plays loose and fast with barely documented Windows networking options that they shouldn't go near.  One example is Hamachi VPN, which was silently changing settings on my machines, making it impossible to hit anything like line speed.

Another device that can be useful for speed testing is the AppleTV4k - that can hit gigabit line rates using the OOKLA speed test application.

Good luck!

well, for one, I'm using the connection on a high-end 8-core / 16GB / SSD machine - direct 1Gbit Full-Duplex LAN (5ft) into the router which is in a 5ft cable to the PON, the connection doesn't work directly into the modem, so it must be bridged in some way to the HH2 - i have my TCP/IP Stack optimized for Gigabit speeds (PPPoE) with a 1492 MTU and other optimizations - just done this now, but the result are the same.

Well, there's up to 30 properties sharing a single 2.5G link, so something has to give.


Had I known THAT then I may have re-considered - selling 900Mbps to people when 30 all share 2500Mbps is ludicrous in my book, as customers are all obviously getting Gigabit for that reason (wanting to download in Gigabit speeds - that's why we pay for it). Should be 5-10Gbps per 30 IMO.

Thanks for the router advice Meritez - its something I'm looking into - but not rushing as i want the right device, I've yet to find out the specs of the HH2...so I am gunna take a look now, faster 5Ghz may be better as my TV only has a 100Mbps NIC and 4K stutters on high bandwidth moments, on Wi-Fi, it's fine as it gets between 100-288Mbps to the TV (on the crappy speed test you get on an LG B8 OLED) and it almost touching the TV - literally - as the BT Linesman installed it all behind my TV.

edit: my tests were done at 4AM too... so should have been dead quiet almost - but got those results, especially the buffer-bloat

thanks for all the input guys and gals - I really do appreciate you teaching me everything, so please don't think I don't :) - especially you J0hn hehe

cheers
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: j0hn on November 22, 2021, 04:23:28 PM


Well, there's up to 30 properties sharing a single 2.5G link, so something has to give.


Had I known THAT then I may have re-considered - selling 900Mbps to people when 30 all share 2500Mbps is ludicrous in my book, as customers are all obviously getting Gigabit for that reason (wanting to download in Gigabit speeds - that's why we pay for it).

That's how pretty much all broadband works. It's contended in lots of different places. It's deliberately designed that way.
If they designed it with 1:1 contention then the costs would be eye watering.

FTTC is the exact same. A fibre cabinet has nowhere near enough bandwidth for everyone on the cabinet to max out their connections at the same time. Fortunately that's not how broadband works. People use their connections in bursts.

Quote
i have my TCP/IP Stack optimized for Gigabit speeds (PPPoE) with a 1492 MTU and other optimizations - just done this now, but the result are the same.

I'd recommend setting any TCP/IP changes you have made in your OS back to their default config.
There's no need to change such settings on a modern OS.

Try running the BT Speed test (https://www.bt.com/help/broadband/fix-a-problem/test-your-bt-broadband-speed) that's located in your My Account.
It will test the speed to the Smart Hub 2. If the speed to the Hub is good then it's an issue with hardware in the property.

If the Hubs build in speed test is still well below 900Mb/s then you know it's an issue outside your control.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on November 22, 2021, 04:26:41 PM
Had I known THAT then I may have re-considered - selling 900Mbps to people when 30 all share 2500Mbps is ludicrous in my book

It used to be a 50:1 contention ratio on ADSL, on FTTC the entire cabinet might only have a Gigabit backhaul, cable shares with the whole street, its literally the same for ALL consumer broadband connections and always has been.  If anything, its much better than it used to be.

The likelihood of your PON being fully subscribed, with everyone having the Gigabit service and maxing it out at the same time, is slim to none.  You're far more likely to be hitting contention elsewhere.

Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: bogof on November 22, 2021, 04:44:18 PM
well, for one, I'm using the connection on a high-end 8-core / 16GB / SSD machine - direct 1Gbit Full-Duplex LAN (5ft) into the router which is in a 5ft cable to the PON, the connection doesn't work directly into the modem, so it must be bridged in some way to the HH2 - i have my TCP/IP Stack optimized for Gigabit speeds (PPPoE) with a 1492 MTU and other optimizations - just done this now, but the result are the same.

Well, there's up to 30 properties sharing a single 2.5G link, so something has to give.


Had I known THAT then I may have re-considered - selling 900Mbps to people when 30 all share 2500Mbps is ludicrous in my book, as customers are all obviously getting Gigabit for that reason (wanting to download in Gigabit speeds - that's why we pay for it). Should be 5-10Gbps per 30 IMO.
The reality is in all but the most exceptionally loaded scenarios you will get your guaranteed.  But there are other options if you need to guarantee gig speeds - you just won't like the price.

To connect directly you need to have a PPPoE client on the computer -  MacOS AND Linux both have them, not sure if Windows does.  The PPPoE client sets up the connection to your ISP, much like the router does.

The Linux boot disc is a very good way to work out what is going on as the network behaviour is pretty much spot on for wired.  As a first step I would use a PPPoE client on Linux direct cable to the box, and see how that fares.  If it doesn't get above the rates then perhaps you are unlucky and are on a heavily contended network, a duff ONT, or perhaps you have a marginal fibre issue, though I think the latter is unlikely to fail in that way.

If it looks like it achieves close to line rate, then you can plug the ONT back into the router and connect the Linux box back up to the router, this time using DHCP.  See how that does. 

Finally you can then compare those results to what you see on Windows.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Chrysalis on November 22, 2021, 04:48:17 PM
Snadge I think lower contention ratio's can be got away with as speeds get higher and higher as things download faster, you very unlikely to see 30 people using their line at full tilt at the same time, also consider most customers are not going to be on the full speed products.

Realistically if you see full speed off peak and maybe a few hundred megs on peak without packet loss and jitter, thats going to be good enough.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 22, 2021, 05:05:29 PM
Snadge I think lower contention ratio's can be got away with as speeds get higher and higher as things download faster, you very unlikely to see 30 people using their line at full tilt at the same time, also consider most customers are not going to be on the full speed products.

Realistically if you see full speed off-peak and maybe a few hundred megs on peak without packet loss and jitter, thats going to be good enough.

I understand now & thanks a lot guys and gals now you have taught me.

- but still, at 4 am?! I could understand if it was daytime, i got up deliberately for the testing thinking it would be dead quiet at 4 am - funnily enough it happened to be worse during the night than during the day>? I live in a block of flats and I'm the first to get it in this block, direct to the property of course, as some flats have it installed in a manner that it is shared, at least i think they do.. and I didn't think on that not all FTTP connections would be 900Mbps, some are 50Mbps I believe? - I don't know if it's true, but do BT install FTTP for ALL connection speeds now?, and are other ISPs..? to get rid of Copper once and for all? (still got mine).

I reset the TCP/IP Stack - no difference, I used TCP Optimizer 4 - but not too worry as I understand the workings behind it now.
IPv6 seems to have cheered my Xbox up - everything is working it says, where on Plusnet there was no IPv6 and reported other issues (but it still worked)

cheers

Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on November 22, 2021, 05:45:29 PM
Yes, FTTP is intended to replace all the FTTC speed tiers.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: gt94sss2 on November 22, 2021, 05:46:11 PM
If you have the Home Hub directly connected to the ONT, you can run a network speedtest to the hub via the BT app to see what speeds are achieved.

Openreach are separately trialing https://www.ispreview.co.uk/index.php/2021/11/openreach-trial-fttp-broadband-speed-test-to-identify-faults.html

As others have said, don't worry about the PON - Openreach are trialling faster GPON / XG-PON solutions which they can rollout if the demand is there..

I don't know if it's true, but do BT install FTTP for ALL connection speeds now?, and are other ISPs..? to get rid of Copper once and for all? (still got mine)

Not yet, but that is the longer term plan. However, all the FTTC speed options are also on FTTP.

Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on November 22, 2021, 05:55:46 PM
Not yet, but that is the longer term plan. However, all the FTTC speed options are also on FTTP.

Actually this is already rolling out. https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/product-withdrawal/stop-sells-updates
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: gt94sss2 on November 22, 2021, 06:29:03 PM
Actually this is already rolling out. https://www.openreach.co.uk/cpportal/products/product-withdrawal/stop-sells-updates

Yes, the process has started at a handful of exchanges - Openreach need to wait until at 75% of addresses are enabled for Ultrafast and then give the industry 12 months notice..

Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on November 22, 2021, 06:47:17 PM
Yes, the process has started at a handful of exchanges - Openreach need to wait until at 75% of addresses are enabled for Ultrafast and then give the industry 12 months notice..

Not sure how 135 exchanges with 62 more the start of next year is "a handful".
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: j0hn on November 22, 2021, 07:50:24 PM
The process has started at quite a few exchanges but only a handful have hit the 75% coverage target.
That only triggers a 12 month notice for stop sell and a no go back on copper.

I'm not sure other than Salisbury if any exchange is actually FTTP only yet. Even Salisbury isn't 100% complete.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on November 23, 2021, 03:41:37 AM
The point is, its started.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Weaver on November 23, 2021, 04:47:59 AM
I find it incredible that the OP is moaning about 450 Mbps downstream, donít remember the upstream, but the downstream is 180 times faster than my copper lines (one, that is, not all three, so itís like-for-like, one link vs one link).

As earlier posters have suggested, order ethernet from eg AA (https://www.aa.net.uk/ethernet/) for £god knows (£900+ per month?) and you will have a full symmetric 1GBps or 10Gbps all day all night 24hrs, and then the speed you get will be limited by the ISP, maybe, by the wider internet, by servers at the far end and by the possibly inadequate speed of your own kit.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: tubaman on November 23, 2021, 08:10:05 AM
I find it incredible that the OP is moaning about 450 Mbps downstream, ...

I would be extremely happy with that speed too but I think the issue is more about how the service is marketed. Looking at BTs site for the 900Mbps service (https://www.bt.com/products/broadband/full-fibre-learn) it says "With Full Fibre (also known as FTTP) thereís no copper cable or sharing with your neighbours. Just speeds up to 25x faster than our standard fibre.". The 'no sharing' bit is highly misleading and suggests to me everyone can have 900Mbps all of the time, which we know cannot be true given the contended configuration of the system. It does also say "Speeds up to 900Mb, all the time", so we've got 'up to' and 'all the time' in the same sentence.
I'm sure their lawyers went over all of the wording so they can get around the awkward questions.  :no:

Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: meritez on November 23, 2021, 09:11:04 AM
I find it incredible that the OP is moaning about 450 Mbps downstream, donít remember the upstream, but the downstream is 180 times faster than my copper lines (one, that is, not all three, so itís like-for-like, one link vs one link).

As earlier posters have suggested, order ethernet from eg AA (https://www.aa.net.uk/ethernet/) for £god knows (£900+ per month?) and you will have a full symmetric 1GBps or 10Gbps all day all night 24hrs, and then the speed you get will be limited by the ISP, maybe, by the wider internet, by servers at the far end and by the possibly inadequate speed of your own kit.

You do not have to pay that much, how about £99 a month for symmetric 3GBps and 6 months free from Community Fibre in London https://communityfibre.co.uk/
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Weaver on November 23, 2021, 09:29:01 AM
I have no idea how much for example AA charges for ethernet over a leased line, but that is a BT product resold, I assume, so anyone who knows BTís prices could guide us here.

That community fibre sounds great, wonder what they have at the upstream end of it.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 23, 2021, 10:03:06 AM
Hi Guys & Gals  :)

I found a way to test your speed by testing via torrents on seedboxes ('paid for' servers holding the files - many on different servers with the exact same file - so tons of bandwidth available), i was able to draw 108MiB/s on a single torrent = 903Mbps almost constantly - between 65MiB/s-108MiB/s but if the bandwidth is available (seeders on seedboxes, or fast upload at home) it hits it. so that's good to know that if I can draw it, I will be given it, providing the server can supply such bandwidth. One thing I noticed most the speed/bandwidth came from IP's in The Netherlands, and they are quite close in terms of fibre.

I couldn't find the tester that J0hn mentioned in MY BT - can anyone guide me, please?

Also, I found on BT forums, a guy with the same response on speed testing BT900 with online speed tests, he has a chart showing he was the same getting 400-800 on tests for days, so decided to change his testing method, then the second half of his graph was 900 solid. He said "what changed?", he used 'Amazon S3 Buckets'?? to transfer files back and forth every day for testing and was hitting over 900 every single time. I dunno what those are so will google them.

just for those interested, here is a "screen-crop" of his chart: (credit to nino on BT forums) as you can see, on the 17th he changed it and it is solid.

(https://i.imgur.com/v7cQEiX.jpeg)

I've learned a lot in the last few days, its what I love about this website.

cheers
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 23, 2021, 10:29:23 AM
I find it incredible that the OP is moaning about 450 Mbps downstream, donít remember the upstream, but the downstream is 180 times faster than my copper lines (one, that is, not all three, so itís like-for-like, one link vs one link).

As earlier posters have suggested, order ethernet from eg AA (https://www.aa.net.uk/ethernet/) for £god knows (£900+ per month?) and you will have a full symmetric 1GBps or 10Gbps all day all night 24hrs, and then the speed you get will be limited by the ISP, maybe, by the wider internet, by servers at the far end and by the possibly inadequate speed of your own kit.

I respect you Weaver, so please don't take this the wrong way, but this is a typical response from someone who lives in rural, or has poor connectivity and only gets slow ADSL like speeds - yours is 5Mbps ADSL I'm guessing if it is 180 times slower than a BT900 PON connection - I feel your pain, it was a simple case of needing to learn more on the MO, and I have and have come to an understanding and thanked everyone on the topic for their help and advice both here and on BT forums, especially J0hn!

Im sure you won't be waiting long before you can get faster speeds, you must be miles away from the cabinet/exchange and out in the willy nillys are you?

cheers
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: stevebrass on November 23, 2021, 11:59:57 AM
In practical everyday experience terms, would anybody be aware of contention issues?
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Weaver on November 23, 2021, 01:34:30 PM
> this is a typical response from someone who lives in rural, or has poor connectivity and only gets slow ADSL like speeds - yours is 5Mbps ADSL I'm guessing

Agreed! I used the guaranteed figure of 450 Mbps and compared that with 2.5 Mbps downstream from one of my lines. I have three lines IP-bonded together, so actually enjoy about 7.6 Mbps downstream TCP payload throughput and about 0.9 Mbps upstream as reported by speedtest2.aa.net.uk. The upstream bonded efficiency should be a lot better than that at the moment, and I have moaned at AA in the past about debugging their own Firebrick FB2900 router in this regard. Upstream total should be about 1.2 Mbps or better.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 23, 2021, 05:45:59 PM
Hi everyone :)

I googled how to use MY BT speed test for BT900 FTTP (as I can't find the one J0hn mentions)- the first result was a post in the BTforums, it says BT recommends fast.com...hmm take a look at this - 1.2Gbps / 3ms to Leeds?

(https://i.imgur.com/iihi8rH.jpeg)

that can't be right surely...? went as high as 1.9Gbps?? and 3ms ping to Leeds, yet locally i get 20ms - it seems to me to be like a fake to keep people happy? because I have never drawn more than 910Mbps, that's the limit, and it is capped at 1000MBbps in the PON/Router.

Loaded goes up to 55ms when changed in settings "Measure loaded latency during upload" as seen below

(https://i.imgur.com/P7u5SXH.jpeg)

funny thing too! - on NordVPN on all speed tests i can get around 200-300Mbps - but on FAST.com it reports speeds in a few kilobits per second maybe jumping to 6-12Mbps then instantly back to 5-300Kbps - it ended on 450Kbps - even in UK servers? - turn it off and back up to 1.4Gbps within 2 seconds..!!

What's different about FAST that gives those odd-looking results?

can anyone explain that?
Thanks in advance

Cheers
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: burakkucat on November 23, 2021, 07:20:37 PM
What's different about FAST that gives those odd-looking results?

can anyone explain that?

Sorry, I can't answer your questions but here is another throughput speed tester for you to try --

https://speedtest.aa.net.uk/
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: j0hn on November 23, 2021, 07:46:31 PM
Try clicking this link here (https://www.bt.com/help/broadband/fix-a-problem/test-your-bt-broadband-speed).

That should hopefully take you straight to the BT Hub speed tester.

You'll need to log in then click on "i want to test my speed".
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 23, 2021, 08:58:30 PM
Try clicking this link here (https://www.bt.com/help/broadband/fix-a-problem/test-your-bt-broadband-speed).

That should hopefully take you straight to the BT Hub speed tester.

You'll need to log in then click on "i want to test my speed".


Cheers J0hn, it reports all is well at 930.8 down and 112.0 up, so that is a great tester for these BT FTTP PON connections so it seems, as its directly from the PON to DSLAM (and back), brilliant thanks for that.

(https://i.imgur.com/AioxhNB.jpeg)

however the speed test in the post before is pretty much useless for these speeds from the experience (200-600), but hey thanks for posting it anyway :)

thanks, guys & gals

EDIT: Just to add to that, now I understand the MO. I would be just as happy with it at 500-700 anyway, well at least 700 lol !
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 24, 2021, 09:01:31 AM
> this is a typical response from someone who lives in rural, or has poor connectivity and only gets slow ADSL like speeds - yours is 5Mbps ADSL I'm guessing

Agreed! I used the guaranteed figure of 450 Mbps and compared that with 2.5 Mbps downstream from one of my lines. I have three lines IP-bonded together, so actually enjoy about 7.6 Mbps downstream TCP payload throughput and about 0.9 Mbps upstream as reported by speedtest2.aa.net.uk. The upstream bonded efficiency should be a lot better than that at the moment, and I have moaned at AA in the past about debugging their own Firebrick FB2900 router in this regard. Upstream total should be about 1.2 Mbps or better.

Im a nosey sod, hehe - but 3 x xDSL balanced lines must not be cheap either to get that 2.5Mbps!! you must be paying more than me, so sorry for being "greedy" sounding, I can only imagine how despairing it must be to have to pay A&A x 3 to get 2.5Mbps - I see you have 7KM lines!!! bloody surprised a connection even gets there!!

Is there any news for your area for upgrades with Openreach or Virgin soon or in the future?

Slightly offtopic: Virgin's FTTP is only FTTP to the outside of the customer's building, where it is sent into a "converting node" on the external wall that turns it back into DOCSIS3 over copper in the home, so internal electrical interference could affect your gigabit speeds with Virgin, especially if that DOCSIS cable is a long run through the house... possibility anyway I think
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: j0hn on November 24, 2021, 10:35:24 AM
Slightly offtopic: Virgin's FTTP is only FTTP to the outside of the customer's building, where it is sent into a "converting node" on the external wall that turns it back into DOCSIS3 over copper in the home, so internal electrical interference could affect your gigabit speeds with Virgin, especially if that DOCSIS cable is a long run through the house... possibility anyway I think[/i]

Virgins FTTP is still FTTP though.

They will be changing to external boxes in the next couple years and upgrading to XGS-PON.

Interference on a few meters of coax will do diddly squat to the signal.

Weaver has Openreach FTTP coming around 2026 as part of the Scottish government R100 programme.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Chrysalis on November 24, 2021, 04:53:53 PM
The amount of speed complaints I see on the net from people using wifi, power plugs etc. I can see now why speedtesters are been implemented on the devices themselves now.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Weaver on November 25, 2021, 01:01:48 AM
Three DSL lines are not cheap, but the result is incredible reliability as if one goes down for even a few seconds, traffic is switched over to the good lines straight away. Used to be four lines, which was even less cheap, but I had a couple die a death on me last summer, couldnít get enough good new lines and ended up reducing it back down to three. I used to pay a small amount per copper line and a separate amount for traffic according to what I needed; that was very expensive for daytime traffic. Now Iíve changed to all you can eat traffic up to a max of 5TB in a month. Quota currently remaining is 4.82 TB across all three lines combined.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 25, 2021, 01:16:27 AM
The amount of speed complaints I see on the net from people using wifi, power plugs etc. I can see now why speed testers are been implemented on the devices themselves now.

yes, that was a great test on the MY BT page (thanks j0hn) as it cut out all the "internet" basically, and tested directly from device to the exchange and back, so not even the pod or cab, but the exchange (which is better news then using CABS or PODS instead), as it would be much less accurate. So direct to the exchange is perfect, beyond that is beyond most peoples control now in terms of testing - to manny testing, cant supply the bandwidth too many variables now - even on VDSL, I had to find a good server that reflected true results!!
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 25, 2021, 01:29:32 AM
Three DSL lines are not cheap, but the result is incredible reliability as if one goes down for even a few seconds, traffic is switched over to the good lines straight away. Used to be four lines, which was even less cheap, but I had a couple die a death on me last summer, couldnít get enough good new lines and ended up reducing it back down to three. I used to pay a small amount per copper line and a separate amount for traffic according to what I needed; that was very expensive for daytime traffic. Now Iíve changed to all you can eat traffic up to a max of 5TB in a month. Quota currently remaining is 4.82 TB across all three lines combined.

Yeah I know it isn't cheap from when you told me last, mind 5TB IS a lot though, but in fairness, I think given in faith given the fact it would probably be IMPOSSIBLE for you to reach anywhere near it- i very rare hit 1TB and Im HEAVY user, like I download the odd "REMUXES" of old Re-Mastered 4K/HDR movies that are up to a whopping 90GB in Size (3hrs - Lawrence Of Arabia  - too many vista shots to show off the 70MM film and specially made lenses to go with it too - just for that film only, hehe - great for us now though.) - would take you years to download that!! it IS the biggest sized movie I have...and it can only be watched via USB! (100Mbps NIC / iffy Wi-Fi for such high bandwidth)

Surely is there nothing else between NOW and 2026 for FTTP? get your neighbours to form a committee and complain!
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on November 25, 2021, 01:56:44 AM
yes, that was a great test on the MY BT page (thanks j0hn) as it cut out all the "internet" basically, and tested directly from device to the exchange and back, so not even the pod or cab, but the exchange (which is better news then using CABS or PODS instead), as it would be much less accurate. So direct to the exchange is perfect, beyond that is beyond most peoples control now in terms of testing - to manny testing, cant supply the bandwidth too many variables now - even on VDSL, I had to find a good server that reflected true results!!

FTTP goes directly back to the exchange, the closest it may go to a CAB is an aggregation node as the CAB will connect to a different fibre in the bundle there.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Weaver on November 25, 2021, 06:31:26 AM
> Surely is there nothing else between NOW and 2026 for FTTP?
Long story.

>get your neighbours to form a committee and complain!

Most only care about spending the minimum amount of money, not about quality or reliability, although some complain bitterly when they lose their internet access for days/weeks. Many use the local long-distance wireless network, very cheap.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 25, 2021, 08:48:24 AM
> Surely is there nothing else between NOW and 2026 for FTTP?
Long story.

>get your neighbours to form a committee and complain!

Most only care about spending the minimum amount of money, not about quality or reliability, although some complain bitterly when they lose their internet access for days/weeks. Many use the local long-distance wireless network, very cheap.

what a shame!
 - what's the wireless option? and why have you chosen to avoid it?
- and what about STARLINK? (musks internet) they are 200 up & down on some I've seen!! can't you apply for that, i know of some in the rural UK who have it.

notice I removed my speed test result from my sig, after our discussions I've realised its an "in-yer-face" to people like yourself, I noticed everyone else has a simple sig too, so didn't want to be odd one out. haha
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Weaver on November 25, 2021, 09:10:06 AM
I donít know much about the wireless network, but the nth hand rumours I hear are that it is very unreliable, with no guaranteed fix time. The system ought to be really slow, again rumour, because itís - guess 5Mbps - shared between dozens of users.

I value reliability more than speed. Also you may not know that Iím almost entirely confined to my bed, because of ME/CFS, chronic pain and the effects of very powerful pain drugs. So I canít go in for speculative setup work to find out if some untried system is going to work. Also I like my current ISP and need their powerful support. This is a long story which you can read about discussed to death in previous threads where I have been shouted at because my priorities, needs and abilities are not the same as those of others.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 25, 2021, 09:30:20 AM
I donít know much about the wireless network, but the nth hand rumours I hear are that it is very unreliable, with no guaranteed fix time. The system ought to be really slow, again rumour, because itís - guess 5Mbps - shared between dozens of users.

I value reliability more than speed. Also you may not know that Iím almost entirely confined to my bed, because of ME/CFS, chronic pain and the effects of very powerful pain drugs. So I canít go in for speculative setup work to find out if some untried system is going to work. Also I like my current ISP and need their powerful support. This is a long story which you can read about discussed to death in previous threads where I have been shouted at because my priorities, needs and abilities are not the same as those of others.

Respect!
and sorry to hear of your ME, I know people with it and know it can be anything from always heavy fatigued to completely crippled in pain, I have Serious liver issues and serious mental health problems (from a very extreme traumatic childhood/youth - not ashamed to admit it)

Stability is what you need as you say, you need as little to deal with as possible.

I hope the medications at least relieve some of the pain, I myself am on two medications for life, with quarterly hospital visit check-ups after a successful 3rd treatment (with real nasty dangerous new drugs with black box warnings, 2nd one almost killed me!) at resolving my liver problem, but 20 years of it and I'm not feeling better.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 25, 2021, 01:41:56 PM
thanks guys will take a look - as i say fast wifi speed is not much of a 'want', other than i need 5Ghz AC on it - not bothered about wifi speed - just a good 1Gbit router with 3rd party FW and VPN abilities, and some port triggering for opening and closing ports on-demand and anything else that may help - more options/abilities - the better

Actually, Wi-Fi speed IS a factor now, because even with the SmartHub (not HomeHub as I've been incorrectly calling it) just 3 inches away from the TV; it goes from 50-180 (but the tester is absolute garbage) and on that 5Ghz a 4K Video (a remux -so it has ultra-high bitrates, well over 100Mbps on fast scenes - average 65Mbps), this is streaming from PLEX to TV, or DLNA to TV.

I've read that it's meant to be able to use 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz together Bonded for higher speeds? is this true?, but I've never seen it happen yet, although the SM2 does NOT allow you to split the channels (whilst both broadcasting, unlike other routers I've had) - it can only be both on or one on, so I turned BOTH on now, and i will keep an eye on it.

EDIT: I suppose I could use DLNA somehow on a file transfer to the TV's storage/USB for real Wi-Fi-to-TV speed results
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on November 25, 2021, 11:42:09 PM
I've read that it's meant to be able to use 2.4Ghz and 5Ghz together Bonded for higher speeds? is this true?

I seem to recall they've been talking about that since WiFi 5 but AFAIK nothing has ever implemented it.

As for bitrates, I don't know about yours but my TV specifically points out its not compatible with high bitrates anyway.  It falls over well before it hits the limit of its 100Mbit ethernet port.

I long since switched to a ShieldTV as its the closest thing to a reliable DLNA/Plex streaming box, every other box, TV and games console I've owned would fail on things like Bluray rips.  The ShieldTV even works on Dolby Vision.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 26, 2021, 09:22:28 AM
I seem to recall they've been talking about that since WiFi 5 but AFAIK nothing has ever implemented it.

As for bitrates, I don't know about yours but my TV specifically points out its not compatible with high bitrates anyway.  It falls over well before it hits the limit of its 100Mbit ethernet port.

I long since switched to a ShieldTV as its the closest thing to a reliable DLNA/Plex streaming box, every other box, TV and games console I've owned would fail on things like Bluray rips.  The ShieldTV even works on Dolby Vision.

yeah hence me using 5Ghz Wi-Fi 3 inches away from the rear of the LG B8, I'll DLNA test it in free time at weekend
terrible - a £2000 4K OLED TV with a real HDR10 Panel (90% are fake HDR10 with 8 Bit+Frame Rate Control+ noise insertion and all sorts), Dolby Vision / HDR / HLOG / Technicolour support - and... a 100Mbit LAN  -ON a high-end 4k TV!!   just glad I bought it in 2019 for £1200 as it was the previous years flagship series (lowest end of the highest tier of consumer TV in the world - pic quality is same, just different specs)

The fastest i had over the tester before issues were 280Mbps and tester was rubbish

and yeah, beside my PC and Internet - that TV is also my pride and joy hehe single life!
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on November 26, 2021, 08:17:43 PM
Yeah mine is the C8, Netflix, Amazon, etc are great on it - Plex is probably better than any other TV I've owned, but its still limited compared to Android based devices.

Although a big reason I stopped using the TV was audio, you can't get lossless audio or DTS out of the TV.  This is licensing BS, you have to pay DTS for a license to even passthrough the audio untouched and LG got fed up and decided not to do so after the C7 I believe.

The ShieldTV supports everything.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 27, 2021, 02:47:46 PM
Yeah mine is the C8, Netflix, Amazon, etc are great on it - Plex is probably better than any other TV I've owned, but its still limited compared to Android based devices.

Although a big reason I stopped using the TV was audio, you can't get lossless audio or DTS out of the TV.  This is licensing BS, you have to pay DTS for a license to even passthrough the audio untouched and LG got fed up and decided not to do so after the C7 I believe.

The ShieldTV supports everything.

I found that using the DLNA option was nearly always better, and here's why:

- the LG B8 seemed to be playing more codecs than the PLEX app from the LG store!! some 4K video and some audio wouldn't play from the PLEX app, when that happens, I jump straight into DLNA and it plays instantly (most of the time I'm pretty sure, without having to remux the audio at the PC via Plex before its sent over the DLNA server, which is a separate process from the actual Plex Server Process) as Im sure sending as DLNA sends the whole file to the TV, and IT has to deal with both codecs, it ALWAYS says 'AUDIO NOT SUPPORTED'... but it does  ;) (lossless or lossy - I dont care it sounds fantastic) I have a Logitech 5.1 hooked up to it via fibre, rarely it's in a different language, and if it IS, you just hit the 3 dots on the far right, then next options move to the far left and change the audio to the next channel (English) - but rarely I do that - it seems to me that MY B8 (at least) can play more codecs than the PLEX app directly anyway... a lot of the time i just go straight to DLNA.

Ive had ONE that didn't play the picture from DLNA or PLEX so 'dodgy encode'.

as I've said before the biggest 4K file I have is 90GB Lawrence Of Arabia in 70MM to 4K (no DV or HDR though) - before my current setup (BT900 5Ghz right behind the TV), i could only play THAT on a USB device lol.

I also have a super rare 4K version of The Hateful 8 (Tarantino) - it hasn't been remastered for the 4K consumer disc yet, but I got it. And I "Pixel-Peeped" it to 400% against a 1:1 full-HD copy to make sure it was 100% real 4K, and it most certainly was...it can be seen extended in 4K online (Netflix USA), but that's not where I got mine!

I have about 24 x 4K discs I've ripped myself too (Remuxed off the discs, so the picture quality is 1:1 Identical) and also use Netflix and MagellanTV (documentaries for learning) - I loathe Apple TV and Amazon Prime - why?
1) they have adverts before whatever starts
2) they BOTH still make you RENT (£5) or BUY movies that came out in the 1990s, some of which are on YouTube for free, most have been on TV about 6 times for free.. and on Netflix for Free!!!

Why do you think they are the richest companies in the world! (Apple 1st and Amazon 4th)
- and Apple's prices - £999.99 for 4 wheels for iMac Pro...anyone paying that doesn't need help from anyone! except maybe a psychologist, after thousands of complaints, they reduced it to £600, 4 tiny little wheels 2 inches in size! so yes I loathe Apple as a company - iPhones all look the same just bigger, slightly better spec, all the same icons still to this day with zero GUI element management or anything...£2000 on o2 for 3 years!!! a small car that!

yeah the only thing i dont like about the B8 is the lack of access to the full Google Play Store... like my sister's 10yr old sony 1080p 65" LCD, because you could do so much more on/with your TV
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on November 28, 2021, 01:48:45 AM
You're probably right, I seem to recall having to fall back to DLNA sometimes when I used the TV for playback.

Once I went lossless audio though, I struggle to go back.  Netflix movies in particular sound really flat compared to the Bluray.  But I also splurged on about £1000 of speakers a couple of years back which made it even more obvious.  Even before the pandemic I spent 99% of the time in the house, I needed something to stop me going more insane.

Yeah Sony TVs run Android, though even on the ShieldTV you don't get full access to the play store as its just a small subset of apps that are written to work on AndroidTV.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 29, 2021, 01:49:08 PM
You're probably right, I seem to recall having to fall back to DLNA sometimes when I used the TV for playback.

Once I went lossless audio though, I struggle to go back.  Netflix movies in particular sound really flat compared to the Bluray.  But I also splurged on about £1000 of speakers a couple of years back which made it even more obvious.  Even before the pandemic I spent 99% of the time in the house, I needed something to stop me from going more insane.

Yeah, Sony TVs run Android, though even on the ShieldTV you don't get full access to the play store as its just a small subset of apps that are written to work on AndroidTV.

yeah i'd love to have on my B8:-

A 1Gbit NIC and the full Google Play Store - then it would have been 100% perfect - oh and there have been firmware issues since v. 4.x.x with poor black levels if you want good detail and highlights, which may still be ongoing on v5.x.x (I've not been on AVforums in over a year to find out)

I find manually changing the 'standard' option to give the most natural-looking picture with good blacks - especially in Dolby Vision (I remove all warm and cold from all the options as it's not natural) - I also can not live without Motion Interpolation..its a must with OLEDs due to their super high refresh rate, as the flicker stands out even more than regular LCD's, LED's and QLED's - I've advised those (like my dad) who hate it, to turn it on 40-50% as it will reduce flicker but not make too "realistic" for you... a lot of people HATE M.I. (soap opera effect) as it's too realistic looking and subconsciously brings them OUT of the movie/program - to me, it looks brilliant and how it should be seen & why most TV's now has it as an option.

A lot of directors are for higher frame rates (just the bandwidth is too much in most cases), i saw all THE HOBBIT movies in High Frame Rate (48fps) 3D IMAX (brilliant) - your eyes don't work at 24fps do they lol - I studied on it, eyes actually work more up to 1000Hz equivalent to a TV, but in "real-world" experiments they say a young person with 20/20 perfect vision won't notice anything higher than 300fps.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on November 29, 2021, 02:31:45 PM
Ah, someone else who realises soap opera effect is actually that it looks more realistic.

Its rather like 3D and VR, it feels odd at first because your brain isn't used to it.  As I never went the cinema much, I never got used to 24fps so the higher the better IMO as I'm more used to "real life".  :lol:

I mean I get it when people argue that it allows you to see the effects works more clearly and notice its fake, fair point.  But for me that never pulls me out of experience, I actually LIKE being able to see everything more clearly so I can truly appreciate everything that is going on the background that you normally cannot see clearly.

To me the whole point of the cinema, TV, movies, was supposed to feel like you are looking through a window into another world - not a flickering juddery mess.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 29, 2021, 02:48:20 PM
Ah, someone else who realises soap opera effect is actually that it looks more realistic.

Its rather like 3D and VR, it feels odd at first because your brain isn't used to it.  As I never went the cinema much, I never got used to 24fps so the higher the better IMO as I'm more used to "real life".  :lol:

I mean I get it when people argue that it allows you to see the effects works more clearly and notice its fake, fair point.  But for me that never pulls me out of experience, I actually LIKE being able to see everything more clearly so I can truly appreciate everything that is going on the background that you normally cannot see clearly.

yeah...also, the "edge artefacts" are about 0.001% (almost unnoticeable, only by those who know how the tech works and what to look for!!) of what you see on screen during an entire movie. and LG's OLED series Motion Interpolation is almost perfect from what I've seen on other brands!!

for example, before i had my OLED I had an LG 32LH300 LCD (still got it! 13 years old, works perfectly) and had I had to use MI software on my PC to play it on the TV at 60fps, and it was good but the edge blurring was huge/bad, but i still preferred it, with the odd artefact (very rare) and have ultra-smooth playback, than have it flicker really badly so there is no 'very rare' artefact.

and it's not really fake in a way, yes 50% of the frames are computed, but they are just replicated with slight differences - what it is Alex is that they just do not like it because they have been used to 24/25/30 fps (depending where you live and what you watch) -for 10-40 years of viewing that (depending on age), they feel uneasy when they see 60fps..!! it brings them OUT the illusion of the movie they say.. to realistic  :lol:

remember 3:2 pulldown haha, that was even worse IMO.

edit: totally agree with the window thing, James Cameron said that 3D provided a 'window', and thought that HFR (High-Frame-Rate) was like removing the glass from window..or some similar comment that he and another big Director loved higher FPS.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on November 29, 2021, 03:02:05 PM
For the record I "think" the OLEDs interpolate to 120fps as the panels are 120Hz native, so its making up 5/6 of the frames.  Its really quite amazing when you think of it like that especially when its often having to upscale content to 4K too at the same time, so its making up the vast majority of the image on the screen.

I've used Topaz Video Enhance AI to pre-process some videos up to 60fps and when you see just how wrong most of the frames are, its really bizarre how when you play it back it still looks better because you're only able to make out a certain amount of the temporal data.  It seems your brain makes up the difference to some extent due to what it expects to see.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 29, 2021, 03:09:54 PM
For the record I "think" the OLEDs interpolate to 120fps as the panels are 120Hz native, so its making up 5/6 of the frames.  Its really quite amazing when you think of it like that especially when its often having to upscale content to 4K too at the same time, so its making up the vast majority of the image on the screen.

I've used Topaz Video Enhance AI to pre-process some videos up to 60fps and when you see just how wrong most of the frames are, its really bizarre how when you play it back it still looks better because you're only able to make out a certain amount of the temporal data.  It seems your brain makes up the difference to some extent due to what it expects to see.

it's actually 60Hz for me (I don't know about the C8 but almost sure its the same), only HDMI 2.0 too (no HDMI2.1 which allows up to 120Hz@4K), because the OLED can only do 120Hz in 1080p mode, so if you're watching 4K interpolated it would be at 60Hz/fps - it tells you on the TV specs if you look at various sellers - 4K@60Hz or 1080p@120Hz

either way its brilliant, love it and so happy i got it and a bloody good one too...haha, mines the smallest 55" - what size is your C8?

EDIT: this topic has gone off-topic now - i won't be surprised if it gets split if it goes on any longer hehe - i know i ran the exact same SMF forum software years ago
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: burakkucat on November 29, 2021, 03:31:47 PM
EDIT: this topic has gone off-topic now - i won't be surprised if it gets split if it goes on any longer hehe

I've said nothing, as you are the originator of this topic.  ;)

However, if you would like it to be split up, then let me know which posts to split off, the new topic name and where to locate the new topic.
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 29, 2021, 03:33:31 PM
I've said nothing, as you are the originator of this topic.  ;)

However, if you would like it to be split up, then let me know which posts to split off, the new topic name and where to locate the new topic.

Im fine, whatever you thinks best BK :)
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: snadge on November 29, 2021, 06:34:12 PM
BT have never had a 600Mb package.


I think you will find you are actually incorrect on that part J0hn, as I went to order BT900 before the change and it was 300 -600 -900, but then put if off as I wasn't sure if I should go for the top one, so a few weeks later, at the EXACT same prices, the speeds were 150 - 500 - 900 = £35 - £45 -£55 respectively (note: without landline)
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: Alex Atkin UK on November 30, 2021, 06:39:49 AM
it's actually 60Hz for me (I don't know about the C8 but almost sure its the same), only HDMI 2.0 too (no HDMI2.1 which allows up to 120Hz@4K), because the OLED can only do 120Hz in 1080p mode, so if you're watching 4K interpolated it would be at 60Hz/fps - it tells you on the TV specs if you look at various sellers - 4K@60Hz or 1080p@120Hz

either way its brilliant, love it and so happy i got it and a bloody good one too...haha, mines the smallest 55" - what size is your C8?

https://www.rtings.com/tv/reviews/lg/c8-oled#comparison_10110
The panel is 4K 120Hz (the 9 and X series use the same panel but newer SoC and HDMI), its only HDMI that limits input to 60Hz input.  If you look at the spec sheet it can actually play back HEVC 10bit files at 120fps. (that was the B8 spec sheet)  The panel was only upgraded on the 2021 series and even there possibly only on the top-end models.

This is also used if you enable black frame insertion (that gives me a major headache) as it will display a frame of a video, a frame of nothing, a frame of video, thus 60fps but the panel is refreshing at 120Hz.

My C8 is also 55".
Title: Re: BT 900 installed, experiences and questions
Post by: j0hn on December 01, 2021, 02:58:11 AM
I think you will find you are actually incorrect on that part J0hn, as I went to order BT900 before the change and it was 300 -600 -900, but then put if off as I wasn't sure if I should go for the top one, so a few weeks later, at the EXACT same prices, the speeds were 150 - 500 - 900 = £35 - £45 -£55 respectively (note: without landline)

You're definitely recalling that incorrectly.
BT have never had a 600Mb package
Openreach have never had a package that could be sold as 600Mb.

Every FTTP package Openreach have ever sold is listed on the Openreach FTTP Price List (https://www.openreach.co.uk/orpg/home/products/pricing/loadProductPriceDetails.do?data=SjLGnN8O1mzybN7g39pZiNKvrleClYZjBLZ4w%2FibaalZ6rNZujnCs99NbIKJZPD9hXYmiijxH6wrCQm97GZMyQ%3D%3D).
There's nothing in-between 550Mb (sold as 500Mb by BT) and 1000Mb (sold as 900Mb by BT)

The only way an ISP could sell 600Mb over Openreach FTTP would be to buy the 1000/115 product from Openreach and rate limit it to 650Mb to meet OFCOM advertising rules.

A search of the forum gives around a dozen threads discussing the BT 500Mb package going back to at least 2019.
Here's just 1 example (https://forum.kitz.co.uk/index.php/topic,24753.msg416256.html#msg416256).
You won't find any for BT 600Mb.

BT still sell a 500Mb package that is based on the Openreach 550/75 tier.
It hasn't changed from 600Mb, though it has come and gone from sale in their site quite a few times.